Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:35, 30 August 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Transgender rights in the United Kingdom article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 2 months

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors Discrimination This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Gender studies Mid‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention Human rights Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies Law Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics of the United Kingdom Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. United Kingdom Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Hormone replacement therapy

@Raladic: according to our article on Hormone replacement therapy, Hormone replacement therapy (HRT), also known as menopausal hormone therapy or postmenopausal hormone therapy, is a form of hormone therapy used to treat symptoms associated with female menopause. Also, the headnote says: For transgender applications, see Transgender hormone therapy.

This is confirmed by the NHS website on this subject: which says: About hormone replacement therapy (HRT) - Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) is a treatment used to help menopause symptoms. It replaces the hormones oestrogen and progesterone, which fall to low levels as you approach the menopause.

You have reverted to a version of our article which says: Despite this, on 21 March 2024, NHS England announced that it would prescribe hormone replacement therapy to children age 16 and older. This is plainly wrong and makes no sense whatever. You should self-revert. Sweet6970 (talk) 22:25, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and as I explained in the edit summary, HRT for Transgender people is also called HRT, as outlined as in the disambiguation right on top of Hormone replacement therapy and the lead of Transgender hormone therapy - Transgender hormone therapy, also called hormone replacement therapy (HRT).

Two other separate editors have made this change here and here and you have reverted both of them (,) and I undid your second reversion after agreeing with the other editors as editing Misplaced Pages is based on consensus, which on the topic of transgender HRT is clear that that is the common term. Raladic (talk) 23:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

As I have demonstrated above, the usual meaning of ‘Hormone replacement therapy’ refers to a treatment for menopausal women. That the expression may sometimes be used to refer to treatment for transgender people is irrelevant – our article should not use the term ‘Hormone replacement therapy’ in an obscure way. The general public reading our article will wonder why young people are being given a treatment which is used for menopausal women. You should self-revert. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, @Sweet6970. The hormones given are not replacing but supplementing so referring to the treatment as HRT can only be misleading. It would be far less confusing and more neutral to simply refer to 'hormone treatment'. Zeno27 (talk) 15:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Sweet6970 and Zeno27 and Void if removed and -DanielRigal: That the phrase HRT should not be used because it is misleading in the case of under 18s, and is not used in the source article. Peckedagain (talk) 13:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The citation says:

• cross-sex hormones (5 times)
• gender-changing hormones (twice)
• masculinising or feminising hormones
• hormone treatment (twice)
• GAH (for gender affirming hormones) (4 times)

I can't see a reference to "hormone replacement therapy", which seems to be a misnomer - the actual NHS statements quoted by this source and in the NHS announcement itself say "gender affirming hormones".

Given the WP:COMMONNAME of the linked article is "Transgender hormone therapy", if for some reason you're not following how the source words it I don't see why shortening that to "hormone therapy" is an issue, but if there's no agreement for that I'd say stick to the sources (in this case, the NHS, which this section is about), in which case its more appropriate to say "gender affirming hormones". Void if removed (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Is this section worth deleting, as now superceded by time? -Proposed reforms in 2022

Certainly a good case can be made that the Reuters 'leaked document' can be deleted, as the actual NHS docs were published.

Regards the 2022 NHS documents and the comments on them and WPATH response the current situation has changed since the CASS review and responses to that this year: so what do people think about the 2022 content? Leave in as historic facts? Or delete?Peckedagain (talk) 14:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I would support the deletion of the whole of the section ‘Proposed reforms in 2022’, as this has been overtaken by events. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with the deletion, it's redundant and incomplete, and any attempt to try and give a complete, balanced rendering of this policy development would be pointless trivia and overlong. Void if removed (talk) 08:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I’d leave it in, but heavily shorten it to only a couple of sentences. Say,

“Previous reforms considered included banning the provision of gender affirming care outside of the NHS, banning those who receive such care from later receiving it from the NHS, and recommending the initiation of ‘safeguarding protocols’ against said patients.” Snokalok (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I think this proposed summary is too sweeping, and I would rather keep the existing wording than use it. But I would still prefer to delete the whole section. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it helps contextualize things, so shortening and summarizing it will be helpful, rather than outright deletion of historic information. Raladic (talk) 14:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

There is currently a majority for deletion, so if there are no other responses, I shall delete the entire section. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd prefer @Snokalok & @Raladic's general proposal, it's better to shorten information then to outright delete it. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I disagree - I advocate deletion of it all.

@Void if removed has stated very succinctly IMHO the basis for deleting all. Peckedagain (talk) 21:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Articles copy edited by the Guild of Copy Editors
• C-Class Discrimination articles
• Unknown-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• C-Class Gender studies articles
• Mid-importance Gender studies articles
• WikiProject Gender studies articles
• C-Class Human rights articles
• Mid-importance Human rights articles
• WikiProject Human rights articles
• C-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
• C-Class law articles
• Low-importance law articles
• WikiProject Law articles
• C-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• Mid-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• C-Class United Kingdom articles
• Mid-importance United Kingdom articles
• WikiProject United Kingdom articles