| Revision as of 00:46, 24 April 2007 editYamamoto Ichiro (talk | contribs)47,174 editsm Reverted edits by 69.19.14.27 (talk) to last version by MIP← Previous edit | Revision as of 10:05, 24 April 2007 edit undoRoserwilson (talk | contribs)76 edits →Status of the UntouchablesNext edit → | ||
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| Apparently the Untouchables live on the outskirts of villages because "they eat shit". Erm.... ] 10:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC) | Apparently the Untouchables live on the outskirts of villages because "they eat shit". Erm.... ] 10:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC) | ||
| Who doesnot eat shit? A majority of Hindus eat Shit (meat you means. To few Hindus who donot eat shit all meat eaters like Charistians, Muslims and others are untouchables. They are probably unaware of the food chain. Nobody can go beyond one's food chain. What would untouchables eat when nothing is left for them. It is learnt that everything including cattles were either snatched away or stolen by theives from poor untouchables. Moreover they were made to do very hard work. From where do they get energy to produce food for touchables. Anybody can go for eating whatever is digestible when one doesnot get food from other sources. Rajputs, Sikhs, Muslims also used to eat meat but nobody cursed them as its consequence would have proved to be fatal to the nonesense causer. But it was untouchable alone who was subjected to such heinous crimes....roserwilson | |||
| Was vandalism. . ] | ] 12:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC) | Was vandalism. . ] | ] 12:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 10:05, 24 April 2007
This artcle contains a mis-link. The word 'Varna' is linked to Bulgarian city of Varna. Maybe disambiguating page is needed.
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NPOV
I am very surprised by what seems to me clear bias in favor of the caste system. I am not Indian and know little about the subject.
The bias manifests itself in at least two ways: an overly academic tone, inappropriate for an encyclopedia entry, tends to obscure what must surely be the essence of the caste system. Also, from an outside point of view, it is frankly almost impossible to justify a system of this nature, yet the section on criticism of the caste system leads with an attack on those who would use the caste system to denigrate Hinduism. That hardly seems fair or legitimate. While passions may run high in India, there are clearly many, many reasons to be critical of the caste system that have nothing to with bashing Hindus.
Re-written
I've re-written the article. The diff is here. Some changes that I've made:
- Split the article as it was 53 KB long, which is way bigger than the size recommended by the guidelines. The split-up articles require much expansion. But, I feel that splitting will make dispute resolution and editing, in general, easier. Here the are the products of the split: History of the Indian caste system, Caste system among South Asian Muslims, Caste system among Indian Christians, Caste-related violence in India, Caste politics in India (actually a new section written by me, which I later decided to develop as an article)
- Re-organized the sections for providing logical flow and structure to the article
- Cleaned up external links -- no need to include every piece of news item here. Also, I've removed some links that have already been covered in the references. Some links such as have been moved to other articles.
- Cleaned up "Further reading" (earlier "Literature") -- removed books that have already been covered in references, and provide a "See also: references" link.
- Trimmed down sections such as The status of Untouchables and Aryan immigration stuff. Instead, provided a link to the main articles -- there's no need of repeating the content here.
- Removed unnecessary unicode characters
- Removed dubious unsourced statements (please feel free to re-add with sources)
- Remove RfC on Caste system among South Asian Muslims. The section has been moved to a new article after a split. Some of the parties involved have been banned for a year. Please file a new RfC (if required) for the new article.
I know the article is not perfect. As an atheist, and somebody who is against the caste system, I've made the edits in a neutral way and in good faith. Please feel free to put {{disputed}}, {{npov}}, {{globalize}} or other tags if required. Thanks. utcursch | talk 06:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
NPOV regarding reservation
However, the total elimination of caste system seems distant, if ever possible, due to recognition of certain castes by the Indian Government and caste politics.
Isn't the very purpose of the reservation system to long term remove caste from the social structure of India? I think this may need to be rephrased. --Tirsen 06:37, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
- The statement is not about reservation. It's about recognition of castes by the Government of India and caste politics. utcursch | talk 06:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Major Caste Groups
This section associates castes with occupations -- something that's not valid in modern contexts. The data is based on 1891 census. I think the information should be moved to History of the Indian caste system article. utcursch | talk 13:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Status of the Untouchables
Apparently the Untouchables live on the outskirts of villages because "they eat shit". Erm.... Gjb3 10:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Who doesnot eat shit? A majority of Hindus eat Shit (meat you means. To few Hindus who donot eat shit all meat eaters like Charistians, Muslims and others are untouchables. They are probably unaware of the food chain. Nobody can go beyond one's food chain. What would untouchables eat when nothing is left for them. It is learnt that everything including cattles were either snatched away or stolen by theives from poor untouchables. Moreover they were made to do very hard work. From where do they get energy to produce food for touchables. Anybody can go for eating whatever is digestible when one doesnot get food from other sources. Rajputs, Sikhs, Muslims also used to eat meat but nobody cursed them as its consequence would have proved to be fatal to the nonesense causer. But it was untouchable alone who was subjected to such heinous crimes....roserwilson
Was vandalism. Reverted. utcursch | talk 12:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
A suggest: can some one look into the suitability of citing a reference of this news item: http://in.news.yahoo.com/070309/137/6d3vz.html ਅਜੈ ਪਾਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਅਟਵਾਲ 14:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Cleanup
I made some changes -- to begin with, cleaned-up the introduction. Secondly, I moved some content to respective articles (this article was oversized). Please note that this article serves to provide just basic intro to the caste system -- it's not supposed to give detailed information about jati/varna/history etc. There are separate articles for these topics: jāti, varna in Hinduism and History of the Indian caste system. utcursch | talk 12:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Critique
Another critique: the article assumes a great deal of knowledge about India and about the caste system itself. I found it almost impenetrable. 198.93.154.20 21:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Second paragraph
I've deleted the line "The Indian Constitution has formally outlawed the caste system." because that's not true. Indian constitution has outlawed caste based discrimination but not the caste system itself. Had that been the case how would the reservations take in effect? Even though I gave a reason why I deleted this line, user Bakasuprman added that line again without providing a reason. Please provide a reference for that statement.John.Knott 20:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I think these two lines should also be deleted "The caste system is gradually declining, especially in urban areas and in the public sphere where it is all but nonexistent. However, it is still a major part of Indian societal structure in the private sphere, and caste practices are strongly adhered to in the rural areas". I have checked the reference and it doesn't say anything of the above. Please comment.John.Knott 21:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
History Part
Why is there only one quote given from Manusmiriti, which indicates that the caste system might not be non-hereditary. What about other quotes, which condemn Shudra's to gain knowledge and asks to give punishments just because he is from a lower caste? Please read this: "VIII – 270. A shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin." Doesn't this tell a different story that it might be impossible to move to upper ranks? If the quote which currently exists in this article supporting non-hereditary theory of caste system, other quotes which support impossibility of non-hereditary theory should also be presented.John.Knott 21:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I believe you are reading a poor translation of Manusmriti, no current versions contain any of that anti-Hindu slobber. Perhaps you have not read an actual part of Hindu canon (Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva, Ch 34, v 41.,Taittiriya Samhita V 7.6 3-4,Mahabharata, Vanaparva, Ch 216, vs 14-15.). Remeber the distinction between shruti (God's woord) and smriti (man's word). God > Man, so Mahabharat is quotable in this regard, manusmriti is a violation of WP:Undue weight.Bakaman 04:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but I don't understand. I'm contesting the quote which is already present in that article. That is from Manusmriti too. So either it should be removed (according to you it is a violation) that or other quotes be added too. BTW, I read Manusmriti from http://www.hindubooks.org, so there is not question of anti-Hindu slobber. What do you mean by current versions? And since when Mahabharata became a Smriti, wasn't it written by Vyasa? According to Misplaced Pages:Śruti has no author; rather, it is divine recording of the "cosmic sounds of truth", heard by rishis. but Mahabharata had an author and proceedings of Mahabharata were not heard by him.John.Knott 19:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- This entire article on caste is logically flawed. The flaw is that you are "assuming" a relationship exists between "texts" and "society". It may be true in Christianity or other Abrahamic religions but it is not true in hinduism. How many hindu refer or referred to manusmriti to decide punishment? none. how many lower caste people had their tongues cut off?? it is not known so may be none or very insignificant. so trying to locate laws in some ancient books and assuming relationships between them and society is a futile excercise.
--SV 20:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- SV, are you talking to me? I never assumed anything. I am contesting the quote which exists in this article. Either remove it or add some other quotes John.Knott 20:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The status of Untouchables
This paragraph, Even among Dalits, there's discrimination. The social status of Dalit sub-castes such as Bhangi has long been a source of contention within Indian society. Upper sub-castes among Dalits like dhobi, nai etc. do not intearct with Bhangis, the lowest order among the dalits. They are called untouchable among the untouchables. This is an example of deep set roots of caste system in the Indian psyche. gives a reference of a documentary review. This review doesn't even talk about discrimination by Dalits. A proper source should be provided for this statement "Upper sub-castes among Dalits like dhobi, nai etc. do not intearct with Bhangis" or it should be deleted. John.Knott 21:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Reforms
The practice of untouchability was formally outlawed by the Constitution of India in 1950, and has declined heavily in independent India. << there is no source provided for the last part.John.Knott 21:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Caste System among non-Hindus
Last line in this paragraph While some scholars have asserted that the Muslim Castes are not as acute in their discrimination as that among Hindus, Ambedkar argued otherwise, writing that the social evils in Muslim society were "worse than those seen in Hindu society" is not entirely true. Dr. Ambedkar also argued that Again it must be borne in mind that although there are castes among Non-Hindus, as there are among Hindus, caste has not the same social significance for Non-Hindus as it has for Hindus and But there is also a third and a more important one. Caste among the non-Hindus has no religious consecration; but among the Hindus most decidedly it has. Among the Non-Hindus, caste is only a practice, not a sacred institution. They did not originate it. With them it is only a survival. They do not regard caste as a religious dogma. Religion compels the Hindus to treat isolation and segregation of castes as a virtue. Religion does not compel the Non-Hindus to take the same attitude towards caste. from Annihilation of Caste, Chapter 19.
Why is there deliberate attempt to quote Dr. Ambedkar when criticizing or describing caste systems in Muslims or others but not when describing Hindu caste system?
I think that quote by Dr. Ambedkar should be removed or the above lines should be added.John.Knott 14:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Criticism
In the first paragraph it says, In many cases, anti-Hindus have exploited the controversy to rake up prejudices against Hindus and Hindu culture. Typically, radical elements of other religions rake up caste issues to delegitimize the right of Hindus to practice their faith. references please???
Why this article seems to be favoring with the caste system? Where is the NPOV?John.Knott 14:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Historical criticism
Early Dalit politics involved many Hindu reform movements which arose primarily as a reaction to the advent of Christian Missionaries in India and their attempts to mass-convert Dalits to Christianity under the allure of escaping the caste system (however, the Caste system among Indian Christians remained in full force even after conversions).
What?? How is this historical criticism?John.Knott 14:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Contemporary Criticism
Many Hindus point out that the caste system is related to the Indian society, and not Hinduism (as is evident by presence of caste among Indian Christians and Muslims).
Why that line is being suggestive? Shouldn't that be left to reader to decide whether caste system is a part of Hinduism or Indian society?John.Knott 14:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Uhh... What? The line just says that's what many Hindus make note of. It doesn't say that's the pure and unadulterated truth.--24.22.147.202 05:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- ok, please provide reference where Hindus do point that and also, "as is evident by presence of caste among Indian Christians and Muslims" is the author's comment and doesn't speak for Hindus.John.Knott 15:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Indian constitution and the caste system
I've deleted this line 'The Indian Constitution has formally outlawed the caste system." twice and it has been reverted back. I had also initiated it for discussion with the user Bakasuprman and on the article's discussion page. I was never offered a reason even though I presented the fact that Indian constitution doesn't outlaw the caste system but it does outlaw the caste based discrimination. Why there is an attempt to twist the facts?John.Knott 15:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Please read articles 14 to 18 under Right to Equality from the Indian constitution, which clearly states the prohibition of discrimination on grounds of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth and Abolition of Untouchability, but it never talks about the abolition or outlawing to caste system itself. The Indian constitution is available online, http://lawmin.nic.in/coi.htmJohn.Knott 16:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Incompatability of Varna System with Ashrama system of life
The Varna system as explained by certain distorted or misconceived texts is not at all compatible with the division of life into four spans of 25 yers each of human life. According to Asharma theory everybody irrespective of his caste has to engage himself in studies and observe celibacy during Brahamcharya Ashrama (first 25 years of age). Therefore everybody is a Brahman (i.e brahamchari man..or..pure mind with celibacy). Similary everybody is a kshatriya, shudra and vaishyas from 25th to 50th year of one's age. And similarly the third and fourth stage of life (Vanspratha and Sanyas asharama) leads one to total devotion to the God irrespective of one's caste or creed. Varna system on the other hand expects a Brahmin to maintain celibacy and bear no children, a kshatriya to engage in wars and quarrels since the day of birth, the shudra and vaishya accordingly. The Asharma system seems to be more realistic than the Varna system as all the occupations have equal importance for the society. The varna system emphasize creation of a larger battalion of unproductive minds, idle/unemployed hands, cheats, misappropriaters and beggars etc. etc.The system therefore need to be reviewed and illusion creating unproductive thoughts needs to be cleared away to avoid major psychlogical havocs bound to occur to many at the interface of reality and myth in a real world. ....roserwilson
Clippings from kashatriyas however reveal a diffrent story suugesting that sudras and dalits are product of something else
The Manusmriti, written about 200 AD states that the Sakas (Scythians), Yavanas (Ionian, Indo-Greeks), Kambojas (Central Asians), Paradas (Sinkiang), Pahlavas (Persians), Kiratas (Nepal, Assam), Dravidas (Tamil,Pandiya Kula Kshatriya Mara Nadar), and Daradas were originally noble Kshatriyas but were relegated to the Barbaric (Vrishala) status due to their neglect of the Brahmanas as well as due to their non-observance of the sacred Brahmanical codes (X/43-44). Anushasanaparava of the Mahabharata also views the Sakas, Kambojas and the Yavanas etc. in the same light. Patanjali in his Mahabhasya regards the Sakas and Yavanas as pure Sudras (II.4.10).....roserwilson
quote from main article
The creation of the modern caste system was through political corruption and general trends in society. In all societies, the sons of kings are labelled princes and thus remain royalty despite whether they merit royalty or not. Similarly, within medieval India, the son of Brahmins were expected to be Brahmins by taking up their father's jobs. The sons of outcastes in the original varna systems were treated by the next generation as outcastes like their parents. Thus, varna became hereditary and transformed into the caste system. Some people, especially those of the forward castes, understand this political system as a way to propagate their children into a better life.
If son of master was labelled as master and the son of servant was labelled as servant than why do all those forwards who served as servants and gulams/slaves to the Arabians and Europeans still retain their ancient caste titles so arrogantly? The article on Indian castes has proved to be highelly biased as it contains malicious views against right minded poor gentle people. Poor people alone know as to what level of moral and ethical worth do the forward or rich people own. If scornful stinking stockpiles of unearned wealth is the basis of the so called forwardness and upperhood then it bears no moral sanctity in the international community. If children's future could be made bright by inculcating bad sanskaras than the future of the world is certainly gloomy becouse hybrids of dishonesty and cleverness are bound to be uncontrollable anti social elements with clean outward appearance.
The creation of the modern caste system was through political corruption and general trends in society. In all societies, the sons of kings are labelled princes and thus remain royalty despite whether they merit royalty or not. WHAT IS INTENDED TO BE PROVED BY THESE SUPERFLUOUS VIEWS. IT SEEMS THAT EVEN THE CHEAPEST VIEWS OF SOME PEOPLE GET INCLUDED IN THE TEXT WHILE SCIENTIFICALLY ANALYSED VIEWS FROM SOME OTHERS GETS DELETED WITHIN NO TIME. MOST OF THE SCRIPTURES ARE PEICES OF LOW MENTALITY AND MANY OF THE SAGES (THE SO CALLED LEARNED PHILOSOPHERS) ARE WORSE EVEN THAN THE MOST FOOLISH PERSON TODAY. ONLY ONE LESSON WAS MOST PROMINENTLY TOLD TO THE PEOPLE, I.E, DONOT DO ANY WORK BECOUSE ALL THOSE WHO DO WORK ARE LOW CATEGORY PEOPLE.iT IS THEREFORE RECOMMENDED THAT BEG BEG AND BEG TILL YOU DIE. AND THOSE CASTE NAMES HAVE NOW VIRTUALLY BECOME MOST HATED WORDS IN THE VOCABULARY OF BROADMINDED COMMON MAN. Similarly, within medieval India, the son of Brahmins were expected to be Brahmins by taking up their father's jobs. The sons of outcastes in the original varna systems were treated by the next generation as outcastes like their parents. ...........
...roserwilson
Castes? Hierarchy?
I have to second Anonymous' opinion that this article seems to assume prior knowledge of Indian castes. While the academic and encyclopedic nature of this article is certainly meritable, you can't write an Encyclopedia article on the "Orange" without saying it is a fruit.
As someone who ran a search for "Indian caste system" looking for basic information, I can point out that the two main faults I found were:
1. The failure to note which are the more common castes (ie, the ones which take up the largest chunk of the population). While there is an article called "List of Indian castes", there is no way for the layperson to know if some castes make up 99% of the population, or if most account for just 0.01%.
2. The failure to sketch a brief hierarchy. While this article makes it very clear that the Dalits are at the "bottom of the rung", it doesn't mention who's "above". The relationships between castes is one of the great sources of curiosity to someone without any knowledge of the system. Do all Indian presidents hail from the caste on the tip of the pyramid? How far up the pyramid are Indian actors/mathematicians/doctors/musicians? Where does Gandhi fit in? Do some castes emigrate more than others?
All these are questions that pop to mind when a non-Indian hears about castes. Mip | Talk 12:01, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
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