Talk:Pseudoscience: Difference between revisions

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	== Should UFO still be categorized as Pseudoscience and fringe science? ==
	{{ctop\|Socks don't get to start threads -- ]<sup>]</sup> 19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)}}
	I recently got a notification on my talkpage when I edited this article.

	https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Lonestar-physicist#Introduction_to_contentious_topics

	So is UFO considered Pseudoscience and fringe science? if so why is US government considers it a national security threat and scientifically analyzing it?

	this is from AARO website published today:

	https://www.aaro.mil/

	"Our team of experts is leading the U.S. government’s efforts to address Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) using a rigorous scientific framework and a data-driven approach. Since its establishment in July 2022, AARO has taken important steps to improve data collection, standardize reporting requirements, and mitigate the potential threats to safety and security posed by UAP."

	https://defensescoop.com/2023/08/30/hicks-takes-direct-oversight-of-pentagons-uap-office-new-reporting-website-to-be-launched/?utm_content=262515320&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-1450183022616121344

	from the article: "When asked why she went all-in on prioritizing AARO as an element under her purview, particularly now, Hicks told DefenseScoop: “The department takes UAP seriously because UAP are a potential national security threat. They also pose safety risks, and potentially endanger our personnel, our equipment and bases, and the security of our operations. DOD is focusing through AARO to better understand UAP, and improve our capabilities to detect, collect, analyze and eventually resolve UAP to prevent strategic surprise and protect our forces, our operations, and our nation.” ] (]) 17:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

	:Governments get mislead by pseudoscience all the time. See for example ] or the ]. - ] (]) 17:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::well that's such a huge false equivalency. So how do you determine when government is being misled or not? And what makes you think you're more intelligent than DOD scientists like Sean Kirkpatrick? ] (]) 17:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::We determine it by following what the best available ] say (this is how we determine more or less everything on Misplaced Pages). They're pretty clear. Ufology is a field dominated by fringe/pseudoscience. ] (]) 17:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::there's fringe/pseudoscience in every field, such as vaccinology. is Vaccinology considered fringe/pseudoscience? ] (]) 18:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::We don't have reliable sources that say so, so no. ] (]) 18:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::So in your opinion editors are supposed to not use their brain, ignore facts and delegate their thinking to so called reliable sources? Great idea! ] (]) 18:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::: Yes, that's exactly what Misplaced Pages does, and always has done, because it roots our articles in fact rather than opinion. There is a big difference between fields that have some minor fringe/pseudoscientific theories attached to them, and fields (like UFOlogy) that are effectively completely fringe. And yes, that's what reliable sources say. ] 18:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::{{tq\|And what makes you think you're more intelligent}} Intelligence does not come into it either. Your whole approach is totally fakakte. Pseudoscience, that is, a thing that pretends to be science, does not stop being pseudoscience just because someone falls for the pretense. That would be like throwing the theories of relativity out of the window just because of one measurement of a speed value above c. Mistakes happen. --] (]) 18:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::Intelligence is also irrelevant to this then? lol. that's what I meant about some people here expecting editors to not use their brains.
	::::Aren't you just appealing to authority and pretending that your approach is science and fact based? ] (]) 18:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::I ask everyone to not make this personal and stay on subject. This is all to improve the article. ] (]) 18:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::Yes. Misplaced Pages is based on appeals to authority, by design. That is the essence of our core policies, ], ], ], etc. ] (]) 18:48, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::appeal to authority is a fallacy according to wikipedia
	:::::::An argument from authority (argumentum ab auctoritate), also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam (argument against shame), is a form of fallacy when the opinion of a non-expert on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument or when the authority is used to say that the claim is true, as authorities can be wrong
	:::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/Argument_from_authority ] (]) 19:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::::{{tq\| is a form of fallacy '''when the opinion of a non-expert'''}} - This is why we rely on experts (that is, reliable sources as laid out in ]). ] (]) 19:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::::you don't make any sense man. read what you write first. you don't know what you're talking about. ] (]) 19:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::::::Right back at you, my man. ] (]) 19:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	:::::::::::if you can't act as a grown up, please go play somewhere else. ] (]) 19:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	::::::::::::You can always tell an argument is going well when the personal attacks come out. You're right, though, we've accomplished everything this thread is going to accomplish - you now know that per Misplaced Pages's policies, this article can and will continue to identify Ufology as a pseudoscience. Feel free to take the last word if you require it. ] (]) 19:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
	: UFO should classified as scientific speculative, rather than pseudoscience or fringe science. There are many evidence of UFO, but it often classified as anecdotal evidence rather than a definitive evidence or scientific evidence. We cannot 100% confirm UFO exists, but there are many UFO reports. Some are hoax, some are illusion, some are misclassified, or some may be truth but we cannot 100% sure, and there are no universal agreed way that we can use scientific method to verify these report are definitely or most likely are truth. ] (]) 07:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
	{{cob}}

	== Creationism vs Creation Science ==		== Creationism vs Creation Science ==
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	:::Furthermore, there are critical difference between real pseudoscience vs religious concept like creationism, or traditional superstitions concept like astrology. A Real pseudoscience is difficult to differentiate from real science, say most people who believe ] think they are real science and widely accepted by mainstream scientist. However, most creationism believer and advocator are well-informed and they understand creationism are religious concept not current science concept, but they believe bible is more reliable than science when we study the origin of species. Astrology believer are also well-informed that it is being criticized as superstitions. Better language can highlight which one is the real pseudoscience. ] (]) 08:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)		:::Furthermore, there are critical difference between real pseudoscience vs religious concept like creationism, or traditional superstitions concept like astrology. A Real pseudoscience is difficult to differentiate from real science, say most people who believe ] think they are real science and widely accepted by mainstream scientist. However, most creationism believer and advocator are well-informed and they understand creationism are religious concept not current science concept, but they believe bible is more reliable than science when we study the origin of species. Astrology believer are also well-informed that it is being criticized as superstitions. Better language can highlight which one is the real pseudoscience. ] (]) 08:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
	::::The gist is that we (meaning Wikipedians) aren't the ] who establish demarcation. ] (]) 18:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)		::::The gist is that we (meaning Wikipedians) aren't the ] who establish demarcation. ] (]) 18:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

	== Unfalsifiable ==

	Should be falsifiable I believe. ] (]) 10:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

	:No, in this case 'unfalisifiable' is correct. ] (]) 12:25, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

	== Race ==		== Race ==

Latest revision as of 12:13, 12 December 2024

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Creationism vs Creation Science

I understand that the list for pseudoscience's is a quote,

"that creationism, astrology, homeopathy, Kirlian photography, dowsing, ufology, ancient astronaut theory, Holocaust denialism, Velikovskian catastrophism, and climate change denialism are pseudosciences."

but should the link for creationism be changed to Creation Science rather than Creationism, seeing that that page is dedicated to the specific pseudoscientific claims instead of Creationism, which is more philosophical. Chip K. Daniels (talk) 05:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Creationism has sections on different types. Young Earth creationism, Gap creationism, Day-age creationism, Progressive creationism, Creation science, Neo-creationism, Intelligent design, Geocentrism, Omphalos hypothesis are all pseudoscience.

changing the link seems like a reasonable suggestion to me. and if creation science is what we use for that subject on wikipedia, i think it makes sense for the text to also be changed to Creation Science. Handpigdad (talk) 04:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

We use the term "creation science" for creation science and "creationism" for creationism. Both are pseudoscience (see my contribution above; I moved yours down because it is newer, see WP:THREAD), so there is no good reason to replace it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Pseudoscience guideline, it is better to use a more accurate language rather than pseudoscientific one. So, Creationism and Creation Science is better to classified as religious belief rather than pseudoscience. Ufology and ancient astronaut theory is better to classified as scientific speculative rather than pseudoscience. Astrology is better classified as traditional superstitions or pseudopsychology rather than pseudoscience. Homeopathy is better classified as pseudomedicine rather than pseudoscience. The term "Pseudoscience" is better reserve for only those theory that really look like science but actually are not science or rejected by science, say Ten percent of the brain myth, or Neuro-linguistic programming Cloud29371 (talk) 07:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, there are critical difference between real pseudoscience vs religious concept like creationism, or traditional superstitions concept like astrology. A Real pseudoscience is difficult to differentiate from real science, say most people who believe Ten percent of the brain myth think they are real science and widely accepted by mainstream scientist. However, most creationism believer and advocator are well-informed and they understand creationism are religious concept not current science concept, but they believe bible is more reliable than science when we study the origin of species. Astrology believer are also well-informed that it is being criticized as superstitions. Better language can highlight which one is the real pseudoscience. Cloud29371 (talk) 08:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The gist is that we (meaning Wikipedians) aren't the authorities who establish demarcation. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Race

About this recent edit. The removal based on the edit summary appears incorrect, if race (human categorization) is merely a social construct then then logic goes that it is not scientifically valid. Gotitbro (talk) 14:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

UFO

Hello, there's a topic on this subject already, but I still wonder, why are you people claiming UFO are pseudoscience? Clearly, life doesn't exist only on this planet, and the UFO sightinghs are real... so it may not be a science, but it's not false either. 46.97.168.128 (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, the claim that there are flying objects which have been not identified is not pseudoscience. Claiming that aliens visit the Earth without very good evidence is pseudoscience. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Pseudoscience on the Pseudoscience Article

The section Pseudoscience#Education_and_scientific_literacy heavily relies on Dual process theory, presenting it as if the popular science book Thinking, Fast and Slow and its proposed terminology and concepts were widely accepted as fact. Special attention should be paid to Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow#Replication_crisis and Dual_process_theory#Issues_with_the_dual-process_account_of_reasoning. At the very least, the paragraph should be changed to contextualize the statement as being made in the view of dual process theory, and not simply throw out "System 1, our default operating system which requires little to no effort" as a phrase with no wiki links as if it was an obvious well-established concept.

I'd change the paragraph myself and remove any mention of Dual process theory as per the fringe theory policies outlined at WP:FRINGE, but the page is protected, likely due to similar content continually being added to it. Sprintente (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Scientific Consensus

I am totally new to Misplaced Pages, sorry if I make mistakes. But I read somewhere in here that, if I understand it correctly, though we must call pseudoscience pseudoscience, we must not make statements of whether it is true or false. Therefore, instead of saying "such and such a theory is false" we should say "the vast majority of scientists reject such a theory" or "this theory is unscientific." Even pseudoscientists agree. For example, on the topic of young earthism, I have a quote from Ken Ham saying "we are the minority."

Just wondering if I got this correct. Thank you! Lenderthrond (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your question. And welcome to Misplaced Pages. You've also asked this question at Talk:Creation science and it is receiving response there. Please don't ask the same question in two different locations. Feline Hymnic (talk) 08:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I am new to this. Should I delete the question, if it is possible? Lenderthrond (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. Personally, I would just leave this conversation here. It shows that the issue is noted and resolved. Feline Hymnic (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Danger of Pseudoscience

"Pseudoscience can have dangerous effects." This seems like an incomplete statement to make that leads the reader to believe that, conversely, Science does not have dangerous effects and is therefore superior. Countless products of the scientific process have caused dangerous effects on humans, animals, plants, and the environment (csuch as chemicals in our food, side effects of vaccinations, radiation, etc, all of which have evidence of harm to ). Pseudoscience is not necessarily more beneficial or harmful than science, but rather has different processes leading to it. 2600:1014:A020:7D9F:EDB3:C4AE:45A6:1A57 (talk) 18:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The quoted statement is true. But unless you suggest a specific edit based upon WP:RS, your request has to be discarded.

Namely, the evil consequences (real or purported) of science amount to WP:COATRACK. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

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