Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:28, 22 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic: You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Germany Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Arab world Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. International relations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. History Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. European history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: European / German / World War II This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  European military history task force German military history task force World War II task force Former countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country Palestine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Austria Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Rob Eshman (June 19, 2024). "Misplaced Pages called the ADL 'unreliable.' It's a wake-up call the civil rights organization badly needs". The Forward. Retrieved June 20, 2024. One featured item of evidence: Editors' removal of an article titled "Nazism in Palestinian Society," which they flagged as "soapbox," or leaning toward anti-Palestinian advocacy. Not mentioned: That Misplaced Pages offers a far more thorough entry, "Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world" which delves deeply into the Nazi-Palestinian alliance.

half-apes or half maniacs?

Hitler called the people of the Far East and Arabia "Halbaffen". The great majority of English translations use the literal "half-apes", but at least one uses "half maniacs", namely this (p259). The English phrase "half maniac" seems to be pretty obsolete; once it referred to a person with wild unpredictable behavior or something like that (I can't find a formal dictionary definition, can anyone?). It would be reasonable to mention both possibilities, but not to replace the common translation with a phrase few people now understand. Zero 01:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC

Hi im not really into this, but im just gonna say that naziislamism is a stupid word invented by the danish conservative party to use as an islamofobic thing. Hope you gonna look into this. Best regards Frederik.

Zionists vs Jews

I changed the text, but it was reverted. Why?the Huge~nlwiki (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It is quite clear that Nazi Germany hated Jews, not Zionists.

So, if stated that NG and the Arabs had a common enemy, it certainly weren't the zionists. Huge~nlwiki (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

How about just removing that part all together? And just have the sentence say:

The cooperative political and military relationships were based on shared hostilities towards common enemies, such as the United Kingdom and France, who held colonies in the Arab world. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems quite important to keep in - maybe make it first. It is so absurd to have Zionist in this article - why is this even on the talk page? The source quoted says:

> Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union Lansey (talk) 05:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not what the source says:

From https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/hajj-amin-al-husayni-wartime-propagandist

Al-Husayni stressed in his speeches and writings the common interests of Germany and Italy with those of Arabs and Muslims. Nazi Germany was the natural ally of the Arab and Muslim world. Not only had Germany never imposed colonial rule on an Arab state, Germany and the Arab world also shared the same enemies: the Jews, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. Al-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.

The article is quoting Al-Husayni, it's not making that statement directly. Obviously, the USHMM would never argue that Jews are the enemy of Arab people. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

”l-Husayni pointed out that Germany alone recognized the global threat of the "Jewish problem" and took steps to "solve" it globally.”

Your own comment.

Is there no limits you will not cross in order to seek to justify your Jew-hatred? KronosAlight (talk) 22:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Removing means omitting the fact, thus we should avoid it. I've been trying to fact check that Nazi were fighting against Zionist movement, but the only information I could find was thesis that Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine. While I personally don't think that this thesis has something to deal with the reality. I remember that Russian antisemitists are very often referring to themselves as Zionists and state that they want all Jews to live in Israel (but themselves they are not Jewish, so this effectively translates into motto "Jews Go Home") and are doing they're best to "motivate" anyone who looks Jewish in Russia to leave the country. But yeah, bottom line, "Jews" instead of "Zionists" seem to be more precise definition. Baitcode (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

please see my edit request below, i believe it solves the issue. Ofer.molad (talk) 15:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh. You are actually correct. Thank you. Baitcode (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

"Zionists actually partnered with Hitler to effectively exile Jews from Europe to Palestine."

No, that's not an accurate description at all. It sounds like you picked up that this is counter-factual propaganda. Think of the Haavara Agreement like a hostage negotiation. Every Jew in Europe had a 75% chance of dying by the end of the war. The Zionists view that for every 100 Jews who left Europe for Mandate Palestine, 75 Jewish lives were saved. Thus, in the Zionist view, the Haavara Agreement saved 45,000 Jewish lives. The Haavara Agreement was supported by the German treasury department under the relative moderate, Hjallmar Schacht, and was ended by the state department for contradicting the Reich's Jewish policies.

This line of criticism of the Haavara Agreement originated in Soviet propaganda, which was plagiarized by Mahmoud Abbas at the University of Moscow, becoming a mainstream Antizionist talking point ever since.

As for Zionist activities against the Nazis, most of the Jewish resistance were Zionists. The Jewish Combat Organization headed by Mordechai Anielewicz was Zionist. Rosa Robota was a Zionist, as was Hannah Szenes. One of my goals in editing Misplaced Pages is that information like this should be more readily researchable, where now it is too difficult to find.

--Scharb (talk) Scharb (talk) 18:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Judging the Haavara Agreement with hindsight is an error. Nobody at the time (not even most Nazis) knew that the Holocaust was coming. Zero 00:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Herzl himself knew that something very much like the Holocaust was coming. From 1881 onwards there was a relentless, unremitting and increasingly total brutal violence unleashed upon the Jewish population of Russia and Europe. This isn’t debatable, it’s not subjective or disputed. This is the entire reason, which he explains explicitly and in detail across many books and speeches, why he calls for the establishment of a self-governing Jewish state, not in order to oppress but in order to escape the coming disaster. KronosAlight (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

== motivation

There is a duplication between 2 paragraphs about the "hostility towards uk france and the jews. I simply rearranged the sentences a bit, so one paragraph discusses antisemism and the other discusses uk/france. I find the new format much clearer. As a bonus: - there is no 'hinted' association with the entire Arab World, as the sentence clearly states "some arab leaders". (Dan) - the colonial subject is not "interrupted" by antisemitsm subject, but immediately flows to the anglo-iraqi war; this makes it easier to read. - the complete nonsense about zionism and Nazi Germany is removed

= edit =

Replace the text staring with: "The cooperative political and miltary" Up to: "antisemitism in Islam" With the text below.

=======

One foundation of such collaborations was the antisemitism of the Nazis, which was shared by some Arab and Muslim leaders, most notably the exiled Palestinian leader, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husseini (see subsection in "antisemitism in Islam"). Another foundation was the Nazi hostility towards the United Kingdom and France which held colonies in the Arab World. This hostility translated to an anti colonial interest that Nazi Germany shared with some Arab leaders. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely Spain, Vichy France and Italy. Ofer.molad (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think your proposed change is good. I'd prefer something like

This hostility was used in Nazi propaganda to allege an anti colonial common interest that Nazi Germany held. However this interest conflicted with interests of Nazi Germany's allies who held colonies in the Arab world, namely Spain, Vichy France and Italy, and this had to manage competing interests in the region.

I just want to make it clear Nazi Germany did not actually intend to free the Arab world. Drsmartypants(Smarty M.D) (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. You make a good point. Perhaps modify "Nazi propganda" to "Nazi propaganda to the Arab world", this is slightly more accurate.. Ofer.molad (talk) 15:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I want to make it clear that large parts of the Arab world agreed with Hitler’s goal of exterminating the Jewish people. KronosAlight (talk) 22:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

 Already done this thread can finally be closed. no edits needed here. Awhellnawr123214 (talk) 04:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

References

1.  • "Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Wartime Propagandist". Holocaust Encyclopedia. Washington, D.C.: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. 2020. Archived from the original on 14 June 2018. Retrieved 13 October 2020.  • "Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Arab Nationalist and Muslim Leader". Holocaust Encyclopedia. Washington, D.C.: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. 2020. Archived from the original on 14 June 2018. Retrieved 13 October 2020.

Hitler will

Can somebody explain how including that is not WP:OR? nableezy - 06:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a primary source. Completely inappropriate for anything in the lede. It's about public opinion in some countries and could be summarized thusly: "Hitler wrote that Italy's colony in Libya and atrocities there - as well as German support for France's colonies in North Africa - hurt the cause of The Axis in the region."Dan Murphy (talk) 14:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

But what’s that even have to do with the subject of this article? nableezy - 18:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Not a damn thing. I'm all for removing it.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I think Hitler being worried about Italian colonialism and atrocities impacting Germany's ability to penetrate the Arab world is fairly relevant to this article, no? In any case, I'm pretty sure I've seen this brought up in an RS; will try to dig it up so we don't have to rely on a primary source. Meluiel (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

There needs to be some reliable sources connecting Hitlers will to the topic of this article or it will be removed again. And per WP:ONUS consensus is needed to restore disputed content. nableezy - 19:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• C-Class Germany articles
• Mid-importance Germany articles
• WikiProject Germany articles
• C-Class Arab world articles
• Mid-importance Arab world articles
• WikiProject Arab world articles
• C-Class International relations articles
• Low-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• C-Class history articles
• Mid-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• C-Class European history articles
• Mid-importance European history articles
• All WikiProject European history pages
• C-Class military history articles
• C-Class European military history articles
• European military history task force articles
• C-Class German military history articles
• German military history task force articles
• C-Class World War II articles
• World War II task force articles
• C-Class former country articles
• WikiProject Former countries articles
• C-Class Palestine-related articles
• Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• C-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• C-Class Austria articles
• Mid-importance Austria articles
• All WikiProject Austria pages
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press