Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:34, 1 May 2005

Note: Other relevent comments may exist at Talk:Free_Republic. Consider reading that page, too, before taking any brash action.

Please consider discussing before deleting-Casito 07:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I didn't delete, I redirected after merging all content into the Free Republic page. My apologies for being bold. That said, you are free to chime in on the Talk:Free Republic page if you so wish. --Jonathan Christensen 08:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Repost of the message from the FR discussion forum. All further discussions of this, if any, need to take place here.

JC - the only person who seems to be acting unilaterally on this matter is you. You've unilaterally merged the page itself twice now with little to no discussion at all, though others have asked you to discuss that on Talk:Jim_Robinson. Showing up on the talk page and saying the equivalent of "yeah, but i'm gonna do it anyway" is not a discussion. As it stands right now there seem to be three people who favor leaving it as it was with only you proposing to merge it, yet you plow right ahead with the merge unilaterally. As for common wikipedia policy on people who are well known for their websites having separate articles, I direct you to a couple well known examples:

• The Daily Kos blog and owner Markos Moulitsas Zúniga
• The Drudge Report and owner Matt Drudge
• The Little Green Footballs blog and owner Charles Johnson
• Power Line (blog) and its owners John_H._Hinderaker and Scott_W._Johnson

Based upon these precedents, it seems that a separate article here would be both appropriate and in keeping with wikipedia formatting policy. I have restored the previous article and removed your redirect on this basis. I will also post a copy of this comment on the discussion forum there. If you still support a change in which the articles are merged, then YOU need to go over there and make your case for it on that discussion section rather than acting unilaterally and turning talking only after the change you desire is done. Thanks for understanding. Rangerdude 16:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For the time being, I shall comment here. First, there are several factual errors in your interpretation I would like to point out. For starters, you state that the only person acting unilaterally was me. Hardly! I initially merged the pages in keeping with the WP:BB policy. If others didn't like it, they might have reverted it and tried to discuss it. Did they? Perhaps a look at the summary Wakeforest left when he reverted the Free Republic page will be enlightening:

(don't agree leave page alone or you'll be blocked)

Oh, but that's not at all unilateral, is it? Here's a brand new user account (Wakeforest had neither a user page or a talk page at the time he made that revert; he created his user page with no meaningful content soon after, and I created his talk page), probably a sock puppet--he shows some knowledge of Misplaced Pages, if he is seemingly entirely ignorant of proper processes--threatening to block me if I edit the page at all. Why? Because he doesn't agree with me. But that'snot unilateral, is it, Rangerdude? No, of course not.

After he made that comment, I decided that the best thing to do would be to discuss it. So I asked a question on his talk page:

Hey, what's up with the Free Republic page? "leave page alone or you'll be blocked?" Who do you think you are? If you disagree, we can discuss it. Otherwise, I will be forced to take this to arbitration. --Jonathan Christensen 07:44, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oooh, that's pretty unilateral, isn't it? I dunno, I guess Wakeforest had better keep on being nice and accepting, since I was being soooo unilateral. This is what I got in response:

Who do I think I am?

Not relevant to a little person as yourself.

I have warned you once. You won't get a second warning before you are blocked and hard-banned. Wakeforest 07:46, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Once again, it's clear that Wakeforest is absolutely not being unilateral, isn't it. I mean, isn't it? It isn't? Oh dear, what am I to do?

So what does the oh-so unilateral JC do? Why, he asks Wakeforest for an explanation, once again:

Since when do you have the ability to block and hardban me, and why should I be blocked or hardbanned? I've posted a comment on that talk page; unless you explain yourself reasonable, I will take this to RfC immediately. --Jonathan Christensen 07:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Damn him and his unilateral ways, asking people to explain themselves not once, but twice! After 25 minutes without any kind of response or action on Wakeforest's part--strange, IMHO, for someone who was just about to hardban me--I once again merged the page, figuring him to be some sort of obscene sockpuppet joke.

Now that that is out of the way, we can turn to more relevant matters. First, you claim there are at least three people in favor of keeping it as two seperate articles; in fact, I count at most two, you and wakeforest (who, as I noted earlier, is most likely a sockpuppet--his only edits are reverting the changes I made, creating his user page with a singly comma on it, and threatening me on my user page). Although one other person edited this page soon after Wakeforst reverted it, they have yet to weigh in on either side of the discussion, although I invited them to do so. If or when they do, perhaps you can say three.

Second, in all the other cases you cite those pages have information which certainly does not belong on the main site page, and merits a page for that particular person. Although Markos Moulitsas Zúniga is a small page, that biographical material certainly does not belong on his blog's page. Drudge's page has its merits merely in its size, though some of it is surely duplicated on the Drudge Report page. No matter. Charles Johnson's page has other material as well, such as his career as a jass guitarist. This page has no such material; all of it, apart from the two sentences at the top, clearly belongs in the Free Republic article, and even those might be debated.

So, I need to go over where now to make my case? Perhaps I need to join the Society of Unilateralists, or the Society of Sock Puppeteers, so that I can make my case more effectively, as Wakeforest obviously seems to have convinced you that way?

Please, get a clue about what is actually going on here. Or are you going to threaten to hardban me now for disagreeing with you? --Jonathan Christensen 19:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

JC - Your response to an attempt at discussion is unnecessarily combative in tone. Misplaced Pages works on consensus, not flame wars. Contrary to your indications, others DID try to discuss the issue here above after you came along and changed the article - see Casito's post to you "Please consider discussing before deleting." Your response was to neglect his request for a explanation of your changes, send him over to the FR discussion page, and go right ahead with those changes unimpeded and without any genuine consideration of the requests that had been made of you. That is the definition of unilateral action. Misplaced Pages operates around consensus, and quite frankly the consensus to date is NOT with you on this issue. It is plainly evident from your post that you have some sort of previous issue with Wakeforest that I'd prefer not to tread into. Come back when you're mature enough to engage in a polite discussion of the proper placement of this article absent your disposition toward combative rantings and unilateral changes against the consensus. Rangerdude 00:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From RFC

Hmm. This looks to have been unpleasant. Personally I don't see any problem with a redirect; this person is only notable for his involvement with the Website, which has its own page. Information on the author of the Website can go there. I probably would've just put it up for VfD. · Katefan0 19:46, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

• Oh, and this probably goes without saying, but it's not very polite to make threats about banning someone just because you disagree with something they did editorially. (Not to mention pretending to have the power to ban someone in the first place.) · Katefan0 20:59, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The source of the unpleasantness to date has been JC, who unilaterally changed the article at a time when there was no consensus to do so. Going by how similar website/website author articles have been formed (see the examples I gave above) it seems perfectly proper to split them into two articles in keeping with how other situations like this have been handled. Rangerdude 00:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Creating a redirect in this situation -- as opposed to ridiculously empty threats about banning someone over an editorial disagreement -- seems much less unpleasant. As to the rest, I suppose if someone were invested in the article it would seem unpleasant for someone to create a redirect and merge the information in another article, but Misplaced Pages asks us to assume good faith. It also says to be bold. On the other hand, it was perfectly OK for someone with a disagreement to revert his edit. So far everybody's playing well together. The proper thing to do then becomes discussing the redirect/revert on talk pages; unfortunately the person who reverted his edit instead let his or her temper get the better of him and began making empty threats about banning in a laughable attempt to get his way. As for prior precedents, personally I don't think this person and this publication rise to the same level of notability as something like Drudge Report or Daily Kos. I don't claim to be the ultimate arbiter of such things, but I've heard of all the others you mentioned -- but not this one. Perhaps this is best decided as part of a VfD vote where it will attract more opinions, as was my initial thought. Just my two cents. · Katefan0 03:11, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

• • Once again, I do not know why that user threatened a banning or whatever else he did. From the looks of things those two users have past issues. My attention is concerned with this article, and JC's response to several simple and polite requests that he explain himself rather than acting unilaterally was unnecessarily combative and accusitory. His edit was reverted because at least three people, myself included, voiced disagreement with it and with the unilateral manner in which he went about conducting it despite requests to engage the issue in a consensus-oriented discussion. As to your comments on this site author, Free Republic is actually a larger and better travelled website than all of the other examples save Drudge. The "well I haven't heard of him" standard doesn't leave much to go by, and those who have heard of him seem to be recognizing his importance for a separate article. Also, regarding a VfD, I don't think this option should be sought unless more substantive differences are exercised here. Just because some random user comes along and decides to make a major change to a developing article without justifying it doesn't mean we have to immediately poll all of wikipedia to resolve it. Let's use a little common sense here before taking it to a higher level. Rangerdude 16:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Personally, I think VfD is the commonsense next step unless more people notice the RfC. RfC doesn't always attract a lot of attention. Currently we're stalemated, for instance. · Katefan0 20:54, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

• • • • I don't see what you describe as a stalemate. Right now I see (1) a user who is angry over the fact that his attempts to merge the articles were reverted and met objections from not one but several editors, most of whom he's essentially shunned to pursue personal issues with one over events that happened on the Free Republic article (2) you, apparently voicing the belief that it should be merged, and (3) four users who have indicated that it should be separate in some form, myself among them. Given these circumstances, it does not seem that this article is suffering from a lack of attention nor does there appear to be a "stalemate" (4 is larger than 2). Nor does there seem to be anybody seriously making the case why a merger is necessary, though I have made an extensive case based on other precedents that support having two separate articles. If you'd like to resolve this then by all means make your case. But jumping to a VfD before that's even happened and in the seeming deficit of other supporters for whatever your position may be is not the solution at this time Rangerdude 21:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • Sorry, I take that back -- three people who are for separate articles and two against (I forgot to include the original reverter). Not sure who you count as a fourth but it doesn't look like it matters. Mea culpa. · Katefan0 21:35, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

• • • These two users do not have past issues, because the other user did not exist in the past. He was created solely for the purpose of threatening to ban me. I'd be very interested to know who's puppet he was, however. Perhaps I should see if I can get any help on that. Second, my edit was reverted because the owner of this puppet (this puppeteer) disagreed with me and wanted to ban me, not because three people coived disagreements and wanted to discuss it. Perhaps you need to work the chronology out... --Jonathan Christensen 17:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • Whatever issue it may be between you and him, take it somewhere else. This discussion is about the design and placement of this article, not a forum for you to whine about whoever you think has wronged you. As I noted previously, come back when you're mature enough to engage in a polite discussion of the proper placement of this article absent your disposition toward combative rantings and unilateral changes against the consensus. Rangerdude 20:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
        • See, it's impossible to take it somewhere else, because the user account effectively doesn't anymore. It's called a sockpuppet. You may have have heard the word before. But, this will now go on VfD, because here, at least, you insist on repeatedly turning the discussion towards me rather than the matter in question. Perhaps there you might be able restrain yourself from personal attacks? --Jonathan Christensen 06:44, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There you go again, JC. You cannot seem to even move beyond your personal disputes with that other editor (and I don't care who or what he may have been - this is no place for a pissing match), nor do you seem to offer any reason in support of your position. Rangerdude 04:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this can do with being a separate article, it is about as notable as other examples given. ObsidianOrder 06:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

VfD Tag is Inappropriate per wikipedia policy

As noted on the VfD discussion page started by JC, his use of this tag is inappropriate for this article and in violation of wikipedia policy. As I understand it, JC wishes to merge this article with another. Misplaced Pages's policy on candidates VfD's - found at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy - explicitly EXCLUDES merger requests from article disputes that should be resolved by this mechanism. Barring any subsequent justification for it, the VfD tag should be removed for the reason that it misuses this option. Rangerdude 04:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the first time, yes, but there have already been two merges conducted on this page ( and ) but these have been reverted. Therefore I think it appropriate to put it to the community to decide. --bainer 06:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that both of those mergers have been attempted unilaterally and without concern for discussion or consensus by a single user. Misplaced Pages has separate policies for settling merge disputes. VfD, per its explicit guidelines, does not apply here. You should also note that the first of those mergers was made unilaterally within only 30 minutes of the article's creation and was not discussed with anybody. The second was made by the same individual a day later DESPITE several outstanding requests of him to discuss the matter before acting as he did. Rangerdude 14:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're right, WP:DP does say that articles that need to be merged shouldn't be put up for deletion, what it says is they should be merged. And that was done, twice, and then undone, twice. My point was that there is clearly not going to be a consensus here between two users, and so putting it on VfD would seem to be an appropriate way to get more users involved. Personally, I think that all elements of this page are either mergeable, or constitute a vanity page as per WP:VAIN. In any event, just let the VfD take its course, and the correct solution will be reached. --bainer 04:17, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was done twice unilaterally by one single problem poster and undone twice, each with a request to see the discussion page, after multiple people objected to his unilateral merger. This too was done in violation of wikipedia policy as the procedure for mergers is to place a merge tag on the top of the page in question then allow time for comments on the discussion page over how and if that article should be merged with another. JC did none of this. He simply changed it - the first time only half an hour after the article came up and the second time in complete disregard for the objections stated on the talk page. Furthermore, this discussion as you can plainly see has attracted more than just two users at an impasse. Rather, it has involved at least four separate users who have objected to JC's unilateral attempts to merge, another user who supports the concept of merging, and JC himself, who merged it twice but refuses to participate in a dialog over WHY he thinks it needs to be merged or reach any consensus. The fact that one single editor won't play ball with all the rest is not a legitimate reason to initiate a VfD, and especially one that is not in compliance with wikipedia policy. It reeks of not getting your way on the discussion forum and then trying to circumvent it elsewhere. If he wants to delete this article and make his case for deletion then he needs to restart the process from the beginning and make that the question to vote on through a VfD page. If he wants to merge the article and make his case for doing so then he needs to add a merge tag and make that the question to vote on right here at the discussion page. There's no use in having wikipedia policies if we're not going to abide by them, and right now JC isn't. Rangerdude 05:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Closed deletion listing

This article was listed for deletion on 16 April, 2005. The discussion was closed with the result of merge and redirect to Free Republic. This article will not be deleted, but the information in it will be merged into the target article and this article will be turned into a redirect to it. You can view the discussion, which is no longer live: Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/Jim Robinson. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:43, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Notice of Disagreement with this decision

It should be noted that this decision produces an unusual situation on wikipedia wherein this particular individual, Jim Robinson, is deemed insufficient to merit his own article whereas similarly situated persons famous for a political website and little more, among them Markos Moulitsas Zúniga, Matt Drudge, Charles Johnson, John_H._Hinderaker, and Scott_W._Johnson, are given a separate article though Robinson is not. In reviewing the page Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/Jim_Robinson one may plainly see that the majority of "votes" in favor of merging the two articles contained absolutely no reason or justification for this desire beyond stating the direction of a vote. At least one participant in this voting process, himself purportedly an administrator no less, initially cast a "vote" containing nothing more than childish profanity (see Misplaced Pages:Votes_for_deletion/Jim_Robinson&oldid=12960317) before modifying it to his final position to remove the article. Furthermore, as was pointed out on this talk page and the VfD page as well, the VfD process itself was initiated in violation of Misplaced Pages policy and against the standing consensus on this page at the time, which was to keep the article. Given these outstanding inconsistencies on wikipedia, the arbitrary nature of the merger decision, the lack of substantive rationale for that decision, and the failure of parties involved to address or offer any solution for the standing inconsistency between the approach taken to this article and the aforementioned articles of a similar nature, it is my hope and anticipation that this matter will be revisited in the near future. Rangerdude 20:40, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You have listed a number of objections:

1. Neutrality described Jim Robinson as a "notable asshole".
2. Other site-owners get their own articles.
3. Most votes gave no justification.
4. Listing for deletion was a violation of Misplaced Pages policy.

Well Neutrality was very naughty and you should consider taking the matter up with him. As I indicated earlier, VfD decisions are made on an article-by-article basis, so if you think there is a serious problem with Matt Drudge, say, having his own article, please list it on VfD with a view to merging and we'll see what the consensus is. Most votes gave no justification, but a VfD vote is at minimum merely an expression of personal preference. No justification is required. And finally, VfD is the main venue for decisions on merges, deletions and transwikis. It is eminently sensible to list on VfD if consensus on the article itself is against you, because then a wider section of the membership can look at it. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:33, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's the problem though - the wider membership does NOT actually look at the article itself - most are completely unfamiliar with what's been going on in the article's discussion page itself and just cast a yes/no vote after reviewing the thing for a matter of minutes if not seconds. Whatever your merge decision was based upon, I am not confident it was made with a full view as to the events that preceded it or the problems surrounding the attempt to separate the two articles. As I noted elsewhere, this entire process was initiated at the behest of one single disgruntled user who disagreed with the consensus here and who made multiple unilateral decisions to merge the article without the proper merge tag or period of discussion and in direct conflict with the consensus against him. NONE of these pertinent facts were ever addressed by proponents of a merger throughout either the VfD process or the discussion here. Furthermore, it is a straw man argument to suggest that Drudge et al should be examined in the case of their own article, as my intent is not to merge those other articles but rather to ascertain why an inconsistent set of principles are used to merge/separate articles on persons and their websites that are otherwise very similar. The issue is not those other articles, but inconsistency between your decision and those other articles and inconsistency of that sort diminishes the overall quality of wikipedia's content and writing. Rangerdude 02:21, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

• I am not sure why you keep insisting on making statements like As I noted elsewhere, this entire process was initiated at the behest of one single disgruntled user... but I'll point out -- once again -- that I was the one that suggested the VfD in the first place, not JC. · Katefan0 02:55, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

No, Katefan. You initially suggested a VfD under the mistaken belief that there was a deadlock here between people who favored and opposed a merger. You asserted at the time your belief that it was necessary to attract more attention to the issue. As I pointed out in my reply to you, you were mistaken in your counting of the votes as there was no deadlock and a clear majority favored retaining it. Furthermore, there was no deficit of attention as at least a half dozen different editors had weighed in in one form or another. You acknowledged this response with the following statement and dropped the VfD issue at that point:

Sorry, I take that back -- three people who are for separate articles and two against (I forgot to include the original reverter). Not sure who you count as a fourth but it doesn't look like it matters. Mea culpa.

Some time after that, JC returned and in his normal unilateral fashion tagged the article with a VfD request, thus initiating the VfD process. Talking about doing a VfD and then retracting it after it is pointed out that you've counted incorrectly is not the same thing as initiating the VfD and physically sticking a tag there. Rangerdude 04:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

• Are you serious? Whether you agree with the reasons why I suggested the VfD in the first place, I still suggested it originally. Two people can't initiate a VfD, so of course JC was the only one who functionally wrote {{subst:vfd}} into the page. But to suggest that he somehow acted "unilaterally" with no other form of support for the action is just wrong, no matter how much text you dump into this page. And just because I was mistaken in not counting User:Wakeforest as having an opinion doesn't mean I then changed my mind on the VfD. I always felt like it was the best course to take. · Katefan0 14:37, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

• • You certainly didn't pursue a VfD after that was pointed out to you, and by all indication your response beared the characteristics of an apology for its predecessor and a retraction where you conceded that "it doesn't look like it matters." You did not say "sorry, I was wrong but we should still do a VfD anyway." You left it at the equivalent of "sorry, I was wrong" and from there ceased pressing for a VfD. You only came to support one after that when JC initiated it on his own and the vote there started to shape in favor of your position. Rangerdude 16:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
    • I did not "only come to support one after ... JC initiated it on its own." One of my first comments on the talk page was to suggest VfD, and my opinion never changed on that score. You obviously have a significant investment in this article, for reasons that I can't fathom (of course, I would never be so arrogant as to suggest that I know those reasons better than you do) -- but I respectfully ask that you not put words in my mouth. I have made clear my position numerous times. You can try to twist it to your purposes all you like, but I know what my opinions have been and the intent of my own words and I'll thank you to respect them. · Katefan0 16:34, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

Well if you're saying now that it was three for separate articles, two against, this means there was no consensus--all the more reason to go to VfD. I just don't accept the argument on inconsistency--the last thing Misplaced Pages needs right now is to strive for consistency. We avoid making broad policy decisions such as "all articles on owners of blogs/cms's like Drudge Report, Free Republic etc must be merged with their respective websites unless they have significant fame elsewhere", but decide things on an article-by-article basis. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

So in other words, you reject a majority here in favor of keeping it as a lack of consensus yet you also base your decision to merge the article on a majority vote to merge it from VfD? No wonder you find the concept of consistency so troubling. Rangerdude 16:01, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Now you know that's wrong. We don't go by majorities on Misplaced Pages. Even by my stringent standards, 9 for and 3 against (75%, with no suggestion of voting iregularities) is a consensus; some administrators would have accepted even 8 for and 4 against (66%). Your "2 for and 3 against" (60% against) obviously didn't qualify as a consensus against the proposal even by the generous 66% interpretation, much less by mine. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:28, 1 May 2005 (UTC)