Misplaced Pages

Talk:Congress of Estonia: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 08:16, 17 May 2007 editPetri Krohn (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,089 edits →Disenfranchisement: + →Personal comments← Previous edit Revision as of 11:27, 17 May 2007 edit undo3 Löwi (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,223 edits acknowledgment of Estonia's independenceNext edit →
Line 29: Line 29:
Estonians had the option of following a "democratic" path to independence. The independence movement originated in the ]. The Supreme Soviet "affirmed" Estonia's independence on August 20. By September 17 it was a full member of the ]. The fast acceptance of Estonia into the UN, and the almost immediate acknowledgement of its independence was based on the premise, that the new Republic of Estonia was the ] of the ] (Oops! you ]!) and the ], inheriting its liabilities and citizens. Estonians had the option of following a "democratic" path to independence. The independence movement originated in the ]. The Supreme Soviet "affirmed" Estonia's independence on August 20. By September 17 it was a full member of the ]. The fast acceptance of Estonia into the UN, and the almost immediate acknowledgement of its independence was based on the premise, that the new Republic of Estonia was the ] of the ] (Oops! you ]!) and the ], inheriting its liabilities and citizens.


This was however unaceptable to the Congress, hence the constitutional changes of 1992. In fact Estonian ] list ] and ] (written by Mart Laar, I hear) as the first ] and ] of independent Estonia, signifying a ] between the independent Estonia of ] and ] This was however unacceptable to the Congress, hence the constitutional changes of 1992. In fact Estonian ] list ] and ] (written by Mart Laar, I hear) as the first ] and ] of independent Estonia, signifying a ] between the independent Estonia of ] and ]


-- ] 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC) -- ] 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


::It is rather dubious to claim that the international acknowledgment of Estonia's independence in August-September 1991 was based on the the premise that Estonia was the successor state of Estonian SSR (i.e. of a part of the USSR) "inheriting its liabilities and citizens". The very legality of Estonian SSR itself was not recognized by, e.g., US, PRC, and European Union, which all declared that Estonia was an illegally occupied territory (see, e.g., the 1983 resolution of the European Parliament). There has been no pressure whatsoever from other democratic nations on Estonia to inherit Soviet liabilities (e.g., commensurate proportion of the former USSR's foreign debt) or that Estonia should have granted automatic Estonian citizenship to all Soviet citizens who were resident in Estonia when USSR effectively ceased to exist on 1 January 1992. Acknowledgment by the mentioned fine and dandy organisation, UN, does not indicate anything whatsoever about any existing or new member state's democratic credentials. Membership in the European Union, on the other hand, tells a lot. Why the "poor and lowly" EU was so "naive" to let the "undemocratic Estonia" in as a member after having committed such "revolutionary breaches of legal continuity" is a question for people with Petri Krohn's "infinitely higher level of wisdom" to sort out. Cheers, --] 11:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:27, 17 May 2007

WikiProject iconEstonia Stub‑class
WikiProject iconCongress of Estonia is part of WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.EstoniaWikipedia:WikiProject EstoniaTemplate:WikiProject EstoniaEstonia
StubThis article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Disenfranchisement

Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to push disenfranchisement into this article, as he has done repeatedly before -- most notably in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. A new twist is sliding the evaluative claim of "restrictive citizenship laws" in.

I have removed both of these claims. As of 2007, the idea that immigrants would be "disenfranchised" by "restrictive citizenship laws" is not even a notable WP:POV in Estonian politics anymore, as it was in 1992, or when Max van der Stoel of the OCSE made his infamous declarations. It mainly a private POV of Petri Krohn, and does not deserve Misplaced Pages as its soapbox. Digwuren 18:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Disenfranchisement and denaturalisatrion (or what ever you want to call them) were not only the policy, but the cause of existance of the Congress. Disenfranchisement was achieved in two ways:
  1. By pressuring the Supreme Soviet into accepting citizenship and election laws that limited citizenship to jus sanguinis Estonians.
  2. By its existance as a shadow parliament elected among the enfranchised.
-- Petri Krohn 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S This article is about an organization that existed prior to 1993. What ever Estonians of today think is "notable" in the politics of Estonia today, or whatever "truth" they now subscribe to, should have no bearing to this article. -- Petri Krohn 07:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Personal comments

As you brought up the issue of my personality, I guess it gives me the right to respond. I have over 18,000 edits on Misplaced Pages. Very few are about subjects a have an opinion on, many are on subjects I did not even know about. You on the other hand registered to Misplaced Pages only after the Bronze Soldier controversy erupted. (If you are one of the editors from Estonia who contributed to the artilce under an anonymous IP, you do not seem to have any previous edits to your IP address either.) Your edits to Misplaced Pages so far seem to consist only of Estonian POV-pushing. Your chief concern seems to be removing any reference to the "disenfranchisement", or the rights (and lack of them) of Estonia's Russian minority from Misplaced Pages. Please stop. If you want to edit Misplaced Pages, please contribute something usefull.

As for pushing something into this article: I did not "push" anything into the article, I wrote it! You and your Estonian friends could (and should) have done it a long ago.

And now for the positive: Thanks for contributing the "Politics" section to the article. I fully agree with what you wrote. -- Petri Krohn 08:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

...some POV

Estonians had the option of following a "democratic" path to independence. The independence movement originated in the Communist Party of Estonia. The Supreme Soviet "affirmed" Estonia's independence on August 20. By September 17 it was a full member of the United Nations. The fast acceptance of Estonia into the UN, and the almost immediate acknowledgement of its independence was based on the premise, that the new Republic of Estonia was the successor state of the Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) (Oops! you deleted the article!) and the Estonian SSR, inheriting its liabilities and citizens.

This was however unacceptable to the Congress, hence the constitutional changes of 1992. In fact Estonian school book list Lennart Meri and Mart Laar (written by Mart Laar, I hear) as the first President and Prime Minister of independent Estonia, signifying a revolutionary breach of legal continuity between the independent Estonia of Arnold Rüütel and Edgar Savisaar

-- Petri Krohn 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


It is rather dubious to claim that the international acknowledgment of Estonia's independence in August-September 1991 was based on the the premise that Estonia was the successor state of Estonian SSR (i.e. of a part of the USSR) "inheriting its liabilities and citizens". The very legality of Estonian SSR itself was not recognized by, e.g., US, PRC, and European Union, which all declared that Estonia was an illegally occupied territory (see, e.g., the 1983 resolution of the European Parliament). There has been no pressure whatsoever from other democratic nations on Estonia to inherit Soviet liabilities (e.g., commensurate proportion of the former USSR's foreign debt) or that Estonia should have granted automatic Estonian citizenship to all Soviet citizens who were resident in Estonia when USSR effectively ceased to exist on 1 January 1992. Acknowledgment by the mentioned fine and dandy organisation, UN, does not indicate anything whatsoever about any existing or new member state's democratic credentials. Membership in the European Union, on the other hand, tells a lot. Why the "poor and lowly" EU was so "naive" to let the "undemocratic Estonia" in as a member after having committed such "revolutionary breaches of legal continuity" is a question for people with Petri Krohn's "infinitely higher level of wisdom" to sort out. Cheers, --3 Löwi 11:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Categories: