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Revision as of 23:56, 21 May 2007

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Signing your entries

Thank you for your contributions. Please note that you can use four tildes ~~~~ to automatically add a signature and time stamp to your comments in discussion pages. Happy editing! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Concerning article Prem Rawat: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Some other quotes

• In an interview with in 1973 Tom Snyder host of "The Tomorrow show" TV series, Snyder asked Prem Rawat: "Now I'm not trying to be disrespectful but' Ive got to ask you this question: Many of your followers say that you are God. What do you have to say about this?" To which Rawat replied: "No, I am not God. I am only a humble servant of God."

• At a press conference during the 1973 Millennium gathering, Rawat denied to the press that he believed himself to be the Messiah, characterizing himself instead "as a humble servant of God trying to establish peace in this world." A reporter then asked him about "a great contradiction" between what he said about himself and what his students were saying about him, and he responded by suggesting the reporter ask the devotees themselves about that. In a still-later speech, Rawat was to characterize as mistaken the early Western reaction to him upon his arrival, saying, "when people saw me at that time, they really didn't understand what it was all about."
  • He didn't answer the reporter's question. In fact, what his students said about him derived from claims he made about himself. The reporter was correct about there being a great contradiction. 69.251.176.184 01:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• In an interview with the Miami Magazine, in 1979, Prem Rawat spoke of what he believed God to be. In answer to the question, "If God is within, can't people experience God without the help of someone else?", Prem Rawat said, "God being within is one thing, and experiencing God is another. Just like having water in front of you is one thing, and drinking is another. God is within you. God is omnipresent."

• Millennium Press Conference

Q: Guru, you’ve said that it’s the presumption of the press among others that claim has been made on your behalf that you are the Messiah, and that is not your statement. I understand this is not your statement. I have read on several occasions that you have disavowed any such claim. The question I am interested in is, since the presumption and the confusion seems to arise because your followers, especially those who are involved in the publication of the magazines, have made this claim on your behalf, are there any plans that you have to put an end to this confusion and these presumptions by directing them to quit making such claims?

M: Only thing I can do is pass my comments about it, pass my statements about it, which I am as a matter of fact doing.

That you may want to add to the Prem Rawat article ~---

sorry for late reply

It was never my intention to misrepresent your opinion. Please tell me what is wrong with the follow (http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/3540.html) Andries 18:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean?Momento 08:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

This is what you wrote on my talk page "Andries your comment on the anti Prem Rawat forum (http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/3540.html) that "Misplaced Pages editors assert that 'Guru Maharaj ji is God' can refer to his father", is untrue and should be retracted.Momento 02:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)" I have no problem to leave this case for what it is if what I wrote there no longer bothers you. Andries 18:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong is that no Wiki editor has produced a quote of Guru Maharaji saying "I am God". And therefore no Wiki editors " assert that 'Guru Maharaj ji is God' can refer to his father". You discredit Wki and its editors when you say things that aren't true. The comment can stay on www.prem-rawat-talk.org, it is just one lie amongst many.Momento 21:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you. First of all I was sincerely convinced that I was telling the truth then, so it was not a lie, but at worst a mistake. Second of all, I do not think that it was a mistake, but I still think it is true what I wrote there. Prem Rawat has said basically that Guru Maharaj Ji is God e.g. when he said "To be here as individual and yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything; in which everything is and he is everything. Guru Maharaj Ji. The Lord. All-powerful." from "The Final Step" Malibu, California, June 11, 1978. From the Divine Times June/July Volume 7, Number 4 ~ The Guru Puja Special. Andries 22:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

How can you keep doing it Andries - "Prem Rawat has said basically that Guru Maharaj Ji is God." When he said over and over again a human being can't be god. Read the quote again.Momento 01:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not what he said, he said "God cannot be a human being. God is Light; God is power. God cannot talk." He was speaking of some concepts about God "up there" (for lack of a better phrase), not of God not being able to incarnate in human form. The above quote, which is one of many, clearly indicates that he has claimed to be the Lord incarnate. Just this year in India he said "If lord Krsn had appeared to the giant gathered armies at the battlefield as he did to Arjuna in his true form, the battle would have been over very quickly, but He did not, the lord comes to each individually." 69.251.176.184 01:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't feed the trolls

There is a saying in WP that says: Misplaced Pages:Don't feed the trolls. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Prem Rawat

Hello. Got your message on my talk page.
Concerning the article, I'd love to help out. However, this is not something I'm familiar with. Also, the article seems to be out of stubhood and going quite strong, despite the debates. Could you specify what exact part/section of the article you'd like me to help with? Or is there some point you are trying to convey but not being able to get across? Waiting for your reply. -- thunderboltz 11:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no need to use "vandalism" on an edit summary, unless it is obvious vandalism, Momento. Simply revert and explain why in talk. That user is a newbie and does not understand how WP works, despite his claims to the contrary, in addition to having a huge ax to grind given the embarrassing situation he put himself into when he missapropriated data and got dinged. So, we need to be patience and not allow him to disrupt the editing process. Best would be if he engages constructively, although I doubt that it will be that easy... ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding A RFA

Momento, for your information, there is an RFA Evidence Page involving Andries. SSS108 16:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Please be careful with Misplaced Pages:edit summaries

You removed the following information from the article Criticism of Prem Rawat] witht the edit summary "Removed original research"" This information is cited so it strikes me as not original research. I may miss something, but your edit summary strikes me as erroneous at best

A 1998 article in Rocky Mountain News referred to Elan Vital as a "cult"<ref>"Former Guru on a Different Mission", '']'', ], ].<br>Nowadays, former cult members estimate Maharaji (he's dropped the Guru from his name and simplified the spelling) has 100000 to 200000 followers...</ref>.

In case I am wrong, please explain. In case I am right I urgently request you to be more careful with your edit summaries. Andries 22:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact the former cult members estimate Maharaji's following doesn't imply criticism. To insert this in the criticism suggests that the editor believes it is criticism without any supporting evidence.Momento 22:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The label cult can be interpreted as criticism. Andries 22:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That would depend on its context and since the context is estimating followers there is no reason to see it as critical.Momento 22:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Mishler's claims

Work in progress.

1) Wiki BLP policy is that "editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources". So is Mishler a reliable source, failing any one of the following criteria is enough to fail Wiki's standards.

Bias of the originator about the subject—If an author has some reason to be biased, or admits to being biased, this should be taken into account when reporting his or her opinion. This is not to say that the material is not worthy of inclusion, but please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view. - Mishler is clearly biased.

Editorial oversight—A publication with a declared editorial policy will have greater reliability than one without, since the content is subject to verification.- Mishler is only quoted in 2 newspapers, neither paper corroborates his claims.

Corroboration—The conclusions match with other sources in the field which have been derived independently. If two or more independent originators agree, in a reliable manner, then the conclusions become more reliable. Care must be taken to establish that corroboration is indeed independent, to avoid an invalid conclusion based on uncredited origination.-No other source corrborates Mishler.

Recognition by other reliable sources—A source may be considered more reliable if another source which is generally considered reliable cites or recommends it. Sources which have been attacked, or have rarely or never been cited, may be more suspect.Melton mentions other Mishler claims but not these".

Age of the source and rate of change of the subject—Where a subject has evolved or changed over time, a long standing source may not be accurate with respect to the current situation. To interpret utility one must appreciate how the subject has changed and if that change has impacted any of the salient points of the source information. Historical or out-of-date sources may be used to demonstrate evolution of the subject but should be treated with caution where used to illustrate the subject. If no newer sources are available, it is reasonable to caveat use of sources with an indication of the age and the resulting reduction in reliability.- Mishler's claims are 30 years old

Persistence— If a reader goes to the cited source to validate a statement, or to gain further understanding of the topic, the form cited should remain stable, continuing to contain the information used by the editor to support the words. In this sense a book or journal citation is superior to an online source where the link may become broken. Some web resources have editorial policies which lead to a lack of persistence; therefore, web citations should be treated with caution.Mishler has been dead for 25 years

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources "Wiki policy is that exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to biographies of living people", Are Mishler's claims exceptional? They are according to Wiki policy. Exceptional claims are -

Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known - Mishler is the only one to claim Prem Rawat "had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol". Suprising since PR promotes a method for achieving inner peace.

Reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended. Mishler's claim that he left the group after trying to get the Maharaj Ji to tell his followers plainly that he was not God, is "out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest that PR had previously defended". See the numerous Wikiquotes where PR says that "a human being cannot be God".

NPOV - Undue weight = a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

A primary source is a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs; in other words, a source very close to the situation you are writing about. The term mainly refers to a document produced by a participant in an event or an observer of that event. Primary sources include official reports, letters, eyewitness accounts, autobiographies, statistics compiled by authoritative agencies, and court records. Experts usually have advanced training, and use as many different primary sources as are available so they can be checked against each other. Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research. Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources.

For the record...

Your recent edits to Prem Rawat aren't corrections of errors on my part. You seem to be trying to truncate or contextualize the information for the reader. The more recent edit appears to be satisfactory, but the initial one clearly puts the author's words in the wrong context (as he wasn't speaking of other sant mats, but of Rawat and his lineage). Please be mindful that changing words in this way can easily change the meaning of a sentence to the point that what you're saying is wrong, as was the case with the previous set of edits you made to that passage which I corrected. Cheers. Mael-Num 22:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Stay tuned folks. Mael-Num is wrong and is probably realising it just about now.Momento 07:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm realizing something, but I don't think it's what you think it is. Mael-Num 09:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If the root of realisation is "real", excellent.Momento 11:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop making personal attacks

Your conduct here appears to be a personal attack. Please review what Misplaced Pages says on this subject here. I'm posting this on your talk page in the hopes that we can resolve this situation amicably and without the need for escalation to administrative intervention. Thank you. Mael-Num 09:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

In Maerl-Num's three months at Wiki M-N has been cautioned for incivility twice, cautioned for personal attacks once, blocked for violating 3RR and recently accused me of being a sock puppet and a meat puppet with zero evidence. Momento 09:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Block joke

<<unblock|First and ultimate point I am not a sock puppet and ever since I created the Momento account I have never edited Wiki as anyone else. Therefore Betacommand is wrong. Second, I am a consistent editor of Prem Rawat articles and constantly involved in discussions on the talk pages. Two of the most consistant editors Jossi and Andries both rejected the sock puppet argument presented by Mael-Num. No other editor supported Mael-Num. Third, my accuser has been editing Wiki for just three months and has been cautioned for incivility twice, cautioned for personal attacks once, blocked for violating 3RR.Fourth, the only "evidence" presented is that I and VictorO edited a Prem Rawat article on the same day. A closer look will show that on one occassion we were editing different bits at exactly the same time - Here's VictorO editing Prem Rawat at 21:57, 20 January 2007 and Momento is editing Talk:Prem Rawat at 21:57, 20 January 2007. Fifth, VictorO was blocked from 22:21, 20 January 2007 by Sandstein until 10:22, 21 January 2007. During that period I made nearly 20 edits.This action by Betacommand is a joke and he has been criticised for incorrect blocking by others.>>

Reviewing admin: I support the unblock. I cannot unblock him myself as I am involved in editing that article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Here are the diffs for Momento's evidence above (sent by Momento to me via email):

• VictorO: 21:57, 20 January 2007 diff

• Momento: 21:57, 20 January 2007 diff

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Y	Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): Autoblock of Momento lifted or expired. Request handled by: ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The autoblock was removed by me after user was unblocked by User:Betacommand on 17:02, February 26, 2007 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

RFC Betacommand

Hi - there is no point adding a comment to this page, it is an archive, a historical record - people will revert or remove additional comments to that page. --Fredrick day 11:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Thank you for experimenting with Misplaced Pages by creating the page Editing Prem Rawat/lead. Your test worked, and the page that you created has been or soon will be deleted. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Peripitus (Talk) 09:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Prem Rawat/lead

Thank you for experimenting with Misplaced Pages by creating the page Editing Prem Rawat/lead. Your test worked, and the page that you created has been or soon will be deleted. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Lelkesa 09:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please agree with formal mediation and sign your agreement with it there Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Prem_Rawat Thanks. Andries 22:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC) I now included Vassyanana and Rumiton in the mediation and informed both of them. Please re-consider your rejection of mediation. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Prem_Rawat Thanks. Andries 09:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Prem Rawat. For the Mediation Committee, ^demon This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Keeping cool

I understand the discussion over at Talk:Prem Rawat can get heated and frustrating. However, please try to refrain from snarky comments like this. They only serve to bait people who are already hot under the collar. Please try to keep a polite tone, even when you feel flabbergasted or offended. Thank you for all your effort on the article. I look forward to your further contributions. Be well!! Vassyana 06:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about Rawat on the internet

Momento, it seems that you try to hurt my credibility by writing that I post on the ex-premie forum. Where else on the internet is there open and frank discussion of Prem Rawat? I was unable to find it, except on the ex-premie forum. Andries 14:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

That you choose to write on an anti-Rawat is as relevant as Jossi having a potential COI.Momento 21:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Where can I write on a more neutral forum? Andries 21:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea where a "more neutral forum" is. I have no interest in discussing Rawat on an internet forum of any sort.Momento 21:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You have made three reverts at Prem Rawat. Please avoid violating the rules. Vassyana 00:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not revert three times. In the context of the English Misplaced Pages three revert rule, a revert is defined as any change to an article that partially or completely goes back to any older version of an article. I made an edit to a long standing section based on "exceptional claims" and "BLP" which Andries immediately reverted to a previous version. Andries made another edit which I allowed and after discussion in the talk page I again removed only the material that I believe contravenes "exceptional claims" and "BLP". Andries reverted a second time and added some more material which I again allowed stand. I then checked and translated the original source material and found evidence that Andries had deleted crucial material from the quote and after discussing in tallk, I removed only the material that I believe contravenes "exceptional claims" and "BLP", Andries reverted for a third time. But thanks for your intervention anyway.Momento 02:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Marcellino, Dennis Why Are We Here?: The Scientific Answer to This Age-Old Question (That You Don't Need to Be a Scientist to Understand) (1996) p.129 Lighthouse Publishing, ISBN 0945272103
2. Miami Magazine, 1979
3. Press conference, Houston, Texas, Nov 9, 1973