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| ::Please remain civil here - personal attacks (even broad-based ones) aren't a good way to go. The point remains that just because an article is interesting doesn't mean that it's good to be kept. Likewise, if there are reliable, neutral and non-trivial sources, this article will be kept. ] - ] 09:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | ::Please remain civil here - personal attacks (even broad-based ones) aren't a good way to go. The point remains that just because an article is interesting doesn't mean that it's good to be kept. Likewise, if there are reliable, neutral and non-trivial sources, this article will be kept. ] - ] 09:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::I'm not making the point that the article should be kept because it's "interesting". In fact, due to all of the IMNSHO ''rubbish'' guidelines, it's almost impossible to *make* an article interesting anymore. "Reliable", "neutral", "trivial" -- they're all a great, steaming load of euphamistic arbitrary rubbish excuses for zotting out things one doesn't want to see, and, more importantly, doesn't want ''anyone ELSE'' to see.--] 08:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC) | :::I'm not making the point that the article should be kept because it's "interesting". In fact, due to all of the IMNSHO ''rubbish'' guidelines, it's almost impossible to *make* an article interesting anymore. "Reliable", "neutral", "trivial" -- they're all a great, steaming load of euphamistic arbitrary rubbish excuses for zotting out things one doesn't want to see, and, more importantly, doesn't want ''anyone ELSE'' to see.--] 08:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Strong Delete''' If this website is worthy of keeping, then I can bring tons more that are 'emotionally' favorable to many folks' own biases. No one refers to jihadwatch as a 'source' of any pertinent, valid or objective information. Rather, it is considered just a stop for bashing the "other" and spewing hatred. In fact, I would be fine if it was a fountain of hate, but if it is notable and referred to by secondary sources. That is not happening. ] 12:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | *'''Strong Delete''' If this website is worthy of keeping, then I can bring tons more that are 'emotionally' favorable to many folks' own biases. '''No one refers to jihadwatch as a 'source' of any pertinent, valid or objective information.''' Rather, it is considered just a stop for bashing the "other" and spewing hatred. In fact, I would be fine if it was a fountain of hate, but if it is notable and referred to by secondary sources. That is not happening. ] 12:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :There's no need to tell demonstrable falsehoods like that to buttress your "Strong Delete"; it'll get counted not matter how rational, spurious, or entirely absent the supporting argument is. (Tell all your friends! Facts and history are now ''up to a vote'', so don't delay!)--] 08:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Keep''' True, nobody looks at JW for unbiased information. But JW is notable as the most important source of strong biased opinion on the issues involved, and is quoted as such. The evidence for this in the article is sufficient. The standard is sourceable, not sourced, so if one thinks there are sources, that's a reason to keep. 06:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)''']''' | *'''Keep''' True, nobody looks at JW for unbiased information. But JW is notable as the most important source of strong biased opinion on the issues involved, and is quoted as such. The evidence for this in the article is sufficient. The standard is sourceable, not sourced, so if one thinks there are sources, that's a reason to keep. 06:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)''']''' | ||
| ::*'''Comment''' Wow. You're good! I'm impressed... librarian, eh ? DGG ftw :-) --] 06:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC) | ::*'''Comment''' Wow. You're good! I'm impressed... librarian, eh ? DGG ftw :-) --] 06:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 08:43, 27 May 2007
Jihad Watch
AfDs for this article:Fails WP:WEB: no reliable, external, second hand sources whatsoever. The article seems to have to survived the previous nomination on it's Alexa ranking and amount of google hits alone, which is completely against deletion policy. The first requirement of WP:WEB: "The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself". Remember that other blogs are not WP:RS, per that policy. Mackan 09:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete The first Afd was an exasperating read that basically concluded the article should be kept on the basis of google hits and "I've heard of it" arguments. The article seems to be "referenced" by first party materials. I don't see any reliable sources. Deranged bulbasaur 10:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. This reference is from Reason magazine. Daphne Merkin wrote about Jihad Watch in her column 'The Way We Live Now' in the New York Times on August 15 2004, though I can't link to it as it's behind the subscriber wall. She writes 'To this end we have been glued to the Internet throughout this long hot summer of beheadings and terrorist scares, checking out Web sites with names likes Blogs of War, Jihad Watch and Above Top Secret.' Nick mallory 10:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Reason Online reference gives only a rather trivial mention, made in passing. The NY mention is extremely trivial, as it only mentions the name of the blog. Mackan 10:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - The author is notable, the blog is not. At most, create a short section on Robert Spencer regarding the blog. Tarc 13:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- keep - blog is extremely notable. why go through a second AfD? Misheu 21:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- How is it notable? --Haemo 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Without wasting too much time on looking things up for everybody - there is a catch 22 here when blogs which are well known and respected in the blogosphere are being attacked for notability. A blog by essence is a person who does not go through the regular press and feels that the regular press does not give voice to his ideas. It would be very rare for blogs which go against the mainstream to appear in the mainstream, and yet some blogs are immensely popular. Why is a blog notable only if some second writer in the New York Times decided to write an editorial on it and not if it's constantly quoted in other blogs and its opinions referred to everywhere? From my point of view, it's notable since when I look up information on Islam, I run into it quite often. This entry went through an AfD less than half a year ago, and there's no reason it should go through it again.Misheu 05:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the "mainstream media" has not neglected blogs - they are routinely featured, and mentioned, on radio, in press, and on TV. Wolf Blitzer has a whole "blog-watch" section - "The Situation Online". The point is that blogs need reliable sources to back up their notability - and the key to reliability is oversight; blogs are really, at their heart, nothing more than a special personal website where someone talks about their thoughts. There's no fact checking, no editorial oversight - and thus we can't call them "reliable sources". Think about it this way - blogs are like people talking; they could be influential, well-spoken people, but they're still just people talking. They could be mistaken, they could be inaccurate. They could be outright lying. Without any oversight, we have no way to know. As such, blogs aren't reliable sources - well, most blogs. If someone is talked about on blogs, that's really not any evidence of notability; any more than someone being discussed on Myspace, or Facebook, is evidence of notability. If someone is truly notable, they should have reliable third party souces about them - and the simple fact is that your assertion that the "mainstream media" refuses to cover blogs is not true. Look at someone like Michele Malkin - she has reliable sources; why doesn't this one? --Haemo 05:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- "Oversight" is just code for argumentum ad verecundiam logical fallies. The New York Times has been lying for eighty straight years, and enshrines its lies in the form of Walter Duranty's Pulitzer prize. Regards Malkin; she plays ball by staying within the bounds of criticism permitted by the Coke & Pepsi Party.--Mike18xx 17:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the "mainstream media" has not neglected blogs - they are routinely featured, and mentioned, on radio, in press, and on TV. Wolf Blitzer has a whole "blog-watch" section - "The Situation Online". The point is that blogs need reliable sources to back up their notability - and the key to reliability is oversight; blogs are really, at their heart, nothing more than a special personal website where someone talks about their thoughts. There's no fact checking, no editorial oversight - and thus we can't call them "reliable sources". Think about it this way - blogs are like people talking; they could be influential, well-spoken people, but they're still just people talking. They could be mistaken, they could be inaccurate. They could be outright lying. Without any oversight, we have no way to know. As such, blogs aren't reliable sources - well, most blogs. If someone is talked about on blogs, that's really not any evidence of notability; any more than someone being discussed on Myspace, or Facebook, is evidence of notability. If someone is truly notable, they should have reliable third party souces about them - and the simple fact is that your assertion that the "mainstream media" refuses to cover blogs is not true. Look at someone like Michele Malkin - she has reliable sources; why doesn't this one? --Haemo 05:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Without wasting too much time on looking things up for everybody - there is a catch 22 here when blogs which are well known and respected in the blogosphere are being attacked for notability. A blog by essence is a person who does not go through the regular press and feels that the regular press does not give voice to his ideas. It would be very rare for blogs which go against the mainstream to appear in the mainstream, and yet some blogs are immensely popular. Why is a blog notable only if some second writer in the New York Times decided to write an editorial on it and not if it's constantly quoted in other blogs and its opinions referred to everywhere? From my point of view, it's notable since when I look up information on Islam, I run into it quite often. This entry went through an AfD less than half a year ago, and there's no reason it should go through it again.Misheu 05:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep - The jihad against Misplaced Pages articles critical of Islam continues....--Mike18xx 21:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please avoid personal attacks against people who disagree with you; avoid the use of sarcastic language and stay cool.Mackan 22:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - I'm seeing a lot of "KEEP NOTABLE!" and "WHY DO YOU HATE THE SUBJECT" arguments here, but not any reliable sources. --Haemo 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Alexa rank for www.jihadwatch.org is 38,363 which seems too low to establish notability. Carlossuarez46 00:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - anything in the top 50,000 is impressive --ProtectWomen 07:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean to say that we are destined to have 50,000 web page articles because they are "impressive"? NOT! Being able to tie a cherry stem in a knot with your tongue is impressive, but it's not notable. Carlossuarez46 17:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - anything in the top 50,000 is impressive --ProtectWomen 07:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep as notable blog as per sources. Capitalistroadster 03:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Which sources? --Haemo 04:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete unless there are reliable, non-trivial sources provided. As at right now, there are neither. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. Joining in the chorus that keeping would require the citation of independent sources establishing notability. I've actually heard of this blog, so I suspect there might be such sources; if citation is beefed up, drop me a note and I'll consider opposing deletion. JamesMLane t c 06:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - Survived first AfD and will survive this one. The website is notable enough that opponents would like to see article deleted. Apparently some others suggested merge at the first AfD (into Robert Spencer). The site on its own has been mentioned on many radio shows (where Spencer has been interviewed). As the article stands by itself, it doesn't appear to violate any policy. It is brief and to the point. --ProtectWomen 06:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's brief and to the point, but entirely lacking in independent, non-trivial sources at the moment. If there are non-trivial mentions of the website on radio shows, this would be the kind of thing which might sway people advocating deletion. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- I remember, back in the hazy mists of yore, when Misplaced Pages containing all kinds of interesting articles -- instead of only articles deemed mentionable by FFC-licensed dinosaur paleo-media that nobody with a computer and a room-temperature IQ has relied on for information for at least ten years running.--Mike18xx 09:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please remain civil here - personal attacks (even broad-based ones) aren't a good way to go. The point remains that just because an article is interesting doesn't mean that it's good to be kept. Likewise, if there are reliable, neutral and non-trivial sources, this article will be kept. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not making the point that the article should be kept because it's "interesting". In fact, due to all of the IMNSHO rubbish guidelines, it's almost impossible to *make* an article interesting anymore. "Reliable", "neutral", "trivial" -- they're all a great, steaming load of euphamistic arbitrary rubbish excuses for zotting out things one doesn't want to see, and, more importantly, doesn't want anyone ELSE to see.--Mike18xx 08:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please remain civil here - personal attacks (even broad-based ones) aren't a good way to go. The point remains that just because an article is interesting doesn't mean that it's good to be kept. Likewise, if there are reliable, neutral and non-trivial sources, this article will be kept. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete If this website is worthy of keeping, then I can bring tons more that are 'emotionally' favorable to many folks' own biases. No one refers to jihadwatch as a 'source' of any pertinent, valid or objective information. Rather, it is considered just a stop for bashing the "other" and spewing hatred. In fact, I would be fine if it was a fountain of hate, but if it is notable and referred to by secondary sources. That is not happening. Abureem 12:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- There's no need to tell demonstrable falsehoods like that to buttress your "Strong Delete"; it'll get counted not matter how rational, spurious, or entirely absent the supporting argument is. (Tell all your friends! Facts and history are now up to a vote, so don't delay!)--Mike18xx 08:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Keep True, nobody looks at JW for unbiased information. But JW is notable as the most important source of strong biased opinion on the issues involved, and is quoted as such. The evidence for this in the article is sufficient. The standard is sourceable, not sourced, so if one thinks there are sources, that's a reason to keep. 06:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)DGG
- Comment Wow. You're good! I'm impressed... librarian, eh ? DGG ftw :-) --ProtectWomen 06:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- What? You can't seriously be contenting that this is a valid argument for keeping this. Sourceable does not mean that "people think there are sources" - it means that people have found sources but they have not been included in the article. No one has demonstrated that reliable sources exist for this article that assert or support notability. --Haemo 07:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- More to the point, the fact that the blog itself is biased is neither here nor there (if we only had articles about unbiased things, there'd be no articles on any politicians for a start). What is required is unbiased information demonstrating that this site is in some way notable. Additionally, it should be noted that (as I believe UncleG has said before), the closing admin doesn't work part-time as a verification source. If the article is sourceable, it behooves those calling it that to find these sources. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I added references to "Jihad Watch" showing the site is notable. CAIR thinks its notable enough, and I just brought some of their references to this blog. Misheu 08:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any non-trivial coverage of JW in those new references. I see a collection of things which say "Robert Spencer runs Jihad Watch" (one such source saying so once off its own bat and then again when it lists what Spencer is when he responds to a question) and one thing saying that Horowitz is likewise involved. There's an article on the Muhammad cartoons which says in passing that someone said something about it on JW and an article from CAIR saying that because Spencer spoke at a place, so too should someone holding a different view. None of these are non-trivial, and one could argue that some of them are hardly even about JW in the first place. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I beg to differ. I see CAIR actively watching Jihad Watch and putting out press releases on its activities. They bring whole quotes from the site. I then see CNN deciding to introduce Robert Spencer as the Director of Jihad Watch. there's another link to C-SPAN with the same intro. In other words, Jihad Watch is the reason he's being interviewed. It's an important enough blog that both CNN and C-SPAN ASSUME everybody knows what they're talking about. And then there's the link from The Guardian who call Jihad Watch a "notoriously Islamophobic website" (no mention to Spencer there at all). So what if the article is not about Jihad Watch. It was obviously important enough to mention. That's the point of bringing sources here. Misheu 10:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm prepared to agree on the CAIR site, although I'd hasten to point out that this is only one source. If there are more press releases about it, they'd definitely help things here. The CNN transcripts don't wash with me, I'm afraid. They consist of someone being introduced as "the director of JW", and then having that as their identifier the first time they speak. News networks do this kind of thing with a whole host of bodies, both notable and non-notable: "Joe Bloggs, the President of Relevant Special Interest Group, joins us live in the studio". That doesn't mean that Relevant Special Interest Group is notable, and it may not even mean that Bloggs is notable. Spencer may not have been interviewed were it not for the site (he's written a book or two, so he might get interviews based on that), but he's being interviewed as himself. The Guardian link doesn't count at all - the article is about a related issue and mentions JW in passing, so it's not a non-trivial reference. "So what if the article is not about Jihad Watch"? So the article isn't a non-trivial source, that's the bottom line. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I guess I'll leave that up to whoever decides on these things, since we obviously don't agree. If Jihad Watch hadn't been notable, CNN would not use that as a way to introduce Robert Spencer. Misheu 12:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- CNN, August 10, 2006 (I suggest that interested parties archive that video as evidence that it actually happened.)--Mike18xx 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Nobody's saying that it didn't happen. The question is whether the fact that he was introduced as heading the group counts as a non-trivial mention. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it is; virtually no one would know who Spencer is (and subsequently run off to buy his books) were it not for the site. In the case of Faith Freedom International and its founder, it's the site that has a Misplaced Pages entry while its founder does not.--Mike18xx 08:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Nobody's saying that it didn't happen. The question is whether the fact that he was introduced as heading the group counts as a non-trivial mention. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- CNN, August 10, 2006 (I suggest that interested parties archive that video as evidence that it actually happened.)--Mike18xx 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I guess I'll leave that up to whoever decides on these things, since we obviously don't agree. If Jihad Watch hadn't been notable, CNN would not use that as a way to introduce Robert Spencer. Misheu 12:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm prepared to agree on the CAIR site, although I'd hasten to point out that this is only one source. If there are more press releases about it, they'd definitely help things here. The CNN transcripts don't wash with me, I'm afraid. They consist of someone being introduced as "the director of JW", and then having that as their identifier the first time they speak. News networks do this kind of thing with a whole host of bodies, both notable and non-notable: "Joe Bloggs, the President of Relevant Special Interest Group, joins us live in the studio". That doesn't mean that Relevant Special Interest Group is notable, and it may not even mean that Bloggs is notable. Spencer may not have been interviewed were it not for the site (he's written a book or two, so he might get interviews based on that), but he's being interviewed as himself. The Guardian link doesn't count at all - the article is about a related issue and mentions JW in passing, so it's not a non-trivial reference. "So what if the article is not about Jihad Watch"? So the article isn't a non-trivial source, that's the bottom line. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I beg to differ. I see CAIR actively watching Jihad Watch and putting out press releases on its activities. They bring whole quotes from the site. I then see CNN deciding to introduce Robert Spencer as the Director of Jihad Watch. there's another link to C-SPAN with the same intro. In other words, Jihad Watch is the reason he's being interviewed. It's an important enough blog that both CNN and C-SPAN ASSUME everybody knows what they're talking about. And then there's the link from The Guardian who call Jihad Watch a "notoriously Islamophobic website" (no mention to Spencer there at all). So what if the article is not about Jihad Watch. It was obviously important enough to mention. That's the point of bringing sources here. Misheu 10:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any non-trivial coverage of JW in those new references. I see a collection of things which say "Robert Spencer runs Jihad Watch" (one such source saying so once off its own bat and then again when it lists what Spencer is when he responds to a question) and one thing saying that Horowitz is likewise involved. There's an article on the Muhammad cartoons which says in passing that someone said something about it on JW and an article from CAIR saying that because Spencer spoke at a place, so too should someone holding a different view. None of these are non-trivial, and one could argue that some of them are hardly even about JW in the first place. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I added references to "Jihad Watch" showing the site is notable. CAIR thinks its notable enough, and I just brought some of their references to this blog. Misheu 08:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Since Dhimmiwatch has been merged with Jihadwatch, then notable Dhimmiwatch mentions should count. I've added a couple to the Dhimmiwatch section.--Mike18xx 08:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)