Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:44, 15 May 2005

Church doctrine and personal theology

I'm reposting my query from the Benedict main page:

Dear all,

I feel somewhat uneasy about a lack of distinction between Ratzinger's personal emphasis and stances as a theologian and his pronouncements as head of the CDF. Not that there is a disagreement, but I don't think it appropriate to e.g. list his condemnation of Boff or of female priests as a personal view. This is why I moved these two to the CDF section. But this might be appropriate for other paragraphs as well, e.g. the Homosexuality paragraph (but needs rephrasing to start with statement, not with critics) or the abortion paragraph.

Also, if anyone has greater knowledge about the theological writing of Ratzinger please post it.

Of course the creation of the subpage makes it more complicated. Maybe we should put in some passage here, distinguishing the two. Str1977 09:46, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thats fine with me. Though I do apologize if this sub-page put a wrench in anyone's plans, but if yall want to link to the main page in the various passages, thats cool with me. I am mainly just watching the page for vandalism. Zscout370 (talk) 18:06, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dear all again, I moved some stuff over from the main page. It still needs some editing, as some things are now double. I will look into it again, but also feel free to edit and add what you think right. Str1977 20:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear all,

I am removing the Uganda reference as it is disputed, in the AIDS section, if one looks at the letters responding to the washington post/times? article, it is claimed that the study cited was only done in the Rakai district which accounts for 2% of the population, and is not representative of the general trends in Uganda.

Flamekeeper says, I ask

Flamekeeper added this paragraph to the "Abortion and politics" section.

The basis for the injunction against co-operation with Evil lies in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae and comes from Romans 3,8. It is an injunction whose application applies to actions whether personal, family or societal and forbids the knowing choice of an evil course even in order to achieve any subsequent known good. This teaching is the bedrock of Christian morality and provides the official position of the Roman Catholic Church on issues relating to Human Life. The controversy generated by this reference to Evil in 2004 , adds to the controversy concerning the proposed Beatification of the wartime Pope Pius XII.

I'd like to ask anyone to comment, whether his observation that the then Cardinal Ratzinger's statement towards elections really had the effect he describes - not just being controversial, but drawing attention (other than FK's) to this principle or Pius XII. PS: Of course, Flamekeeper, we know you think it's true so don't bother to post here. Str1977 22:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Another question is, whether it really is important for what reason a topic is brought up in discussion. Str1977 23:15, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask some questions within the text of Flamekeeper's paragraph...

"The basis for the injunction against co-operation with Evil lies in the Encyclical Humanae Vitae and comes from Romans 3,8. " Who says that this is the basis? Where do they say it? Can the place where 'they' say it be cited?

"It is an injunction whose application applies to actions whether personal, family {familial} or societal and forbids the knowing choice of an evil course even in order to achieve any subsequent known good. This teaching is the bedrock of Christian morality and provides the official position of the Roman Catholic Church on issues relating to Human Life." See question above.

"The controversy generated by this reference to Evil in 2004, adds to the controversy concerning the proposed Beatification of the wartime Pope Pius XII." What controversy? Who is talking about it besides Flamekeeper? Why does it add to the Beatification controversy specifically?

Just some thoughts. plain_regular_ham 01:32, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Let the church answer this.Flamekeeper 09:41, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph in question in Humanae Vitae is:

Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it It then cites Romans 3.8 which says:

Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. Romans 3.

Who has stated, Flamekeeper, that what you detail is the "bedrock of Christian morality"?

And, what controversy? Who besides you, Flamekeeper, sees a controversy in this?

Not trying to attack you here, but some important elements are missing from your paragraph. plain_regular_ham 13:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The question is I suppose whether Pius XII tolerated Naziism or co-operated with it in full knowledge of everything that it was going to do. The latter involves a level of foresight that would be truly astounding. JASpencer 12:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

JASpencer 12:28, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Much study of that refers to Churchmen and statements then, read up Guenter Lewy.

It seems to me that if these statements are written in an encyclical like that, they are pretty foundational to Catholic morality. A lot of other Christians would agree with them too, though not universally. Deitrich Bonhoffer clearly didn't. However there is a big difference between doing an evil action in the expectation of a good result, and tolerating evil in the expectation of preventing a greater evil. Almost all Christians would probably agree that the former was allowed only in exceptional circumstances; many would say it is never allowed. DJ Clayworth 14:18, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree that Bonhoffer might need to come into focus theologically. I come back to this as I'm asked . Humanae Vitae see Section 14 paragraph 3 second sentence goes In truth, if it is sometimes licit to tolerate a lesser evil in order to avoid a lesser evil ot to promote a greater good,(17) it is not licit,even for the gravest reasons, to do evil so that good may follow therefrom;(18) that is, to make into the object of a positive act of the will something which is intrinsically disorder, and hence unworthy of the human person,even when the intention is to safeguard or promote individual, family or social well-being. Footnote 17 , Cf Pius XII,alloc.to the National Congress of the Union of Catholic Jurists, Dec. ^, 1953 in AASXLV(1953)pp.798-799. Footnote 18. Cf.Rom.3:8.

The other answer is that No. I am the first to quote the law in reference to knowing, pre-meditated collaboration with Evil (the Nazis) by these churchmen three at this time, 1932-1933. Historians limit themselves to the facts, not to the law. I follow humbly in the wake of true historians as does a sparrow after crumbs but I am not the history nor the historians. There is a saying that You can achieve anything in this world, if you do not require to take the credit and this combines with the productive power of open software in the Misplaced Pages to enable what up until now has been fractured ( history ) to link with what is morality (law).

I am afraid to have to add that my inescapable conclusion is not only that that which user JASpencer finds astounding if true, but is worse. It is that beyond the action being calculated openly as in the interests of the Church in fighting Communism , that by subterfuge the clinching dimension was a quid pro quo between Kaas, Pacelli and the frail Pontiff Pius XI. History does not single out the last, I will remark. However history remarks on the remarkable rise of Pacelli to over-whelming influence(upon the frail Pontiff) and remarks on the immediate exile of Kaas from a leading public office, into a position of lets say hardly modest station within the Vatican. Kaas continued his relations with Germany to the extent that he re-appears in wartime dealings had by the Vatican with a strand of the German Widerstand or resistance. However my saddest accusation raises the corruptible nature of the institutions of the Church, it is that far and beyond the cynicism which transgressed the moral laws of the Church law, lies a more banal , personal cynicism between Kaas and Pacelli. They had their own little Vatican putsch amongst so many others of that time, such that no one particualrly remembered, for the Pacelli pay off is separated to his actual accession.

This should interest our new german Pope who inherits above all others the abilities necessary to steer the Church through these particular rocky waters emanating from this stage in her long history. I seriously foresee that this will help the world - that settling this will enable the Church and other religions to avail of a truer position in the modern world. One based on clear visions of morality which can be shared truly between races and without falling prey to imperialism or tyranny. The consequences upon this strategic facilitation of tyranny have very greatly shaped the actual panorama of the present world. As we confront the future we will need the reconciliation attendant upon the acknowledgement of this truth.

I would like to bolster the present Pontiff, that he should not in any way see any of this as an attack upon himself or his ministries , nor upon the relevant law, nor upon his valid guidance for its promotion. Unfortunately for him the Malthusian circumstances of this interregnum of Eras now presents the gravest difficulties. Only a reconciliation with truth in respect of the past will enable the institution to firmly uphold the real essence of its mission .

I feel but do not know -as only with death or some gift of God whom none of us is vouchsafed to have, but feel in my heart, that Humanae Vitae is right. Despair at the living conditions of humanity can turn citizens to a Hitler or all manners of solutions, but none of these are the real problem. The real problem is that as we are incorporated, we are sparated from our spirit. Our incorporation in life allows us the chance to make of our spirit a communication. As spirits we do not communicate-which is why we hear nothing sensible back from the dead . But go we do, and my heart feeling , rational as this incorporation is, is that in so far as Humanae Vitae encourages birth , even into a pitiable life, it is correct.

Howsoever piteably stricken or unwanted or starved is this life yet we treasure it politically (as we do in partial measure, nationally and through aid and the UN organisations and, yes, the Churches). Unfortunately for the Pontiff, in the absence of incarnated proof supporting the existence of Spirit, we simply prefer to dwell as much as we can in the present Now of Life, revelling in its aberrance from dis-incarnation, revelling that we can touch and struggle and hear and run and see into each others eyes. We forget and we wish not to remember the silence from whence we came nor whence we go. And this will continue but maybe not for very much longer. So I say that we should prepare here on earth , now, the way to this. Reconciliation is required and truth is per se universal. We go into a new era now and it is time to open the heart and the doors and the cupboards and cabinets and reveal such as we discuss, that was millions of peoples lives. We need to reach out to those extra millions of spirits who were tortured and burnt and starved and frightened to death because of that tyranny in question then, and opening the tragedies of the past that we might better share the now, share that life in the lives that are here . Law must be true or must be wrong and a law that applies as to life as to spirit, must be right. So . ... Do it I plead, Apply it now, that we may believe. Flamekeeper 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Given the theological question raised shouldn't there be now?

I admit its all my fault, my suggestion alone, my pin-pointing towards incredible un-reconstructed hypocrisy but - just the question of the Law ; not the co-operation question nor the Beatification, nor the Jewish discontent, nor' the American Socialist controversy.

The Law, its just Flamekeeper, shining a light. On hypocrisy and corruption in the Vatican. On Vatican legal mis-maneagement. On the futility of claims by human representatives to infallibility. On the moral wrong of protecting the divine right of God before the civil rights of humanity. Herein lies the resurgence of that other question regarding the separation of Church and State. It is herewith apparent that the Church does not exhibit the slightest degree of awareness or responsiblity, nor it's members nor its apologists nor its theoreticians nor jurists. A Church that appears immune to the contents of its infallible encyclicals - Yes ! Pius XII was infallible - he claimed it formally.

Go on - he needs prosecution, conviction against the Law and excommunication or the equivalent for the dead .

The Pontiff must awake, because his job is on the line - he will become illegitimate will he not? The end of the Church as we know it : the beginning of the Law? Welcome to the new era.

I predict that Papal elections will have all Cardinals wearing plastic sensorized see-through smocks revealing them in all their nakedness and humanity within the new Church, such that their very emotions register automatic tonal variations according to their mood. Man will demand and receive the chance to really see the Holiness of the Pacellis amongst us, and of the Saints true. It will be good and more infallible. Seriousness will however divorce music and singing and prayer from the words of truth. All such dangerous and indeed Nazi-like affectations shall be excluded from the workings of legality that are from now the principal requirement for leadership. Thus will the lead, taken by the Society in the stylisation and presentation (syndicated very efficiently as we saw) of this last little Conclave, be taken to its conclusion in time.

However shocking might appear this course and my words, this is a joyful prospect compared to the thoroughly evil illegality of the past which assisted towards it is still at least believed 40,000,000 European and 295,000 American war dead, as well as 5,662,000 Jews and 1,000,000+ Roma. A lot of death certificates, a lot of Law. See-through cassocks, I predict . Flamekeeper 01:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear all,the objective of this talk section, however, was to ask, whether the paragraph in question was relevant in the sense that your observation that there is controversy stemming not only from the CDF's statement regarding elections, but from any relation to Humanae Vitae or the events of 1933 (a discussion of these has been donee at Pius XII talk, so no need to repeat it all here). That's my query: is there such a controversy (as Flamekeeoer says) or isn't there (as I think).

Dear Flamekeeper, please respect that this is the objectve of the query. Nothing else.Str1977 21:35, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

CDF? So you wish to know what the american socialists say about church interference to justify my paragraph..Ill quote then? How the controversy is viewed by Jewish commentators in regard to both Pacelli and The law( about complicity in Evil) together? Your precise language as phrased is unclear. I must say that your language is exceptionally clear sometimes and more fuzzy at others exhibiting a curious dichotomy. You are powerfully well informed , so can we analyse again the situation as regards legitimacy. You referred to posthumous correction earlier so can you relate this to Pacelli and what could be the result of censoring his meditation and action ? I broaden the enquiry but will answer, when I understand you, since no one else seems to be queuing up. Flamekeeper 09:06, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Three things:

1. Statements on my query: - Is the CDF's statement in question based on the principle in Romans 3? Yes, and this can be included in a subclause. - Is the statement based on Humanae vitae? No, HV was limited to contraception and only bases itself on Romans 3 – hence both the statement and HV are based on Romans 3. - Did the statement cause attention to HV? I think no. Hence it's not relevant to this entry IMO. - Did the statement cause attention to Pius XII? I think no. Hence it's not relevant to this entry IMO.

2. You say my language is fuzzy sometimes. Please direct me to the points you are unclear about and I'll try to clarify. What do you mean by legitimacy?

3. Regarding any trials/corrections/enquiries: Of course any question is open to enquiry by historians, whether outside or inside the Vatican. Sources will be disclosed in time, in line with the rules to protect living people (just as any other archive too). There can be no posthumous excommunication or any posthumous penalty or censoring issued by any Church body (or anyone else). Dead people are subject only to God's judgment and that is. The only exception is the process of beatification: the proposed Saint (I don't know the exact terms of canon law) is put to scrutiny just as in a trial (with a formal prosecutor, formerly known as 'advocatus diaboli') – the difference is that even if the person is beatified and canonised, that doesn't mean he's sinless or his life is without fault or error. No one is anyway and any repetentent sinner can be forgiven. Beatification is only a formal confimation that the person is in heaven with God (usually proved by miracles that occurred on his intercession). BTW, infallibility is no issue there.

A dead Christian can be censured and it be declared that during his lifetime that he had incurred excommunication , or , indeed , be absolved .Wrong?Flamekeeper 10:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

But please may others comment on my query (this shouldn't be an "all over again" debate) Str1977 21:08, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Censure and Legitimacy

The legitimacy problem I have posted for obvious reasons on Pope Benedict XVI discussion. It appears within that scandals can be rectified and concludes that a solution exists to these accusations and can be supplied (direct quote from the canonical guide cited there) by the Church.

In so far as humanae vitae was published 35 years after the 1933 scandal I can see a reason for its avoidance as a guide to the law affecting Pius XII.

In so far as HV concerns itself with 'human life' , then I see no limit to its teaching in regards to human life . A truth must be true under all circumstances or be false under one circumstance .

Romans chapter 3 verse 8 exegesis concerns the slander upon the Apostle Paul's doctrines of unconditional election, free justification, of the Divinity converting ( judging or overturning) man's sins for good , put in a rhetorical attack .

Though our

Critics attack us,

That we collaborated with Nazis to beat Commies;

They'd be right to if we did ,

Actual

and not rather ,as we be slanderously reported

and as some affirm:

that we say

let us do evil that good may come;

whose damnation is just