| Revision as of 12:53, 19 June 2007 editRJ CG (talk | contribs)1,417 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:13, 19 June 2007 edit undoColchicum (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers19,162 edits →Denial of link between Monument of Lihula and Occupation of Estonia. =Next edit → | ||
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| :::Estonia was the first country in the world that gave Jews cultural autonomy and once the Soviets took over the country, many Jewish people were deported to Siberia together with Estonians. So the first oppressor of Jews before the nazis arrived in Estonia was the Soviet Union. <ref>http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/holocaust.html </ref> History is always more complicated than black and white...--] 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | :::Estonia was the first country in the world that gave Jews cultural autonomy and once the Soviets took over the country, many Jewish people were deported to Siberia together with Estonians. So the first oppressor of Jews before the nazis arrived in Estonia was the Soviet Union. <ref>http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/holocaust.html </ref> History is always more complicated than black and white...--] 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::: Several mistakes in single statement. 1st, your source does not mention Jewish cultural authonomy in interwar Estonia. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you pasted the wrong link in the haste, as I'm aware of Jewish cultural autonomy in Estonia at this time. However, your source does mention that, despite being by far most educated ethnic group in interwar Estonia, Jews were not represented in government at all. Not a single Jewish public servant in whole country. 2nd, Jewish cultural autonomy was not the 1st in the world by far and could not be. Austro-Hungary gave cultural autonomy to Bukovina Jews in 1910, when Estonia was 2 gubernias of Russian Empire and swore unconditional allegiance to Russian Czars. ] 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | :::: Several mistakes in single statement. 1st, your source does not mention Jewish cultural authonomy in interwar Estonia. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you pasted the wrong link in the haste, as I'm aware of Jewish cultural autonomy in Estonia at this time. However, your source does mention that, despite being by far most educated ethnic group in interwar Estonia, Jews were not represented in government at all. Not a single Jewish public servant in whole country. 2nd, Jewish cultural autonomy was not the 1st in the world by far and could not be. Austro-Hungary gave cultural autonomy to Bukovina Jews in 1910, when Estonia was 2 gubernias of Russian Empire and swore unconditional allegiance to Russian Czars. ] 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::::There were only about 5,000 Jews in interwar Estonia. It doesn't look really telling that they were not represented in the government (as if this would change anything). ] 13:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::And if one thinks that Estonian contributors are guilty because they are Estonians, obviously he is a Nazi himself. ] 09:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | :::And if one thinks that Estonian contributors are guilty because they are Estonians, obviously he is a Nazi himself. ] 09:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::: I share thi sentiment fully but fail to see it's relevance to the problem we discuss. ] 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | :::: I share thi sentiment fully but fail to see it's relevance to the problem we discuss. ] 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::::Then cool down a bit and start contributing verifiable content. E.g. it is not true that the Jews deported to the Soviet Union formed majority of Estonian holocaust survivors, as you claimed.] 13:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==References== | ==References== | ||
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Holocaust in Estonia 1941-1944
Is there a credible source available that cites the country where the 75% of Estonian Jews escaped to before German forces arrived? -BStarky 01:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you think they left for some foreign country across the ocean? After all, they were Soviet citizens in the Soviet Union. Besides, which country would take Jewish refugees in 1940/1941? -- Petri Krohn 02:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- Citizens of the Republic of Estonia, Jewish or otherwise, were commonly accepted by Sweden, for example. Finland and Sweden were common primary targets for refugees in wake of the occupations of Estonia; later, many of these refugees travelled further to Americas (there's a very active Estonian expatriate community in Toronto, for example), Australia and elsewhere. Digwuren 07:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- Estonian expatriate community in Toronto and Jewish community in Toronto have no relationships whatsoever. RJ CG 17:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, there are plenty of sources on this. What is more controversial is how many Jews were brought to Estonian camps after this. According to Ilya Altman and Claudio Ingerflom, around 2,000 jews were killed in Estonia during the Holocaust (Ilya Altman & Claudio Ingerflom, Le Kremlin et L'Holocauste, 1933-2001 (afterword). In: Général Petrenko, Avant et après Auschwitz. Paris: Flammarion, 2002. p. 265. ISBN2-0821-0056-1. According to Maripuu, Meelis (2005), Zur sowjetischen Wahrnehmung der Juden in Estland in den Jahren 1944-1963, Zeitschrift für Ostmitteleuropa-Forschung, 54.1, 86-97, "almost all of the approximately 1000 Jews who remained in the country were executed by the German occupying authorities in 1941-1942, who also brought about 12 000 Jews to Estonia from elsewhere in Europe in 1942-1944.", which gives 13,000 at most. says that "Out of the 1 000 Estonian Jews that remained in Estonia 963 were killed, according to the German commander of Special Commando 1A, Walter Stahlecker."... "Evgenia Gurin-Loov said in her book "Eesti juutide katastroof 1941. Holocaust of Estonian Jews 1941" (Tallinn 1994) that 929 were killed. In addition around 5 000 Central European and 2 000 Lithuanian Jews brought by the Nazis to Estonian camps." According to Birn, Ruth Bettina (2001), Collaboration with Nazi Germany in Eastern Europe: the Case of the Estonian Security Police. Contemporary European History 10.2, 181-198, "Approximately 1,000 Jewish Estonians stayed and were killed. Sandberger's own count is 921 persons killed." Where is the truth? Colchicum 16:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Edit warring
Kids, please stop and try to reach a compromise. The name Estonian Self-Administration is at least correct translation of Eesti Omavalitsus (haven't had a chance to check sources), but it is as clear, that it was a puppet government without any real power. So, compromise - name it Estonian Self-Administration, but make it clear it was a puppet of Nazis. DLX 15:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Denial of link between Monument of Lihula and Occupation of Estonia. =
Number of Estonian wikipedians repeatedly remove link to Monument of Lihula page, using factually dubious comments as "factually wrong" and denying link bweteen monument and Nazi collaborators. As monument's dedication to ones who collaborated with Germany's regime of the day is obvious (more than half of article on Monument consists of discussion of Estonian contribution into Waffen SS and article had been target of edit wars started by two of three recent editors of Occupation article, namely Digwuren and DLX), it heavy smells of POV. RJ CG 16:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Face it, your pet Nazis are not in that high regard as you hope. The monument does not honour "Nazi collaborators". It honours the Estonian soldiers previously not honoured because they fought on the "wrong side" -- through no wrongdoing of their own. Digwuren 16:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- I see that there are small but vocal minority of Estonian contributors who keep themselves busy denying collaboration between Estonians and Nazi during WWII or (as in Monument of Lihula case) when link is impossible to deny, trying to minimize it. Good thing is, you guys do understand that Nazi collaboration is bad thing. Another good thing is, you do not understand that all your efforts are futile. Your only increase ppl's interest to the topic with your busy denialism. Keep up the good work :) RJ CG 17:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nobody is denying anything. There were exactly 7 Estonians that have been facing trials for war crimes and collaborating with the Nazis. Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia. If you think those Estonians who were fighting against the Soviets during the WWII did care about the Nazi cause, you're mistaken. Estonians like most of the Eastern Europe were victims of the 2 superpowers , The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and only thing that mattered for many back then was, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Unfortunately after the one year of Soviet occupation that enemy of the enemy happened to be the German war-machine. Many used this, many chose not to and joined the Finnish army Finnish Infantry Regiment 200 to get a chance to fight against the Soviet Union. --Termer 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- I found it funny that you deny your denialism in discussion about repeated removal of link between Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany article and article about monument honoring Nazi collaborators. Face it, all your noble freedomfighters WERE Nazi collaborators, even if history did not leave them another choice, which is completely different topic (and I may agree with you on that, if it is any consolation to you). BTW, history proved there was another way. Educate yourself on Polish resistance and AK. Back on "Occupation vs. Monument of Lihula" topic. You may have a point that those events are not connected if ones honoured by Monument were not result of occupation. That makes perfect paragraph in "Controversy" section of "Monument of Lihula" article :) RJ CG 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nobody is denying anything. There were exactly 7 Estonians that have been facing trials for war crimes and collaborating with the Nazis. Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia. If you think those Estonians who were fighting against the Soviets during the WWII did care about the Nazi cause, you're mistaken. Estonians like most of the Eastern Europe were victims of the 2 superpowers , The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and only thing that mattered for many back then was, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Unfortunately after the one year of Soviet occupation that enemy of the enemy happened to be the German war-machine. Many used this, many chose not to and joined the Finnish army Finnish Infantry Regiment 200 to get a chance to fight against the Soviet Union. --Termer 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Estonia was the first country in the world that gave Jews cultural autonomy and once the Soviets took over the country, many Jewish people were deported to Siberia together with Estonians. So the first oppressor of Jews before the nazis arrived in Estonia was the Soviet Union. History is always more complicated than black and white...--Termer 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Several mistakes in single statement. 1st, your source does not mention Jewish cultural authonomy in interwar Estonia. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you pasted the wrong link in the haste, as I'm aware of Jewish cultural autonomy in Estonia at this time. However, your source does mention that, despite being by far most educated ethnic group in interwar Estonia, Jews were not represented in government at all. Not a single Jewish public servant in whole country. 2nd, Jewish cultural autonomy was not the 1st in the world by far and could not be. Austro-Hungary gave cultural autonomy to Bukovina Jews in 1910, when Estonia was 2 gubernias of Russian Empire and swore unconditional allegiance to Russian Czars. RJ CG 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- There were only about 5,000 Jews in interwar Estonia. It doesn't look really telling that they were not represented in the government (as if this would change anything). Colchicum 13:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Several mistakes in single statement. 1st, your source does not mention Jewish cultural authonomy in interwar Estonia. I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you pasted the wrong link in the haste, as I'm aware of Jewish cultural autonomy in Estonia at this time. However, your source does mention that, despite being by far most educated ethnic group in interwar Estonia, Jews were not represented in government at all. Not a single Jewish public servant in whole country. 2nd, Jewish cultural autonomy was not the 1st in the world by far and could not be. Austro-Hungary gave cultural autonomy to Bukovina Jews in 1910, when Estonia was 2 gubernias of Russian Empire and swore unconditional allegiance to Russian Czars. RJ CG 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- And if one thinks that Estonian contributors are guilty because they are Estonians, obviously he is a Nazi himself. Colchicum 09:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- I share thi sentiment fully but fail to see it's relevance to the problem we discuss. RJ CG 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Then cool down a bit and start contributing verifiable content. E.g. it is not true that the Jews deported to the Soviet Union formed majority of Estonian holocaust survivors, as you claimed.Colchicum 13:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- I share thi sentiment fully but fail to see it's relevance to the problem we discuss. RJ CG 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Estonia was the first country in the world that gave Jews cultural autonomy and once the Soviets took over the country, many Jewish people were deported to Siberia together with Estonians. So the first oppressor of Jews before the nazis arrived in Estonia was the Soviet Union. History is always more complicated than black and white...--Termer 09:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)