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Back to content: lead image

Alright, I've left this article for about a week now... I'd like to return to discussing the lead image. I do not believe the image of the sows is appropriate for the lead, as I discussed in Archives 1 and 2. Does anyone have thoughts on this topic?

Also, I don't know how to archive. It would be great if someone could archive this whole argument as Archive 3. Thanks! Jav43 21:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

My issue is that it is from an anti-factory farming site (which do tend to make exaggerated claims at times) and the caption itself is making assumptions based on content in another article.. NathanLee 16:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I find it to be a good, representative image of factory farming with a descriptive (if verbose) caption, including sources.-Localzuk 17:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If the image were from a non-bias site, I think it would be appropriate. But, because it is known here that it is from a biased site, it violates the NPOV and should be removed or replaced. --BlindEagle 18:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? So would one from a government agency be acceptable? It would be from a Pro-factory farming site then, and would therefore be biased...

The image is a true image, taken on a real farm, engaged in factory farming. How is that biased?-Localzuk 18:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

How is a government site automagically pro-factory farming?

The problem here is that a) the image is not representative and b) the image is intended to be provocative rather than informative. Gestation crates are outlawed in parts of Europe and Australia, as you and SlimVirgin kindly pointed out, and in at least Florida in the US - and will be outlawed in all of the EU by 2013. Placing a largely illegal image in the lead of this article is irresponsible. Secondly, the image was intentionally captured and placed here in order to oppose "factory farming" practices - not to describe them. Something informative would be best. Since we've finally figured out that a "factory farm" is a CAFO, we should simply have an image of a CAFO in the lead, showing large animal numbers in a small space. Jav43 19:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, btw: I'm fine with this image being in the "opposition" section of this article. I just do not believe it fits in the lead. Jav43 19:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a NPOV image would be best. I agree with the prior post. The image is not meant to inform but to inflame. Can this image be removed and another promoted in its place? --BlindEagle 13:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Jav, if you had wanted a different image and different content, you should have agreed to compromise or mediation, or to have an article called something other than "factory farming." But as you insist on retaining what you call the "activist" title, then you have to accept that it will be about the controversy. You can't have it both ways. SlimVirgin 17:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop the distortion. These are not outlawed. They will be outlawed by 2013 in the EU, and in the U.S. there are plans to phase them out by (from memory) 2020 in some areas. But they are, as of this time, widely used in Europe and North America. That's why the image is there. It is an iconic image of factory farming. SlimVirgin 17:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

First off, I wanted an article called something other than factory farming. Your failure to recognize this simply means that you did not read nor participate in any of the debate we went through, so I won't bother addressing the rest of your first paragraph.

Second, gestation crates ARE outlawed in parts of Europe, Australia, and at least in Florida. Please stop ignoring that. I don't care whether the image is iconic of animal welfare activists; it is not demonstrative of CAFOs. Jav43 19:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Vote for Pig or Cow lead photo

Support, Oppose, Neutral and sign your name. Reasons need to be given. Majority rules. After a week or so, we'll tally up the votes. Agreed? --BlindEagle 18:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

oppose the pig pic

support the pig pic

neutral towards the pig pic

--BlindEagle 20:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose lead image of sows in gestation crates: not informative, prejudicial, not representative. Jav43 19:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose NPOV sited for source of image. --BlindEagle 19:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose per Jav43. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 20:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC).

Comments about voting

This is a stupid thing to fight about. The image can be moved, the caption can be changed, other images can be found, the size of the image can be adjusted. This is not a binary choice. This is something that can be negotiated. Stop fighting about it as if it is a binary issue. Please. WAS 4.250 22:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I've tried all that. I keep getting reverted. Jav43 00:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You could try "all that" on this talk page. Getting reverted means you were trying it on the article page. Which is fine to do once or twice; but then when reverted, the usual thing to do is to take it to the talk page and talk about it. The idea behind "consensus" is to try to find something everyone can live with. Example ideas:

1. move the image down into the article
2. make the image smaller or crop it
3. add a contrasting image (I saw cows on a waterbed image once; the owner said happy cows gave more milk)
4. caption it with "image used by anti factory farming fanatics to misrepresent factory farming" (well, you have to leave room to negotiate ... :) )
5. combine all the above into some kind of compromise. WAS 4.250 07:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I think the first step is to determine what the majority wants and why. From there we can work on the results of that vote. If you have an opinion on the whether or not the picture should stay, please vote above. --BlindEagle 10:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried all that on this talk page, WAS. Then, several times, I waited a few days, then when no one responded, I made a change... and was reverted without comment on the talk page. See Archive 1. Jav43 10:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is when everyone involved agrees with some solution enough that they stop fighting and move on. In cases where someone simply refuses to cooperate in finding that solution, then administrative measures (including arbcom) can be used. I suggest we find a solution to this image issue without bringing up other issues and without both sides insisting on no compromise. It was my impression that moving the image down the page had substantial support. Am I wrong on this? WAS 4.250 11:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

That was the compromise I was willing to go with. Jav43 16:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Consensus vs. Voting

Misplaced Pages:Consensus is official policy. Please read it. "Majority rules" is against policy. Consensus rules is policy. WAS 4.250 07:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have consensus anyway. Jav43 23:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Lead image

We have discussed this image and its rationale ad nauseam. It is very representative of factory farming and includes the essence of the concept with its attendant controversy and therefore belongs in the lead. I see no reason to suppress it. Crum375 15:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

As discussed, it's neither representative nor typical. This article is about more than a controversy - it is also intended to inform as to a certain farming methodology. Controversy isn't everything. Jav43 16:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't care if its the lead image or used for the Opposing View section. However, it shouldn't be used for both the lead and Opposing View, and since it is the only photo in the Opposing View section (and it's certainly appropriate there), I don't think it should be moved unless an equally suitable photo is provided to take its place in Opposing View. JD Lambert 18:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Reverts without talk page discussion

So... for those who know, what's the appropriate course of action to take when people revert without engaging in discussion on the talk page, even after being asked to do so? (i.e. Crum and SV) Jav43 22:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Join mediation, everyone? Crum375 22:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, the reasons for its use have been expressed dozens of times, and the constant ignoring of them is getting old, and saying people aren't discussing it is just wrong, as it has been discussed to death. If you disagree with the image, we should use some form of dispute resolution - as there seems to be 2 completely opposing positions.-Localzuk 23:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the point in mediation when you refuse to discuss the merits? That said, I won't oppose mediation. Jav43 00:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed the merits, over and over and over, to death. This Talk page and its archives contain huge amounts of discussions, that got us nowhere. The way to proceed when we clearly disagree, is not to keep talking at each other ad nauseam, but to go to mediation. Crum375 00:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We had 55,000 words from one contributor alone in three days, so heaven knows how many words overall. If you want to go to mediation to discuss the image and the titles, let's do it. We've been suggesting it for weeks. But you can't have your way completely: multiple titles, images of your choice, no mediation. SlimVirgin 01:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with mediation limited to the issue of the current top image and its caption. WAS 4.250 08:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, those opposed to Slim et. al. should take note of her comment about "can't have your way completely: multiple titles" which seems to indicate the acceptance of not trying to merge other agricultural articles into this one. This was the issue here that I felt could not be compromised on. As long as the other agricultural articles aren't also made into being all about angst for animals then I don't feel its worth the time to fight over this article being too much like that. WAS 4.250 08:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to add a link to my little idea, FeedlotRadio.com, to raise animals better the same way you can plants, with music, and silence the vegan protest (ideally).

For some reason, this novel idea is being rejected outright every time I try to add the link. It was suggested I discuss it here, so I am. I guess I didn't think there'd be an issue, and I'm surprised it wouldn't be included when so many redundant pro-veganism sites are.

1. "Photo gallery", factoryfarming.com.
2. ^ Kaufmann, Mark. "Largest Pork Processor to Phase Out Crates", The Washington Post, January 26, 2007.
3. "An HSUS Report: Welfare Issues with Gestation Crates for Pregnant Sows", The Humane Society of the United States, January 6, 2006.