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Archives

1. Archive 1: bit-by-bit changes
2. Archive 2: Michael estranged? Greer's affiliations
3. Archive 3: POV, Michael as cause?, external links
4. Archive 4: Baden's assessment, Euthanasia vs Right-to-die, POV, George Greer, why remove tube, Catholic-influenced decision?, condition wording, open adultery statute, $10M offer, feeling pain, potential abuse, first names, external link quality
5. Archive 5: NCDave conduct, link cleanup, biography request, S686 text, Sun Hudson, Ms./Mrs.
6. Archive 6: court decisions, legal implications, family members' character, wording of condition, pundits, S686 vote, Iraq, Sun Hudson
7. Archive 7: Ms. or Mrs., photo usage, initial collapse, insurance, feeding tube, pronunciation, legal costs
8. Archive 8: cause of collapse, Larry King transcript, Hammesfahr's credentials, Michael's role, nurse's affidavit, the Vatican, page protection
9. Archive 9: photo inclusion, alleged GOP memo, mentioning the money, bulimia as cause, pro-life/anti-abortion, role of the church
10. Archive 10: feeling pain, cleanup of additions, proposed addition of Lieberman analysis and vocalizations
11. Archive 11: poll on terminology ("pro-life" or other), including public opinion, wording on Mr. Schiavo's role, overlinking
12. Archive 12: sources for external links, date correction, "Culture of Life"/"Culture of Death", ABC poll, CAT Scans
13. Archive 13: authority to report condition, NPOV tag, pain speculation in lead?, Catholic category, edit warring, Reuters cite, brain scan, nurse Iyer affidavit
14. Archive 14: disability rights, Ms./Mrs. again, Hammesfahr update, POV issues, Michael an RN, poll on stating pain status
15. Archive 15: summarizing televised statements, LA Times, cremation?, weight, Mr. Schiavo's girlfriend, "life support", Dr. Maxfield, 1994 hospice care, parents sent out before death?, who is "family", relevance of early life, fork article?
16. Archive 16: still "current event"?, family in room, lead section, pronunciation, Last Rites, NYT, list of neurologists, TOC, copyediting, talk archiving and refactoring, "recent developments", affidavits
17. Archive 17: "fact"/"alleged"/"disputed"/"claimed", Martinez talking points memo, HTML entities, Dr. Cranford, Zogby poll
18. Archive 18: Mr. Schiavo living will?, GAL question, NPOV tag, article refactor, medical lodgings, wikithanks, cause of death, other articles
19. Archive 19: short or long intro?, splitting article, relevance test, URL test, Tropix sock puppet?, Perry Fine quote
20. Archive 20: Terri's weight discrepency, unusually stiff neck, length, web accessibility/definition of life-prolonging procedure, paraphrase v. quote, legal grist, re: Patsw rv., uncited statements?
21. Archive 21: Valentine's Day rewritten, splitting article, to Ann Heneghan, the NCDave situation, Natural means
22. Archive 22: NCdave troll?, NCdave vandalism / Prof. Ninja 3RR, Malpractice Suit, Reference links, Pecarek report, To Tropix, Consensus, Abuse, Factual Accuracy v. Neutral Point of View, issues of dispute
23. Archive 23: POV tag, lead section, Bernat Senate Testimony, NCdave editing from IP, "formal vs. journalistic" style, LRod please create an account, Changes by JYolkowski
24. Archive 24: Name formats, burial, FuelWagon vs GordonWatts, 'wacky edits', links - crackpot or not?, general squabbling

Please Use This Talk Page Correctly

From Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette

• Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis.
• You can always take a discussion to e-mail or to your user page if it's not essential to the article.
• Sign and date your posts to talk pages (not articles!).

Please bear these items in mind when posting to this talk page. This article is controversial and somewhat high traffic. Mis/overuse of the talk page makes it difficult for this page to serve its intended purpose.
Fox1 11:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• And remember, when making assertions concerning Mrs. Schiavo herself and her condition. You (almost certainly) do (did) not know her personally, and you (almost certainly) have not examined her in person, and you (very likely -- tell us if it's otherwise :-) are not a physician. So you are working on second-hand, third-hand, or worse reportage. Temper your assertions accordingly.
  

--Baylink 19:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Let's settle this

I took a break for a few days, came back, and found out things were at least has bad as they had been. *sigh* Rather than argue with the various parties involved, I move that we collectively ask a third party to get involved. I just read through Misplaced Pages: Requests for mediation, and I believe that both the article and the talk page have gotten to that point. All of us have opinions; most of us at one point or another have failed to respect the opinions of others (myself included); the article suffers for it. Enough. I move that a mediator examine the following:

• POV issues surrounding Ms. Schiavo's condition (PVS, MVS, etc.)
• POV issues surrounding the legal status Ms. Schiavo's family (legal guardianship of Terri; Michael's relationships; etc.)
• POV issues regarding terminology discussing the judge's ruling(s)
• Behavior on the Talk Page

Is there anything else? I personally would like to see some other issues addressed, but I would rather reach a consensus first on what we should ask a Mediator to help us resolve. I would like to achieve some type of baseline that the vast majority can agree to stand behind, even if we don't agree with the particulars. Failing that, I want to establish grounds for the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee getting involved. Misplaced Pages, the article and the Talk page should not places for people to grind their personal axes.--ghost 16:20, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that NCdave will never agree to anything that doesn't result in the Terri Schiavo article containing the laundry list of wild conspiracy theories you see below. It will get arbitrated, something won't get put in that NCdave wants in, and he'll start chewing on that bone until there's more arbitration. At some point, there has to be a separation of medical and legal facts from NCdave's fantasies. Unless arbitration results in drawing some hard line that says "this is fact, this is the way the article should report it, end of story", then it's gonna be one arbitration in a long list of arbitrations. FuelWagon 22:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

If you are looking for a second to your motion to move to mediation, then I second that motion. However, I'm not so sure that you can limit it to those few areas of POV and the talk page. What this article needs is for a neutral party to look at its overall structure and its conciseness/clarity. Within that framework, you automatically address POV on a variety of issues as it cannot be avoided. I consider writing/editing the article and the behavior on the talk page two separate issues, which could be handed by one mediator/arbitration. I would like to participate, if possible, but I will be on a technology-free one-week vacation starting tomorrow, so I look forward to seeing what happens...--Mia-Cle 00:25, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

A mediator can only suggest what I've suggested. Introduce changes one at a time, with a short argument for them. Discuss them with a view to compromising. Accept that your POV might not be included if you cannot or will not source it appropriately. Dave does not do any of these things. He will not even try. Nor will any of the other "pro Terri" POV pushers. Their idea of "compromise" is to insert their POV in the page and then yell and scream at very great length when it's removed. Grace Note 00:39, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I think Grace is right in seeking to address one problem at a time, but I don't have faith that he and Wagon are right when they fret that NCdave will continue to complain. Below, I will make a suggested compromise, and we will see if I am right in my guess that things will calm down. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Ghost, there are many other POV and accuracy problems with the article, too.

For example, the article says that the battles were over whether "to prevent the disconnect of her gastric feeding tube." But that is inaccurate, since Judge Greer explicitly ordered that she be deprived of food and water by natural means, and that she not be given the swallowing therapy and swallowing tests which her family wanted and which would have determined whether she could have been fed by mouth ("natural means"). This is NCdave's comment --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Greer's order is covered in agonizing detail in the article here. your argument about "natural means" is empty. Would you prefer the article say "the battle over whether to murder Terri" in the name of accuracy? FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, here is my suggested compromise: Wagon is correct in his claim that this subject is covered well in the article, but I have no problem with the article saying that the main battle was over the feeding tube. For example, there were other "court battles" over both the level of rehabilitation, examination, and oral feeding, as well as visitation and several other issues. I hope this helps. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

You cite the Misplaced Pages article on Terri Schiavo in defense of its own accuracy???

Oh man, you've stooped to new levels of stupidity. No, knucklehead, I cite the section of the wikipedia article to say that your problem with "natural means" is already covered in agonizing detail in the article. The article already has its own section about "natural means". And then I ask how you would want to rephrase the "battle", and you ignore it. We're back to whack a mole. You're all over the map, reinterpreting a simple statement by me, and ignoring any direct questions. What would you have the intro say, "The battle over whether terri should be murdered" ??? You won't answer it because any way that you'd want to rephrase it would turn it into an unsubstantiated witchhunt. Michael wanted to murder Terri to cover up his wife abuse. Felos wanted to murder Terri for the legal fees. Greer wanted to murder Terri for ... I don't even know what excuse you have in your twisted little mind, but it's crap either way. The ad litems and doctors wanted to murder Terri because they're sick bastards that like euthenasia. The police that Iyer contacted wanted to murder Terri because it was too much work to investigate with a phone call. They're all in the "culture of death", whatever that means in your clueless, brainwashed mind. FuelWagon 20:30, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why you're bothering. The guy should just be reverted. His POV is, as you've noted, plainly extreme. He wants to include "facts" that plainly bias the article. We know that. His side can get who they like to "mediate" the dispute, but because he doesn't give an inch on any issue, they'll find that fruitless. Just put it to the guy that he should give single edits on the talkpage, one at a time, discuss each one fully and accept compromise. That's how contentious pages are edited. If he won't do it, then there's no reason not to revert him on sight. His simply throwing out dozens of accusations won't do. One edit at a time. One question at a time. That's how it is done. Don't get into it with him on any other basis. Grace Note 23:24, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, Grace and Wagon, it seems NCdave may have misunderstood Wagon's post about how the article actually addresses the oral feeding dispute, but that is no reason to go nucular balistic. No one, not even my worst enemiy on this board (whoever that might be) should be reverted on sight. The edits should be looked at for their merit. That being said, I see no reason Neutrality recently took out the link to Euthanasia in this diff. I don't really care one way or the other, but this WIKI editor or admin, or whatever he is, surprised me. Euthanasia was more of an issue than, for example, Civil Rights, in the Schiavo case, even though all the links were good ones. So, in conclusion, if you want a wishy-washy article, that's fine with me, but don't come crying to me when (not if) the quality suffers. By the way, a LOT of people think NCdave was being railroaded, as shown in this diff: -at last count, it was five people. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave#Response in case the diff is hard to read. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

My points are that we should be careful to present all the facts, not just those we like -and also that we should not be so quick to jump on someone (Dave or whomever). What comes around, goes around, so don't muddy the waters. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:03, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The fact is that, in defiance of Florida statutes, Judge Greer explicitly ordered that Terri not be allowed to have food of water "by natural means." The Schindlers had a stack of affidavits from medical professionals who thought that she could be fed by mouth. The guardian ad litem recommended swallowing therapy and tests for her. But Judge Greer refused to permit it.

Then, with astounding chutzpah, Judge Greer alluded to the lack of such tests as justification for not allowing Terri to be fed by mouth. There was no proof that she could be fed by mouth, you see, so attempting to feed her by mouth would be "experimental."

Greer didn't even mention Terri's gastric feeding tube in his orders. He did mention feeding by "natural means." Greer ordered that she not be fed, and he explicitly forbade feeding her by "natural means." NCdave 20:17, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article tells the reader Michael Schiavo's contention, that Terri would not wish to be kept alive. That is POV bias, because it doesn't tell the other side. The article only mentions that Michael's contention was a "source of dispute," and doesn't mention the Schindlers' (proven!) contentions that it took Michael eight years to "remember" that Terri had ever said such a thing, and that his supposed recollection was contradicted by the sworn testimony of four witnesses.

The emperical evidence supports the notion that Michael worked hard to help Terri recover (getting thalmic stimulator implant was an attempt to coverup his abuse of Terri? Getting certified as a nurse was so he could learn how to inject insulin into her blood in an failed attempt (5 times at least) to murder her?). When Michael finally came to accept the diagnosis that she would never recover, only then did he have ANY reason to tell the courts that Terri would not want to be kept alive on a machine. People don't just walk around and tell everyone they meet "my spouse would not want to be kept on life support" in case it comes up. You're attempts to paint this as conveniently "remembering" what Terri wanted is based on the circumstantial evidence that Michael didn't request to take Terri off of life support the day after her heart attack, and it doesn't jive with the thalimic stimulator or nursing training or other things michael did. You can't just ignore the stuff that doesnt' fit your fantasy FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article says that, "In 1994, after three years of trying traditional and experimental therapies, Mr. Schiavo accepted the diagnosis of an irreversible persistent vegetative state. At this point, he began to accept the idea of allowing his wife to die naturally, rather than remaining in a persistent vegetative state." That reads like a Felos press release. Aside from the dubious PVS diagnosis stated as fact, and the nonsense about "allowing" her "to die naturally," and the unprovable claims about Michael's pure motives and innermost thoughts, it also states a false chronology. The fact is that Terri received no therapy at all in either 1993 or 1994, because Michael refused to allow it. She also received very little therapy in 1992, because the Schindlers (who were paying the bills, and supporting Michael Schiavo, who was unemployed), ran out of money. When funds again became available, in January 1993, as a result of the malpractice settlement, Michael Schiavo refused to allow Terri to resume therapy. The article says that, "In 1994... in consultation with his wife's physician, he halted most therapy for his wife." That's pure nonsense. The therapy had actually been halted years earlier. -NCdave

It reads like a Wolfson report. But then Wolfson is in on the conspiracy, isnt' he? FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

FuelWagon, when you "split" someone else's message to respond to it point-by-point, please add his attribution (i.e., the other guy's handle) to the material just above where you insert yours, so that the reader will know whose comment you are responding to. By way of example, I've added "-NCdave" above, in red, just above your 01:43, 19 May 2005 contribution. NCdave 20:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

In answer to your question, I think you know that Wolfson's appointment as GAL was opposed by the Schindlers because, at the time of his appointment, he had already told the local media (in a TV interview) that he thought that Terri's feeding tube should be removed. So, he was provably biased in favor of the M.Schaivo/Felos POV, which should have precluded him from being appointed as Terri's GAL. (Nevertheless, in his report he recommended swallowing therapy and tests for Terri -- a recommendation which Greer refused.) NCdave 20:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Do you have a URL containing the complete text of the interview? or must I take you interpretation of what Wolfson meant as fact? Don't point me to some blog's interpretation of his meaning or some partisan website's interpretation of his meaning. I want a URL to a complete transcript, with no interpretation and nothing taken out of context. Anything else is a witchhunt. FuelWagon 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article says that, "According to Jay Wolfson, one of Schiavo's court-appointed guardians, due to the attention Schiavo has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, she has never developed any bedsores." But Wolfson was provably wrong about that. Michael acknowledged in sworn testimony during the 1992 malpractice trial that Terri did have bedsores. In fact, as Michael Schiavo testified under oath, she had a toe amputated because of bedsores.

Was Michael's diagnosis correct? Was it a bedsore that caused the toe to be amputated? Or was it some other medical complication? I'm not a bedsore expert, but if Terri spends most of her time on her back, then her toes would be in the air, and it would be hard to get a bedsore. A URL would be handy. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The article refers to GAL Wolfson simply as, "one of Schiavo's court-appointed guardians." But (1) Wolfson wasn't Terri's guardian, merely her GAL. That's factual inaccuracy. Also, (2) the article fails to mention that Wolfson's appointment was opposed by the Schindlers because Wolfson had shown bias in the case, because he had already, before his appointment, publicly expressed the opinion that Terri's feeding tube should be removed. That ommision is POV bias.

A URL to a newspaper article quoting Wolfson would be useful. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The article says, "the Schindlers actively encouraged Mr. Schiavo to 'get on with his life.' He was encouraged by the Schindlers to date..." But, like so much of the article, that is the unsupported contention of Michael Schiavo (and hearsay, too). The Schindlers have not admitted such a thing.

"The Schindlers have not admitted such a thing." Hm. Interesting. That proves nothing. It is a lack of information. The thing is that Wolfson said it in his report, and as far as I know, the Schindlers have never disputed it. If they haven't disputed it, it can stand as fact. Your disputing the assertion is irrelevant. I know of nothing on record from the Schindler's side that disputes that they told him to get on with his life, and introduced girlfriends to them, and let him stay in their home while doing so. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Terri's condition, it isn't just the argument over whether she was in PVS or MCS (not "MVS," btw). The article also incorrectly states that Terri's "cerebral cortex had been completely destroyed," which is an example of pure nonsense from the Felos propaganda machine. According to radiologists, Terri's CT scans showed no such thing, and the extent of Terri's brain damage was unknown, because Felos/M.Schiavo would not permit the PET and fMRI scans that would have determined it.

"Felos propaganda machine". Are you quoting one of the players in the case? or are you introducing your POV here? "according to radiologists" Which radiologists? Some guy with a blog? Did you not see the scan of Terri's brain with the huge empty space in her skull? perhaps her cerebral cortex hadn't been "completely destroyed", but you'd have to have an amazing skill at selective vision to miss that big black hole on that scan. fMRI was completely experimental,even some of the doctors whom the Schindlers got affidavits from said that an fMRI should be used in a UNIVERSITY or research setting rather than as a medical diagnosis. The lack of a test proves nothing. It is zero evidence. "why not test her?" is an unanswered question. it proves nothing. It is simply "begging the question" and proving nothing. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The article describes Cranford as, "a neurologist at the University of Minnesota assessed Schiavo's brain function in 2001 as part of a court-ordered examination." That is POV biased, because it gives a false impression of how Cranford came to be involved, and because of the highly selective way in which he is described. In fact, it was Felos who chose Cranford, not the court, and Cranford is most famous as a pro-euthanasia activist, not as a UM professor. It was Cranford's right-to-die/euthanasia activism that led Felos to hire him, not his position at UM.

If cranford was biased enough, the Schindler's could have protested and gotten him off the case. Either they screwed up and missed the chance or the tried but Greer was in the conspiracy and left him on the job. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article says that, " exam showed that Schiavo's cerebral cortex had been completely destroyed and replaced by cerebrospinal fluid. The upper brain was about 80 percent destroyed, and there was also damage to the lower brain. The only part of the brain that remained intact was the brain stem..." But that is factually incorrect. Cranford's examination of Terri showed no such thing. He only spent about 45 minutes with her. He claimed that CT scans showed that her cerebral cortex was completely destroyed, but he is not a radiologist and not qualified to interpret CT scans, and radiologists say that her CT scans showed no such thing.

Also, the article shows a Felos-provided CT slice comparison: a single slice from a CT scan of Terri's head side-by-side with a CT slice of a normal brain, as if the two were comparable. But, in fact, the two slices are not comparable, because they are of different parts of the head, as evidenced by the much thicker skull cross-section on Terri's slice, because it is a shallower cross-section. That CT slice comparison was a deliberately deceptive propaganda stunt by Felos, to falsely exaggerate the structural differences between Terri's brain and a normal, undamaged brain. It has no place in an encyclopedia article.

Thank you Dr. NCdave. Did you get a neurology degree while you were away? A big black hole in Terri's skull is a big black hole. It don't matter what you compare it to. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it isn't. The reason that Terri's skull appears so thick in that scan is presumably that it was a very "shallow" cross-section, which means that it doesn't show what is further down. The Felos team hand-selected that single slice to distribute to the media. Why do you think they withheld the other slices from that scan? The radiologists say that this CT slice does not show that Terri's cerebral cortex is "gone." NCdave 20:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

"Why do you think they withheld the other slices from that scan?" That is "begging the question" and a "leading question". You've substantiated nothing. You've presented no real evidence. Questions are not evidence. Learn that lesson and a lot of the problems on this talk page will go away. FuelWagon 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Also, the article quotes fragments of GAL reports that support the M.Schiavo/Felos POV, but fails to quote fragments that support the Schindler POV.

Also, the article says, "Dr. Jeffrey Karp and Dr. Victor Gambone, Schiavo's primary care physician, determined that she was in an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS)." But I can find no documentation of any testimony, report, or conclusion by Dr. Karp, of any sort.

And that proves... what? You have unanswered questions. That isn't POV on the part of the wikipedia article, it is ignorance on your part: you don't know. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The article says, "Dr. Jeffrey Karp and Dr. Victor Gambone, Schiavo's primary care physician, determined that she was in an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS)." But Dr. Gambone was actually hired by Felos as part of the legal strategy to end Terri's life. He was not her physician before that. He is not a neurologist or radiologist. He does not have the expertise to diagnose or treat PVS. He was hired by Felos to get the diagnosis that they wanted, after M.Schiavo & Felos had already begun their efforts to have her killed, and he falsified documentation to get her admitted to hosipice, and he committed Medicaid fraud: On March 11, 2000 he signed the following statement: "Based on the patient’s diagnosis and current condition, I expect this patient has a limited life expectancy of six (6) months or less, if disease continues to take its(sic) usual course, and hereby certify this patient as eligible for Hospice care.". Gambone spent only one hour with Terri the first time he saw her, and thereafter saw her for only about 10 minutes at a time, just three times per year. On no occasion did Gambone spend anywhere near enough time to definitively diagnose PVS. But readers are led by the article to believe that he was an credible, informed, and unbiased source of medical opinion (her "primary care physician"). That is deceptive. The article trashes Hammesfahr, but gives Cranford and Gambone a pass. That is POV bias.

He committed medicaid fraud? And you want wikipedia to put this in the article? Is that a lawsuit I smell? FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I see you're spreading this same rumor on the timeline article too, now. This report by Pearse, dated 9 December 1998, page 2, says: "the ward's current primary care physician, Dr. Vincent Gambone". So the wikipedia article is quoting legal documents when it calls Gambone her primary care physician. But Pearse is probably in on the conspiracy. FuelWagon 18:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The discussion of the five doctors who participated in the evidentiary hearing casts aspersions on the two physicians chosen by the Schindlers, but doesn't mention, for example, that Cranford saw Terri for less than 45 minutes, and that he once testified in favor of starving to death a man who could navigate an electric wheelchair up and down hospital corridors. The article even gets wrong one of the five physians. It says, "Michael Schiavo selected Dr. Cranford and Dr. James Barnhill." But actually M.Schiavo chose Cranford and the very elderly Dr. Melvin Greer (no relation to the judge), an out-of-State neurologist who saw Terri for only about 45 minutes, and testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment, and whose practice did not include the diagnosis or treatment of PVS or MCS patients. In contrast (not mentioned in this article, of course), Dr. Hammesfahr spent over 10 hours with Terri.

I've yet to find anything that says Cranford wanted to euthanize a guy in a wheelchair. I know he diagnosed someone as PVS and a year or so later the guy got better and could move around in a wheelchair, but at the time of the diagnosis the guy was comatose. As far as I know, Cranford never got reprimanded/sued/license-pulled for his diagnosis. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

FuelWagon, I have already provided a link to an article by a lawyer who cross-examined Dr Cranford during the trial in the case of Robert Wendland. I posted it to this page on 22 April, but it has since been archived (Archive 23). Here it is again . According to this article, Cranford said in court, "Robert should be allowed to die so the family can grieve". Robert Wendland was the man in the wheelchair. I have seen an article which claims that Cranford diagnosed him as PVS, but most articles, including the one I refer to here, say that his diagnosis was MCS. His recommendation of removing nutrition was made at the time that he acknowledged Wendland to be MCS, not when Wendland was in a coma. Ann Heneghan 00:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

You are citing the blog of a partisan! This woman reminds me of Hammesfahr. He practically had Schiavo up and walking. This woman has the patient in question so well, you really have to ask why he didn't just drive his electric wheelchair down to Maccas and buy himself lunch. This is the problem with your side of this discussion. FuelWagon cites the opinion of the courts, neutral doctors who have no axe to grind and sources that involve factchecking in some way. You are citing a woman expressing her agenda, which happens to coincide with your own. Grace Note 01:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

That its a partisan isn't the problem. That its a BLOG is the problem. Any idiot with a modem can have a blog, and they have no legal responsbilities to be neutral, factual, or follow any sort of journalistic ethics. Find a URL from a newspaper or something more journalistic that says Robert Wendland was out and about at the time Cranford diagnosed him PVS and then you might have something. As it is, this is little more than the word of Abigail Williams. FuelWagon 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I could go on and on -- that's all from the top 20% or so of the article, there are massive quantities of incorrect and biased material in this article.

Oh, I know you could go on. and on. and on. You are unmoved by logic, unswayed by evidence, and unbothered by a lack of evidence on your part. I'm surprised you didn't mention the fact that Michael said "when's that bitch gonna die" didn't get sufficient space in the article. You loved beating that one to death for weeks. FuelWagon 01:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The current article is so very bad that IMO there's no chance it will be entirely fixed anytime soon. So, 'in the meantime, can we at least all agree on the obvious fact that the neutrality and accuracy of the article are disputed? At least we can restore the "{{npov}}" and "{{accuracy}}" warning tags to the article, which say so. Agreed? NCdave 20:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the neutrality is disputed. I am not going to get caught up in edit wars, but I certainly support having the neutrality tag on the article for the time being, while we try to sort out these issues. I can think of a few other registered users who showed clearly in their edits and their comments on the talk page that they believed the neutrality was disputed. They seem to have disappeared. Well, I can't blame them. Misplaced Pages editing can take over, and we all have other things in our lives that we need to do. Plus, the atmosphere can be rather hostile for people who lean in the direction of thinking that the Schindlers had some good arguments on their side. Ann Heneghan 17:12, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Ann, the church thought they had some good arguments on their side when they considered burning Galileo at the stake. I don't have a problem with "good arguments". But I am hostile to the dogmatism of NCdave and GordonWatts. NCdave brought up Iyer's affidavit for several weeks when this was hot and heavy and NOTHING would change his mind. He kept harping on Iyer's allegation that Michael tried to inject insulin into Terri on 5 separate occaisions in failed attempts to kill her and that he was continuously asking "when is that bitch gonna die?" or similar questions. That the judge ruled her affidavit "incredible to say the least" unmoved him. That Iyer claimed to inform the Schindlers about Michael's actions but that they did nothing didn't phase him. That Iyer claimed that her boss and even the police were in on the conspiracy with Michael, seemed perfectly reasonable to him. So, yeah, I'm hostile to moronic idiocy that would defend allegations that are so outlandish that you might as well call Michael a witch and burn him at the stake. FuelWagon 18:11, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

All of these accusations, I'm sure, are proven on various neutral websites with supporting evidence to back it up. Oh, if only I had a URL, the truth could come out. FuelWagon 22:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

It appears to me that both of you (NCdave and FuelWagon) are at some level correct. NCdave is partially correct that some of the controversies may not be provided in the Wiki format of: Fact, document/link, fact about controversy, document/link. Rather, long and circular arguments are provided about one or both sides. This is suboptimal.

FuelWagon is correct in that NPOV is not served by inserting dissertations on one or the other POV. The reader should be allowed to reach their own conclusions, not be led of on a tangent. And unfortunately, the passion and detail of NCdave's arguments undermine his position on this point. So I submitted for mediation.

I think you are generally correct on one important point, ghost: Namely, I think that at least the two main opposing views be presented on each subject, be it the feeding tube, what Terri's wishes were, how much rehab & theroapy should've been done, or even (for example) whether there should've been more examination of Terri. That is, you provide a good format: "Fact, document/link, fact about controversy, document/link." For example, The court ruled A (link), but the family (or other principals) said B (link). The court finally ruled C (link). Dave's passion (or lack therof) neither supports nor undermines his views. The fact stand or fall on their own merit (or lack therof). I was one of those users who both became frusterated with the rancor and argument --as well as the time spent that resulted in reverts. Resultantly, I am expected to limit my participation, but I mean no offense by this. Ann has a good point. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

We CAN make this work. As a group, it requires that we choose too. We have a moral obligation to do so that started when we hit the 'edit' button. Let's see what a 3rd party has to say about what Misplaced Pages's position(s) should be.--ghost 13:26, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

NCDave is simply pushing a POV. Each edit he makes is founded in a particular theory he has. Okay, I don't have a problem with that POV's being represented but it may not be put forward as "neutral" or as "the facts". I've suggested to him and I suggest to you, ghost, that he puts his suggested edits here on the talkpage, with short justifications, and sources where appropriate, one by one. Allow each to be fully discussed. Accept a compromise. We can go through the entire article in that manner. I don't know why you expect a mediator to say anything different. They're not simply going to say "let's just take a middle course". Most editors will, I think, agree that FuelWagon represents something like the neutral view and NCDave an extreme POV. A middle course would be somewhere slanted towards Dave's view. But articles should represent controversies quite separately from facts, not represent each side as though its "facts" had equal validity. Dave's facts are all too often interpretations ex post facto or what you might call "negative facts": Mr Schiavo did not do this, the judge did not do that, and conclusions he draws from those omissions (it would be slightly more acceptable if Dave restricted himself to others' commentary and didn't seek to interpose his own thinking on it. Grace Note 23:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I actually do have a problem with NCdave's pov being represented. The POV's that deserve representation in teh article are Michaels and the Schindlers. NCdave's pov is irrelevant. The POV of some blog in tim-buck-two is irrelevant. MY pov is irrelevant. The point is to report the POV's of the main players who were actually involved, not some armchair Don Quixote who can inflate his self ego by declaring himself to be on the side of the "culture of life" and waging war against whatever delusions of evil he might have. FuelWagon 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Here's my underlying motivation. I agree that mediation is likely not going to resolve the majority of these issues. My purpose in submitting for mediation was to: 1) Gather enough of a concensus on a few items to resist the fringe. Also, to have an independant review of facts & statements about facts that would be defensible by the majority of us. (And I DO want to be involved in that majority, even if I don't agree on the minutia.) 2) Failing that, give us grounds to submit the article and/or issues for arbitration. Basicly, I want a bigger hammer for the Whack-O-Mole games. Big enough to allow all the reverts needed.

I read thru all the text below on cats, line-by-line, etc. I think overall, it argues even more for an independant review. I'm tired, and I think most of the rest of us are too, of being forced play windmill for the Don Quixotes. We need a baseline. If we cut to article to the base framework, what can be agreed on? If one statement is going to force 4 paragraphs of explanation, is it better to remove the statement altogether? I don't think it is, and Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy seems to back another way...

But it's not enough, to express the Misplaced Pages non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. (It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.)

Some of the users are clearly making zero attempt to examine or present competeing views. However, burying thier opinions by following them with dissertations undermining the opinion is equally inappropriate. It could be done in one paragraph. How far off-base am I on this format?

-Statement of Fact (and in regards to rulings, this should be the ruling, although we may want to list it as such)

-Opinion supporting Fact (What it is; Who supports it)

-Link supporting opinion (this should be a footnote link only)

-Opinion challengeing Fact and/or supporting Opinion (What it is; Who supports it)

-Link supporting challenge (again, this should be a footnote link only)

-Point/link to See Also or Reference section, or other article

I propose that anything that can't stand up to this test be cut. Call it the Joe Friday approach. I've got no interest in reading all of a seventeen page article. If I want more detail, give me a link or tell me where to get it. Otherwise, "Just the facts..."--ghost 20:52, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Let's look at it sentence by sentence

Paragraph One

Theresa Marie Schiavo (3 December 1963–31 March 2005), commonly known as Terri Schiavo (pronounced SHY-voh, IPA: /'ʃaɪvoʊ/), was an American woman from St. Petersburg, Florida.

I would have to say this is pretty neutral—anyone disagree? I've never liked the commonly known as phrase, but I haven't figured out a better replacement. Duckecho 15:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Terri Schiavo (3 December 1963 - 31 March 2005, full name Theresa Marie Schiavo) was an American woman from St. Petersburg, Florida ... any better? Proto 09:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not bad. Duckecho 11:12, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

"Terri Schiavo (3 December 1963 - 31 March 2005, full name Theresa Marie Schindler-Schiavo) was an American woman from St. Petersburg, Florida who became famous for the dispute over whether her feeding tube should be disconnected. She was (or possibly "she later became") a central figure in other related issues including, but not limited to, whether a brain-damaged person could be denied oral food, therapy, or additional examination, arbitrarily by the courts." Comments on this: this is NOPV, that is, not taking any particular "pro-euthanasia" or "pro-Terri" stance, and it is both brief -as well as more comprehensive than that suggestion you made. However, I will have to credit you with asking me. Had you not asked, I would have not answered, having been turned off by the recent "time-consuming" (or time-wasting?) edit wars, ya know... --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

If you can present credible evidence (not the name of some partisan website) that she ever used Schindler-Schiavo as her name then it might be worth considering. Otherwise, no. This has been discussed before. Duckecho 11:12, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Rather than Shiavo-Schindler, which I have never seen, anywhere, it could be . Don't think there's any need for a follow on sentence like GW added, as all that is covered lower. Comprehensiveness should not be a requirement of the opening paragraphs. But yes, 'arbitrarily decided' is very POV. Proto 11:39, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, that was brought up before. It's in Archive 24 (but I conveniently brought it here)

In the very first sentence of the article and in the infobox, it has her name listed as "Theresa Marie Schiavo". Would it be more appropriate to include her maiden name or just leave it as it is? I would include her maiden name, but considering this is a very controversial article and that I'm also rather new, I wanted to get people's opinions first. Thanks! Columbia 05:49, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Theresa Marie Schiavo, née Schindler" would be technically accurate, if not pedantic, and "Theresa Marie (Schindler) Schiavo" as is seen in high school reunion documents, would also suffice.

The hyphenated version used by some advocates is grossly POV and would probably offend her were she around to opine about it. Such a use is quite unconventional and represents a specific personal statement by a woman and is not one conferred by someone else. I'm unaware of any evidence that she ever used it.

Duckecho 12:55, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I know you'll never understand how arbitrarily by the courts is fatally POV, so I'll just tell you that it is, and if you try to rewrite that sentence that way, it'll be reverted. Duckecho 11:12, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I can see what you mean; "arbitrarily" anything probably doesn't belong; We report, you decide, like FOX News -let the reader decide if it is arbitrary, capricious, mercirial, biased, bad... As far as the name? Check out these: Martha Washington "Martha Dandridge Parke-Custis Washington (June 2, 1731-May 22, 1802) served as the first First Lady of the United States..." See also: Mary Todd Lincoln is the name that she is called in this link, but she is also called "Mary Ann Todd." So, Duck, an argument exists for calling Terri either by her full name (like Martha Washington is called) or by her maiden name alone (like Honest Abe's wife is called here). You take your pick. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 12:07, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Paragraph Two

On 25 February 1990, Schiavo suffered severe brain damage from cerebral hypoxia caused by bulimia-induced cardiac arrest.

I believe these are undisputed facts. There is no question she suffered brain damage, and the date is a matter of public record, as is the diagnoses of cerebral hypoxia and cardiac arrest. The bulimia was found by the court at trial, so these are all facts that shouldn't be in dispute, and as facts are NPOV. Agreed? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

There's been discussion of bulimia in the talk page since it was first raised as a 'cause' of her collapse. It is disputed for a lot of reasons. She didn't have evidence of abuse of laxitives or esphogeal damage as other signs of bulimia. In fact, they only made the inference of bulimia to explain the low potassium level. The malpractice award for not for the failure to diagnose bulimia, but to perform blood tests that possibly would have identified the low potassium level. The Schindlers, friends, and acquintances of Terri said there was no evidence of bulimia they could see and, of course, Michael himself who lived with Terri and did not urge her to be treated for bulimia before February 25 1990. Therefore I disagree and find it to be disputed that bulimia caused the collapse. patsw 21:43, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Patsw. Later in the article (Initial Medical Crisis), it states that her cardiac arrest "is believed to have been caused by bulimia-induced hypokalemia" (emphasis mine). I am not advocating a "she-collapsed-under-mysterious-circumstances-while-alone-with-Michael" wording, but feel that the Misplaced Pages article should avoid stating that her collapse "was" caused by bulimia. I recall reading that the doctor who was sued for malpractice appealed, and won the appeal (not to get the money back from Terri, but to clear his own name). And that when the Schindlers heard about this they asked for a copy of the records, but were not given them. I cannot give a source right now, because when I read that, I did not expect to need it again. Anyway, the article does mention the bulimia later on. That she collapsed and suffered brain damage is undisputed (as far as I know); that the collapse was caused by bulimia is open to question. Ann Heneghan 23:29, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Pat's and Ann's (and others') reservations have bothered me for some time, so I've gone looking. I don't know that the results of the malpractice trial are available anywhere, but there are references to it in at least three locations:

the first, the GAL Wolfson report raises the question of bulimia and although he had extensive access to both Michael and the Schindlers, I don't know what, if any, consensus he had in his remarks. It's unlikely, however, that he just made them up.

the second, Abstract Appeal, admittedly a blog, but with analysis by an actual attorney, states that the malpractice "...jury that Terri had bulimia, that her bulimia caused her cardiac arrest..." and the award for which was settled prior to appeal. I believe that finding of fact would stand since it was not appealed.

and the third, St. Pete Times article written by Gary Fox, the lead attorney in that lawsuit, states outright that Terri had bulimia. I believe that's considered a primary source.

I am sensitive to the Schindler's belief that their daughter had no part in what befell her, however, the low potassium (which triggered the cardiac arrest) was caused by something, and the cites are strong evidence that bulimia was the reason. I don't mind indicating that the Schindlers dispute that, but isn't it also fair to say that the Schindlers dispute almost everything in this case? Is it necessary to put that disclaimer in at every occurrence of a disputed fact? And no, that is not an invitation to include the POV tag to so indicate. Duckecho 19:46, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

She went into a coma for two and a half months and spent the last 15 years of her life in a condition diagnosed as an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS),

Well, that's awkward…a period is badly needed here. In any event, the two and a half month coma and the period of last 15 years as I understand it are not in dispute by anyone. Diagnosis of PVS I understand to be a subject of discussion, but those who dispute it are compelled to accept one thing: the court held a trial, accepted testimony from witnesses, and as judges are charged to do, made a decision based on the evidence that the diagnosis of PVS was correct. That ruling was upheld in a number of courts. That process is a fundamental part of our legal system. The finding by the court of PVS is a legal fact, however incorrect some people (including doctors) feel it to be. Moreover, that process is explained in the succeeding sentences, and just can't be dismissed without POV. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Schiavo's medical diagnosis of being in a persistent vegetative state was a source of major dispute between her parents (Bob and Mary Schindler) and her husband (Michael Schiavo, Schiavo's legal guardian.

That sentence can't be any more neutral or factual. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

This dispute led to numerous court cases over the course of several years.

I don't see this statement as anything but neutral. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Eight doctors examined Schiavo.

Again, this is a fact that is a matter of public record. I think the only potential failing is the use of the word examined. I accept it in the medical sense of having conducted an examination of some sort including, perhaps, some empirical testing. Some have heartburn with the amount of time spent by these doctors but none of the detractors are able to quantify the appropriate time (because there isn't any such thing). Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Six of these examining doctors (her family physician, three doctors selected by the courts, and two doctors selected by Michael) diagnosed her to be in a persistent vegetative state.

A matter of public record, however, I find the mention of Michael in this to be POV (similar sentiment expressed below). I understand that partisans on both sides of the issue would want to identify Michael or the Schindlers for a variety of reasons, but in stating the facts of the case, does it matter who selected the doctors? Otherwise factual and therefore NPOV. Agreed? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Two guardians ad litem concurred with this decision.

A matter of public record and therefore NPOV. Agreed? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The two remaining examining doctors (both selected by Schiavo's parents) disagreed that Shiavo was in a PVS.

A matter of public record, however, I find the mention of the Schindlers in this to be POV. I understand that partisans on both sides of the issue would want to identify Michael or the Schindlers for a variety of reasons, but in stating the facts of the case, does it matter who selected the doctors? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The previous sentence explicitely states who selected the doctors that diagnosed Terri as PVS (two by michael, three appointed by court). This is simply a continuation of indicating the source of the doctors selection. FuelWagon 15:17, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I just reedited to reflect that. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

To the person reading the article, it does matter who selected the doctors, because the reader would want to know if there is any conflict of interest in a doctor, how much it is, and which possible bias or conflict said doctor would have. That being said, since it mentions that doctors from both sides were selected, and who selected them it is balanced. Since it is factual and balanced, it is NPOV, and therefore OK. Duck, how could it be POV for you to mention **both** sides and who chose them?? (I'm not being smart; I really don'r understand your concern here.) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The court determined that Schiavo was indeed in a PVS, and this ruling was upheld on every appeal, by 19 different judges, both in state courts and later in federal courts.

This sentence is factual and a matter of public record, therefore by definition NPOV, agreed? My only concern is the mention of 19 different judges. I've never added them up, but it has always been a question in my mind, and sounds like a hyperbolic number copied from a long since forgotten news source. It may not be inaccurate, but it certainly shouldn't be necessary. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

My problem with this statement is that it makes it sound as if a total of 20 judges looked at all of the facts of the case and all came to the same conclusion. It is my understanding, however, that only the original judge looked at all the facts of the case, the 19 judges afterwards were simply stating their opinion on whether or not the original lawsuit was conducted properly. They were not giving their opinion on what the outcome of the case should have been. References: , -- Ravenswood 18:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to American jurisprudence. That is precisely how the system works. The two sites you, er, cited, very clearly demonstrate the vast misunderstanding of this system even as one tries to explain it. In addition to trying to put a political flavor into the case, both blogs take the tack that some judge running amuck has failed to follow the law (not just conducted the trial properly) and no one has stood up to him. However, had he failed to follow the law, some court would have overturned him. Most bloggers and dissenters haven't actually read either the court rulings or the relavent law.

I both read the law, and wrote it-in my briefs, not as a lawmaker; yet, I got further than anyone else on her side, --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

No, you didn't. If you don't quit parroting that fiction you'll never have any credibility. Bush's motion was heard in court and denied. Your motion was never even heard. By definition, he got farther than you. Duckecho 20:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

...and I (along with many Americans) concur with the conclusion the the judicial branch has a "System Failure." --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

System Failure? Let me see if I have this straight. I guess I can understand why you think Greer is off the deep end—he was the trier of fact and you didn't like his decision. But are you saying that the judges of the 2nd District, the 11th Circuit, and both Supreme Courts (and any other judges I might have missed) are all part of this failure? Is there not one court in the land that operates within the law of the land? Not the law as imagined by Gordo, but the constitutional and statutory law of the land. Duckecho 20:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

"Let me see if I have this straight...are you saying that the judges of the 2nd District, the 11th Circuit, and both Supreme Courts (and any other judges I might have missed) are all part of this failure?" Yes. You got it. My proof may not be accepted by you, but here it is: --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 20:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

(alleged proof aka biblical references pertinent to only a select group of theists and no atheists moved to the sand box below. Sorry, FuelWagon, I didn't think you'd want to go, too) Duckecho 00:05, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Hm, so the sentence is "19 judges upheld this ruling" and you are now quoting scripture ??? Could we possibly get any more irrelevant? I'm starting to think the best response to Gordo is "(1)revert on sight. (2)do not engage. (3) do not respond." I encourage others to follow this practice. This is going nowhere. FuelWagon 21:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

If you don't believe in the Bible, that is fine; however, Duck asked a question, and I answered it -and told him why I believed the way I did. Last time I checked, I had the freedom of religion (to believe as I see fit) and freedom of speech (to answer Duck , telling him the aforementioned). If you don't like it, that's your perogative, but you need to mind your own business: If I'm not monkeying with you, don't worry about it: It doesn't concern you. Maybe you should simply not engage. ... not respond." By the way: I not only supported my views (with the Bible), but I suppoted the Bible views #1-4 with "scripture" 5, which HAS come true, and thus lends credibility to 1-4. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 22:08, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordo, you have the freedom of religion all you want. Just don't go and cry "freedom of religion" as a defense for barfing up six paragraphs of bible quotes as if they have anything to do with whether those 19 Judges properly followed the law. Could you get anymore non-sequitor? My penguin needs fleecing, so it must be true. FuelWagon 22:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok, ok... see my answer to Ghost, which echoes your point. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 22:27, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

No, the appeals courts never actually looked at the evidence, at least in any meaningful way. For the appeals court to say "well, if we had look at the evidence," or words to that effect, only proved that they had not looked at it. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, your personal views on Original sin are entirely irrelevant to this, or any article. No matter how well documented. In addition, Canon law can have no more (or less) weight in a U.S. courts than Sharia. Thus you're arguments (no matter how spiritually valid) are a waste of space and breath. Please remove them.--ghost 21:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, Ghost, would it have been better for me to have simply said "No, I don't think ANY of the courts were correct," in answer to Duck? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 22:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

"Is there not one court in the land that operates within the law of the land?" Actually, judges Wilson and Tjoflat got it correct: , , & . These guys are judges; you are not. Trust "Judges Wilson, Tjoflat dissent from full court rejection " http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1111572311264 --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 20:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

That isn't at all what the 2nd District said. In fact they said, "this court has closely examined all of the evidence in the record." They "carefully observ the video tapes in their entirety." They concluded that "...if we were called upopn to review the guardianship court's decision de novo we would still affirm it."

2nd DCA 2D02-5394 Duckecho 20:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I thought you were about positing facts? Your speculation, inaccurate paraphrasing ("or words to that effect"), and specious conclusions don't even remotely resemble the facts. The 2nd DCA's actual words (and link) were quoted just a few lines below for you to review. You still couldn't get it right. That's why people are having a hard time with your rhetoric. Duckecho 20:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the sentence, "The court determined that Schiavo was indeed in a PVS, and this ruling was upheld on every appeal, by 19 different judges, both in state courts and later in federal courts," however sickening, is factually correct, and I support its language. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 10:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Wow! It only took us how many weeks to get you to grasp what was there all the time? Now why don't you go work on your buddy NCdave and get him to grasp it? Duckecho 20:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

In fact, you, too, are also wrong in that the 2nd DCA, when reviewing the 2002 trial (which ruled that Terri was in a PVS), stated that, "...if we were called upopn to review the guardianship court's decision de novo we would still affirm it." 2nd DCA 2D02-5394. Clearly they not only looked at the rulings but they reviewed the evidence and testimony.

Having said all of that, and reiterating my reservations about stating an actual number of judges, I'd be just as happy if the sentence read, "that the ruling of the court was upheld on appeal at every level of state and federal courts." Keep in mind, upheld happens when a court specifically upholds the ruling, and also when a court declines to hear the case. Affirmance is affirmance in our system. Duckecho 20:27, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

"Affirmance is affirmance in our system." "System failure" would be a more accurate descriptor. Nonetheless, I think you're right, Duck: It's probably safer to simply state "that the ruling of the court was upheld on appeal at every level of state and federal courts," as you suggest. I think Wagon's buddy is correct: To uphold means simply to review and decide to not overturn. What is a "fundamental feature of American law," as you say, however does not necessarily mean that the denial of a trial was justified. In fact, there was a trial for medical malpractice, which awarded like 300 grand to Mikey Baby and like 700 Grand to Terri, but the money "for Terri" was NOT spent for Terri. You go figure... Justice? Heh! Equality? Heh! None of these happen in this land of inequity, unless you have "the force" ...of "rich and famous" power!--GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 21:11, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I believe mia-cle is the lawyer/editor for this article, and I believe the last word from mia-cle was this wording was accurate. "upheld" means "upheld". It doesn't mean the case was retried at every level up through 19 judges, since I believe its a fundamental feature of American law that you only have one trial unless new evidence is submitted that justifies a new trial. FuelWagon 00:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Paragraph Three

The judicial and legislative battles to prevent the disconnect of her gastric feeding tube generated tremendous media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, euthanasia and civil rights.

Can anyone argue with that sentence? Seems NPOV to me. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Duck, you da man! It's right on & a OK. So, why'd Neutrality omit the euthanasia link in this diff? That deletion wasn't POV, but it sure was weird, because the Schiavo case's main debate was euthanasia. The other issues were central, but only later. (I'm not picking on Neutrality: He's left me alone for a while and picked on other people, so I'm all happy.) Actually, Duck, you need a comma here to make it correct: "federalism, euthanasia, and civil rights." See e.g., Oxford comma. I give credit to Ann Henegan's web page for this point. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 11:04, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

What a load. Euthanasia was removed from the article subsequent to the posting of my sentence-by-sentence proposal, and no longer appears there. I support its absence. It was most certainly not the main issue. While there may be some who think there was an euthanasia issue, by the Florida Statutes the discontinuance of life support in accordance with the wishes of the patient is not euthanasia. Consequently, there is no debate, unless it's with the statutes. You'll have to fight that battle elsewhere. Duckecho 12:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, discontinuance of life with the patients wishes would more properly be classed :"assisted suicide" if it involved more than mere "life prolonging procedures." That is, if food were denied as well as feeding tubes, then "assisted suicide" would be the "issue" if it were the patient's wish (e.g., Kevorkian action), and if it were NOT the patient's wish, then "euthanasia" would be the act. What Terri's wishes WERE is not known and not the subject of this article. The actual facts of record ARE. Namely, a large number of issues came to the forefront when the Schiavo case became publicized, and it is a matter of record that Euthanasia was one of them:

For example, A: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=euthanasia+schiavo has about 164,000 hits of pages with BOTH terms in them.

By contrast, B: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=bioethics+schiavo&btnG=Search has only like 44,300 hits in google.

Additionally, C: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=federalism+schiavo&btnG=Search has even less, at: 33,400

Let's look at example D: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22legal+guardianship%22+schiavo ...wow! Only 583 hits. Not much of an issue, now is it?

See my point? By the numbers (the objective analysis), you are a-wrong, b-wrong, and c-wrong again. But I'm not arguing AGAINST you in the total sense. I support the listing of these items: I'm an inclusionist, like I've seen Neutrality claim on his page. So, it mystifies me why he wouldn't practice what he preaches?... Since these are not links to the home page of moi, you can be assured I have no vested interest and am not biased. Also, the numbers support my assertions, undermining your reputation as an intelligent ham radio operator. Oh, by the way, thank you for mentioning it: I forgot to mention on my WIKI home page I'm a licensed Ham "super duper" Extra, but you reminded me. Thx again, Duck. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 13:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordo, stick to ham radio. You use the word "inclusionist" as a means to cover the fact that you want anything that is unsubstantiated, unverified, to be "included" in the article. By that token, the article should simply say that Iyer accused Michael of attempting to murder Terri by insulin injection at least 5 separate times. And as inclusionists, we should simply leave that unfounded and unevidenced accusation to stand on its own. Sorry. When someone crys "Witch!" you are either part of the witchhunt or you are part or reason. The term "euthenasia" is part of a witchhunt. Terri wasn't euthenized and anything that says as much deserves to be on a partisan blog, not wikipedia. FuelWagon 15:32, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm using WIDE margins to save space. Anyhow... First, Wagon, let me assure you that Iyer's accusation CAN be documented as having happened. (She got it notarized, so it's legit.) Now, whether she was telling the truth is not so easy to document, so this allegation can not be presented as fact. "By that token, the article should simply say that Iyer accused Michael of attempting to murder Terri by insulin injection at least 5 separate times." OK, that sounds right, so take a chill pill. I'm not going to revert neutral facts. As far as the use of "euthanasia," the article was CORRECT before Neutrality edited that out: Indeed, it is true that the Schiavo case sparked debate in this area. Whether Terri was euthanized or not is not our job: We're not the court, last I heard, and the claim there was debate was ...uh, ...TRUE! Now, as far as your comment that says claims of Terri being euthanized belonging only on a blog, yes, but what's the big huff over this? The comment that Schiavo "sparked debate" is NOT equal to having said she WAS euthanized! Man, you're dense... Also, euthanasia appears to be the highest topic "sparked" by the blood of Terri Schiavo being spilt, whether such spilling was justified or not. Numbers back me up. Re-read my diffs. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 17:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

For clarity, euthanasia refers to the active ending of someone's life, and not the withdrawal of life suppot / medicines / etc. If going by what's on the euthanasia page, the Terri Schiavo situation could be considered 'passive' or 'involuntary' euthanasia, although I'm not convinced those are even medical terms, rather definition created by pro-life lobbies. Proto 15:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Now that I'm cooled down (color change), Proto, your definition is correct, but so? First, Terri was not merely denied some "procedures" like feeding tube, or 20,000 machines and heroic measure drugs. She was denied FOOD AND WATER, hello? Or, did you not know? Even this WIKI page covers that, so re-read? Furthermore, so what? So what if Terri was not starved, but instead was merely denied some extraordinary treatment? What's your point? If you've followed the Wagon "train" and think that the comments about which topics that the Schiavo debate sparked," please see my comments above; I shant repeat myself here. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 17:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, by Catholic definition, the removal of Terri's feeding tube was euthanasia, even if it wasn't under Florida law. (The reason for the Catholic argument is that the removal of the tube caused her to die from lack of food and hydration, not from her illness. Catholic teaching allows feeding tubes to be removed if the patient is dying anyway, and if the feeding is just adding to the burden - as, for example, if the patient is vomiting a lot in the last few days of life.) Terri, at the time of her collapse, was a practising Catholic. Her family appealed often to Catholic moral theology. Bishops, and even the Vatican, made statements about the issue. Obviously, there's no reason why Misplaced Pages would go by the Catholic definition and say that it was euthanasia. But they could at least acknowledge that this battle "sparked a fierce debate over . . . . euthanasia", which would be true. This isn't the place to discuss whether the Catholic Church or the Florida State is right about what amounts to euthanasia. But the issue of euthanasia was highly relevant in this story. I think it's fair to say that that was why so many pro-life people became involved. By the way, Neutrality, perhaps you wouldn't mind using edit summaries? I think that Misplaced Pages recommend that. Some people may feel snubbed if something they write is changed or reverted without comment. Thanks. Ann Heneghan 17:52, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct, Ann. However, in addressing the more difficult argument (which did not give Terri the benefit of protections of her religious rights and freedom to worship as she saw fit), I made it easier to show she was a denied individual. Since she DID have protections of free exercise of religion (a 1st amendment "right" here in "free" AmeriKa), her victimization was even more obvious, if the reader of my comments was not PVS. "Take care of hard arguments first, and the rest are defeated." With regards to edit summaries, yes, that's a good idea. However, how do you know that someone didn't contact God Himself, the highest Wikipedian, and appeal the perceived behavior of Neutrality? That is not outside the realm of possibility. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 18:27, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Michael Schiavo contends that he carried out his wife's wishes not to be kept alive in a state such as a persistent vegetative state.

I don't see anything to argue about in that sentence. Agreed? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

This became another source of major dispute between Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers.

Can't possibly be an argument there, can there? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Mrs. Schiavo had no living will, and both sides brought their case before the courts.

Indisputable, correct? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Mrs. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, vigorously appealed the judicial decisions, leading to the reinsertion of the feeding tube on two separate occasions after its removal.

Is vigorously POV? Didn't all parties vigorously pursue their points? Did one party litigate more vigorously than the other? I think that's a biasing word and should be stricken, agreed? However, it's presence does not merit a POV tag. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I see you took vigourously out. could you put something in that at least indicates multiple appeals, multiple cases, multiple motions, etc? Otherwise, it says they appealed (assuming once) and that it led to the removal of Terri's feeding tube three times. the math doesn't add up. FuelWagon 02:20, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think it does assume that. For example, in the second paragraph it says, "he dispute led to numerous court cases...", in the third paragraph it says, "...both sides brought their case before the courts...", followed by "...appealed the judicial decisions...", and further, the mention of two reinsertions and a third disconnection. It seems to me that the idea of multiple filings is clearly represented. But I'm not so wedded to this portion of the edit as I am to the others. However, if it really annoys you, how about Mrs. Schiavo's parents...filed numerous (or multiple) appeals of the judicial decisions... Duckecho 03:23, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Leave it. Lemme sit on it a couple days. If it still bothers me, I'll bring it up. I'm getting an ulcer. FuelWagon 03:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

The courts all ruled in favor of Schiavo's husband, and the feeding tube was removed a third and final time.

Is there any dispute or lack of neutrality in this sentence? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

On 18 March, 2005, with the Schindlers having exhausted their legal options, they brought their dispute to Florida Governor Jeb Bush, the U.S. Congress, President George W. Bush, and the mass media as her feeding tube was removed a third and final time. Schiavo died on 31 March 2005 at around 9:05 a.m. EST.

Aside from the awkward construction of that sentence, is there anything inaccurate or POV about it? Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

What is with the very non-standard (both on Misplaced Pages and certainly in American English) date format here?? It should be March 18, 2005 and March 31, 2005. Moncrief 21:34, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

Non-standard (or perhaps more correctly, non-familiar) to you perhaps, but I am 59 years American, have 42 years in ham radio, and 30 years with the FAA, and I assure you that 31 March, 2005 is very standard throughout the world. Perhaps it's not so obvious when spelled out, but if you write 3/11/05 in a communique with someone in another part of the world, it is virtually guaranteed to be read as November 3rd. It's also standard in our (U.S.) military. As this encyclopedia is an international resource, I recommend its continued use. Duckecho 23:08, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

31 March, 2005 is very standard throughout the world. No, it isn't. "March 31, 2005" and "31 March 2005" maybe, but "31 March, 2005" (note the comma) isn't. --Calton | Talk 00:44, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Comma, no comma. That's about 2% of the point I was making. Thank you for your contribution. Duckecho 02:29, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Moncrief. Here's something I only recently discovered. When dates have Misplaced Pages links, the date preferences that you have set under the "date format" option of your "preferences" (at the top of each page) will be appear on your screen. So if you code March 31, 2005, someone with date preference set to "month day, year" will see "March 31, 2005", while someone with date preference set to "yyyy-mm-dd" will see "2005-03-31". Ann Heneghan 23:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Fortunately, the article itself has the form that's generally seen on Misplaced Pages,and that most Americans use (Misplaced Pages policy: articles about U.S. subjects written with U.S. conventions). The last thing we need to argue about on this article with so many multi-pronged arguments, is date format (and I'm sorry I brought it up). And rereading Ann's post above mine, I see it's all a matter of code anyway. Brilliant! So it's a moot point. At any rate, it would be incongrous to have conventions associated with the U.K. and other countries in an article about this most American of subjects (but if you have your prefs set that way, more power to you). Moncrief 00:48, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

An autopsy has been performed, but the results have not yet been released.

I don't see how one could argue with these two facts, and the second can be modified with some detail once the facts in the medical examiner's report become available. Duckecho 16:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there any possible argument or POV with these first three paragraphs (apart from any I've identified)? Please enumerate, one by one, with facts and cites if you don't agree. Please indent and sign your comments for clarity.Duckecho 12:02, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm prepared to do the next section of the article this same way. I'll wait a couple of days so as not to overwhelm casual readers with a ton of new material. Unless there is objection to this methodology, of course. Duckecho 18:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd wait to see if this approach solves anything before starting the next section. FuelWagon 19:08, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts, Duckecho. This will take a long time, but could be very helpful. Ann Heneghan 21:29, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The opening section is much too long

It's nice that you're doing a sentence-by-sentence exposure to get people to realize that this article is pretty NPOV, but could we also work on trimming down the first few paragraphs? The huge block of text in the first section is almost unreadable.... there's just too much information for an introduction, and not enough indication of why we need to know all this information up front. Moncrief 21:36, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

I wrote the intro to contain more summary information because the article as a whole is a behomouth. If someone wants to get the gist of what the heck happened to Terri, they shouldn't have to wade through gobs and gobs of minutia. Most of the minutia is there because folks complain about something being left out is hiding the fact that Michael wanted to murder Terri or some such nonsense. If the article were trimmed down, then I'd say cut the intro down to one paragraph. But as long as the article is going to go into endless, mind-numbing detail, then I'd say to make the intro have enough context about Terri so they have some context to put the rest of the article in. FuelWagon 00:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

"To better care for his wife"

This content has been quoted in many places, from the now missing AJC obit to the current linked Newsweek article, which I believe is based on interviews and reports. I recall reading it in a source document or interview transcript but cannot remember which. The quote apparently comes from testimony Michael gave at the malpractice trial. At least I know where to find it now. --Viriditas | Talk 00:52, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

From testimony of Michael Schiavo dated 11-05-92, CASE NO. 92-939-15, :

16 Q. Michael, have you started to go to nursing school?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Where did you go to nursing school?

19 A. I'm going -- I'm attending St. Pete Junior

20 College.

21 Q. When did you start?

22 A. Approximately a year ago.

23 Q. When do you hope to finish?

24 A. We're looking at something like 1994.

25 Q. Why did you want to learn to be a nurse?

___

27

1 A. Because I enjoy it and I want to learn more how

2 to take care of Terry.

3 Q. You're a young man. Your life is ahead of you.

4 Your future is beyond you. Up the road, when you look up

5 the road, what do you see for yourself?

6 A. I see myself hopefully finishing school and taking

7 care of my wife.

8 Q. Where do you want to take care of your wife?

9 A. I want to bring my wife home.

10 Q. If you had the resources available to you, if you

11 had the equipment and the people, would you do that?

12 A. Yes, I would, in a heartbeat.

13 Q. How do you feel about being married to Terry now?

14 A. I feel wonderful. She's my life and I wouldn't

15 trade her for the world. I believe in my -- I believe in my

16 wedding vows.

Cats

Look everybody, I'm the definitive "pro-Terri" person on board at the moment, and I don't think the cats' loss of their 9 lives is any major point in my quest to give Terri juscice. OK? man... talk about wasting time I don't have a problem with it being mentioned somewhere as an objection that maybe Terri's family/friends raised or as some minor supporting evidence that Michael didn't really care for Terri, but for crying out loud, it is just a minor point, and should NOT take up like more than 1-2 sentences -if that. Good grief, Charlie Brown, can we actually look at real stuff... --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 11:26, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

No, Gordon. You're the definitive "pro-Gordon" person on board. Stop beating your chest before your pride consumes you. I don't think that most of your efforts have honored Terri. They attempt to honor you. Try this, the next time you want to edit: Pretend your name is now....I don't know, Chuck. Ask yourself, "If I were Chuck, how could I help improve this article?" Perhaps by neutralizing your ego, you can love (and value) your fellow editors as much as you appear to love yourself. And then we can honor Terri by moving forward.--ghost 22:04, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the current article regarding Michael Schiavo's action of putting Terri's cats to sleep, as mentioned in the Nov. 1993 deposition and guardianship hearing. Since they were Terri's cats, does anyone think this should be added to the article? --Viriditas | Talk 10:28, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Did he give her old clothes away to Goodwill? Did he destroy her 45s? What happened to her car? Whenever that's been brought up I've wondered how does that add to Terri's story? My consistent, inescapable conclusion is, it doesn't. Duckecho 11:33, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Putting aside your specious comment (the destruction of beloved pets is not similar to getting rid of old clothes, nor can I see how that comparison could be made in good faith)...

To those who detest cats, that's exactly what it's like. I don't know that Michael was in that category, but I could certainly identify with it if he was. Duckecho 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

...and sticking to the facts at hand, the timeline is sorely lacking data between 1992 and 1993.

I hope that isn't the justification for adding the disposition of the cats. Duckecho 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

In 1992, Michael states that he is attending nursing school to help his wife and hopes to bring her home. According to the deposition approximately one year later, he is putting Terri's pets to sleep and making preparations for her death (i.e. making the decision not to treat Terri's bladder infection, and according to the deposition, he is making a conscious decision to allow Terri to die from untreated sepsis, also briefly mentioned in the Wolfson GAL report). Clearly, this adds to the story, although the details need to be worked out.

I don't see how, but it's not an issue I'm going to go to the mat about. Duckecho 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

For example, proponents in the Schindler camp claim that Michael made the decision to get rid of the pest...

And at least one of the proponents in the Schindler camp uses it as evidence that Michael was a heartless bastard and that euthanizing the cats was just one more form of abuse and that discontinuing Terri's life support was merely an extension of that act. Duckecho

...whereas the testimony by Michael puts the blame on Mrs. Schindler.

But, again, I ask, how does this spat between Michael and Mary help tell Terri's story? Duckecho 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

It fleshes out the timeline and family dispute section. I propose splitting the family dispute section and adding it there, as it doesn't deserve to be in the main article. We should not ignore facts, especially as they are part of the official public record. In this case, the cat content helps illustrate the period between 1992 and 1993 when the family dispute first started. In 1992, Michael is studying to become a nurse to help Terri and bring her home, and a year later he is putting her cats to sleep and contemplating her death. This is part of the public record. Further, it should be stated that according to Michael, Mrs. Schindler advised him to have the cats euthanized. A response from the Schindlers would be appropriate as well. This all fits the family dispute section. --Viriditas | Talk 00:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

There's also a question of source documents, as much of this testimony is found on biased sites. I haven't been able to find these documents on neutral sites, which I find frustrating. --Viriditas | Talk 12:10, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, that is the problem and is my concern. Duckecho 15:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• I would have killed the cats, too. --AStanhope 15:43, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Please don't get off-topic. People have enough text to slog through on this page already. Thanks. Ravenswood 19:03, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• The secton is called "Cats" and it is about whether or not Michael Schiavo was a bastard for killing the cats. My deep understanding for anti-cat bloodlust is hardly off topic. --AStanhope 19:22, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

My first thought was that you're just being silly. But perhaps you are being serious and you can't understand why your previous comment was off-topic, so I'll spell it out. 1) The question of whether or not Michael Shiavo is a bastard is not under debate (as far as I know). The 'cats' incident was not raised to show that he is a bastard, but to show that he was already acting as if his wife were dead. 2) If you are attempting to demonstrate that Michael Shiavo is 'normal' because he hates cats and you are offering yourself as an example, then you have failed to prove anything because you have offered no evidence that you are normal. -- Ravenswood 19:50, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

BTW, this entire discussion between us is off-topic, and I apologize to everyone else for having participated in it. -- Ravenswood 19:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

• The fact that he killed the cat(s) is most certainly being held up by the anti-Michael Schiavo people as evidence that he was a bad person. In fact, I dare say that there are those among us who are firmly in the anti-Michael Schiavo camp whose primary issue with him was his penchant for felinicide. If we can't recognize and acknowledge that there are people who are coming to the table here with a clear POV re: one or more of the principals of this story then we'll never be able to get to the bottom of this strange and terrible story. --AStanhope 22:11, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Astanhope. There's a difference between a fair reporting of the issues in question, and doing dirt digging. This, I think, oversteps the line. Michael could have killed the cats for any number of reasons, and adding this to the article would be to espouse one particular point of view. If this, then what next? Michael Schiavo hates his mother? Michael Schiavo is a crappy driver? Again, the title of this article is Terri Schiavo, not Character assassination of Michael Schiavo.--Fangz 22:56, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

According to the testimony given by Michael Schiavo, he put Terri's cats to sleep at the urging of Mrs. Schindler, so we don't have to appeal to "any number of reasons". This is a matter of record, but it appears to be contested by the Schindlers, like many of the other issues. I raised this issue not to attack Michael (I am not in the anti-Michael Schiavo camp) but to fill out the timeline and address Michael Schiavo's change of attitude (which he openly admits) from 1992 to 1993, which is discussed in the GAL report as well. I think it's important to address these issues, as they are relevant to the Terri Schiavo case, but perhaps not as important on the main page. As proposed earlier last month, I would like to split the family dispute section, and add it to that page. I'm also wondering why these deposition source documents are not found on neutral sites, and can only be found on anti-Michael Schiavo pages. There should be a central repository for these documents, particularly on the university sites, but this doesn't appear to be the case. I am in agreement with others in that it seems unnecssary to add this issue to the main article. --Viriditas | Talk 00:13, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

The lack of a lot of affidavits, or as you say, deposition source documents on other than the a-MS pages has another common theme as well—at least with the ones I've looked at—they show up as a plain text page; no source, no attributes, no signed by, no other links, nothing but plain text. Any idiot with a text editor and five minutes of an HTML tutorial can produce such text. At least the court orders, for the most part, are clearly photocopies of actual documents. Duckecho 00:27, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

So, where are the affidavits? LexisNexis? --Viriditas | Talk 00:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Putting his wife's cats to sleep is so irrelevant that I'm amazed how quickly this section exploded. Fact: Michael put Terri's cats to sleep. So what? What people are bent out of shape about is trying to twist this fact into some reflection of internal thinking on Michael's part. i.e. "therefore Michael hated Terri". Terri's internal wishes about being kept alive on a machine had a court case to decide it, and even after all that, people are still arguing about the results. The meaning behind Michael putting the cats to sleep is not known and will never be known (I assume the courts aren't going to waste hundreds of thousands of dollars to determine whether Michael committed cat-icide or whether it was the best thing under the circumstances). So you have one fact (Michael put the cats to sleep) and a bunch of he-said/she-said crap going on. It's all heresay. And it's all worthless. And any argument to the effect of "let the reader decide" is conveniently ignoring the power of accusation even in the face of no evidence. And I for one will not stand to see wikipedia being used by folks to accuse people they despise of being a witch and "let the reader determine their innocence". FuelWagon 14:19, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

"The meaning behind Michael putting the cats to sleep is not known and will never be known (I assume the courts aren't going to waste hundreds of thousands of dollars to determine whether Michael committed cat-icide..." The subject of "cat-icide," formerly known as "felinocide" is properly explained by the resident expert (moi) at the very top of this subsection: and saved at this . Meow, meow, WHACK!! ... (pause) meow... (he had 9 lives) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 11:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

This article is too long already (over twice as long as the 32K recommendation), so I would tend to think that unless this is something really relevant (which it isn't), let's not put it in this article. JYolkowski // talk 16:51, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad this issue was addressed. The meaning, as FuelWagon states, cannot be determined, but I think its important to flesh out the timeline and to directly address these types of claims, not ignore them or pooh-pooh them away. Even better, a talk index sorted by topic would greatly improve this process, so we don't have to keep bringing the same topics up again. I know the cat thing was covered some time ago, but I don't recall the outcome. In any case, I have yet to be able to find the source documents for these kind of claims, even though some of them can be found on less than neutral sites. I would like to be able to link to primary sources (affadavits, etc) if necessary, especially in regards to the "to better care for his wife" paraphrase. Once again, does anyone know of good, neutral sites that have these documents? --Viriditas | Talk 14:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

The important question is, did Michael Schiavo actually kill the cats, or was there an order given to remove their feeding bowls? Proto 14:28, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, boys and girls; how about this for an opener?

Here is my attempt at editing the opening section. All of the points that everyone seems to want to be made that I excised from this opening section are still covered in depth (or should be in subsequent edits) later in the article.

Theresa Marie Schiavo (IPA: /'ʃaɪvoʊ/)(December 3, 1963–March 31, 2005), or Terri , was an American woman from St. Petersburg, Florida. In 1990, she suffered brain damage from cerebral hypoxia following bulimia-induced cardiac arrest. She went into a coma for two and a half months and spent the last 15 years of her life in an irreversible persistent vegetative state (PVS). Because Ms. Schiavo had no living will, ultimately the court determined that she would not wish to be kept on life support in such a state.

The judicial and legislative battles between Michael Schiavo (Ms. Schiavo's legal guardian) and her parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, over the diagnosis of PVS, removal of life support (gastric feeding tube), and other aspects of Schiavo's circumstances generated tremendous media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights. Once appeals had been exhausted, the feeding tube was removed on March 18, 2005, even as the Schindlers continued to pursue their dispute to Florida Governor Jeb Bush, the U.S. Congress, President George W. Bush, and the mass media. Terri Schiavo died on March 31, 2005.

Your comments and suggestions welcome. Duckecho 01:56, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Is this the entire intro? See, this is exactly the sort of thing I was afraid would happen. We're chasing our tail once again. This rewrite is far different from the version that everyone commented on above, and yet there are only a few points that people disputed. If you completely rewrite the intro, then there will be a whole other list of disputes that will come up because of the changes. Could we keep the intro as close as possible to the way it is and only change stuff to fix problems that people identify as POV? Otherwise, we'll end up going through this new intro on a sentence by sentence basis and end up with another version after that. No offence meant to you duck, I'm just too cynical at this point to believe we'll ever hit a point where everyone is happy with the article or the intro, which means we have to put up with some partisans being completely irate at the way the article is worded. FuelWagon 14:11, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that was the entire into. I give up. In the sentence-by-sentence analysis, the sole comments consisted of a complaint about bulimia (rebutted with cites), a complaint about the date format (sheesh; rebutted), and a complaint about our 200+ year old system of justice (rebutted). Finally, there was a separate complaint about the intro being too long. Granted, some of our heaviest hitting gadflies never weighed in, so we don't know just exactly how irritated they are with it as it exists. Aside from the occasional POV complaint from the you-know-whos, the only other bitches I see are about bloat, length, and readibility (essentially based on bloat). So what's your idea? Leave it as is? Does the article as it exists meet your standard of a wikipedia finished product? Duckecho 14:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Duck, the thing is that the individuals who keep putting the POV tag on the article never have anything specific to point to. NCdave gave a laundry list above, but I replied to each, and most of his stuff comes down to the fact that he wants to rewrite wikipedia in the POV of blogsforterri or similar. That isn't wikipedia's job. As an example, the three-dozen doctors who watched video from teh Schindlers and signed affidavits saying Terri should get more testing doesn't deserve to be presented out of context. That sort of information needs to be provided in the context of 5 hours of video edited by the Schindlers down to 5 minutes of video and shown to doctors. You can't simply say three-dozen doctors disputed the court's ruling and bury the full story deep down in the article. ya know, important little tidbits like "they didn't actually examine terri". That's what certain individuals want to do. You can't let people putting the POV tag on the article wear you down to the point where you're changing the article based on vague, non-specific complaints, in hopes that they'll be happy. They won't. You've got to demand they present specific POV problems in specific parts of the article and you've got to demand that they present URL's to back it up, preferably a URL to a non-blog source. Otherwise they're simply complaining that the article hasn't been written with the same viewpoint that they see in blogsforterri. And nothing can change that unless wikipedia changes its purpose from facts to advocacy. FuelWagon 16:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

You're preaching to the choir. I've been in on this since around the 1st of April (although not always with this username), and I've experienced in real time the nuttyness that has occured. I'm fully on board with you on all you say above, maybe even more so in some cases. I was responding to what seemed like a reasonable concern about the size of the intro. Frankly, I think the concern is well taken. But given the comment below, perhaps sizewise, it's not so bad. I do think it goes into some more detail than is desirable in an intro. I don't care what NCdave thinks. Duckecho 18:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

As for whether the article meets my "standard of a wikipedia finished product", I'd say no. The intro is pretty good as far as I can see. Yes, it's a little long, but the article is much longer. The article as a whole doesn't meet my standard of a finished product. There are some bits here and there that have been put in to satisfy NCdave and other extremists. NCdave's infatuation with Greer's denial of the Schindlers motion to feed terri by "natural means" lead to a whole new subsection in the article to explain that motion as well as the pieces before and after it. The motion was nonsense and Greer threw it out, but NCdave insists that the article is POV unless it mentions it. So it's in there. Same goes for the section devoted to Iyer's affidavit. Her affidavit is a complete fabrication, Greer rules it as such, but NCdave kept harping on it in the talk page, so I gave a bit by bit analysis to put the affidavit in context and explain how Greer came to the ruling he did. This kind of crap is what makes the article so long. But if someone has been brainwashed by blogsforterri and they come over to wikipedia thinking that Michael abused Terri, wanted her dead to keep her from testifying, wanted her lawsuit money for himself, that Greer is in on the conspiracy, and that Felos is a lawyer mercenary, then it's probably good that the article has these pieces of mythology explained in detail and put into proper context. This also means that the brainwashed Don Quixotes who refuse to see a windmill will continue to pound on the article for being POV because it doesn't tell the "truth" of murder, deception, and cat-icide. I've come to teh realization that these morons simply need to be resisted because nothing but a complete rewrite of the article to hang michael will satisfy them. FuelWagon 16:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the court order is quite specific regarding the "natural means" feeding but I don't think the reasoning explained therein is well reflected in the article. Obviously, NCdave has never read it, because if he had he'd never raise the issue. Jeez, that must be a wonderful life to float along in complete ignorance, never having to face a real fact head on. Duckecho 18:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

In response to the introduction being too long comment, Misplaced Pages:Lead section recommends that, for an article >30K, the lead section should be three paragraphs. So, it's not too long right now. I also tend to agree with FuelWagon that this is going to re-open up more cans of worms; I can see some old debates that we've had being re-opened if this were the introduction. JYolkowski // talk 16:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, consider the proposal withdrawn. Duckecho 18:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

archived

I've archived all conversation threads that haven't been touched in the last 7 days, because it was making my computer cry having to load 322 kb every time. Proto 14:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for that. My eight year old computer was wheezing towards its last legs processing all of it, and my dialup connection didn't help, either. Duckecho 15:25, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Palm Sunday Compromise rewrite

A ghost, I liked how you fleshed out this paragraph. With all due respect, I made a couple of style changes, a couple of spelling corrections, added a little detail, and de-POVed the quorum question. Despite almost always leads to POV, and although the point of no quorum was an issue for me as an amateur parliamentarian, I felt it was better to neutralize the phrase. I hope you don't mind. Duckecho 00:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm definitely no apologist for George Bush, but I'm not sure the reference to the Red Lake tragedy is germane to the article on Terri. It wouldn't bother me to see it in Bush's article, however... Duckecho 05:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Oral feeding order

Would it be possible to set to rest the issue of the denial of oral feeding order that crops up from time to time? I feel strongly that those that keep raising it have not read the order. In it you'll find that multiple swallowing tests were performed (how many is necessary to satisfy the cabal?) CO of 7 March 2000 Frankly, after reading the order, I can't understand how the issue keeps coming up. In fact, a good assignment for anyone interested in the case (not just wanting to push a particular POV) is to read all of the orders available. I can't help but feel that you may come away with a little better feeling, not only about the efficacy of the judicial process as a whole, but the intellect and integrity of the judges involved—even if you disagree with their judgements. Duckecho 02:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The liar Iyer affidavit

Here's another one that I'd like to see put to bed. I'm not sure what the staffing levels have been over the years at the various institutions in which Terri Schiavo resided, but at the very least, I believe it takes seven people to provide 24/7 shift coverage (I used to do scheduling occasionally when I was with the FAA). Now, theoretically, there could have been a maximum of seven health care providers that travelled with Terri on her journey from 1990 until 2005, but I think even the most avid detractors would concede that there have more likely been dozens, if not hundreds, of health care professionals that have been involved with her over the years.

I said all of that to say this: if any of the allegations in the Iyer affidavit were true, is it not reasonable to conclude that out of the dozens or hundreds of others that have been involved in her care, there had to be corroborating charges? There were a total of four similar affidavits. NCdave likes to speak of Michael Schiavo mysteriously remembering Terri's wishes, but I have to wonder about Carla Iyer (and three cohorts) mysteriously appearing in 2001 to make allegations of events from six years earlier. I also have to wonder why the Schindlers did not bring them to court for the 2000 and 2002 trials. That shortcoming was cited in at least one of the court orders in those trials.

In the article, Greer's denouncing of Iyer's affidavit is quoted (and is damning). This cite should be added and as I stated above, all should read it who haven't in order to get a more accurate flavor of what was said and done (and ordered) than is reported in the blogosphere. CO of 17 September 2003 Duckecho 02:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Don Quixote's Whack-a-Mole Corral -- a place where you-know-who's off topic rants 'n ramblings belong. Respond at your peril. If someone's responses got here in error, feel free to move them back

Baylink & Fox1, an anonymous person deleted your comments, but I saw them in the diff: No, I'm not a doctor, but I am one of many voices, which collectively add up to being noteworthy of mentioned on Wiki. Also, my roles in the Schiavo saga was unique, and more than Joe Average Citizen's role, who wants to know what happened and depends on Wiki. Also, Fox, I'll try not to be too talkitive on the talk page. To the anonymous person having trouble seeing the recent entries, click on the "history" tab above and then click on the "last" tabs to see what was recently added. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 08:27, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I apologize, Ghost, if my coloring was distractive. However, I noticed that I could get more talk in less space if I expanded out to the full margin and didn't indent with the ":::" colons. However, my reply might get missed if I didnt indent, so I tried coloring it a little. In fact, in some boards, everybody has their own color. For example, on one AOL Terri Schiavo message board: One anti-Terri guy used red; a woman who was anti-Terri used Medium Brown, bold faced and a certain font, Ariel, I think. I typically used font "Times New Roman, which was cool because the #1 and the "l" that is, the small letter "L" didn't look the same. I used blue or green, like the "good Jedi knights," to differentiate myself from the guy who used red, like the Dark Sith Lords. Again, I apologize: How can my reply be distinguished as distinct and not be overlooked? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 21:59, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

In other news, I answer the duck at (and I'll leave the link's URL visible) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Duckecho#The_infamous_non-win_supreme_court_case --and this is the diff in case it gets messy: "QUACK!" --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 07:59, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

As an example of rancor, let me point out that on the point of whether my court cases were "notable," I still haven't seen an answer as to why the court simply didn't deny my rehearing petition immediately by a 7-0 vote. History records that they reviewed the petition (case SC03-2420) from before Jeb file dhis petition until after his petition (SC04-925) was denied. Also, they denied it 4-3. Governor Jeb Bush was denied 7-0. See e.g., http://jweb.flcourts.org/pls/docket/ds_docket_search%20 I may have lost, but I was more "notable" than the good Governor, and I discuss this point in other places. Suffice it to say that the vanity page guidelines allow a NONfamous person to post his own pages, a fact that is not only rejected by some but also with rancor and poking fun at me. Next time you've done notable work, you might not get mentioned, and when one is cheated, all feel pain, particularily the readers who are cheated. I also refuse to get caught up in WIKI edit wars. In conclusion, let's argue less and follow GHOST's suggestion more: Put on the main points of view -and their respective documentation; don't worry about what order it is, or the details: It would be bad for your health to stress out. Now, is there any reason not to so do? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Wagon on the point where he says that it should be mentioned that most "pro-Terri" doctors didn't examine Terri for very long -or at all. However, I am of the "inclusionist" camp, a trick I learned from Neutrality's web page. (I'm giving him creidt to make up for me criticizing one of his edits earlier.) Therefore, as an inclusionist, I would also include that the other doctors were prevented from examination by the courts -and let the reader decide if the courts were justified or not in this. Everybody happy with that suggestion? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 11:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordo, you're a confirmed ingnoramous now. That isn't what I said at all, so stop trying to turn my words into something else. The schindler's laundry list of "remote-video-diagnosis" is crap. It doesn't deserve to be in the intro. It deserves to be put in the article alongside other complete crap like Iyer's affidavit that the Schindlers submitted. They had a trial to diagnose Terri. They lost. Then they get Industrial Light and Magic to create a 5 minute video clip of Terri from 5 hours of raw footage and show that to a bunch of doctors in an attempt to completely RE-TRY the case. THEY LOST. And those MTV doctors was irrelevant enough that it did not warrant a new trial. Therefore they do not belong in the intro. See, that's your problem. you can't understand what it means to LOSE in court. You lost and keep spouting off about how it was a "near win". The Schindlers lost and kept trying to get a new trial with bogus evidence and bogus affidavits. fortunately the courts did their job and didn't allow Terri's condition to get tried, retried, and tried again. That's what courts are supposed to do. FuelWagon 15:25, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

You said: "As an example, the three-dozen doctors who watched video from (sic) teh Schindlers and signed affidavits saying Terri should get more testing doesn't deserve to be presented out of context. That sort of information needs to be provided in the context of 5 hours of video edited..." Notice that you said this information about the Schindler doctors needs to be "provided" somewhere, somehow... OK, now what did I say? "I have to agree with Wagon on the point where he says that it should be mentioned that most "pro-Terri" doctors didn't examine Terri for very long -or at all." In your direct quote, eliminating everything but subject and verb, you said "information needs to be provided," and my paraphrase was that I thought you said "it should be mentioned" regarding same doctors. "It" in my sentence refers to "information" in your sentence, and if info is "provided," as you say, we understand that it is "mentioned" somehow. So, I don't see where your "other worldly" interpretation has me misquoting or misrepresenting you. Furthermore, I was agreeing that the information should be mentioned, or otherwise provided, as you say. If you get this uptight about someone agreeing with you, then maybe, the next time, I should suggest that your idea is a dumb as a box of rocks -whether or not it is... just to ... never mind. I'm above that. Next, you say "It doesn't deserve to be in the intro. It deserves to be put in the article alongside other complete crap..." OK... So? What's the big deal? I don't recall saying that you asked these types of things be put in the intro. However, if I did (and that is uncertain), then show me when and where I said it; You know how to operate the diffs. Further, even IF I had misquoted you (very unlikely), nonetheless: (A) such misquote would've been accidental, and (B) equally important (for you at least), it would have incurred little or no harm to you. So, all in all, you are barking when there IS no cat around! --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 17:20, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordo, take a look at the title of this section: how about this for an opener? Unless you're talking about the intro to the article, you're conveniently changing the subject of this thread. The MTV diagnosis does not deserve to be in the intro. Their diagnosis is already in the article with sufficient context around it to explain the Industrial Light and Magic editing that went on. FuelWagon 20:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I guess I overlooked the title of the article, but it is enough that I think it is OK to let the other doctors' analyses remain in the body. By the way: The law is quite clear on what PVS is, and your opinion -or even some judge's opinion, does not change the law. When you differ, it is merely an opinion, but when a judge differs, it is "legislating from the bench:" , , & . This is unconstitutional, as a violation of the seperation of powers. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 21:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Now, with regards to the fact that you admit that there WAS five minutes of video of some sort, you imply that it is a hoax (Industrial Light & Magic), but this is irrelevant: You and I aren't the court; We're not here to evaluate the veracity of the vids (which, by the way, do not look doctored). (We are only here to present the cold, hard fact, and NOT opine on the veracity or lack of the video evidence.) Even assuming that the Schindlers found Terri reacting and exhibiting some reactions, that would satisfy the NON-PVS diagnosis, because according to the state law, only a person with the "The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind" (see e.g., persistent vegetative state could be PVS. As soon as Terri showed ANY level of cognitive action (even if it were only that of a chicken with its head cut off -or a Venus fly trap folding its leaves to catch a fly), she disqualified herself as being PVS. If you're so uptight about this definition, then lobby to get the Florida State law changed; don't take it out on me. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 17:20, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

"you imply that it is a hoax, but this is irrelevant: You and I aren't the court;" Well the court dismissed the affidavits, specifically because the basis for their diagnosis was 5 minutes of video and information from news stories. so that seems to be safe to call them a hoax. insert whatever legal term you wish that means the same thing as "useless diagnosis based on doctored video" that you find appropriate. FuelWagon 20:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

That term is heresay. Which has no place in the courts. And, as a minority opinion, has little or no place in Misplaced Pages. We could mention the existence of that the affidavits (possibly with a link), mention the judgement on them, and provide a link to the case. Otherwise, kill the whole reference. Which some will find unexceptable. So either state the facts, provide links and shut up, or don't say anything. Let the readers decide for themselves.--ghost 21:38, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The correct spelling is "hearsay," and is found in Florida State Law 90.802, which says that is IS allowed, Ghost, in some circumstances: , which states: "Except as provided by statute, hearsay evidence is inadmissible." The exceptions are given by s.90.803 hearsay exceptions; availability of declarant immaterial: Yes, hearsay is allowed, as shown by what Michael Schiavo said that he heard another witness say about her alleged wishes. While hearsay is not favored, it is allowed as weak evidence. The court didn't hear from the actual witness, Terri, but, instead, from a 2nd-hand witness, Mike Schiavo, her husband. As much as it is distasteful to me, it is technically legal to allow Mike Schiavo's hearsay testimony under the exceptions of 90.803 of Florida Law. However, since you think it's not admissible, you clearly see its weaknesses, many of which would probably make the hearsay of Mike and his two siblings fall short of the "clear and convincing" standard set forth to make the decisions in the court case for Terri Schiavo: , , & . Abstract Appeal even speaks on the subject: http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005_03_01_abstractappeal_archive.html where Matt says: "Comment/Question: "Was the issue ever raised on appeal that the judge had erroneously admitted the hearsay evidence?" Response: It was never raised at trial, nor on appeal, nor in any proceeding ever in the case of which I'm aware. I suspect that's because every lawyer involved knew it was a frivolous argument. (See this prior post for a detailed explanation why that's true.)" Matt is correct. Here is the link he provided to verify that: http://abstractappeal.com/archives/2005_03_01_abstractappeal_archive.html#111167384435979940 --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 21:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Remember when you said the burden was on me to prove notability with my case in court -cuz i made the assertion? Well, YOU're making the assertions that I misquoted you AND that "...those MTV doctors was irrelevant enough that it did not warrant a new trial." On the 1st accusation, you may be right, but you haven't proven it with a quote from me on a diff; On the 2nd point, you accuse the "MTV doctors," and use as your only proof the court system, which, we know, is fallible, even to the highest levels. While your proof is not totally baseless, it is irrelevant in this context: So WHAT if the Schindlers got a hyped up garbage from their "special effects Ind. Light & Magic" crew? So what? Even as YOU say, "It deserves to be put in the article alongside other complete crap like Iyer's affidavit that the Schindlers submitted." So, I don't disagree: The details can be put a little lower in the article and still be visible enough to make me happy, so give it a rest already. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 17:20, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

This section is about what goes into the intro of the article. I said the MTV diagnosis doesn't belong in the intro. You said you agree with me "that it should be mentioned" that the doctors didn't examine Terri for very long or at all. I said it shouldn't be mentioned at all. And since this discusion is about "how about this for an INTRO", you're either changing the subject of the thread or you're saying that I said it should be included in the intro. The MTV diagnosis is already in the article body, so I don't know why you would argue that it "should be mentioned" in the body of the article when it already is there. So, you either changed the subject of the thread from "intro" to "whole article", or you misrepresented my words to say it should be in the intro. FuelWagon 20:47, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I would like to make a point here: While I admit I don't know exactly how many affidavits supported Iyer's, I will assume (for the sake of simplicity/argument) you are correct on both of your numbers: E.g., Hundreds who knew something and four who spoke up. Now, the 1st point is this: The nurses who spoke up had no motive to lie: They wanted to keep their jobs. (If you can show the nurse spoke up after getting fired, then this supposition doesn't hold for that particular nurse.) 2nd, let me point out that the numbers comparison is misleading. Look, for example, at the case of "Kitty Genovese, a local bartender, was stalked and fatally attacked on her way home from work, and when she cried for help, at least thirty-eight (38) neighbors stood by and did nothing, and did not even call the police." I wrote about this issue at: , and we can verify my allegations at these search links: , , or. My point? "The attack, which took roughly thirty-five minutes, went unchallenged, except by one man, who yelled "Leave that girl alone" before turning in. The nation was shocked at this: Why wouldn't anyone step in and help her, or even lift a finger to call the police?! Genovese died hours after the stabbing because bystanders refused to summon help. The March 13, 1964 attack of Catherine Genovese, 28, who had been returning from her job as manager of a bar in Hollis, New York, made national headlines and shocked the nation. Psychologists, dubbing this the "bystander effect" or "Genovese effect," explained that, in large groups (such as many news media outlets considering covering my efforts), everyone thought that "everyone else" was going to help -and no one did anything." The bottom line is that, in large groups, humans -including nurses in large groups, oft times "look the other way," and the fact that four (4) spoke up is incredible, considering the odds of losing a job and being blacklisted. I believe the allegations. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 19:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

On another note, I want to credit you, Duckecho, for making me think. I believe it was you who suggested that the Florida Supremes considered a rehearing on my dismissal, and not on the merits, like they did with Gov. Jeb Bush. That seems accurate, I am sad to say: The Supremes let me down by not granting me review. However, let me point out that had Jeb Bush won his "rehearing" motion, he would not have necessarily won: re·hear·ing (rē-hîr'ĭng) n. Law."A new hearing of a case by the same court or other administrative tribunal in which it was originally heard." He or I, should we have won a rehearing motion, could have either won or lost the case on the merits. For example, I recently had a traffic ticket, and I was dismissed. I told the court that I had not been allowed to present my brief, and I moved for rehearing. The court granted. (In other words, I "won" my motion for a rehearing: The court said "yes," to me, but I still have not won the case, even after a year!) Upon attempts to file a brief, I cited case law that permitted me to summon the record to include in case I wanted to back up my allegations in my brief. Although I was right, and case law supported me, the court did NOT grant my petition to file a brief with the necessary documentation to make my case. As of this writing, it's been about a year with NO decision from the court. I haven't been dismissed on this, but I have not won. CONCLUSION? While Jeb got his case heard in oral arguments, his dismissal was for a "rehearing" of the case, and not a dismissal of the merits, which is the type of dismissal he encountered the first time. I.e., we both lost an attempt to rehear our initial "failures." I hope this clarifies. (PS: Many still hold me to be a hero who came closer than the good Governor! E.g., , who said on his radio show that I came very close to winning; He is a lawyer --and, well-known web author and radio show host, Jeff Rense, who at says "(Note - Mr. Watts lost 4-3 while Gov Jeb Bush lost 7-0 arguing before the same court.)" Also, while many entries in google at are from my own postings, not all are: Many laud me as a hero, right or wrong. How can the masses be wrong? --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 19:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

• #1: We were evil in the ancient past, e.g., "Old Testament" times: "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 6:5, KJV

• #2: We remained evil in more recent times-past, e.g. "New Testament" times: "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet." Luke 11:29, KJV Accord: Matthew 12:39, KJV, which adds adultery: "...An evil and adulterous generation..."

• #3: "Yes," I am alleging we are currently evil in answer to your question above.

• #4: We will remain very evil in the future: "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires." 2nd Peter 3:3. KJV Accord 2nd Timothy 3:1, KJV, which says that "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."

Oh, by the way, is that "old Bible" really reliable? Well, check out out ...THIS for starters:

• #5: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4, KJV. Well, since we see that both knowledge (technology) and travel are increased -exponentially, actually!, then #4, above, which is a continuation of #'s 1-5, should hold true. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 20:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

It might have been less distractive, but a good many people either (1) totally believe the Bible, or (2) at least feel the Bible is a good guideline, if not perfect. For those people (polls indicate that most of Americans have religious morals, and so on), which probably comprise the majority, I would be cheating them a chance to measure their beliefs by their "standards," such as their scriptures -not merely mine. I think it is probably best to limit discussion of this type, but since many people still believe in this old book, just as much as they believe in the laws, the judges, or whatever, it might be good. If I knew anything about the "Sharia (Arabic شريعة also Shari'a, Shariah or Syariah) is traditional Islamic law also known as Allah's Law," and there were Islamic editors, it would be helpful to them for me to quote relevent (and brief) sections of their Scriptures, to help their logic analyses. By the way, I don't intend to post any more scriptures, so you're on your own if you have a religious crisis; Additionally, I apologized about the use of color at the top of the sub-section --and explained why I (and many other board members) have used color in the past. Nonetheless, please leave my "scriptural" comments for at least a few days, for the benefit of the others, before considering deleting. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 22:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

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