Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:12, 19 July 2007

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages!

Hello, and Welcome to the Misplaced Pages, I'clast! Thanks for the contributions over on the Joseph Mercola article. Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Misplaced Pages experience:

• Take a look at the New contributors' help page, the Misplaced Pages Tutorial and the Manual of Style, and If you still need any help, you can always post your question at the Help Desk.
• When you have time, please peruse The five pillars of Misplaced Pages and Assume good faith, but please keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
• Always be mindful of striving for NPOV, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
• Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!

And some odds and ends: Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Verifiability, Village pump, and Wikiquette; also, you can sign your name on any page by typing four tildes: ~~~~. Best of luck, I'clast, and most importantly, have fun! Ombudsman 11:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

WIACHR

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Please don't vandalize the essays. Azmoc 17:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Apparently suggestions about corrective & informative edits of "owned" pages weren't welcome by the above editor on "his" agenda driven essay that he severely criticizes Misplaced Pages in general and other editors broadly. Looks like an AfD candidate. Above editor's recent improvements: Agenda proposal, arguing with several admins, interaction with others. Another editor's assessment:. --I'clast 19:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right. Azmoc is soleley a POV warrior who has yet to make a single useful contribution to the encyclopedia, which is the reason we are here, supposedly. User:Zoe| 19:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit about the retraction and 50K in Mercola and Barrett article

• l'clast. I agree with you on this issue. Another editor, Fyslee, was bent on including it in the Barrett article as well with the same references even if the editors had clearly agreed that in legal matters, a high level of verifiability was required. Fyslee is an editor who is a self-proclaimed quackbuster as well as an Assistant Listmaster for Dr. Barrett and very actively involved in editing articles related to the subject at hand as well as to subjects posted on QW. NATTO 04:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Independent review of QW

• I'clast. many thanks for the links to the independent review of QW. Very relevant and factual. Hopefully that will help focus on the real issues instead of having to deal with the specific worldview of some editors. :-) NATTO 09:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Since these links originated among several with AEL, User:Alan2012, also , you might thank/encourage him also. I suspect that he may be able to source more, similar links.--I'clast 19:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am glad to do so and have posted a message to that effect on his talk page :-) NATTO 11:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Stephen Barrett, Quackwatch, and NCAHF article

I have started three separate proposals to merge these three articles. The discussion for each amalgamation of the merge begins here. I would appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts for each proposal. Thanks. Levine2112 00:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, a lot of these have been merged eh? Like, even that Tim Bolen and Quackpotwatch articles were redirected to quackwatch. I guess it was decided that they didn't need articles? Tyciol 22:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

All three articles were retained due to legal structure.--I'clast 22:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

/NCAHF_lg_archive

QW

• I apologize if I removed any of your edits on that topic. I was trying to undo the edits of Travis who insist on putting a POV spin on the review section. You are more than welcome to re-insert your edits. NATTO 08:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• One more thing. Can you please put the name of the editor you are addressing your comments in the talk page to avoid any confusion. Thanks :-) NATTO 08:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• I restored the edit as best I could determine. Please note that on the anti-skeptic issue. It appears that Kauffman is member of his local skeptic group so I thought best to have a neutral title , after his status as a skeptic is not the point, it is the content and quality of his review that is. :-) NATTO 08:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

ok

Kauffman's article assessed as a critical view User talk:I'clast/As-criticism-of-QW

Fyslee has replied in my place to your message on my talk page

I'Clast please see below:

I think if you could come up with 1-2 references that show QW attacking or unfairly characterizing Weil (or Pauling) and perhaps a 2-5 word phrase, that would be a better format.--I'clast 12:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Please do, since that will provide an opportunity to provide Quackwatch's arguments on those points. Just open that door.....;-) But, on second thought, we're trying to write an encyclopedia, not conduct a discussion group. The article is about Quackwatch. If you really want to do that, do it on their articles. That way, if you really want to invite Barrett et al into those articles, just do what you are suggesting. You'll get the whole scientific community on your backs, point-by-(excruciatingly revealing)-point. So far all the criticism you have provided on the various articles has only resulted in enlargening them and strenghtening them, for which we are actually grateful. Call it unintended "collateral benefit" to the cause of exposing quackery and fringe science...;-) Without it we might have settled for short and factual articles. (Maybe this is a result of too much mercury exposure? Dangerous stuff! It keeps one from seeing "the big picture." To see it, just look at the articles before and after you got involved.) Have a nice day. -- Fyslee 13:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) Per the above, apparently bias, (in)accuracy, (im)balance are minor concerns once a certain POV is established. As for the "the whole scientific community", QW is already missing silent portions of the scientifc community, albeit many only express their opinion after retirement, if ever. The QW article before? the word hagiology comes to mind.--I'clast 13:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we wouldn't want that kind of thing. It's a controversial site, and it can't be any other way. Any website or anyone who has an opinion will risk getting involved in controversy, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's one of the ways we learn. Studying both sides of a controversy is stimulating and helps us to developed informed biases, rather than blind prejudices. (Read my introduction for more on that subject.) Controversies should be mentioned and linked, but the article isn't the place for editors to continue the discussion on their own account, or on the account of others. Doing that is unencyclopedic and would end up reproducing the website and portions of other websites, ending up with a long, rambling, and argumentative article. We need to stay on-topic. Mention the controversies, link to them and the subjects - including wikilinks - and then let readers do their own studying outside of the article itself. The article should just mention things. It plants the seeds, but it isn't our job to do the harvesting. (If you were a fundamentalist Christian - like I have been - you'd recognize that that is the work of the Holy Spirit....;-) -- Fyslee 14:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I have indicated to User:Fyslee on his talk page that this is inappropriate and that in addition his comments were of a threatening nature. I am not sure if this is acceptable in WP ? NATTO 15:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

My reply to NATTO's comments and accusation are found here. -- Fyslee 19:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"...Mention the controversies, link to them and the subjects - including wikilinks" this is similar to my thinking with the suggestion to Natto of 2-5 word phrases with 1-2 superscripted references to Natto earlier. I do like cleaner prose, but significant contention points need some kind of ' * '. In some cases I think that better examples could be given, e.g. I think Pauling is a poor example (i.e. QW bragging that it shot & skinned the rarest, largest of a protected species to both fed'l and state game agents after running the fleece up the flagpole would seem kind of ill advised, even in the most anti-govt woods). We've been working on this article hot & heavy for several weeks, things have been getting a little warm again this weekend. The QW article is in pretty good shape now, perhaps we should try to slow to small, occasional edits this week. Its still Sunday here, so let's think positive thoughts about our neighbors. Pace.--I'clast 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'Clast, Sound advice. Thank you and enjoy what is left of your week-end :-)NATTO 23:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Your comments on Talk:The National Council Against Health Fraud

Could I suggest that mundane editorial disagreements are most likely to resolve quickly and productively when editors observe the following:

• Remain polite per WP:Civility.
• Solicit feedback and ask questions.
• Keep the discussion focused. Concentrate on a small set of related matters and resolve them to the satisfaction of all parties.
• Focus on the subject rather than on the personalities of the editors.

Thanks! --Ronz 02:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages guidelines dictate that you assume good faith in dealing with other editors. Please stop being uncivil to your fellow editors, and assume that they are here to improve Misplaced Pages. Thank you. --Ronz 16:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! --Ronz 22:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I did ask nicely and hope that others will see the positive, collaborative merits in my suggestions.--I'clast 22:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To me, your writing "you have pushed your point of view very hard here, let it go" comes across as a povpush accusation. Further, you say so in the midst of another's blatant povpush effort. However, I appreciate your notable difference in tone and approach. --Ronz 23:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Kauffman

You make some interesting points, but either I have more knowledge of evidenced-based medicine than you or more hope in it. Kauffman appears completely unaware, but then he's a biochemist so why should he be? --Ronz 00:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

More knowledge of evidence based medicine for you? There is little evidence regarding that, but you certainly must have more hope or belief in certain commercially influenced data sources. Kauffman is at scientific odds with a number of old medical saws & based on a current view of science, not the 1950s. I would say Kauffman might be hyperaware. His work is an independent analysis & synthesis of recent literature.--I'clast 10:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(I'm just continuing what I found to be an interesting discussion which I felt would be inappropriate to continue on the article talk page. If you're not interested in continuing the conversation, just let me know. I won't be offeneded.)

I'm awaiting some reviews of his book by respectable sources. My point is that the valid issues Kauffman brings up should be solved by evidenced-based medicine. Of course, the political and financial issues are ultimately another matter altogether. Did I miss something in his book where he discusses evidenced-based medicine? --Ronz 21:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess so, he takes the "evidence" and reruns it critically. That's the point of the analyses and his book. He doesn't have fresh data, he is using what others refused to properly assess (or design or run or report), sometimes rather blatantly. This approaches the heart of concerns about pervasive, multilevel systemic biases in a trillion+ $ industry. I start counting with the expurgated textbooks when one walks into medical school on day one. This article reflects my own (limited) experience with Harrison's. On finding contra reviewers, his statins part alone will gather Kauffman innumerable "respectable" critics. $25b+/yr buys lots of (camp)followers.--I'clast 21:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to the reviews. I'll have to look through the book again too. --Ronz 23:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Talk:Ilena

I don't appreciate the harrassment by you against me on Ilena's talk page. If you have something to say about my behavior, do it here or on my talk page. --Ronz 01:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

My comments primarily were for the benefit of Ilena and for various readers, even if phrased for you ( since you would be looking for responses). I am not harrassing anyone. Au contre, in fact every time you have pointed the finger at me or someone else, I have thought you should monitor closely where the other 4 fingers are pointing; I have. If I treated you, as you have me, this past ~10 days, I think you would be *extremely & noisily unhappy* - I have avoided constantly objecting and quoting dubiously interpreted policy, rather discussing things as conversationally as possible. When I do quote policy, it is not for trival, inflated or imaginary reasons. I discuss & look for logical closure. Al Smith was known as the Happy Warrior. If we need to talk with the admins, I suspect that there will be an un-Al Smith.--I'clast 12:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I thought. Sorry that you don't like my interpretations of wiki guidelines and policies. --Ronz 15:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Please add tags rather than deleting statements

Please add {{citation needed}} or somesuch instead of deleting text. —Długosz

??? Pls add difs or to show where/what you want. If I deleted something, it means I thought that Jimbo's request to delete uncited material first or BLP was apprpriate.--I'clast 19:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

l'clast: Good call on "currently." I don't even know if I did that or not.. You are absolutely right - it is redundant. I have never liked the "is currently".... Jance 03:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Mannaspam

Hi I'clast - any ideas on dealing with the mannatech vandal / spammer? Check out my user page to see what I mean... True manna 04:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

NCAHF

WIll you add "agree" or "disagree" where others have, under Curtis' statement under "Protected" . He is saying the only complaint about his very long long edits was that it was copyrighted. Not the case. WE all need to show this clearly. ThanksJance 00:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Great...now just the paragraph above where you commented - "agree" or "disagree" to Curtis' statement. Now there are three "Disagree" - Ronz, someone I have not heard of, and me. Jance 00:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for the cleanup after IR's attack on my talk page. Now if we could get her to cleanup her sites, where many interpretations and ideas are prominent. It's irritating to find oneself lumped together with others one doesn't even know. Thanks again. -- Fyslee 02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand why you have revised my comments above, but NPOV only applies to articles, not to talk pages or user space. -- Fyslee 09:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. I am trying to figure out how to reduce tensions between both of you, although I am not idlely counting on world peace. I figure there are things that I need to get clear on from Ilena, you, and the off premises baggage.--I'clast 15:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have finally gotten around to reading the last 11 hours on the Barrett talk page and have come away with a very positive impression of your mediative spirit. Thanks for trying. Regards. Fyslee 23:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Off the air for a while

Due to a family tragedy, I will be off the air (and WP) for a while. Just letting you know on your talk as we have had the most discussions. Shot info 22:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'Clast, please send me an email

Hi! I am Alan, or "alan2012", a sometime contributor to Misplaced Pages -- e.g. the Barrett/Quackwatch page and (last summer) the Orthomolecular Med page.

Actually I am a naive, inexperienced contributor who is still trying to figure things out around here. Lots to learn and I am not sure how much detail I want to try to absorb. Just figured out tonight (duhhhh) that I should SIGN IN before I do an edit! Ha. I'll get better at it.

Anyway, would you mind dropping me a line by email -- aelewis AT provide DOT net

I would appreciate it. There are several folk I would like to be able to communicate with, but the Wiki thing still feels like something of a maze to me.

Sincerely,

Alan Lewis

PS: Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Alan2012

3+ RR Warning

If I broke any rules then I challenge you to report me immediately. GigiButterfly 22:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The rule does not apply to vandlism. GigiButterfly 23:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You misapply the term. Please (re-)read WP:VANDAL. You are well over 3RR.--I'clast 23:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I am itching to edit this again. Levine212 is right. This does constitute a OR violation. You asked me to write you before I edit. Well, here I am. GigiButterfly is confused about what constitutes vandalism, too. TheDoctorIsIn 23:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Doc, I don't mind careful article edits but try to avoid entanglement with GB.--I'clast 23:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I challenge you to report me right now. Tell me where to go and I will report me to the wikipolice. GigiButterfly 23:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

re: I'clast's recent edit

do not tamper with the quotes everyone is watching —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GigiButterfly (talk • contribs) 23:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

"Tampering" implies a lack of good faith editing. I advise you to read WP:AGF. My edits are not "tampering".--I'clast 23:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not remove quotes made by Kauffman in his own words. stop.

At Wikipeida, editors edit; also read Misplaced Pages:Ownership_of_articles. To quote, "...If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." Welcome to Misplaced Pages.--I'clast 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You are not editing the material. You are censoring it. You removed it.

No. Pls see this response. Also please sign your posts.--I'clast 00:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes pls see my answer

?? No answer, posted yet--I'clast 01:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

3RR

I did not break 3RR. My edits were in good faith and in consideration of the edit summaries. If you go through, you'll find that I only reverted to a previous version 3 times. Every other edit was a new attempt to reword the offending passage -- I never reverted to a previous version. Go ahead and report me if you think that's wrong, but I'll note that you are far from a clean conscience when it comes to these things, WP:POT. --ScienceApologist 00:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I should add that informing SA of WP:3RR could be construed as an insult (much like informing Jimmy Wales of WP:V), even though I expect that it was not intended as such. I assure you that SA has quite a good knowledge of the 3RR policy. --Philosophus 07:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

3+ RR Warning

To be specific:

1. Please refrain from repeatedly undoing other people's edits , as you are doing in Quackwatch. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. The three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, please discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. GigiButterfly 02:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice to see how much better you sign now ;->--I'clast 02:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad (Acting as Assistant to the Clerk) 00:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Other Barrett related removals at GLA

Please discuss your removals of Quackwatch refs at Gamma-Linolenic acid on its talk page. David.Throop 14:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Done, thank you for your participation and cooperation.--I'clast 11:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

BvR Evidence

Could you please rewrite "I did not realize Ronz too, as an IP, went that far back until Levine's note above" to clarify what you mean? It sounds like you are accusing me of being the ip in question when I believe you mean Fyslee. Please clarify. Thanks. --Ronz 16:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing it. I still think a clarification would be in order. In case you didnt notice, I brought up the issue in Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Barrett_v._Rosenthal/Evidence#Can_anyone_clarify_a_statement_by_I.27clast.3F because you havent been editing much lately. --Ronz 21:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It's deleted, I'm done. Least confusion might be to simply delete your request, it's not even a molehill.--I'clast 21:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That's perfectly understandable. Thanks again. --Ronz 21:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Threatening to out someone (no, practically doing it!)

Wow! That's quite the charge. Now you've really raised my curiosity about their real identity.

This is doubly incriminating, since I am being accused of threatening to "out" Alan2012, when I'm actually protecting him. (You see, there's no rule that requires me to out someone, even when that protection risks allowing continued policy violations.) We both know who he is.... I'd rather collaborate, and I hope he's redeemable.

Please enlighten me by my email. -- Fyslee (collaborate) 16:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not outing Alan2012's real id or profession, which Alan2012 clearly does not hide. Rather the problem is what might at first appear to be "friendly" advice reads as an implicit threat over Alan's profession as a severe, bannable COI in your statement. That is how it reads to me, additionally fueled by your various AN, etc filings and other edit actions (versus recent philosophical writings).

The oblique COI charge is not about you, but rather the problems Ilena had here, and will continue for the rest of us. It is a culmination of a series of my hints over the last month to an apparently real QW author/advisor/relative to back off the COI edits, not so subtle POV and provocations, if not totally refraining from such a trojan horse presence.--I'clast 16:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have woken up to a snow storm here in Denmark, and have checked your contributions and found this. This apparently involves more than I understand. Call me a naive idealist. So it looks like we both did the same thing, except that you are actually going to do it, while I really meant it as a friendly warning because I felt (as do you towards Shot info) that he was so qualified and knowledgeable a person that I was interested in seeing him succeed here, even when it would mean strengthening the alternative medicine side's POV. That shows my concern for NPOV, in spite of my own personal POV. I have a feeling we are very much like each other (except for your obviously greater talents and know how in some areas). While we have had our differences (in the past), I have come to appreciate your integrity, which I have previously doubted. (It can be hard to always AGF in a conflict situation. Fortunately I don't have the type of conspiracy theory mentality that prevents me from ever AGF. Sometimes one just has to give up on such persons.) Hmmm, I am indeed very curious where this is going. I have a feeling I'm in for a big shock! (If you would enable your email, you'd get the rest of this. Contact me.) -- Fyslee (collaborate) 11:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK, I should receive WP email.--I'clast 15:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not enabled. You need to go to the top of the page and do that in your "preferences". -- Fyslee (collaborate) 22:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

For your info per WP:AN

] Shot info 11:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

re:Talk:Stephen Barrett

I think it would be best to keep discussions about editor's identies and your investigation into them (, ) off talk pages per WP:TALK#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable. --Ronz

Right, I studiously avoided those issues, absolved certain parties on the identity issue (very, very important here), and constructively suggested a movement to his Talk page. He did imply that there is unfinished business and the cumulative effect of various editors' answers do not accurately represent me or my work on a serious issue. You might however consider discussing the issue with shot_info, he may be closer on several comments.--I'clast 03:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! After the Ilena/Fyslee Arb, I want to nip problems before they get out of hand. Thanks for the help. --Ronz 16:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, I really want to nip the type of problems we had when Ilena was around. Your personal attacks on editors is definitely not helping the situation. --Ronz 15:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, I think we should avoid the arguments of the sort "Editor A is a victim of Editor B's behavior (so we can ignore Editor A's own behavior)". Also, discussions of editors behavioral problems should be avoided on article Talk pages. --Ronz 16:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

We may disagree on a number of issues. A candid assessment of edit actions where I have supportable points is not a personal attack. Whether to use the User Talk page separately from the article Talk page can be difficult to separate out. I reject your WP:NPA accusation and insinuations that my editing is like Ilena's.--I'clast 00:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me make this very clear. I'm talking about your editing behavior, not Ilena's. I think we can all learn from the Ilena/Fyslee Arb, and I for one am working to prevent anything similar from occurring. You've used the "Editor A is a victim..." argument before. I'm letting you know that I'm calling you on it now. Editors are responsible for their own behavior. Encouraging them to act otherwise is detrimental to Misplaced Pages. --Ronz 00:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I particularly resent that I'clast has brought something that he thinks happened in the ArbCom case to a talk page where it's crystal clear that I had not interpreted any history. Not that interpreting history is wrong in an ArbCom case ; arbitrators do it all the time, Levine2112 had brought his interpretation, so I added mine, which was properly referenced with supporting diffs and acted on by several arbitrators. It's also an error to presume I did not know anything about that history; and that's just for starters. And what about WP:POT? Even if I did reinvent history (I don't believe I did) then at least I did so in the arbitration and not on the Barrett talk page, while I'clast comes crashing in there claiming I did so, all the time doing so himself, reinterpreting the entire discussion. I am quite incensed, I'clast. You're out of line in too many instances to list. Frankly, I have the feeling this was your intention. Your edits addressed to me are just so much bait. You can't get me to respond in anger. This is, however, the type of behavior that drives me away. It poisons the atmosphere. It has to stop. AvB ÷ talk 01:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

1. I am an eyewitness to contribution history where I am sure I had broader knowledge of the scattered edits in real time and AvB is a very latecoming participant that I never saw on a number of articles until the BvR RFAR. The most common points on articles that I was most concerned with were limited, so I left them alone to focus on other matters.

2. We all interpret history.

3. I was surprised that AvB was able to influence with secondary "witness" re-interpretations that struck me as special pleading that I felt the arbs should be able to balance differently. AvB has a right to his opinion, just I think that it is both a different pov as well as less familiar with the long & scattered contribution histories. AvB obviously made some kind of heroic effort to write and reference all that he did, I just do not consider it as a complete view in the areas that I am familliar.

4. I am sorry that we are having this conversation but it is best if you (all) analyze it for rational content. I am quite prepared to technically and rationally collaborate, but I will not easily be shouted down, flooded out or intimidated either. As for "crashing in" I am not a Johnny-come-lately to QW space. I in fact have recently stayed away because of some other problems that I saw at QW etc, but one can only hang back so long before some changes become too entrenched and difficult to correct.

If I seem out of line to you, you should know I am pretty straight forward and that simply means we are not yet well aligned on some crucial issues. Effective collaboration needs to start. As far as I can tell, the primary problem at hand is that a clear outline of Dr Barrett's credentials & background are one sentence short of being accurate and that Mr Bolen's view is not the only one concerned. Some editors seem to exclusively link the two. Since I view Bolen as a political creature, I don't think he & I have much in common. I am not thrilled when comments about "hate mail" etc are thrown out to disparage the precise credentials discussion.--I'clast 06:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a dispute about bringing something you have against another editor to a different article/project page, and generally writing things about me that may tarnish my reputation as a good Wikipedian, wind me up, and push me into inappropriate behavior.

You are entitled to your opinion on what happened there, just as I am entitled to my opinion which vastly differs from yours. I am sure you believe your view is right so you are vehemently defending it here in vain. I am not even trying to prove you wrong (although I think you are but it's impossible to prove or disprove). I am trying to express my anger at your behavior. That anger is reinforced now that you're once again putting similar "newly arrived" nonsense on the Barrett talk page smack in the middle of an RfC. How do you think this will come across on any newly arriving uninvolved RfC respondents? You're also going against an admin who is doing his utmost to keep editors calm and reasonable and out of each other's hair. You are, however, not addressing his criticism of your behavior.

Heroic effort? I just unofficially assisted the arbitrators, and they were free to peruse or ignore.

You are using what you see as a fact (my being an uninvolved editor) against me. Being uninvolved is a Good Thing in the Ilena/Fyslee type of dispute.

Shouted down, flooded out or intimidated? Why are you broadcasting your personal beliefs about me, thus far on the Barrett article only I hope? You are claiming things about other people that cannot be proved or disproved. It is simply your personal view of me and I think it is both baiting me and disrupting the discussion.

As to a link between Bolen and Barrett: No one is suggesting the two are alike in any way. The link quite obviously is that Bolen accused, Barrett responded. Barrett's response did not come out of thin air. And you can't unlink the two; the information has always been put forward in response to the Bolen criticism. Especially when you're talking about primary sources not discussed in independent reliable third-party sources. All the more so in a BLP. I'm not trying to convince you, just bringing you up to date on this viewpoint should you have missed it. AvB ÷ talk 09:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Please bear with me, we may be clearing up some miscommunications here, I am speaking frankly to try to help clear the air.

Great. I'll respond interspersed below:

defy an admin who does his utmost to keep editors calm and reasonable and out of each other's hair I did not realize I am defying an admin (no dif to it), are you saying you are an admin? I see on your User page, Vandal Proof and Counter-Vandalism Unit, are these admin only tools? (I previously replied to someone another time that appeared following up an AN presuming them an admin, turned out to be an "admin interested" User to mediate, so a clear admin advisory on the User page is helpful).

My mistake, I seemed to remember Ronz was one; his efforts here surely qualify as admin-grade but I stand corrected. As an aside, although in a number of areas my experience is nearing the point where I think I would acquire the mop if I tried, I have never felt the need to do so since it would be useless in the areas where I edit.

generally trying to wind me up and push me into inappropriate behavior Actually I've had lot of this feeling myself from a certain point in the BvR:RFAR from the combined effects of multiple new editors that I am encountering more challenges from, so let's work on that step back from the abyss together.

That shouldn't be too hard; I think in the arbitration I was following the lead of others to some extent (kind of "Well, if this is how these people communicate, I can do it too. Let it roll" - but I hoped it would be obvious that I started out from the diffs, not from opinion supported by selective diffs). It isn't really my style, it leads to tedious debates and I'm much stronger arguing facts and probabilities than opinion anyway.

Heroic effort? I just unofficially assisted... I literally have never seen that amount of verbiage churned out at WP, very impressive. In fact I feel you are implicitly criticizing the arbitrators here. No, more kicking myself for not diverting time to discuss several of your examples on articles and edits personally known to me that I signifcantly disagree and think I have greater depth of background on those specific articles. I viewed your RFAR participation as a previously unknown (to me) QW proponent & "secondary witness" rather than primary witness as being weaker, rather than as a neutral 3rd party (or admin?) with more standing for neutrality on analysis; in which case I severely erred in not spending more time addressing & adding difs on several of your analyses.

I started out pretty neutral but the more familiar I became with the situation the more I thought that Ilena should be put on probation and Fyslee and Levine sent off to mediation. But Ilena got herself an indef ban so this was only about Fyslee. His editing regarding QW had not been deemed worthy of a block and yet the ArbCom seemed headed for a topic ban. My editing experience with Fyslee, the looming ex de facto decision and my personal sense of justice were sufficient reason for me to dedicate some spare time to the matter. I would have appreciated a reasonable private conversation with you, but on the other hand I was not quite clueless.

since you mentioned that I was "crashing in" which carries some imputation of "new" as well as unexpected, I felt comment on relative "newly arrived" was a point that needed to be addressed.

I might have expected something in user space, but not in an article RfC. There it poisons the well.

We may both perceive the other louder and more aggressive than ourselves on issues that we think are clear enough but aren't.

You may well be right there.

...a kind of spin doctor or even a nutcase No, you come across as a outspoken, sincere supporter or proponent of QW that I can't get into technical focus with yet. You deleted my clearly (so I thought) sourced points on the limitations on some of Dr Barrett's articles). I am hoping that was an oversight since it was paragraphs down rather than factored back in the original paragraph.

I'll check it out; the sources should be clickable from the content itself and reliable enough. When in doubt, remove.

"--> checked: with assertions that were incomplete per se, miscontrued, overstated and/or obsolete about 1/2 to 1/4 of a century ago" is mainly a WP:SYN problem even if we assume the sources you gave are reliable. We need the same information in a single reliable source (reliable in this context also means undisputed by others). "with opinion pages that have been confused many times as a reliable technical fact source at Misplaced Pages." is not available in reliable sources so it's WP:OR. Under normal circumstances other editors would probably alert you to this, but there would be no problem leaving it in. In biographic material, however, we can't let it stay.

In fact you are a better debater than me any day, thanks but I seem to not be communicating my points very well here and you beat the daylights out of me on writing capacity, I feel like I am drowning when I say "flood".

The feeling that points have not come across is mutual. And you write some very compact prose that needs a lot of attention if one has to cover all the bases.

And you can't unlink the two I think that it is true that Bolen most effectively raised the specific "board certified" issue to parts of the public and perhaps cannot be unlinked (unringing a bell?) in many people's minds in that aspect. However I separate the (sub)topic from the specific datum because WP:N previously addressed the (sub)topic's notability. Over the last 10 years or so, Dr Barrett has been much more challenged on scientifc credibility, subject expertise (competencies) and credentials than ever before, that is why the Time article's mention was notable and relevant to the (sub)topic not being OR (in my eyes, some particular policy quotes that apply ).

Well, this is a point where we differ. It's a finer point of NPOV interpretation based on Jimbo's insights. I am not surprised it is proving difficult for me to convey it to others, especially to those who feel it upsets their own interpretation of the rules. This type of debate tends to stretch across many articles and may or may not congeal into some dedicated policy language in the future. But others came up with other policies that apply and I still think the "reliable secondary sources" issue has not been settled. Your reasoning may well apply in less sensitive articles though.

The sourcing issue I will take back to the SBarrett Talk page, we seem to have disagreement on source text research explictly encouraged in WP:RS, the notability/OR/sourcing and BLP. I do think that there are some policies that I am going to have to pick through the quotes and diffs on the WP:RS, V, NOT policies with respect to SB's professional background/credentials to clarify why I think the one sentence applies and it will take time. Redone.

I'm always interested in the well-reasoned application of policy. But in the end it's something to be decided by the community I think (unless of course Barrett does write or phone the Foundation). AvB ÷ talk 14:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) OK, after calming myself down I just went through the recent discussions and RfC material, traced the to-and-fro of personal comments and removed them all as far as I could find. Take a look and let me know if this helps to start with a clean slate. Or revert at will. AvB ÷ talk 10:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, I am quite willing to start over with a clean slate, I think we have identified a number of points of (mis)understanding and I will try hard to get into focus.--I'clast 11:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

In natural speech, I am said to have a dry humor with lots of irony and sarcasm. The faster I have to write, the more it shows, so hopefully that will help interpret my writing and intent in a friendly way.--I'clast 12:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Good. For me it's simple, I tend to respond to the behavior of others and am known to mirror it occasionally, sometimes intentionally. In other words, when people are implying things, I tend to start writing between the lines, sarcasm breeds sarcasm, etc. I generally edit such stuff out before posting but lack of time can be a factor and sometimes I think it just isn't worth it to go for full political correctness. In natural speech I need to be careful not to be too outspoken unless I'm with friends. AvB ÷ talk 14:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.

Much appreciated. Fyslee/talk 06:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem.--I'clast 06:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

More Talk:Stephen Barrett

I've refactored your remarks . I put the tag on the article for a reason. It's Levine2112 (and others) who are ignoring it. You're playing your diversion tactics again, the ones that allowed Ilena to get away with edit warring for months, accusing others of problems that are apparent and need to be dealt with. Please stop stop hindering others' efforts to address the real issues at hand. --Ronz 15:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you insist speaking for multiple editors (not a good idea from my perspective), make it clear who. --Ronz 15:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Your Mediation Cabal case

Good afternoon (GMT time); I have accepted a Mediation Cabal case - requested by Levine2112 - to which you are listed as a party. Mediation has commenced at the case talkpage, where you are invited to participate. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me via email, IRC or my talk page; I will try to answer all your questions as fully as possible in so far as it does not compromise my neutrality. Kind regards, anthony 15:17, Sunday December 29 2024 (UTC)

Even more Talk:Stephen Barrett

Don't you think you're exaggerating at least a bit here ? -- Ronz  01:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Please review

It seems you have overwritten RalphLender's responses on the Barrett talk page. AvB ÷ talk 17:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You have deleted my comments on the Barret Talk page. Why did that happen? Please restore my comments. RalphLender 19:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

My sincere apologies Ralph, thanks to Avb for the minder. It appears to be an edit conflict between when I scooped up the Q&A survey into Wordpad to edit full screen, added my interspersed comments and replaced them into the WP edit text. Ralph, thank you for taking time to fix it before I got back.--I'clast 01:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

RfM Stephen Barrett

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Thanks

Thanks for taking the time to comment on my incident report and offering some good advice. Much appreciated. ॐ Metta Bubble 02:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Please consider

Please consider refactoring your comments: . Let's all WP:KEEPCOOL rather than exasperating an already bad situation. Thanks. --Ronz 22:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

If I may suggest

Please consider refactoring your comments:

"The choice of words and phrases like "innuendo", "sources...begging you please stop" and "...chiropractors-ear candlers-whatever" in your reply don't build communication and trust." --Ronz 21:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This is just getting absurd: "Previously the usual editors opposed to "not BC" wrote vigorously, but absent a real policy basis." I can name some editors that have done that, but curiously, none of them have taken the side you suggest. Please stop. --Ronz 15:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

"Can you say the same?" Really, stop this type of questioning, please! --Ronz 16:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Repeat of important questions you seem to have missed

(Moved here from Talk:Stephen Barrett.)

Regarding your accusations made here two days ago: Please provide evidence (i.e. diffs) of the forum shopping or similar behavior you're alleging here. Please provide evidence (i.e. diffs) where I (or Fyslee) "insistently include Spiked!". Although I say "please," answering these questions is not optional, I'clast. Thanks in advance. Avb 10:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)