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Soviet invasion of Poland (1939)

I just realized that this A-class article is quite up to our FA-class standards. So, without further due - please take a look and comment.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Prima facie, Piotrus, I have a few comments and suggestions (which, you will note, I do not use as a means to validate an "oppose" vote). One thing I noticed is that the lead section is immense, and gets lost in the details without clarifying, in a clear succession, the essentials (who, what, where). I have made small edits to clarify some of that, but didn't want to risk harming the flow. You can address this yourself by simply condensing the paragraph about the Molotov Pact to a sentence or two (what it was and what it meant for the invasion; perhaps + Poland argued not to have existed any longer), and expanding on it in the "Prelude" section. There also appears to be some overlinking going on, and it seems that terms used tend not to be linked the first time they appear in the text, but in some unusual manner (the second, third, fourth times...), which gives the impression that the text is uncopyedited. The pictures could do with some rearrangement (I have to say it matters less that a pic and its corresponding text do not fall next to each other in the text, than that they cram the text from each side and turn it into a narrow column).

Overall: congrats for what looks to be like a well-referenced and valuable article. Dahn 20:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Added: also, I don't think that giving links to pages found on the google book search is appropriate or desirable. Dahn 21:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I will have a go at copyediting the lead tonight. But I must say that I don't agree that it is immemse, because a good lead tends to have three or four paragraphs and act as a summary of the article, which this does. All the same, I think some details of the pact and of the later history of Belarus and Ukraine can be removed without too much loss. I've carried these edits out.qp10qp 11:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I will let Qp10gp, a native speaker, take care of copyeditng. As for the lead, I think that the size is ok and fits WP:LEAD, but if you or others can cut something out, go right ahead. Also, feel free to rearrange the pics if you think some are unnecessary or are in the wrong section, they look fine on my screen. PS. As for Google Print links, I find them very useful - could you elaborate on your criticism of them?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Both Image:German Soviet.jpg and Image:Davidlowrendezvous.png are fair use tagged images lacking fair use rationales for use in this article. Further, since neither image is discussed inline in the article, the justification rationale would seem to be flimsy, as there's nothing for the images to contribute to within the text of the article. The article works fine without the images. --Durin 21:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As a side note: isn't Image:German Soviet.jpg PD in Germany at least? I honestly don't know. Dahn 21:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Added rationales.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Image:Wrzesien.gif should be in english. I think the prelude section could warm the reader up a little with some sort of intro sentence. Would History of Poland be a good "main article" link for the prelude section? I don't quite like the sectioning. I personally wasn't interested in the Prelude, however the current structure does not allow me to read only what happened during the actual invasion. The actual invasion part is in the prelude and then the allied reactions come before the main part describing the invasion. Overall the sections don't stand on their own.-Ravedave 03:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It would be nice if somebody could translate it, although as a map its not really in need of that much translation. I am not sure what would be a good main article, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact sounds like the best idea, I think. As for the sections, I am afraid I don't understand what you mean: per Qp10gp, the invasion is described in the a section of its own, prelude ends with the sentence about start of the invasion...?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The invasion is only mentioned in the last sentence of the "Prelude" section: "On 17 September 1939, the Red Army crossed the border into Poland." That the article then moves to the allied reaction is an attempt to represent the significance of what had happened: the moment the Soviets crossed the Rubicon, as it were, reactions from all around Europe meant that the die was cast and the World War was underway. To treat these events in this order is good narrative form, in my opinion: and history books often folow this order too. But the other thing to say is that maybe the title of this article raises false expectations in the reader, because really this was a very small military encounter, over and done with in a short time and involving relatively little fighting. "The Soviet Invasion of Poland" is therefore not so much an article about a military campaign but one about a whole set of political and diplomatic complexities which it both resulted from and set in motion. Personally I find these complexities fascinating, and I feel that the article sets them out with hard-won cogency; but I can understand the view that the build up, diplomatic repercussions, and consequences of the invasion fill the bulk of the article rather than the fighting itself, such as it was.qp10qp 12:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have placed "Allied reaction" after the battle details now; and this may be helpful to those who wish to get to the battle details sooner. I've made one or two little adjustments to smoothe this rearrangement.qp10qp 15:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support another well done article from WP:MILHIST.Sumoeagle179 10:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. This article is not meeting FA standards just yet.
  • The layout is somewhat messy, with several stubby sections ("Allied reaction" and "censorship" come to mind).
  • Bullet lists at the end are ugly. I'm sure those links can be embroidered in the text far smoother and in a much better place (e.g. in the text itself).
  • Copyedit problems:
    • "The over-450,000-1,000,000-strong" - is this English?
    • "On the Polish side, 6,000–7,000 soldiers died fighting the Red Army, and 230,000–450,000 were taken prisoner—230,000 immediately after the campaign and 70,000 more when the Soviets annexed the Baltic States and assumed custody of Polish troops interned there." - stop with all those dashes please...
    • etc..
  • References must have a space after and no before the text etc...
  • Not all dates are wikified as they should be.
  • Numerous POV issues were raised on the talk page and were, as far as I can judge, never corrected. By contrast, some other important issues - like ua/be ethnical reunification, are only skirted. In short, there is still much work to do, both content and format-wise. -- Grafikm 15:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • Layout updated - no stubby sections. Bullet lists at the end (references, elinks) are standard, but if you show me an example of an article where it is done better, I will see about updating it Copyedit - I am leaving it to native speaker as mentioned above, same with dashes. I scanned the article and couldn't find any spaces messing reference layout, by all means, if you find any, do fix them (or at list point out here which ones are we talking about). Same with dates. As for POV issues, all discussions at talk have been settled, if you find any new POV issues that or any that were not resolved to your satisfaction, please be more specific. Please note that GA and A reviews were asked to take POV into account and both concluded POV issues are not apparent to this article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

In reply to Grafikm: Piotrus has almagamated what you called stubby sections with "Aftermath", and I have added some material to the allied-reaction information, in case you felt that it was not sufficient. But to explain my approach, the information was carefully written to be an encyclopedic summary of the allied reaction; it can be extended considerably, of course, if you wish; but for me it is a virtue if an encyclopedia article can encapsulate a complex matter in clear brief, well-referenced prose, which was the intention on the matter of the allied reaction.

Concerning bullet point lists, I have deleted the battles because they are linked in the text, changed the heading to "See also", and cut the "Further reading" section, since there are now so many books in the notes and references for the reader to turn to for further information.

The figures, dashes, etc. are really difficult to express in clear English, but I'll have a go. I don't believe there are many copy-edit issues of that type in the article, though. It is largely written in lucid, fluent prose, I believe.

Numerous POV issues were raised on the talk page and were, as far as I can judge, never corrected. By contrast, some other important issues - like ua/be ethnical reunification, are only skirted.

I rather strongly disagree with this, Grafikm. I spent very many hours of my life (I have 158 edits to this article) picking off the POV material phrase by phrase and re-referencing to sources written in English, mostly by writers with no Polish bias. In the process, I added material about the Belarus and Ukrainian reunification. Look again, and you will see that the matter is specifically dealt with in two paragraphs and a block quotation in the "Aftermath section". In my opinion, to add any more would unbalance the article, since however one may be opposed to the Polish point of view, it would become uncomfortable if the article began to emphasize Belarusian and Ukrainian liberation and reunification issues ahead of the Polish ones, which included the fighting of the actual war and the mass murder and deportation of vast numbers of Polish people. My edits were careful, however, to make clear the Soviet position that concern for and repatriation of Belarusians and Ukrainians was one of their chief aims, and to include the lower estimates for murders and deportations provided from Russian sources. If I had edited the article from a Polish point of view, I would not have done that nor provided the Soviet POV and Ukrainian and Belarusian material which balances the article.

Finally, I would say that my intention in addressing the POV issues raised on the talk page was not to satisfy either a Polish or a Soviet point of view but to give weight to issues in the article in the same proportion that weight is given to them in the history books about this military campaign. When you say that there is still much more to do, I would ask what? I have read a good deal of material about this campaign, and I believe this article summarises it well. However, if you can give some suggestions as to what might be added I will certainly do so. I've asked the same of other critics of the page, and where they have made suggestions, I have acted on them; but too often, I have not been given anything to go on. Any objection here needs to be specific and actionable.qp10qp 16:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly opposed. Being Belarusian of Western Belarus origin, I could note that the whole article is written exclusively from the Polish POV and all other POV's are edited out from the article by group of Polish users headed by Piotrus.

• The article lacks the following important moments:

• 1. The territory of Poland at which Soviet troops entered was previously illegaly occupied by Poland. All Belarusians regarded Soviet troops as liberators from Polish Pilsudsky dictatorship which established regime of sanation on occupied Western Belarus and established concentration camps like Detention Camp Bereza Kartuska. I don't even mention Polish pogroms during which Poles were exterminating all non-Poles. You may look at this photo at which are people hanged by Poles in Belarus http://oldgazette.ru/lib/pogrom/0021.html. Also there are numerous other photos with Polish atrocities.

• 1. The article lacks any mentioning of Belarusian partisan movement for the liberation of Western Belarus. It also lacks mentioning of Belarusian resistance movement against Polish occupation. A lot of Belarusians were arrested, executed by Polish occupation authorities. It is completly outrageous that Piotrus is going to rate this article, because later he would use the argument like "This is A-rate article, and you are fresh noob" argument in order to sort out the attempts to add other POV's which should be covered in the article. Vlad fedorov 16:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There was a brief history of the region in the article once, and I could put something like that in again, if you feel the article concentrates too much on the actual campaign. Most of the things you mention do not seem to me about the invasion: what happened was that a Soviet army invaded Poland (you may call it a liberation, and that point of view is represented in the article: but I must tell you that many history books call it an invasion and so Misplaced Pages policy is followed on that score) and as a result three things happened: many Poles were killed in battle or prisons or deported; most western Belarusians and Ukrainians were incorporated into new soviet rpublics, and World War two was truly set in motion. All these things are covered in the article, and it is made clear that the Soviets and Ukrainians and Belarusians regarded the campaign as a liberation; there are also cartoons and photos to that effect.

You are arguing for an expansion of the article into issues of the Polish occupations of parts of Belarus and Ukraine. These can be mentioned in a little pre-history, and I will look at doing that, but any more will unbalance the article, which is about this campaign. The article is not written from an exclusively Polish point of view: did you not notice that a large number of non-Polish sources are used? And that Soviet POV is stated rather than doubted. The article's position is set out in the lead: "The Soviet military operation, which the Politburo called "the liberation campaign", led to the incorporation of western Ukrainians and western Belarusians into the new expanded Soviet Ukrainian and Byelorussian republics". I can assure you that Polish bias could not have produced that sentence.qp10qp 17:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

" it is made clear that the Soviets and Ukrainians and Belarusians regarded the campaign as a liberation". Actually, this is incorrect :> The article notes that it was Soviet propaganda which attempted to portray it as such (albeit I don't think this is stressed strongly enough; at the very least the sentence you quote above ("which the Politburo called "the liberation campaign"") should be copied into the article, as currently it violates the principle that lead should summarize the article, but should not introduce information not repeated in the article (cursory search for Politbiuro shows it is mentione donly in lead...)), and a paragraph in the aftermath notes that in fact Ukrainian and Belarusian support was mixed at best.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Vlad Fedorov. Please, do not be silly. The photo you have linked was taken in Mozyr (as the description says), and dear sir, Mozyr was not part of Poland in the interbellum.

As for Belarusian partisan movement in the interbellum - never heard of it. I know about general Bulak-Balachowicz (hope got the name right), but never heard about Belarussian guerilla in Poland. Never heard of executions of Belarussians in the interbellum either. Why do you say the territory was illegally occupied by Poland? Ever heard of Traty of Riga? Bereza Kartuska was not for Belarussians only, but mostly for Polish political prisoners and it was not a concentration camp for God's sake. Surely, Siberian camps were much more convenient for Belarussian patriots I pressume. Tymek 17:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz. Indeed, he represented the pro-Polish Belarusian faction allied with Poland during Polish-Soviet war, IIRC his forces numbered about 5,000. I don't think Soviet Union had any pro-independent Belarus forces in its ranks... but this is a bit OT, since we are discussing events that took place almost 20 years later.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Vlad, please be more civil and assume more good faith - your claims that I assessed this article as 'A' class myself is obviously false (it was assessed by WP:MILHIST team), and your speculation about how I'd deny new editors access to the article is quite offensive and obviously false to anybody who checks its talk page.

As for your (unsourced...) POV content comments: 1) as the (sourced) article makes clear, only some, not all, Belarusians supported the Soviets 2) I agree it would indeed by worthwile to mention poor relations between minorities and Polish government in the article. Perhaps some relevant fragments can be moved from Tadeusz Hołówko or similar articles, although in most cases they concentrate on the more numerous and organized Ukrainian faction 3) Sanacja, Piłsudski, Beraza, pogroms - all bear little relevance to the article; Piłsudski was actually known to be a stabilizing influence and was trying to improve the relations with the minorities 4) Belarusian resistance against Poland - per my comment no.2 I am not aware of any notable organization like Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists on Belarusian side, I certainly never heard anything about a 'resistance movement' - OUN was at best what we today would call a 'terrorist/extremist pro-indepence faction' receiving support only from a small minority, and again, any Belarusian equivelent would be even less fitting for 'resistance organization'. I checked Davies, who in his God's Playground has a paragraph on Belarusian minority: he mentions increasing repressions, but no executions, nor any armed resistance. He does note, however, that Belarusian minority had relatively small 'political awarness', and recommends further reading of Nicholas P. Vakar Belarussia: The Making of a Nation, unfortunatly I don't have access to that publication ATM but if you could recommend any English or Polish readings on Belarusian minority in interwar Poland, I'd be happy to take a look at it. PS. No Soviet sources, please.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Extremely one-sided article, beggining from the POV title to the actual coverage of events. --Kuban Cossack 17:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

In what way? Please give me something to work on.qp10qp 17:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Per Qp10gp, please be more specific. If you look at the top of the page, you'll note that Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, the FA Director may ignore it. . -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. I know it's useless to vote in the face of a crowd of traditional Piotrus-supporters, but I would like to repeat once again that {{POV-title}} is mandatory for this article. Either we term this campaign, the Polish-Soviet War, the so-called Polish-Muscovite War (1605–1618) as "invasions" or we avoid loaded language in the titles of all three articles. It is absolutely inacceptable to push one's POV by hook or by crook. The two instances of pure Polish aggression against Russia (or Muscovy, as Piotrus prefers to put it) are misrepresented in Misplaced Pages as border conflicts, while the act of reunification of Eastern Ukraine with Western Ukraine, of Eastern Belarus with Western Belarus is deemed an "invasion".
• I know the term is supposed to be referenced, but so were the titles of each Polish invasion of Russia, which did not prevent Piotrus and his party from engineering the retention of their present titles. Put briefly, each Russian-Polish conflict instigated by Poland is cast in Misplaced Pages as a "war" or "uprising", each conflict instigated by Russia/USSR is trumpeted as an "invasion". The same bias runs throughout the article: where can we learn about Poland's overtures with Hitler? about the efforts of Polish diplomacy to prevent the alliance of Great Britain, France, and Soviet Union against Germany? I see the relevant data is carefully suppressed in order to represent Poland as an eternal selfless victim, as is normally done in the articles authored by Piotrus. --Ghirla 19:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Other then criticism of article's authors, and unsourced claims in any case irrelevant to the subject of the article, do you have any actionable objections? PS. I really would like to learn about those attempts to prevent the alliance, and the "overtunes" - please suggest appropriate readings (no Soviet sources, please). Oh, and I do like the "Poland's overtures with Hitler" - even if fictional, it does make a nice contrast to the "Soviet-Nazi Symphony, you know :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)