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Anti-Iranian sentiment

• Articles for deletion/Anti-Persianism by Arabs
• Articles for deletion/Anti-Iranianism
• Articles for deletion/Anti-Iranian sentiment (3rd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Anti-Iranian sentiment (4th nomination)

Anti-Iranian sentiment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Much like similar "anti-X" articles , this article is fundamentally original research. To take a number of individual cases where someone said something was "anti-Iranian" does not justify presenting these together as a unified phenomenon. Without substantial RS scholarly works presenting "anti-Iranianism" as a unified phenomenon (such as antisemitism), we are simply creating this original narrative, and in doing so we commit OR. The Behnam 05:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and precedent of the deletion of other "anti-x sentiment" articles. Most of them are just original reseatch, POV magnets. --Folantin 09:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep It is simuilar to Anti-Semitism, anti Iranianism is a WP:Notable subject that affects many Iranians in the diaspora on a persoanl level. Taprobanus 14:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep The article has many sources, is highly notable, and Misplaced Pages already has other anti-x articles, such as Anti-Semitism as mentioned above.Hajji Piruz 14:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • For both of you, this really isn't similar to antisemitism because, unlike antisemitism, there is no substantial body of scholarly work presenting "anti-Iranian sentiment" as a unified phenomenon. This notion is created here on Misplaced Pages but does not exist as such in RS. Also, the number of sources used for individual facts is irrelevant, though it would be terrible to cite in support for this article considering the number of "references" that don't actually make a claim of "anti-Iranian sentiment." The Behnam 17:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep The article appears well sourced. I counted at least 60 references. Dfitzgerald 16:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It may "appear" that way based on a count of references. However the sources often do not ascribe "anti-Iranian sentiment" to the event; rather, an editor takes an event that he considers "anti-Iranian" and posts it into this article. That, of course, is classic OR. But I stress that this deletion is NOT about the individual facts in the article but rather about tying together even the sourced uses of "anti-Iranian" to portray a unified phenomenon. As there is no substantial body of scholarly work presenting such a narrative we cannot synthesize it ourselves on Misplaced Pages. Maybe we can recreate such an article when Iranians get their own Anti-Defamation League and it is taken seriously. But right now we are looking at original research. The Behnam 17:00, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
    • There are several Iranian versions of Anti-Defamation League. AlexanderPar 18:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
      • To be like the Anti-Defamation League they have to be both widely noted and also have to be an anti-defamation league. I'm not sure which organization from that page you were specifying but looking through them turns up mostly non-notable lobbies. Perhaps the most direct one, with "anti discrimination" in the title, doesn't seem to exist anymore and is linked to through the web archive. This minor issue, however, is besides the point (being a "maybe" side as it was). The Behnam 19:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
        • NIAC - National Iranian American Council is a notable organization, and they deal with many issues such as discrimination. AlexanderPar 19:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
          • While I didn't want to continue this side discussion, I can't help but note that the NIAC is not at all equivalent to the ADL, in both purpose and notability. The Behnam 19:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It is even more remarkable that such an "at a glance" analysis of the article can be used to support a "strong" keep. The Behnam 17:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. OR doesn't fly if it's someone elses research. —Xezbeth 16:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Somehow this suggests that you have neither taken a close look at this article and its previous nominations nor read over the similar nominations I outlined above. Even the rare cases where the source indeed says that something was "anti-Iranian" (mostly in the 300 (film) section near the end), we cannot justify synthesizing these disparate uses into the original narrative as is done in this article. The Behnam 17:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

  Oh but I have read the article. Some bits may well need removing/cleaning up but that doesn't warrant killing the whole thing. —Xezbeth 17:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

  • You don't appear to understand that the OR issue here is NOT about individual facts used in the article, despite the fact that those aren't exactly "quality." The Behnam 17:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, your uncivil "DOSPAGWYA" link doesn't even apply here because I provided explanation in addition to links to similar cases. It may better apply for no-substance claims that use such a shortcut, such as "OR doesn't fly it it's someone elses research," which doesn't actually put anything against the nomination's core argument. It would apply for me if I had given only the reason "This article violates WP:NOR." The Behnam 17:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable topic, there are many documented cases of Iranians who have become victims of discrimination, intolerance, and harassment because of their ethnic/national origins. This is one of the better articles in Category:Anti-national sentiment, the article may have problems, and we can always improve the content of article rather than delete it. AlexanderPar 18:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Several published scholarly works presenting "anti-Iranian sentiment" or "anti-Iranianism" as a notoble and unified phenomenon:

1. The Iranian community in the United States and the maintenance of Persian identity - by Y Modaressi: "For instance, the anti-Iranian feelings during the hostage crisis in America

practically and psychologi- cally placed the Iranian immigrants in a very dicult situation"

2. Neo-Tribalism in Iraq: Saddam Hussein's Tribal Policies - by A Baram: "The Iraqi regime made every effort to exploit this Arab identity and encourage anti- Iranian feelings"

3. Timeliness and Appropriateness in Personal Experience Narrating - by RA Georges: "Anti-Iranian sentiment, which had been widespread earlier when Americans were held captive in Tehran, resurfaced during the TWA hijacking episode"

4. The War on Terror, Feminist Orientalism and Orientalist Feminism - by R Bahramitash: "True accounts, such as the book and movie Not without My Daughter, helped to incite racist, anti-Muslim and anti-Iranian feelings across Europe and North America"

5. Cultural Trauma and Ethnic Identity Formation Among Iranian Immigrants in the United States - by M Mobasher: "On the other hand, the anti-Iranian atti- tudes of most Americans and the anti-Iranian media propaganda that began during the hostage crisis"

6. Identity Politics and Iranian Exiles - by H Naficy: "the fact of their own exile, and the periodic waves of anti-Iranian sentiments facing them in West"

7. Iran and the Middle East: Foreign Policy and Domestic Change - by F Halliday: "considerable sympathy in the Peninsula for the Taliban and for Osama bin Laden, all of which feeds into not only anti- American but also anti-Iranian feeling"

There are hundreds of such sources, both prints and manuscripts. - AlexanderPar 19:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • This same sort of thing showed up during the similar "anti-X" deletion debates and doesn't justify the existence of such articles. Yes, we know that "anti-Iranian sentiments" exist since some people do not like Iranians. But it is the presentation of a unified phenomenon that is original research as this narrative is not made by RS scholarly sources. The cases you present here are simply an example of how disparate uses of the term can be presented in faulty defense of the original narrative created by Wikipedians. The Behnam 19:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
    • You're acknowledging that "anti-Iranian sentiments" exists, that makes this a notable topic.AlexanderPar 19:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Haha, no not at all. lol, it is OR to take a bunch of disparate uses of "anti-Iranian" to present a unified topic. As the nominator from one of the similar nominations said, "Only thing that counts is reliable sources systematically discussing the existence of "Anti-Macedonian sentiments" as a consistent, unified pattern" - Now replace "Anti-Macedonian sentiments" with "Anti-Iranian sentiment." And like those other articles, this topic doesn't have sources discussing such a unified pattern. The Behnam 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep I think we discussed enough about this article before. Please read the former AfDs again.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 19:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • That's quite irrelevant to the reason for the nomination. A previous "keep" AFD really isn't a reason for keeping now, but if it means anything the previous closed "no consensus" with the process muddled by ethnic-sensitive canvassing. The Behnam 19:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete: The page seems to be just a collection of OR and POV, aimed at fueling battles along ethnic and national lines. Just the first line, quoting Kaveh Farrokh, a prominent Turkophobe, clarifies the objective. Atabek 20:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

What about Anti-Turkism, an article which you were involved in heavily?Hajji Piruz 00:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Check the history of it , clearly I wasn't involved heavily in it, so WP:AGF, please. Thanks. Atabek 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, keep it, let the topic name defame itself by expected OR and POV. Atabek 19:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that keeping it crappy to "defame" it is the best thing for the encyclopedia. The Behnam 21:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keep. The claim that this article is original research because the sources "are not notable", is not an acceptable reason to delete the article, according to WP:JNN. This user has also just nominated Iranian women and List of Iranian wonmen for deletion in the past week. Curious, this trend of AFDs.--Zereshk 22:20, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
  • You apparently don't understand the argument for deletion. As it seems quaint that I have to explain it in yet another way, please read through it again and come back if you have any questions. Thanks. The Behnam 22:23, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Calm down, The Behnam. I actually did read the argument. That's why I used your own words.--Zereshk 22:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

No you did not! The phrase "are not notable" is not found on this page as any argument of mine! How interesting - this is the second time you have misquoted me (the prior is here ), so I am not sure that is very smart of me to assume that this is just an accident. "Calm down" - Haha, are you saying this to insinuate that I was not calm, even though nothing about my response was not calm? Also quaint. Anyway, even if we assume that I in some way said a statement to that effect, must I now assume that you are quote mining (or rather, "misquote mining" :-) ) to try to build a strawman? I bring this up because the central argument for deletion is 'not the "notability of the sources" but rather the lack of reliable sources that present "anti-Iranian sentiment" as a unified phenomenon. BTW, your mention of the other AFDs constitutes an attempt to poison the well' to make people question the "faith" of my nomination, and apparently this has worked on Mandsford. This is unfortunate for the AFD, and of course it is disappointing that you again conduct yourself poorly with me (after the recent canvassing for Iranian women and nonconstructive thread on my talk page). The Behnam 02:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You did in fact object using "notability" of sources as the main base of your argument. e.g.1 followed by . Im sorry, but you cant use notability as your reason. It doesnt matter if NIAC is not as big as ADL. Your argument is still flawed because WP:JNN doesnt allow it.--Zereshk 05:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand again. That side conversation is not a critical part of the nomination and was not presented as such. It derived from a "maybe" about Iranians creating their own ADL. Lol, the NIAC isn't even used as a source anyway. I'm not sure what sort of work they've done with this concept, but that doesn't really matter here. Quite a misunderstanding on your part, Zereshk. I hope that you acknowledge this instead of clinging to the strawman... The Behnam 06:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Not really. You specifically state "Without substantial RS scholarly works" at the top of this page, i.e. NIAC is not as "scholarly" to you as ADL, for example. I dont buy your argument. Sorry.--Zereshk 06:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that you have decided to misconstrue my statement again with quote mining as the rest of the sentence is quite critical to the argument: "Without substantial RS scholarly works presenting "anti-Iranianism" as a unified phenomenon." To be honest I don't consider ADL or NIAC "scholarly" because they are simply not scholarly organizations (such as universities). They are advocacy groups. This all is aside from the point. The point is much like my full sentence - this isn't treated as a unified phenomenon by a substantial amount of academic work. Even if there were some small number of people who treated it as such it would still be WP:NEO and WP:FRINGE. On the other hand, antisemitism is a huge deal. There are classes about antisemitism alone, many scholarly and non-scholarly books about antisemitism, ... It is probably the most famous form of discrimination. But "Anti-Iranian sentiment" is only a unified phenomenon on Misplaced Pages, not with the world of reliable sources. The Behnam 06:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

WP doesnt care whether or not you consider ADL or NIAC as scholarly or not. It's not your call. And your definition of "a unified phenomenon" is not a criteria on WP for deletion. In fact WP:IDONTKNOWIT states the opposite: "arguments that state that because a subject is unknown or not well known among English readers it should not have an article encourage a systemic bias on Misplaced Pages."--Zereshk 07:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read the post I already made below, also in reply to you, where I say "I do not recall mentioning anything about language differences so that it irrelevant." I have no idea why you repeated your irrelevant "point." And are you still going on about that ADL & NIAC stuff? They don't really matter to this nomination; again I have no idea why you continue to bring them up. Should I suppose you have nothing real in response to the actual nomination reason so perhaps you prefer distractions...? The Behnam 08:16, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keeep as per users above. Irk _{Come in for a drink!} 23:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as per above. The subject is notable, although it needs work. VartanM 00:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP Nominator's listing of three articles for deletion and apparent personal interest makes me question good faith. What's the difference between this and "anti-Semitism"? Nor is this original research, or unsourced, or something that is unproven, as sources indicate. Anyone else besides me remember what it was like here in the U.S. in 1980? There was a ton of "anti-Iranian sentiment" back then, believe it. Mandsford 01:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Apparent personal interest? How can you let Zereshk lead you into assuming bad faith like this? Heck, I voted "weak keep" last time because I didn't realize the fundamental OR problem. Only after seeing those similar "anti-X" AFDs did I realize that to present the individual facts together without the sources themselves presenting this as a consistent phenomenon consitutes is WP:SYN. The Behnam 02:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keeep Of course anti-Iranian sentiment is real and needs to be documented and exposed, much like racism in general, anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism. SSZ 04:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete poorly sourced, while it may exist, there doesn't seem to be a real term to describe the big idea, nor are there any scholarly opinions discussed in the article, like there are for other prejudices. It also is POV, as it discusses it by arabs and by the United States only, while showing no attempts to show a worldwide opinion outside of these two groups. Seems to violate WP:NEO.--Sefringle 05:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletions. -- Sefringle 05:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletions. -- Sefringle 05:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: The user nominating this article for deletion is violating WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS by listing (links to) other similar AFDs at the very top of this page, as demonstrative of his reason. WP:WAX clearly states: "Sometimes arguments are made that other articles have been put forward for AfD and deleted, ...but even here caution should be used". Also note that a badly written article is not a reason for deletion. And furthermore WP:IDONTKNOWIT states that "arguments that state that because a subject is unknown or not well known among English readers it should not have an article encourage a systemic bias on Misplaced Pages." Whos fault is it if this user or other people have not heard of anti-Iranian sentiments? And the fact that this user has also in the past week or so nominated Iranian women and list of Iranian women for deletion is enough cause for me not to trust the claims of this user.--Zereshk 06:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Poisoning the well?--Sefringle 06:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Hence the fact that I didn't cite those as THE reason for deletion (such as "per x,y, and z deletion debates"). No, I linked them simply because it was pretty much the same situation with the same argument. So calling me on that is invalid. Also I do not recall mentioning anything about language differences so that it irrelevant. Calling me on that is also invalid. As for your repeat of the 'he nominated these others articles recently so he can't be trusted' comment, I must repeat that this is an attempt at poisoning the well and can thus be considered an attack. That's not cool, Zereshk. The Behnam 06:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, The Behnam. Your stated reason of "Without substantial RS scholarly works presenting "anti-Iranianism" as a unified phenomenon (such as antisemitism), we are simply creating this original narrative" is a very weak argument to me. Genetic fallacy just doesnt fly here. My wikipedia motto is always build and improve articles , not delete them.--Zereshk 06:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well it's a good thing that I'm not committing the genetic fallacy here, isn't it Zereshk? The Behnam 06:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally I think people are using AFD as a substitution for cleanup. The topic of this article is clearly notable, I am pretty sure if some of you who are arguing about it (both sides) get off the computer and go to a good library and do a search, you will find not only WP:RS online sources but also academic books or even journal articles on this subject matter. Also I agree that a lot of unconnected information has been presented as all belonging to the modern sociological concept of anti iranianism (which is nothing but a form of racism) including ancient and medieval ethnic prejudices against the ethnic group of Persians has been equated with a modern concept called anti-iranianism. People can argue that Persians are nothing but one of the ethnic groups of modern day Iran (although dominant) so anti Persian doesn’t mean automatically mean anti _Iranian. Inspite of all this shortcomings this is still is a valid subject matter that can be fully restored to an encyclopedic status. Currently it reads like a high school nay primary school student’s homework on a form of racism and many of the sections fail WP:NPOV forcefully. On a personal note about AFD’s, I patrol the AFD’s sometime and when I clearly see something that deserves to be kept and improved, I vote to keep (mostly). Most AFD that end up being deleted deserve to be deleted. But the series of AFD’s on Iranian subject matters clearly are not trivial articles that needed to be deleted. As an advice anyone interested in collaboratively improving Misplaced Pages will never get their point across (even when it is correct) by mass AFDing articles that are not trivial subject matters. One word CLEANUP. Thanks Taprobanus 12:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This article already had its "keep and improve" phase after the last AFD. It really didn't resolve the basic OR problems, and of course did not resolve the fundamental OR problem. The Behnam 21:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not be bold and do the right thing ? Taprobanus 21:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep useful info...--Alborz Fallah 07:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep There are too many silimar articles for arabs, turks, ..., I strongly opposse deleting it --Ali 11:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Taprobanus.Hetoum I 15:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep 63 footnotes does not make original research. Also, the article is/can be NPOV. The article addresses the November 1979 Iranian hostage crisis of the U.S. embassy, from which legitimate and illegitimate Anti-Iranian sentiment can flow. -- Jreferee 18:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Ah yes, the "count of references" method. The Behnam 21:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

  How about the "count the number of comments by the nominator" method? Twenty-two at this point. Now if only there were 22 votes to delete... Mandsford 02:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Um, you object to me defending my position? Sorry for trying to reason with you people - perhaps you all are less interested in a real debate over my core nomination reason and more interested in mindless voting? I simply didn't feel like repeating my argument that a count of references doesn't say anything about original research, as many of these "references" are being used to forward original research; i.e. the ascription of "anti-Iranian" isn't actually in the source. Nor are there appropriate references support the unique narrative created on Misplaced Pages presenting these disparate events as part of a unified phenomenon (with this being the main argument for deletion, it is very interesting how nobody really addresses it with their "keep") Essentially a count completely fails to address original research, and I find it amazing that even another person could vote "keep" upon such a fallacious argument. The Behnam 05:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - It is merely part of a series of anti-X sentiment.Bakaman 21:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Jreferee. - Fedayee 03:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

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