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Transnistria related stuff

Heaven vs Propaganda

Ai participat la prima discuţie pentru ştergerea sandboxului meu, poate eşti interesat să ştii că a fost iar propus pentru ştergere --MariusM 22:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Poate ar fi mai logic sa incerci si ceva mai diferit. Multe din informatiile respective ar merita puse independent in alte articole, iar acela sa devina un articol de 3 aliniate, articol scurt, dar in toata regula.:Dc76 23:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Dc76/Sandbox is something I have created, MariusM has nothing to do with it. I wanted to have time to read that material and see if there is anything useful in the sourse, etc, and have put it into my userspace. But unfortunately I got busy and totally forgot about it until Future Perfect at Sunrise has brought it to my attention a couple weeks ago. I promissed him to read it, and after a few days have done that. I have erased all the text that I found inappropriate (70%), have added some links into another article that could have used them, and have reformulated the remainer to the current form, which is still a bad form, and will require copy editting and comprimation at the rate of 4:1 to be sometimes in the future proposed to be included somewhere. MariusM has himself asked me to erase the text because he is being admonished for having had the orriginal (unedttted) version in his userspace. But I told him that I consider the text being mine, especially b/c I have editted it by stripping out or removing elsewhere 80%, b/c I have reformulated the text to my ear, and in general b/c if he doesn't want to help me in editting it, then he should stay away from it (either help, or give me a break). He did not insist. Do you find a problem with the existence of this sandbox in its current form? I need feedback from people like you. Please, find at the top of that userpage this: "10-points Q: is this actually informative? Ok, this is what I have reduced it to. Now I need oppinions and edits by other editors. Is this worth an article? " dated 21 May. If you want to tell me "erase it, erase it", then obviously I don't like that. But if you tell me "Here is what I consider redundant/useful" and do an edit ofUser:Dc76/Sandbox yourself to show your vision, that would be very helpful and constructive. How do you know that I would disagree? Maybe I'd use your edit. --(Dc76 to El_C)

A book

Hey, Dc76, you can read Russian, right? Here, this book should provide an interesting perspective for you. Read at least the "Хаос как средство обогащения" and "Создание армии ПМР" chapters, if you don't have the time for the whole book. --Illythr 14:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Бывший лейтенант Советской армии, участник вильнюсских событий, Р. Сабиров вместе с группой рижских омоновцев приехал защищать русскоязычных жителей Приднестровья от молдавских националистов. Намерения были благими.

Afterwords it tries to protray Anyufeev as though not from Riga like Sabirov, and hence to black one Riga OMON guy but save the face of the others. But Намерения были благими is like I go fighting for the Taliban and say Намерения are благe.

BTW, the last chapter contains information about illegal sell of weapons by Smirnov.  :Dc76 19:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh, just you read it. It's got lots more of that. The book is of course POV, but what makes it valuable is the fact that it is not a piece of pro-Smirnov propaganda. The author is quite clearly no friend of Smirnov & Co, we can be sure of that. Nor is the author happy with the actions of the Russian government. --Illythr 18:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I noted that. Thank you very much for the link. I will read it, it seems interesting. :Dc76 18:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

imho

IMHO stands for "in my humble opinion". See here, for example. In Russian IMHO (ИМХО) is sometimes interpreted as "Имею Мнение - Хрен Оспоришь" :) Alaexis 19:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

USA asks Russia to withdraw

hey man, see this link http://www.ziua.ro/display.php?data=2007-06-09&id=222040

Camera Reprezentantilor de la Washington dezbate o rezolutie care cere retragerea armatei ruse -Transnistria fara rusi

La Camera Reprezentantilor a Congresului SUA a fost depusa o rezolutie prin care Rusiei i se cere sa-si evacueze neconditionat fortele armate si munitiile din Transnistria, transmite Rompres. Potrivit reprezentantului secretariatului Camerei, rezolutia a fost depusa de un grup de 8 parlamentari americani. Documentul urmeaza sa fie examinat si votat in Comitetul pentru afaceri externe.

Conform rezolutiei citate, prezenta fortelor militare ruse in regiunea transnistreana a Moldovei este o incalcare flagranta a suveranitatii republicii. Documentul mentioneaza ca Rusia si-a luat angajamentul de a-si evacua trupele din Transnistria pana in 2002, termen deja expirat, la summitul OSCE de la Istanbul (1999).

Rusia incalca angajamentele fata de OSCE

In rezolutie se arata ca, in prezent, 1250 de soldati rusi se afla inca in Transnistria in pofida vointei populatiei Moldovei, iar din partea Rusiei nu exista nici un semn al vointei de continuare a procesului evacuarii, ceea ce constituie o incalcare a angajamentelor luate fata de OSCE. De asemenea, rezolutia propune inlocuirea contingentului militar amplasat in zona de securitate ce separa Transnistria de restul Moldovei cu un contingent multinational de pace, sub mandat OSCE.

Reprezentantul special al UE pentru Moldova, Kalman Mizsei, a declarat pentru publicatia europeana EUobserver, ca, la sfarsitul acestei luni, ar putea avea loc o reuniune a participantilor formatului 5 plus 2 (Republica Moldova, Transnistria, Rusia, Ucraina si OSCE, plus SUA si UE). El a explicat ca, potrivit viziunii Chisinaului de solutionare a conflictului, Rusia ar putea sa-si retraga munitia din Transnistria in 4-6 luni dupa semnarea unui acord privind viitorul Transnistriei si ca, pana in ianuarie 2009, soldatii rusi ar putea fi inlocuiti cu o misiune internationala de monitorizare.

Misiunea internationala de monitorizare ar putea fi de natura militara sau politieneasca, posibil sa includa atat forte rusesti, cat si ale UE. Mizsei a adaugat ca el nu are cunostinta decat de propunerile moldovenesti de reglementare -"destul de sensibile" - in urma negocierilor bilaterale dintre Chisinau si Tiraspol.

Acord secretChisinau-Moscova

Referitor la existenta unui acord secret intre Rusia si Moldova, despre care s-a tot vorbit in ultimul timp, un alt inalt diplomat european din grupul 5 plus 2 a declarat pentru EUobserver, sub rezerva anonimatului, ca el a vazut un "document" care prevede functii-cheie pentru oficialii transnistreni in guvernul moldovenesc dupa reglementarea conflictului, conform acelorasi surse. El a spus ca documentul ofera Rusiei posibilitatea de a-si pastra soldatii sai pe un termen nedefinit, oferind, astfel, Moscovei un control de facto al Republicii Moldova.

Un alt oficial dintr-un stat membru al UE a avertizat, potrivit acelorasi surse, ca daca o formula finala de reglementare a conflictului trasnistrean va fi prea prorusa, aceasta ar putea inflama opozitia interna din Moldova fata de presedintele Vladimir Voronin, care ar raspunde cu forta si si-ar compromite atasamentul pentru apropierea de Europa si reforme democratice. Oficialul UE a spus ca, in acest caz, ajutorul financiar pentru Republica Moldova, in valoare de 1,1 miliarde euro, prevazut pentru 2007- 2010 din partea UE si SUA, ar putea fi sistat. El a adaugat ca unele tari membre ale UE sustin ideea trimiterii militarilor UE in Transnistria, iar altii considera ca soldatii rusi stationati, de exemplu, langa soldatii polonezi, intr-o misiune mixta "ar putea sa nu functioneze bine".

Tones benefit related stuff

• Moldova and NATO
• Membership Action Plan
• 2006 Riga summit
• 2008 Bucharest summit
• User:Tones benefit/Sandbox

what is a "leave a comment" now in menu? is it something new to my page?--Tones benefit 20:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages changes minor things in appearance. This is from today only, before there was a plus sign (+) instead. By clicking on it you will be creating a new section, so that you don't have to scroll down or have "edit conflicts" with others that might leave messages concomitantly with you.:Dc76 21:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Eastern block articles

Soviet system in Eastern block is here described (if it is described at all) in articles related to individual countries. I have started two articles synthetizing Sovietisation in many countries, one of them was quickly removed by a small group Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Soviet university. I find it very sad, that the former Eastern block nations aren't able to cooperate in describing their Soviet past. Xx236 06:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles

• Fântâna Albă massacre was an even that took place on 1 April 1941, when about 2,500-3,000 civilians tried to cross the border from the Soviet occupied Northern Bukovina into Romania. NKVD opened fire and killed about 200 on the spot, then hunted several hundred others through the woods.

Problems with other editors: 1) Downplaying the number of victims to that in the official Soviet report, i.e. to 20 dead. 2) changing "massacre" into "incident". 3) adding "were warned and hence the Soviets were right to open fire upon people trying to cross illegally the border" (fire was open seconds after shouting at the civilian column to stop). :Dc76 14:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ion Antonescu was the dictator of Romania from September 1940 till August 1944. He was a capable officer of the general stuff in WWI, later had personal grudges with the king Carol II (1930-1940), and came to power on the wave of popular revolt against Carol II's succombing to Hitler-imposed Second Vienna Award (northern Transylvania was taken from Romania and given to Horty's Hungary). In february 1941, Antonescu, in quest to establish authoritarian power, with Hitler's consent, distroyed the pro-fascist Iron Guard (something like Hitler distroying Rhom). Antonescu had no political affiliation, being a military. He became something like Romania's Franco, however unlike Franco, he met and in time became close to Hitler. After taking back in June-July 1941 the Soviet occupied (in June 1940) Bessarabia and norhtern Bukovina, Romanian army did not continue to fight the Soviets. At this point, however, Antonescu, did not as expected by the population restore democracy.

During the next month, Hitler did his best to persuade Antonescu to continue the war against the USSR, and Antonescu sent troops to help Germany's advance. Antonescu used Romanian army to occupy a region of Ukraine proper (Transnisria (WWII)), where he deported 120,000 Romanian Jews (out of 700,000) + interned about 100,000 local Jews. Most died in ghettos and labour camps, 30% survived. Antonescu has personally issued orders to kill Jews. In August 1944, Antonescu was arrested by the young king Mihai I, who turned Romania to the Allies' side, and a week later was occupied by the Soviet army. Antonescu was judged in 1946 by a court closely supervised by the Soviets, and along with 20 or 21 others was condemned to death.

In 2006, a Romanian court overturned some details from Antonescu's conviction: Attacking Soviet union in June-July 1941 in order to recover lost territories was removed from "crimes against peace". Continuing the war on proper Soviet territory from end of August 1941 on was upheld to be an invasion, and hence still a "crime against peace". The court refused even to re-consider "crimes agianst humanity", since as the court explained "having legal right to recover own territory does not give any right to deport and/or kill civilians".

Problems with other editors: Some tried in the past to portray 2006 court decision as a "Rehabilitation of Antonescu" and suggest that with this court decision Romania officially pormotes revisionism and neo-fascism. :Dc76 14:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• NKVD prisoner massacres, an article started by Xx236. Can use Romanian imput related to Tatarka common graves, and also stuff from here or the like. Can also use lot of input from the Baltic States, from Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Finland, and from other places. :Dc76 14:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

People that might be of assistance

• A Zarini, a contributor to Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact articles on Russian WP

(Neo-)Stalinism watchdog?

For what it's worth, my apologies for the "bullying and stigmatization" you'd to suffer for taking part in the discussion. If it makes you feel any better: imagine that some of us had to live through such discussions with the same users for years... makes you wonder if we should really dedicate our lives to it, sometimes, doesn't it? But I hope you don't give up with occasional contributions to related subjects - I had seen too many good editors chased off wiki by such atmosphere, and I am hoping that this ArbCom will finally stop what you have so well described.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about anon users, but yes, I have seen such modus operandi for years. That said, I have seen them fail more often then win: in the end, many neutral editors see good article for what it is, and personal attacks disguised as arguments for what they are. My biggest regret is that some editors can't stand abusive atmosphere created by personal attacks and leave Misplaced Pages. I don't expect that this ArbCom will solve 'all problems', but it has a potential to restrict the actions of several big trouble makers active in our area of interest, hopefully giving a signal to others that their incivility will not be tolerated - or at least showing others that there is a way to stop them from disrupting the project further.

On other note, I have to say that I have not been following articles related to Baltic states often, but I'd be happy to help if and when needed if they touch on Polish history. In such cases, don't hesitate to post at WP:PWNB. Take care, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Regrettably, the editors most sensitive to this kind of noise pollution tend to be the best editors. If the forces that drive them out are allowed free reign, it will mean continously lowering quality for Misplaced Pages as a whole. Digwuren 20:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I assumed you are from the north for some reason :) Romanian subjects are quite fascinating, once with Dahn we wrote the Polish-Romanian alliance. I will check the articles you mentioned; there is nothing currently I am working on that needs significant input from your area, but I hope we will stay in touch.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I am from the north, actually — I claim Swedish ancestry :-)

I'm rather forced to be silent on the southern affairs, as I feel I do not know enough about their background to be able to productively contribute. I'm learning to improve the situation — but, alas, slower than I would like. Thus, for a while, expect mainly meta-comments from me, and perhaps a few corrections of particularly egregious neo-Stalinist distortions.

Here's a meta-comment: regrettably, Ghirlandajo's behaviour is rather effective. As unfortunate as it is, his absurd accusations (such as the ones leading into Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Estophobia) stick — and this provides a nearly foolproof way to reframe almost every conflict on Misplaced Pages as "content dispute", and keeping administrative intervention away, at least until some participant becomes too obviously obnoxious, like happened to M.V.E.i. In every society, unwritten laws trump the written laws, and current Misplaced Pages's unwritten laws favour Ghirlandajo's behaviour to the point that one is tempted to start emulating him — after all, the road to fame and riches meanders through edit count and wild accusations, and edit count is easy to grow in edit wars ...

I do not know an easy way out of this sticky situation. I'm certainly not inclined to try to out-Ghirlandajo Ghirlandajo, nor can I suggest this approach to anybody else. I have a few ideas for improving WP:POLICY, but my suggestions at this point of time would be easily trampled by these same forces. I still believe that in the long perspective, amending the Policy can go a long way, though.

Meanwhile, I can suggest a little more coöperation. Myself, I might not be very knowledgeable about the military tactics Wehrmacht worked out for streets of Bucharest, or the architectural trends of 19th-century Polish churches, but I have a fairly good grasp on Stalinist ideology, as well as the Soviet approach to propaganda, and when given an overview of a problem, I believe I can learn enough about the particular topics to be able to debate within its scope. Similarly, Piotrus might not know the details of mineral composition of eastern Latvian soil, or the detailed history of interwar Estonian spies in Germany, but he knows Ghirlandajo's tricks, and he also knows Soviet history. Building on this shared knowledge, we could pool our resources. On Misplaced Pages, an actively expressed consensus is more powerful than a silent agreement, and this is a force that can be harnessed to counter WP:TE so loved by worshippes of a certain moustached Georgian.

Thus, I'm requesting that a brief overview — perhaps with links to background information — be provided to me whenever persistent "content disputes" of the above-explained kind arise, so I could assist. I'm particularly interested in cases involving the "nearby foreign lands" of Russia — and that includes both Poland and Romania as well as, for example, Slovakia. (Alas, I'm unable to continuously keep most of these articles in my watchlist; even now, the 500-edit limit rolls over faster than a day.) Together, through the magic of vocal consensus, it is possible to make sure that Anonimu and his ilk can't swamp out the facts they Just Don't Like, and replace them with propaganda, or even outright delete them. (Take a look at the way he lured Dpotop into a WP:3RR trap, by the way.)

As a return, I can promise offering similar service regarding more northern topics to anybody interested. We used to have problems with Petri Krohn, but he's been considerably politer after the RFC. Estonia-related articles are currently being manipulated primarily by RJ CG, a small-scale activist, and a few even lesser gastrollers, such as Cmapm; consequently, it's likely that my alerts will be rather infrequent in the near future. I'm hoping Vecrumba will be able to raise alarm on attacks an Latvia-related topics, and so on. I have come to find his edits particularly reliable and trustworthy, but he's kind of busy with off-Misplaced Pages affairs right now.

It might be worthwile to set up a Misplaced Pages:Neo-Stalinist Activity Watch messageboard for this purpose, or perhaps, a mailing list. For now, user talk pages will do nicely, though. So, whenever Kuban kazak is going pesky again, or Anonimu is trying to force Communist propaganda into articles; if my presence can help, leave me a message, explain the problem, and I'll try to do my best. Digwuren 02:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting proposal, Digwuren. To start with, how about we get back to basics: let's look at the very definition of Stalinism, and the associated term, Stalinist. I've had recently a rather eerie discussion on this topic, at Talk:Leninism#"Stalinism" is POV. The correct term is "Marxism Leninism", which also include Mao's thought. Maybe you guys can join in, and express your opinion on the terminology? Turgidson 04:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

While at it, how come we have Category:Marxists, Category:Communists, Category:Trotskyists, as well as Category:Marxism, Category:Communism, Category:Trotskyism, etc, but no Category:Stalinists, or, perhaps, Category:Stalinism? Turgidson 04:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Marxism-Leninism differs greatly from stalinism. I would even dare to say that stalinism has nothing to do with communism. The reason why wikipedia does not want to recognize it, is probably great number of neo-soviets around who find the definition of stalinism offensive towards their beliefs. Suva 10:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I would put it this way: Marxism was an economic theory. Marxism-Leninism was a justification for a revolution, and a bunch of ideas on What To Do Afterwards. Stalinism was an ideology of governance that granted Marxism-Leninism a passing nod of "uh huh" because that was the revolution that had given Stalinism its power. Neo-Stalinism is a modern-day desire to be associated with something Big And Powerful(tm), in the Right Wing Authoritarianism sense. Digwuren 15:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, Digwuren's idea is interesting. For now, I do not have any helpful suggestions of how to set this practically, and I'll abstain from proposing a modus operandi just for the sake of proposing something. But I do support to set up a place where Stalinism and neo-Stalinism related "brief overview — perhaps with links to background information — be provided whenever persistent "content disputes" of the above-explained kind arise".

Just for the curriosity of people who know Russian and could use some reading in spare time, I have a book called "Tainyi Sovetnik Vozhdya" by Vladimir Uspenskii (7MB, html format). When I got it, I remember I have found online suggestions that it is a total fiction. The author, obviously claims everything is genuine. In short, as the title says (Secret Councelor of the Leader), the book pretends to be about a formet officer in the White Army, who by personal circumstances becomes very close to Stalin in 1918 and his "secret" councilor, especially in military affairs, afterwards. The action spanns to 1953 and after, but about 60% of it is about 1941-1945. The author claims that he has met "the councelor" in 1970, who has told him the details and has provided him supporting documents (the author also says he has returned th documments back afterwards!). At any rate, the author himslef was dedicated to study Stalin for about 30 years, and has undoubtably accumulated himself some knowledge. Why did he chose to mix it with the tale of "the councelor", I don't know. The book is as sympathetic and prazing of Stalin as it can be, they simply adore Stalin. But I think it is a very intersting gate into the psichy of the Stalin's fans (not Stalinism in general, but plain personally towards Stalin). It contains some interesting information, such as: how Stalin sidelined Trotsky, how Khrushchev and Zhukov sidelined Beria, a little about Soviet spies in the west, including related to the atomic bomb, stuff about Stalin' anti-semitism and "probable" causes, a little about the last days of Stalin's life, also stuff about his family, even why Stalin chose the name Stalin. I must warn those interested that it is not a documentary, but a mixture, so you never know if different details are true or invented. Let me know if anyone is interested, I can email it. :Dc76 12:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

We can set up a page containing many items like the examples here above. Feel free to continue the discussion if you have sometihng to say (I've finished cleaning and archieving) :Dc76 14:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

is an interesting journal, International Socialism, published in London from 1958 to 1969, 1970-74, and1975-79. It contained peer-reviewed material. Maybe, we can create also a "resourse page" for links related to Stalinism. I found this link while searching for this book by , which apparently is famous, except that in my ignorance today I heard about it for the first time. :Dc76 14:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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User:FayssalF

He isn't happy if he's not the one in control. Kingjeff 20:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi fellow fun of FC Bayern Munich. I don't care about FayssalF happyness or habbits. I am only refering to a very particular block, which imho was incorrect. If you have evidence of serious abuse from FayssalF, bring it up for discussion, but that's a totally different question, and I won't participate in such things b/c I don't have time for them.:Dc76 20:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

re:About 3RR

That suggestion seems fine, although I believe Eurocopter is going on a short wikibreak anyways, so it shouldn't be a big deal. I admit that I was a bit upset with Eurocopter when I made the comment at the 3RR noticeboard, but I'm well over that. Truth be told, he/she isn't really the problem with regards to reaching compromise at the article, I've worked with Euro earlier on essentially the same issue on a similar page, and we (Euro, another editor, and I) were able to reach a suitable compromise; User:Lear 21 is the one who apparently will not attempt to compromise. Thanks for your help here. Parsecboy 20:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds ok to me. I agree that there should be no animosity here. I've got no hostility towards Eurocopter, and I don't think he deserves to have a block on his record. Parsecboy 20:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about false map

If you want to see something interesting you must to look article Borders before and after Yugoslavia, PANONIAN map of Serbia in 1918 and our discussion about this map. Discussion is on discussion page of article for which I have given you link. In last week I am fighting with PANONIAN that this fantasy map in which even Pecs and Timisoara are Serbian territory be deleted on wiki. ---Rjecina 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I changed the name into this one :)--Ursul pacalit de vulpe 06:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

See what Anonimu is doing on the page..--Ursul pacalit de vulpe 14:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

ANI

Let me know if you feel I should add my oppinion on ANI/Transnistria. For the time being, I preferred not to, because I took a clear position against the group of 3 Russian admins controlling Eastern European subjects. Thus, me intervening could hamper your position. Dpotop 17:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)