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Albania B‑class Top‑importance

Albania is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

This is a WikiProject, an area for focused collaboration among Wikipedians. New participants are welcome; please feel free to participate! Guide to WikiProjects Directory of WikiProjects

Shortcuts WP:WPC WP:COUNTRIES

This WikiProject helps develop country-related pages (of all types) and works toward standardizing the formats of sets and types of country-related pages. For example, the sets of Culture of x, Administrative divisions of x, and Demographics of x articles, etc. – (where "x" is a country name) – and the various types of pages, like stubs, categories, etc.

What's new?

Articles for deletion

• 05 Dec 2024 – Emirate of Banu Talis (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by R Prazeres (t · c); see discussion (5 participants; relisted)

Categories for discussion

• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in South America by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 22 Dec 2024 – Category:Same-sex marriage in Europe by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by MikutoH (t · c); see discussion
• 21 Dec 2024 – Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by country (talk · edit · hist) was CfDed by Sims2aholic8 (t · c); see discussion

Redirects for discussion

• 24 Dec 2024 – Save The Montagnard People (talk · edit · hist) →Degar State was RfDed by Rusalkii (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Old Roman Empire (talk · edit · hist) →Roman Empire was RfDed by Veverve (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Les États Unis d'Amérique (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Соединенные Штаты Америки (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – 米国 (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Estados Unidos da América (talk · edit · hist) →United States was RfDed by Hey man im josh (t · c); see discussion
• 12 Nov 2024 – Canadaa (talk · edit · hist) →Canada was RfDed by TeapotsOfDoom (t · c); see discussion
• undated – Yemen-Taizz (talk · edit · hist) →Kingdom of Yemen was RfDed

(1 more...)

Good article nominees

• 01 Oct 2024 – Regency of Algiers (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Nourerrahmane (t · c); see discussion
• 01 Oct 2024 – Connecticut Colony (talk · edit · hist) was GA nominated by Gazingo (t · c); start discussion

Featured article reviews

• 30 Oct 2023 – Byzantine Empire (talk · edit · hist) was put up for FA review by SandyGeorgia (t · c); see discussion

Requests for comments

• 08 Dec 2024 – Estado Novo (Portugal) (talk · edit · hist) has an RfC by 2804:29B8:5183:100C:7163:1F92:A81A:7841 (t · c); see discussion

Peer reviews

• 24 Dec 2024 – Central Powers (talk · edit · hist) has been put up for PR by History6042 (t · c); see discussion

Requested moves

• 23 Dec 2024 – Slovak Republic (1939–1945) (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to First Slovak Republic by 143.179.74.165 (t · c); see discussion
• 13 Dec 2024 – Syrian opposition (talk · edit · hist) is requested to be moved to Syrian opposition to Bashar al-Assad by Panam2014 (t · c); see discussion
• 17 Dec 2024 – Threatening statements in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) move request somewhere else by CanonNi (t · c) was moved to Red lines in the Russo-Ukrainian War (talk · edit · hist) by Cyberdog958 (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion
• 16 Dec 2024 – East Timor (talk · edit · hist) move request to Timor-Leste by Kenneth Kho (t · c) was moved to Timor-Leste (talk · edit · hist) by Robertsky (t · c) on 24 Dec 2024; see discussion

Articles to be merged

• 29 Nov 2024 – Uyunid Emirate (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Uyunid dynasty by Mrox2 (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Nov 2024 – Champa (Ja Thak Wa) (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for merging to Ja Thak Wa uprising by 27.96.243.106 (t · c); see discussion

Articles to be split

• 29 Nov 2024 – Sind State (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Veritasphere (t · c); see discussion
• 05 Oct 2024 – Francoist Spain (talk · edit · hist) is proposed for splitting by Salmoonlight (t · c); see discussion

To do list

To-do list for Albania: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-08-27 There are no active tasks for this page

Scope

This WikiProject is focused on country coverage (content/gaps) and presentation (navigation, page naming, layout, formatting) on Misplaced Pages, especially country articles (articles with countries as their titles), country outlines, and articles with a country in their name (such as Demographics of Germany), but also all other country-related articles, stubs, categories, and lists pertaining to countries.

Navigation

This WikiProject helps Misplaced Pages's navigation-related WikiProjects (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Outline of knowledge, WikiProject Categories, WikiProject Portals, etc.) develop and maintain the navigation structures (menus, outlines, lists, templates, and categories) pertaining to countries. And since most countries share the same subtopics ("Cities of", "Cuisine of", "Religion in", "Prostitution in", etc.), it is advantageous to standardize their naming, and their order of presentation in Misplaced Pages's indexes and table-of-contents-like pages.

Categories

Subpages

• List of all subpages of this page.

Formatting

Many country and country-related articles have been extensively developed, but much systematic or similar information about many countries is not presented in a consistent way. Inconsistencies are rampant in article naming, headings, data presented, types of things covered, order of coverage, etc. This WikiProject works towards standardizing page layouts of country-related articles of the same type ("Geography of", "Government of", "Politics of", "Wildlife of", etc.).

We are also involved with the standardization of country-related stubs, standardizing the structure of country-related lists and categories (the category trees for countries should be identical for the most part, as most countries share the same subcategories – though there will be some differences of course).

Goals

1. Provide a centralized resource guide of all related topics in Misplaced Pages, as well as spearhead the effort to improve and develop them.
2. Create uniform templates that serve to identify all related articles as part of this project, as well as stub templates to englobe all related stubs under specific categories.
3. Standardize articles about different nations, cultures, holidays, and geography.
4. Verify historical accuracy and neutrality of all articles within the scope of the project.
5. Create, expand and cleanup related articles.

Structure and guidelines

This section contains an essay on style, consisting of the advice or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how to format and present article content within their area of interest.This information is not a formal Misplaced Pages policy or guideline, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community.

Although referenced during FA and GA reviews, this structure guide is advisory only, and should not be enforced against the wishes of those actually working on the article in question. Articles may be best modeled on the layout of an existing article of appropriate structure and topic (See: Canada, Japan and Australia)

Main polities

A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term "country" may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.

Lead section

• WP:COUNTRYLEAD

For lead length see, #Size

Opening paragraphs

The article should start with a good simple introduction, giving name of the country, general location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia). Also, add a few facts about the country, the things that it is known for (for example the mentioning of windmills in the Netherlands article). The primary purpose of a Misplaced Pages lead is not to summarize the topic, but to summarize the content of the article.

First sentence

The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is, and where. It should be in plain English.

The etymology of a country's name, if worth noting and naming disputes, may be dealt with in the etymology section. Foreign-languages, pronunciations and acronyms may also belong in the etymology section or in a note to avoid WP:LEADCLUTTER.

Example:

Y Sweden, formally the Kingdom of Sweden, is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.
N Sweden,(Swedish: Sverige ) formally the Kingdom of Sweden,(Swedish: Konungariket Sverige ) is a Nordic country located on the Scandinavian Peninsula in Northern Europe.

Detail, duplication and tangible information

• WP:COUNTRYDETAIL

Overly detailed information or infobox data duplication such as listing random examples, excessive numbered statistics or naming individuals should be reserved for the infobox or body of the article. The lead prose should provide clear, relevant information through links to relevant sub-articles about the country an relevant terms, rather than listing random stats and articles with minimal information about the country.

Example:

Y A developed country, Canada has a high nominal per capita income globally and its advanced economy ranks among the largest in the world, relying chiefly upon its abundant natural resources and well-developed international trade networks. Recognized as a middle power, Canada's strong support for multilateralism and internationalism has been closely related to its foreign relations policies of peacekeeping and aid for developing countries. Canada is part of multiple international organizations and forums.
N A highly developed country, Canada has the seventeenth-highest nominal per-capita income globally and the sixteenth-highest ranking in the Human Development Index. Its advanced economy is the tenth-largest in the world and the 14th for military expenditure by country, Canada is part of several major international institutions including the United Nations, NATO, the G7, the Group of Ten, the G20, the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement, the Commonwealth of Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, and the Organization of American States.

Infobox

There is a table with quick facts about the country called an infobox. A template for the table can be found at the bottom of this page.

Although the table can be moved out to the template namespace (to e.g. ]) and thus easen the look of the edit page, most Wikipedians still disapprove as of now, see the talk page.

The contents are as follows:

• The official long-form name of the country in the local language is to go on top as the caption. If there are several official names (languages), list all (if reasonably feasible). The conventional long-form name (in English), if it differs from the local long-form name, should follow the local name(s). This is not a parameter to list every recognized language of a country, but rather for listing officially recognize national languages.
• The conventional short-form name of the country, recognised by the majority of the English-speaking world; ideally, this should also be used for the name of the article.
• A picture of the national flag. You can find flags at the List of flags. A smaller version should be included in the table itself, a larger-sized version in a page titled Flag of <country>, linked to via the "In Detail" cell. Instead of two different images, use the autothumbnail function that wiki offers.
• A picture of the national coat of arms. A good source is required for this, but not yet available. It should be no more than 125 pixels in width.
• Below the flag and coat of arms is room for the national motto, often displayed on the coat of arms (with translation, if necessary).
• The official language(s) of the country. (rot the place to list every recognized or used language)
• The political status. Specify if it is a sovereign state or a dependent territory.
• The capital city, or cities. Explain the differences if there are multiple capital cities using a footnote (see example at the Netherlands).
• If the data on the population is recent and reliable, add the largest city of the country.
• Land area: The area of the country in square kilometres (km²) and square miles (sq mi) with the world-ranking of this country. Also add the % of water, which can be calculated from the data in the Geography article (make it negligible if ~0%).
• Population: The number of inhabitants and the world-ranking; also include a year for this estimate (should be 2000 for now, as that is the date of the ranking). For the population density you can use the numbers now available.
• GDP: The amount of the gross domestic product on ppp base and the world ranking. also include the amount total and per head.
• HDI: Information pertaining to the UN Human Development Index – the value, year (of value), rank (with ordinal), and category (colourised as per the HDI country list).
• Currency; the name of the local currency. Use the pipe if the currency name is also used in other countries: ].
• Time zone(s); the time zone or zones in which the country is relative to UTC
• National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.
• Internet TLD; the top-level domain code for this country.
• Calling Code; the international Calling Code used for dialing this country.

Lead map

There is a long-standing practice that areas out of a state's control should be depicted differently on introductory maps, to not give the impression the powers of a state extend somewhere they do not. This is for various types of a lack of control, be it another state (eg. Crimea, bits of Kashmir) or a separatist body (eg. DPR, TRNC).

Sections

• WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS

A section should be written in summary style, containing just the important facts. Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery. Main article fixation is an observed effect that editors are likely to encounter in county articles. If a section it is too large, information should be transferred to the sub-article. Avoid sections focusing on criticisms or controversies. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections.

Articles may consist of the following sections:

• Etymology sections are often placed first (sometimes called name depending on the information in the article). Include only if due information is available.
• History – An outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs, depending on complexity of history), including some detail on current events. Sub-article: "History of X"
• Politics – Overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Sub-article: "Politics of X"
• Administrative divisions – Overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (and subsequent levels, if available) (e.g. provinces, states, departments, districts, etc.) and give the English equivalent name, when available. Also include overseas possessions. This section should also include an overview map of the country and subdivisions, if available.
• Geography – Details of the country's main geographic features and climate. Historical weather boxes should be reserved for sub articles. Sub-article: "Geography of X"
• Economy – Details on the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Sub-article: "Economy of X"
• Demographics – Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Uncontextualized data and charts should be avoided. (See WP:NOTSTATS and WP:PROSE) Sub-article: "Demographics of X".
• Culture – Summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known cultural contributions. Caution should be taken to ensure that the sections are not simply a listing of names or mini biographies of individuals accomplishments. Good example Canada#Sports. Sub-article: "Culture of X".
• See also – 'See also" sections of country articles normally only contain links to "Index of country" and "Outline of country" articles, alongside the main portal(s).
• References – Sums up "Notes", "References", and all "Further Reading" or "Bibliography"
• External links – Links to official websites about the country. See WP:External links

Size

• WP:COUNTRYSIZE

Articles that have gone through FA and GA reviews generally consists of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 words as per WP:SIZERULE, with a lead usually 250 to 400 words as per MOS:LEADLENGTH.

• Australia = Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9,304 words) "readable prose size"
• Bulgaria = Prose size (text only): 56 kB (8,847 words) "readable prose size"
• Canada = Prose size (text only): 67 kB (9,834 words) "readable prose size"
• Germany = Prose size (text only): 54 kB (8,456 words) "readable prose size"
• Japan = Prose size (text only): 51 kB (8,104 words) "readable prose size"
• East Timor = Prose size (text only): 53 kB (8,152 words) "readable prose size"
• Malaysia = Prose size (text only): 57 kB (9,092 words) "readable prose size"
• New Zealand = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,761 words) "readable prose size"
• Philippines = Prose size (text only): 62 kB (9,178 words) "readable prose size"

Hatnote

The link should be shown as below: Avoid link clutter of multiple child articles in a hierarchical setup as hatnotes. Important links/articles should be incorporated into the prose of the section. For example, Canada#Economy is a summary section with a hatnote to Economy of Canada that summarizes the history with a hatnote to Economic history of Canada. See WP:SUMMARYHATNOTE for more recommended hatnote usages.

Y== Economy ==

N== Economy ==

Charts

• WP:COUNTRYCHARTS

As prose text is preferred, overly detailed statistical charts and diagrams that lack any context or explanation such as; economic trends, weather boxes, historical population charts, and past elections results, etc, should be reserved for main sub articles on the topic as per WP:DETAIL as outlined at WP:NOTSTATS.

Galleries

• WP:COUNTRYGALLERIE

Galleries or clusters of images are generally discouraged as they may cause undue weight to one particular section of a summary article and may cause accessibility problems, such as sand­wich­ing of text, images that are too small or fragmented image display for some readers as outlined at WP:GALLERY. Articles that have gone through modern FA and GA reviews generally consists of one image for every three or four paragraph summary section, see MOS:ACCESS#FLOAT and MOS:SECTIONLOC for more information.

Footers

As noted at Misplaced Pages:Categories, lists, and series boxes the number of templates at the bottom of any article should be kept to a minimum. Country pages generally have footers that link to pages for countries in their geographic region. Footers for international organizations are not added to country pages, but they rather can go on subpages such as "Economy of..." and "Foreign relations of..." Categories for some of these organizations are also sometimes added. Templates for supranational organizations like the European Union and CARICOM are permitted. A list of the footers that have been created can be found at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Templates/Navboxes, however note that many of these are not currently in use.

Transclusions

Transclusions are generally discouraged in country articles for reasons outlined below.

• H:TRANSDRAWBACKS

Like many software technologies, transclusion comes with a number of drawbacks. The most obvious one being the cost in terms of increased machine resources needed; to mitigate this to some extent, template limits are imposed by the software to reduce the complexity of pages. Some further drawbacks are listed below.

• Transcluded text may have no sources for statements that should be sourced where they appear, have different established reference styles, contain no-text cite errors, or duplicate key errors. (To help mitigate these, see Help:Cite errors)
• Excerpts break the link between article code and article output.
• Changes made to transcluded content often do not appear in watchlists, resulting in unseen changes on the target page.
• Transcluded text may cause repeated links or have different varieties of English and date formats than the target page.
• Transclusions may not reflect protection levels, resulting in transcluded text perhaps having a different level of protection than the target page. See Cascading protection
• {{excerpt}} and related templates may require using <noinclude>, <includeonly> and <onlyinclude> markup at the transcluded page to have selective content; that would require monitoring that the markup is sustained.
• Excerpts cause editors to monitor transcluded pages for "section heading" changes to ensure transclusion continues to work. (To help mitigate this, see MOS:BROKENSECTIONLINKS)
• Excerpts can result in content discussions over multiple talk pages that may have different considerations or objectives for readers.

Lists of countries

To determine which entities should be considered separate "countries" or included on lists, use the entries in ISO 3166-1 plus the list of states with limited recognition, except:

• Lists based on only a single source should follow that source.
• Specific lists might need more logical criteria. For example, list of sovereign states omits non-sovereign entities listed by ISO-3166-1. Lists of sports teams list whichever entities that have teams, regardless of sovereignty. Lists of laws might follow jurisdiction boundaries (for example, England and Wales is a single jurisdiction).

For consistency with other Misplaced Pages articles, the names of entities do not need to follow sources or ISO-3166-1. The names used as the titles of English Misplaced Pages articles are a safe choice for those that are disputed.

Resources

Sisterlinks

Related WikiProjects

• WikiProject Former countries
• WikiProject Micronations
• WikiProject Limited recognition

Popular pages

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries/Popular pages

Notes

1. Swedish: Sverige ; Finnish: Ruotsi; Meänkieli: Ruotti; Northern Sami: Ruoŧŧa; Lule Sami: Svierik; Pite Sami: Sverji; Ume Sami: Sverje; Southern Sami: Sveerje or Svöörje; Yiddish: שוועדן, romanized: Shvedn; Scandoromani: Svedikko; Kalo Finnish Romani: Sveittiko.
2. Swedish: Konungariket Sverige

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Europe Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Europe, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to European topics of a cross-border nature on Misplaced Pages.EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject EuropeTemplate:WikiProject EuropeEurope ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Template:WPCD-places Template:V0.5

reverting in history section

User Taulant23 keeps reverting my edits in the history section, particularly concerning the Pelasgians and Dodona. This is outrageous, as these subjects have nothing to do with albania.

1) Dodona is a Greek sanctuary located in Greece, and therefore does not belong in this article. Its inclusion here is a brazen attempt to steal a piece of Greece's cultural heritage and implies territorial claims on Greece. This is outrageous and it has to be removed.
2) There is currently not a single piece of evidence linking modern-day albanians to the ancient Pelasgians. The very nature of the Pelasgians is the subject of considerable debate and their identity is by no means a certainty. While there is every reason to believe that albanians are an ancient balkan people, to claim a pelasgian-albanian link is purely speculative at this point. Furthermore, the section on the walls of Attica have nothing to do with Albania and should be removed. The mere mention of the above implies territorial claims on Greece and reeks of nationalist "we are the oldest people in the world" type crap. While informed users will laugh at this, it is potentially dangerous as uninformed readers may fall for it.
3)It is certainly true that the areas comprising southern albania was inhabited by the Chaones and Molossians, which are Greek tribes.

Taulant23, if you have something to say about the above, I certainly would like to hear it. Of course, it is probably difficult for you to argue against these points, so that is probably why you keep reverting my edits and refuse to engage in a discussion. If you revert my edits one more time I will report you to the administrators for vandalism. consider yourself warned.Tsourkpk 00:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To Tsourkpk:

1) Dodona is located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea.

2) Herodotus , Hahns etc etc.The article shows the two sides of the story.Don't use it as nationalism nor am I.

The Illyrians were also Pelasgians{Pelazget in Albanian}, but in a wider sense. Moreover it is believed that of these cognate races, which are described by the ancient Greek writers as "barbarous" and "non-Hellenic," the Illyrians were the progenitors of the Ghegs, or Northern Albanians, and the Epirots the progenitors of the Tosks, or Southern Albanians. This general opinion is borne out the statement of Strabo that the Via Egnatia, which he describes as forming the boundary between the Illyrians and the Epirots, practically corresponds with the course of river Shkumbini, which now seperates the Ghegs from the Tosks. The same geographer states that Epirots were also called Pelasgians. The Pelasgian Zeus, whose memory survives even today in the appellation of God as "Zot" by the modern Albanians, was worshiped at Dodona, where the most famous oracle of ancient times was situated. According to Herodotus the neighborhood of the sanctuary was called Pelasgia.

3) Molossians, which are Greek tribes? hmmm with all respect that is not true. I don't want to go and argue for that right now.Everyone has their resources.

I would really preciate if Greeks won't delete anything in Albania article nor do I go and delete stuff in Greek articles.

p.s. consider yourself warned by Tsourkpk. Maybe you will be banned for vandalism ;).You have deleted & use vandalism in Albania article so what side are u on?--Taulant23 16:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

To Taulant23:

1) Dodona is located a good 50 km from the albanian border and has nothing to do with albania. I am glad to see you removed it from the article

2) The whole section on the Pelasgians is badly written and tries to imply that they are somehow connected to Albanians. There is simply NO reliable scientific evidence this is the case. The evidence on the Pelasgians is very limited and we must be *very* careful about mentioning them. Misplaced Pages has a separate entry for Pelasgians and there is no need to include them here. The only reason to include them here is for nationalistic reasons. Furthermore, the fact that some authors refer to them as "barbarians" does not necessarily imply they are non-greek. The Pelasgians have been misused by nationalists to make territorial claims against Greece in the past so I hope you can understand why Greek people are sensitive to their mention here. There is also no evidence to support that the Pelasgians are related to the Illyrians. And finally, it is even doubtful that the Albanians are descended from the Illyrians, for numerous reason that are very well explained in the wikipedia article Origin of the Albanians. While Ghegs do happen to live in the area inhabited by the Illyrians, as the article points out it is likely that the Albanian language is descended from Dacian and not Illyrian. The entire article could be fine without the section on the Pelasgians. I feel their inclusion here implies that they are connected to Albanians, which is nationalist POV. And who is this linguist Hahn you mention? I haven't found any mention of him in the entire Misplaced Pages. Finally, even if it is true that the Pelasgians built the walls of Athens, this belongs in the article on the Pelasgians, not the article on Albania. I hope you can understand that is why I want this sentence removed.

3) The Molossians and Chaonians are Epirot tribes. Epirots were ancient Greek people according to numerous sources Apollodorus, Strabo, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Frontinus, Pausanias, Ptolemy, Cassius Dio and Eutropius. The Chaonians were the northernmost Epirot tribes and their territory stretched as far north as the bay of Vlore. Since that is in Albania, I think it is worth mentioning here. I can't understand why you keep removing that sentence. We are talking about ancient people here, not modern people such as the Tosks, so this does not imply territorial claims on Albania. And while it is true that Tosks live in the areas occupied by the Chaonians, this does not mean that Tosks are descended from Epirots, although there has been a lot of intermarriage between Tosks and Eprirot Greeks over the centuries. Since my sentence on the Chaonians contains sourced material, I ask that you not remove it.

Lastly, it is not my intention to become involved in edit wars and much less to vandalize the Albania page. I want our peoples to be friends, and I hope Albania can join the EU someday. However, I am very protective of Greece's ancient heritage and i am very sensitive to seeing it appropriated by Albanian and Slav nationalists, which has regrettably occured in the past. No hard feelings :)

Walls of Athens? wtf?

What do the Pelasgians and the walls of Athens have ANYTHING to do with albania? Why is this mentioned in the article? Overall this is a very badly written article filled with nationalist POV crap. As there is absolutely not a shred of evidence linking the Pelasgians (and the Illyrians for that matter) to modern-day Albania, I propose removing the sentence on the walls of Athens from this article.

Dodona

Why is the sanctuary of Dodona mentioned in this article? This is one of of the oldest and most significant ancient Greek sanctuaries and is located in Greece, not Albania. It has no place in this article and I have therefore removed the sentence. ^^^^tsourkpk

Vandalism in History section

1st 2 paragraphs in history section are largely about oral sex as of 2007-04-20. I'm thinking this is incorrect. Or at least is incorrectly restricted to Albania. I'd remove the content myself, but it seems as if content had been overwritten with this content... is it possible to revert to previous content if so?

~~ In the section discuss the Roman and Byzantine Era - there is a mention of Philip and Alexander the Great of Macedon. This is during the Hellenistic Era and not the Roman or Byzantine Era. I tried correcting this, but someone removed it. I correct it again. by ApplesnPeaches ~~

Demographics

Many ethnic Albanians also live in the bordering countries of Serbia and Montenegro (around 1,850,000; of that, around 1,800,000 in Serbia, around 1,700,000 in its province called Kosovo and around 50,000 in Montenegro) and the Republic of Macedonia (around 500,000) although a lot of Albanians believe that the number might be higher. Also a small number of ethnic Albanians live in Greece which are called Çam or Cham. Claims over Çam numbers have ranged from 20,000 to over 200,000 but are believed to be understated because Athens has not considered the local Albanians to be a separate ethnic group.

Without prejudice to the validity of the information above, it seems to be irrelevant, because the article is about Albania (the country) rather than the Albanian people in general. I therefore propose moving the extract to some more appropriate entry. Doing so would produce a more focussed text, similar to the ones about the demographics of the United Kingdom, Germany or Russia. Conversely, if the information remains as is, it might be argued that the article promotes irredentist ideology by blurring the distinction between country and nation. For all the reasons above I plan to remove those sentences on May 21st, unless there are any convincing counter-arguments. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where this information might be more usefully presented. TheArchon 11:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

So what ever happened to that? The article on Albanians seems like a well-developed article, and a good place for the information you think should be deleted/moved (if it's not already there). I was only going to make a note on this talk page about the Çam, since a people who used to live in Greece would seem to have nothing to do with the current demographics of Albania, but you rightly point out that neither does anyone else not living in Albania.--Rschmertz 06:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I would go along with that- this section belongs elsewhere as it's not strictly about the people within Albania. I think this is covered already in the Albanians article. Has anybody got a good argument for retaining it, or is there anywhere else it might better fit? Otherwise I agree with the previous two users that this should be removed.Zagubov 10:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I got rid of the Çam bit. I didn't get rid of the Serbia/Greece/etc. part (not bold enough?) but it's not too long to be distracting. I think the part I left in about where Albanians are currently emigrating to is somehow relevant, however. --Rschmertz 06:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Section length and contents

I am curious to read from what sources the history part is written.Especially the one stating that the Albanian fascists helped the Italians against the Greek and after helped the Germans (against who?) and no mention of the Albanians having faught against the Turks for the independence of Greece or for liberating Yugoslavia . I hided a part of it but it is still there. Nervi modest 19:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that the history section in this article should be a bit longer to get the information a bit more specific and accurate. For instance, as to the World War II, Italian occupation is mentioned but the German occupation isn't, and this tends to imply that there was no other occupation. Or from the first paragraph you get the impression that there never was any Albanian rule betweem Ancient times and 1912, but what about Scanderbeg?.

Go for it if you want. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll Make a try. Though I don't feel myself competent enough even after reading the history articles about Albania Misplaced Pages currently contains. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am just wondering whether this would make the article too long. But them maybe the list of districts and the list of holidays could be moved to another place.

And I also think that the most important (or all) cities should be mentioned right in the article because they are of primary interest, not the districts. Andres 19:24, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I put the holiday table in there because it seemed to be part of a template (lots of countries have it), so I would let that stay on the main page. I have also seen Districts/Counties/Whatever on the front page. There is a link to the cities so I don't think that is much of an issue. I just want it to be consistent with the other country pages. Dori 23:07, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I see your point. I checked some other country articles. Many of them contain the holidays section, some don't. The article about the United States has it in the article Culture of the United States. It is certainly useful but it need not be in the main article. Anyway, this is not that important, and the template is not that uniform. Besides, the article about United Kingdom does not list the administrative divisions lower than countries and has instead separate articles for the lists. So there are options here too. (In the case of the United States the list of States is natural. But this does not mean that an equivalent of it is as natural for every other country. My point is only that if we find it better, we can modify the "template".

It's true that we cannot deviate much from the overall conventions of country articles but we can question the conventions and suggest changes. There are things that strike me as really strange. The amount of information about history and geography is reduced to nearly nil, and long detailed tables are longer than those fundamental topics. Of course, this is just my personal opinion. Andres 19:52, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Go for it if you want as I say. I just would like the holidays in the main article. The US has a few more holidays so that's maybe why they put it there. Dori 20:36, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am not going to touch the tables, just extending the History and Geography sections. Andres 05:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I just noticed that there are some cities mentioned in the Geography section, you might add there any other cities you think should be mentioned. Dori

OK, Ill have a look.

Dori, Andres, you might want to take a look at WikiProject Countries. The template, which we try to apply to all countries is specified there. The length of the individual sections is not exactly determined, but it shouldn't be more than, say, two or three paragraphs. Looking at the Albania article, especially politics and geography could use some more information. If there are inaccuracies in the other texts: go ahead and edit them of course. But when you have to go into too much detail, just edit the subarticles.

All that is just for your consideration of course, you can just "be bold". Jeronimo 06:51, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is wrong!

In the Ottoman Rule part it says that Albanians managed to keep their culture and religion. Actually the Ottoman Empire never forced anybody to become a Muslim. The government policy was this. Mehmet II gave an order which would let all minorities to live according to their beliefs. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Response to the above comment. Hmm, let me think. So the Albanians fought tooth and nail against the Ottoman Turks in the middle ages only to "peacefully" convert later into the muslim faith??? Actually Albanians converted gradually, and every conversion was forced either physically or economically. It always happened after a war. After Skanderbeg died, after the Turkish-Russo war, etc. JohnStovec--Johnstovec 00:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Albanians were forced to become muslims by turks. Stop with this muslim propaganda!

Etymology of the name

The word Albania in albanian "Shqiperia" means the land of the eagle which is also realated to the flag which is a two headed eagle.

It could be I suppose. I guess it's an eagle or the egg problem :) Did the word shqipe first signify the language or the bird? The most used version is the one about the eagle (as enhanced by the flag), so that is what I used. Also, before being called Shqipëria, Albania was called Arbëria (tosk) or Arbënia (gheg) and Albanians were called Arbër (note the Albanians that migrated to southern Italy call themselved Arbëresh). I would guess the word for the eagle existed before the name change, which is why the first explanation is more likely in my opinion. --Dori 14:59, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Scientific etymologies, as a rule, are hypotheses, though of different degrees of probability. And as to the folk etymologies, there is no question of truth. It's a fact that for modern Albanians, Shqipëria means 'The Land of Eagles'. But that does not mean that the word sghiptar (which I think is older than the name of the land) is etymologically related to the name of the bird. I think that probably both originally existed apart, and then became to be associated.

Now, the problem is that when we say what Shqipëria means then this is ambiguous between the etymological meaning and the cultural meaning for modern Albanians. For instance, I would take it for the etymological meaning if I were ignorant of the problem.

I think there should be an article apart about the names of Albania or even for each name apart. Andres 16:56, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the name of the bird and the name of the language just happened to be the same and they were not derived from the same word? I would think that the most likely answer is that the name for the bird came from some language (Albanian or otherwise), Albanians came to be associated with the bird (maybe the name of some tribe), and then the language was subsequently associated with the bird. I don't know the technical words as this no where near my field of expertise, but logically it makes sense to me. --Dori 17:23, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I mean that originally the words shqiptar and others just happened to have the same sound as the word for the eagle, and later on Albanians "found a hidden meaning" in this similarity. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Everything is possible, it just seems unlikely to me that the two are not originally related. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The authors of the Albanian history volume that I have seem to believe that the name probably derived from the adverb shqip which means to speak clearly, openly, bluntly and predating all other forms, and that the change in the name happened around the end of the 18th century. No mention is made of the word for eagle. --Dori 18:37, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

What change happened in the 18th century?

Arbëria/Arbër started dropping from usage and being replaced with Shqipëria/Shqipëtar. --Dori 22:38, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It is really surprising that the change occurred that late. Are there any further details? I suppose that in oral use it could be much earlier. Andres 05:53, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This etymology (that is, whence the name comes) is plausible also this is typical way how ethnonyms (names of peoples) arise. The ethnos or nation is described as people who speak clearly, that is in the language we can ubderstand. Andres 22:30, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think a small section on the different names would be worthwhile, in particular to explain the difference between the "national" and "international" names. There's some info on Albania on Illyria, but I'm unsure how to incorporate this here.

I always assumed the name evolved from Epirus. Shqiperus>>Epirus ..sp and ep are synomous in many languanges. --Ciriii 22:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Coat of arms

Has the coat of arms of Albania been changed? Andres 05:35, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it has. The state emblem I believe is a bit similar, but I have not seen the image posted anywhere. I made the coat of arms, and I am not an artist so it is a bit stretched, but I think it is more accurate. I could be wrong though. Dori | Talk 06:22, Jan 18, 2004 (UTC)

The Skanderbeg helmet has been on the emblem earlier. See . I have no confirmation either for a new emblem, but it is still possible it has been changed recently. Andres 07:10, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I got the image from the Albanian Ministry of Information (http://mininf.gov.al/). Also, this is the coat of arms mentioned in the Constitution of Albania. Also, nation's flags and coat of arms aren't copyrighted they are public domain. I did put the link on the image and where it came from. Scythian99

The site is not coming up for me right now, but I know that it is the ministry of information. Does it specifically say that it is the coat of arms and not some other emblem? The reason I asked for the site and copyright is that the Albanian law is even more strict than the American or European ones (that's the impression I have gotten). Also, most gov't sites of Albania reserve all the rights to all their material (using I see that it says "Copyright (c) 2002 - Keshilli i Ministrave i Republikes se Shqiperise - Departamenti i Informacionit"). I think if the material is used in a court case or something similar it becomes public domain, but I am not sure. Do you know for sure that they are in public domain? thanks, Dori | Talk 21:33, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

The state emblem is a bit similar if you look here: , but I don't know if that's the same as the coat of arms of a country. Dori | Talk 21:35, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to bunnerabb, we have this , but I have not found an official government source yet. Dori | Talk 21:47, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

That is interesting how the skanderbeg crown is in the shield and not on top of it from the other government site. It seems we have a mystery on our hands! I do know that I have seen some variation on the theme. I thought I read somewhere on wikipedia that government emblems were public domain, as with the information for countries from that CIA online source. Also, I have seen the crowned shield on recent Albanian paper money, 1,000 Leke from about 10 years ago, with swords too. Scythian99

Since you are not sure, I think I will revert. The earlier version is more likely to be the coat of arms, and it is GFDL'ed (since it's based on the CIA public domain image). Dori | Talk 04:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Here is what the Albanian constitution constitution says about the coat of arms: "The seal of the Republic of Albania presents a red shield with a black, two-headed eagle in the center. At the top of the shield, in gold color, is the helmet of Skanderbeg (1)." So maybe the Skanderbeg crown is on the arms and not on top? I will try to draw a new one, maybe you should try?  :) Scythian99 | Talk

Is the state emblem the same thing as the coat of arms? Dori | Talk 17:13, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Coat of arms is taken from heraldry since it started as individuals or families having coat of arms. Many state emblems have their roots in heraldry and use the rules of heraldry in their creation. Coat of arms and state emblem are often used interchangeably although some country's coats of arms aren't really coat of arms. What do you think of my addition of the crown on your shield. Maybe you can do a better job?  :) Scythian99 | Talk

I made a different one. I think it looks better. Dori | Talk 21:28, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC)

Urra! Urra! Great job Dori! You have many talents! It looks great. Scythian99 | Talk

Counties

The reversion of my listing of Counties is inconsistent.

The list of 36 Districts is presented on the Albania page within the Districts section as well as being under a prominent link Main article: Districts of Albania

The list of Counties however is merely referred to in the body of the text as counties

Yet when I attempt to address the inconsistency by adding the 12 Counties which are not listed I am swiftly reverted because the list already exists under the counties link.

For Consistency, either an additional section should be added to the Albania page entitled 'Counties' with a listing of the counties, or the list of Districts under the Districts section should be removed and the following links be shown:-

Main article:

• Districts of Albania
• Counties of Albania

--JohnArmagh 19:58, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The districts are somewhat more important than the counties, which is why I have left them there, but I will try to emphasize the counties a bit more. Dori | Talk 02:15, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

I think therefore that we have arrived at a reasonable and suitable compromise on the issue.

regards --JohnArmagh 06:01, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what happened since you all were editing this page about two years ago, but before i edited this section today, it only had one sentence about prefectures. Slightly odd, in my opinion since all the other articles are labeled as counties. I added an image to help with clarity but that will only do so much. this is definitely a section needing revamped. b_cubed 16:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

anonymous modification

Albania lays in what in ancient times was called Illyricum. Albanians are the oldest people in Europe. Considered a mistery by many westeners Albania is a historian's dream.

Albanians are the oldest people in Balkans. Albanians are descent to Illyrians theirfore to the Pellasgians. Illyrian tribes are mentioned in Homeros poems. Many scholars have agreed with this, such scholars are Edwin E. Jacques and Konstantin Kristoforidhi, to name a few. --Albanau 17:35, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence to link modern albanians to the ancient illyrians. Nationalist nonsense of the type "we are the oldest race on earth bla bla bla". we've heard it all before. get some evidence before you say things like that (might be a little difficult, considering it DOESN'T EXIST). 64.121.193.126 09:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)ptsourkas

What about the Cretans (Minoans) about 2000-3000 b.C.?

what about them? are the "albanian" as well? LOL

bla bla bla you know nothing about the history, there are many evidences about pelasgic origine of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin , if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other Europian Languages English included, and this my friend it is not nationalism but the truth which of course doesn't suite to some like you . Dodona

your knowledge of history is as bad as your english. The "scholars" you name are nationalistic hacks, and it seems like you are too. 24.23.131.247 01:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)tsourkpk

Suggest 12 possible wiki links for Albania.

An automated Misplaced Pages link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Albania article:

• Can link national flag: ...as ''Land of the Eagles'', hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem. The derivation of the name '''Albania''' is of... (link to section)
• Can link Indo-European language: ...of Albania]]'' ]ns arise as a people speaking an Indo-European language around ]. The Illyrian culture was influenced by ... (link to section)
• Can link Greek culture: ...und ]. The Illyrian culture was influenced by the Greek culture (mainly the south Illyrian tribes). Albania being also the ... (link to section)
• Can link Byzantine Empire: ...es. After being conquered by a number of nations mainly the Byzantine Empire, it became a part of the ] in ] aft... (link to section)
• Can link Gjergj Kastrioti: ... ] after years of resistance under the leadership of Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, the Albanian National Hero.... (link to section)
• Can link World War II: ...t was occupied by ]. The communists took over after World War II, in November 1944, under the leader of the resistence, [[En... (link to section)
• Can link communist state: ...r the death of Hoxha, Albania was an extremely isolationist communist state, with little contact even with the other communist states. ... (link to section)
• Can link organized crime: ...despread corruption, a dilapidated infrastructure, powerful organized crime networks with links to high government officials, and disru... (link to section)
• Can link council of ministers: ...n using proportional system. The president is assisted by a council of ministers, which is appointed by the president.... (link to section)
• Can link unemployment rate: ...d to be working abroad. The country has to deal with a high unemployment rate, corruption up to high government levels and organised crim... (link to section)
• Can link financial aid: ...from Greece and Italy. The money for imports comes from the financial aid and from the money that ]s working abroad bring t... (link to section)
• Can link fanaticism: ...ther main religions in Albania, though in Albania religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem with people from different... (link to section)

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Origin of the name

"The name of Albania prior to the Turkish invasion was "Arbëria," the Albanian dialect Gheg became involved and later became Arbania, for example the Tosk word for voice is Zëri and the Gheg word for voice is Zani, anyway it became later changed to Albania. The Arbëresh community who live in Italy still speak the old style of Albanian and still call their homeland Arbëria."

I think this part of the section on the 'Origin and history of the name' Albania needs to be deleted or at least revised, because there's no historical evidence that coroborates this theory, at least not in the 'External Links' section of the article.

Also, if Arbëria really was the name of Albania before the Turkish invasion, then why did it change to Shqiperia? And what were they called before being called Shqiptar? I think these are important questions that need to be addressed by this article.

Well, I can answer to all of your question but have become bored after discussing this with many. If you know swedish or know someone who knows swedish, let them translate this for you Origin and history of the name Albania (Articel at Swe Wiki) their I give information based on facts and what Arb/Alb realy means and when it became used among albanians and if Illyria still was used among some klans, and also when they start to use the word Shkipënia/Shqiperia. The articel answer to all this questions. User:Albanau

It's nice of you to have given information is swedish, how about in english so the english speaking people can understand.

Anti-Hoxha Propaganda

I know Enver Hoxha had many alleged problems with Human Rights, but I might also note that the economy of Albania was socialist. Unemployment, poverty, and starvation were illiminated. Hoxha didn't severe relations with the USSR for "his own interest", he did because the USSR went back to capitalism in his opinioin. It seems some of this is just stating what has been said about Hoxha, but a lot of it seems to be corporate/capitalist propaganda. I offically dispute the nuetrality of this article....

This in not propaganda. Hoxha tried to assert maximum control over its citizens by having them on a short leash. If thousands of unjustifiably dead are not human rights violations, I don't know what is.

Motto

What does the motto mean? We need to provide an English translation. – Kaihsu 14:23, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)

Spam removal

Sorry, I flubbed the edit summary. Please see User talk:66.66.69.79 for the history behind this particular bit of spam and my removal of it.  — Saxifrage | ☎ 19:07, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Albanians - Hellenes and autohthony.

No need to mention this. The very fact that he does not seem to have a signature or an account tells millions Tpilkati 06:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

2:Also, this whole conversation is void, since there is no scientifically viable way to prove autochtony, or any value in proving it (except nationalist bragging rights)--Jsone 4 July 2005 14:59 (UTC)

Dear Jsone,

U wrote: "Well genetic research shows common blood within Greeks and Albanians." Did u notice that the populations of the samples where too small? What if the most of the "Albanian sample" was from southern Albania (our northern Epirus)?

The sample comes from Albanians, whether from southern or northern Albania. And most likely the samples were taken from the state capitol, Tirana. Where there is the heaviest concentration of Albs. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

-There is the big Greek minority of Albania!- Moreover there are olso Greek Orthodox Albs so mixed with Greeks that u cant say if they are Albs or not! Like Gegides.Albs live there about 9 centuries, we have come together anyway.

There it stated Albanians, not Greeks. If the people were Greeks, then they would not be tested.

Your second statement is a wrongful assumption, the "inter-mixing" process has not occured until some small times during communism, which failed. And Northern Epirus is only a small part of Albania on top of that it is not too concentrated and difficult to access. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

For excample for Albanians where only 51 people and for the Hellenes only 76!! I believe that the numbers are not big enought to proove any serius theory..

Anyone can choose up to 1,000 people from Greece or Albania and proove anything!

To do 1000 DNA tests takes time and money...

If u are staying in Greece u would know what i mean.If not,(a) read history,(b) then count how many invadors came over Greece and finally (c) see their chromosoms on our blood! :)

Im surprised at this, lol. Anyway, generally, it is agreed that Greeks of today seem to match largely with the look of ancient Greeks. Much more of this can be followed http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/ here].

I am patriot, not a nationalist as u said. I am happy that the survey u link, shows that the Greeks have almost all the kinds of polymorfismos in a prety good percent each every one of them!

The polymorphisms are not new. These are from the Neolithic age. Long before Greek identity or Hellenism was even coming together. Tpilkati 06:17, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

That means that we have come together with many other nations.Notice that after the mixing, the new generation takes (most of the times) the very good characteristics of both sides. Be happy because we are blessed!

Read the above.

Agaphte,Iasona den eimai anonymos onomazomai Yorgios Mantikos kai mhn provaineis se potapous xaraktirismous, ean kai efoson mporeis na syzhtas, tote kanto.

                                                                            Eycharisto.

Yorgos Mantikos

"Disambiguation notice"

Why is there a paragraph-long disambiguation notice for this article? Everything beyond "Albania was also the name of an ancient country in the Eastern Caucasus, now mostly covered by Azerbaijan. – see Caucasian Albania" seems unnecessary. Evil Monkey∴Hello July 5, 2005 08:07 (UTC)

odd revert

If User:Getoar really thinks it necessary to revert to a three-week-old version of the article, without an edit summary, some explanation here is necessary. It would also be polite to replace the minor and entirely uncontroversial changes (for example the interwiki links and the {{Albania}} template). In the meantime I have rolled back the edit. —Charles P. (Mirv) 05:15, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania

"Albania was also the name of an unrelated ancient state in the Caucasus – see Caucasian Albania"- This sentance has no relevance to this article and i removed. It is a Serbian propaganda intended to make readers believe that somohow Albanians are related to Caucasian Albania. I suggest that no one reverts this without an explantions.--Ferick 06:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted it, and the explanation is that it's a disambiguation between two similar terms - a standard procedure on Misplaced Pages. It certainly isn't Serbian propaganda. -- ChrisO 08:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed a Serbian propaganda. The first thing you see when you open Albania’s page is that phrase, and then latter on there is talk about how some historians believe that Albanians came from that region. What impression do you think this will have on someone who doesn't know anything about Albania? I don't want to revert it back, but you will have to decide whether you want to remove the reference in the body or this sentence. If you just want to remove the reference in the body, I will accept the sentence remaining where it is now. --Ferick 03:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed etymology and copy-vio for now

See Origin and history of the name Albania. What to do in this Albania article will be figured out, but that mass of text had to go as it was. Alexander 007 15:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone deletesd the Gorani from the article. Return them, please. HolyRomanEmperor 19:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Demographics/"optimal solution"

From the article, "Religious fanaticism has never been a serious problem, with people from different religions living in peace and even getting married although this was not considered to be an optimal solution." Who considered it to not to be an optimal solution? 04:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jews

How many Jews are living in Albania?

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Eskimos

How many Eskimos are living in Albania?

• I guess it is a new way of propaganda. Little one-sided datas were put into the different parts of the article. It is a part of the game of politics. On the other hand, with such a powerless economy and an average HDI, Albania will enter to the EU. Politics is very important my friend... With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Clans among the Tosks

I've been reading Noel Malcolm's book Kosovo: A Short History, and he talks at length about the Geg highland clans of the north, but never says anything about any clans among the Tosks. Now that itself is fairly understandable, but I've never heard of any clan system amongst the Tosks, period. Are there any clans left, or were they swept aside by the Ottoman feudal system that was implemented in the more accessible areas of the south? If there are any, do they follow the Canon of Lek?(SomeAlbanianDude)

Many incorrect historical data, I explain tomorow...

I really don't care about the suppossed inaccuracy about Noel Malcolm's book right now. I just wanna know whether Tosks have a clan structure similar to the Gegs or not. (SomeAlbanianDude)

Religion

From Wiki "Islam is a monotheistic religion based upon the Qur'an, which adherents believe was sent by God through Muhammad." No 70% of Albanians belive this. Is it possible that no percentage of Albanians is atheist, at a time when almost two generations were raised without religion ? Same would be probably true for other religions. If you see France, a poll it's included, where if I remember correct 60% or more did not even belive in a God? Can someone convincibly express this? --69.119.50.159 18:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)LIO

I would also add that the percentages were wrong for the major religious groups. I checked BBC World Profiles and the CIA Worldfactbook. Both had Islam as the majority, CIA was "70%". I don't know where someone got 5% were Muslims? I changed it. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/al.html#People

MPA 9/26/06

Yes, your figures are in accordance with the CIA factbook, and presumably also with the BBC source, but these numbers are in stark contrast to the leading statement in the paragraph that most Albanians are non-religious, and your response seems like you didn't even really read what you were responding to. I would indeed like to know where the 5% number came from -- seems like a lowball for a country I was always taught was predominantly Muslim -- but I don't put a lot of faith in the CIA numbers which imply that absolutely everybody has a religion. --Rschmertz 20:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Before you put so much stock in the CIA, I suggest that you recall that these are the same people who needed 6 days to varify N. Korean missle test (when they buy state of the art equipement so they should need more than 24 hrs.). Point is this - I suggest you go Albania and see how many of them live according to the Quran, Bible, or Torah. Then come back. Until try not to place so much stock in research that argues Albania was muslim for the past 50 years, because it under communist rule and religion was banned so how could have religious people then at the time, yet the CIA factbook still argued the point, Rschmertz. Period.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.97.98.40 (talk) 14:28, October 20, 2006

I've added emphasis to my previous post, apparently needed. Thanks for responding. We would love new, objective and accurate data for the religions of Albania, but we can't accept numbers based on someone going to the country and "seeing how many of them live according to the Quran, Bible, or Torah." If the numbers are your personal estimates, we simply can't accept them. If they are from a reputable source, then we will welcome them, but we need a citation for the source. Meanwhile, if the CIA numbers are all we have, then we (meaning probably I) will have to edit the section to make it clear that these are old estimates and that current, reliable data is not available. --Rschmertz 00:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

One credible book is Albanian Identities: Myth and History by Peter Siani-Davies (editor)(2002).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.97.98.40 (talk) 00:02, October 21, 2006

Do you have a copy of this book? Can you post a relevant quote here that we can take a look at, that cites the breakdown by religion and, ideally, how he came up with these numbers? This is the difficulty with using books as a source: you sort of have to trust what someone else says is in the book, unless you want to go to the library yourself and see if they have the book so you can verify that that's what the book says (and that the book seems credible). --Rschmertz 05:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

A little time would be nice. thanks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.97.98.40 (talk) 19:05, October 25, 2006

Motto

The motto currently listed is "Albanians place their faith in Albania". It used to read "Free and strong". Which one is correct? The current listing was added six weeks ago be anonymous user. I know nothing on the subject, but it seemed dubious. Pruneau 23:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This sounds like a Hoxha quote: "The religion of Albania is Albanianism," or something like that - not something a democratic government would want around, even if it ever was the national motto. "Free and strong" is more likely to be the right one. Alr 04:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The world Albania does not actually mean Land of the Eagles, even though it is popular to think so. It actually means "land of clear speech"

that is not true. Th word Albanian means "Land of the Eagles". learn little Albanain first and than come back and discuss with us.

Yeah what is this person saying? "Shqiperija" comes from "shqiponje" (eagle).UberCryxic 19:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

To come back to the motto: is Free and strong even correct? I could find no reference apart from wikipedia and mirror sites. I don't speak a word of Albanian, but my guess is that the Albanian Misplaced Pages says that it doesn't have a motto ("Moto Kombëtare: s´ka"). It seems that it was added by a vandal and that only half the edit got reverted. Does anyone know more about this? Pruneau 09:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the Albanian WP, I have to agree. I made sure I checked the Albanian article on Romania (which definately doesn't have a motto) to make sure. Must have been one sneaky vandal...Alr 16:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Albanian municipalities/prefectures

Could somebody with good knowledge of the Albanian administrative subdivisions please verify the content of the following articles: Counties of Albania and List of municipalities of Albania? Are municipalities the same as counties/prefectures? Is there any redundancy of information between the two articles? I need to know which one is adequate to be placed in Lists of municipalities. Thank you.--Húsönd 15:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Other languages

Current note on language under "Demographics" reads something like "many Albanians are also fluent in English, Greek, Italian". Was changed to "many also speak Italian" which raised the question in my mind: How many Albanians are there who speak a mother language other than Albanian? Surely this is more relevant to Demographics than how many people have studied English in university. Is there a Greek community in Albania, for example? Shouldn't we at a minimum note that some of these languages (certainly English) are second languages learned at school? --Rschmertz 22:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no statistics, but I grew up in Albania and my personal impression is that more people speak Italian as a second language than anything else, certainly far more than both English and Greek combined. Even I could understand Italian-language television because my family watched it so much. There is some Greek influence in the south of the country, but I'm not sure to what extent the Greek language is spoken there. As for what's learned at school, I would suppose English would be the most popular, but Turkish is up there as well.UberCryxic 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The Greek speaking population currently living in Albania is under dispute by both Greeks and Albanians. If such figures are to be added to this article I would suggest that citations from both sides of the argument are included. --Toni78 05:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Aboriginal Discoveries, Pelgasians, and unitedalbanian.com

I've always felt there was something amiss with the sections covering the earlier parts of "Albanian" history. And after seeing the repeated creation of links by various IP addresses to http://unitedalbanian.com/, and visiting said website, and noticing identical text, I started to dig into when all that text got added. Well, I found where it got added -- everything covering "Albanian" history prior to Roman rule: here. You might take a look at the other contributions of this IP address user; rather a mixed bag with regard to usefulness, but obviously strongly nationalistic.

Anyway, the identical text presents a problem. I don't know which way the copying went, but given the fact that it was all added to WP in one chunk, and that unitedalbanian.com has texts on other periods and subjects that do not seem to appear in Misplaced Pages, I think the copying probably went from UA.com to WP, in which case it could be a copyright violation. (If the copying went from WP to UA, then there should be no links to the UA site in this article, of course). Add to that the question of whether it's really appropriate to talk about Stone Age and Bronze Age man in an article about a modern-day country, and... we have a lot to think about, I guess :-) Any thoughts on these sections? --Rschmertz 06:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Right now they are a big problem because they are too generic. They belong in a human history article, not an Albanian history article. If they can somehow be more closely tied to Albania or surrounding regions, then they can stay. Otherwise they either need to be deleted or need heavy modification.UberCryxic 06:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I am the webmaster of UnitedAlbanian.com. The text you speak of (Aboriginals to Middle Ages) is original and copyrighted by UnitedAlbanian.com. I do not know who copied such information from my site to Misplaced Pages. I have also not been asked for premission. What troubled me more was that there were no reference links to my site, even though the content was copied word for word. I had to add reference links myself. Even though I do not condone such actions without an author's premission, I don't mind it if such content remains on Misplaced Pages. In the future, contact the website if you want to borrow content, and please reference! If you want to validate this post, contact me through the website. Thanks. --68.236.27.153 22:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for contacting the Talk page. We serious Wikipedians don't condone this sort of copying from other pages either, but as editing is open to anybody, this sort of thing may be done by novices who disregard copyright or who don't understand their laws or Misplaced Pages policy. Thank you for your (after-the-fact!) permission for the material to remain. If we keep it, we will ensure that unitedalbanian.com is referenced for those sections. We prefer not to have copy-and-pasted materials, though, so we may end up deleting it and using UA as a general source.

It's hard to promise anything like this, though, as who knows if I'll still be doing this six months from now :-/ --Rschmertz 22:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It is nothing damaging really as I too support the free flow of information; I only was a little surprised :). Thanks for acknowledging on this talk page the unreferenced additions in the first place though! I appreciate it.--68.236.27.153 23:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Albania borders: Serbia? Kosovo?

There is a question of how/whether we should describe the fact that Albania borders Kosovo, and thus Serbia. The three possibilities I'm aware of are: it borders Serbia; it borders Kosovo; and it borders the Serbian province of Kosovo.

Some use the argument that, since we simply say that the U.S. borders Canada, rather than enumerating the provinces it borders (true enough, in a comparable context), that we should do the same with Serbia. However, the reason we don't get so specific/detailed in cases such as the U.S. and Canada or most others is because it is simply not interesting or particularly significant. However, the bordering with Kosovo is very interesting for several reasons. For starters, it is the only province of Serbia that borders Albania. As Kosovo has become very well-known on the world stage, it is very useful to know that this Albanian-majority region is contiguous with Albania. Finally, Serbia at this time does not have administrative control over Kosovo, so effectively there is no contiguity with the geographical region controlled by Belgrade.

To simply say that Albania borders Serbia, then, is to effectively sweep some very encyclopedically important information under the rug, ostensibly in the name of consistency. Consistency does not trump informativeness and usefulness, and neither, I hope, does political sensitivity. --Rschmertz 07:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It borders the Serbian province of Kosovo <-- the information is presented in an unbiased and factual manner.--estavisti 01:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is eliminating Serbia's significance here. Kosovo is still a Serbian province. That's why we're not saying, "bordered by Kosovo to the northeast," but by "Serbian province..."UberCryxic 21:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Can Someone tell me

Regarding the article Albania.

Someone keeps deleting a reference on the external links to the website www.TheAlbanians.com This website is one of the best albanian websites and it is in English. Who is deleting the link and why? Is this coming from a competitive site??? Thanks in Advance.

Vasil Gjika. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VasilGjika (talk • contribs) 03:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

adding Albanian Movie Database  ?

What you guys think in adding the Albanian Movie Database? It realy helps, albanian filmmakers, and other filmmakers that are interested in the Albanian Movie Database. This is the first Albanian Movie Database. This will help lots of students in Albania from the film school, and outside Albania. It will even help the Tirana Film Festival.

Misplaced Pages link: Albanian Movie Database

outside link :

I have talked with some filmmakers in california and this website has more information then IMDB has for albanian film. nad don forget Albania should be proud not lots of countrys in the world have a film database....

Its USA, HONG KONG, INDIA, Albania.

see not alot. This statistics where made before the database was completed.

YOu guys do the rest. I did my part. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Niklogoreci (talk • contribs) 20:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Berisha section

Here's some recently-added material I'm about to delete. It's not necessarily bad, it just needs to be better integrated with the section that immediately followed it.

===Sali Berisha - The First Democratic Albanian Government===

Sali Berisha was the first post-communist president elected. He, himself a doctor to the highest ranked communists, had been able to make a great turn and embrace the democracies of the Western world. Accused of setting up pyramid schemes, the comunist-driven gangs of southern Albania rose against him in 1997. 2000 people died in southern Albania that year. In order to avoid bloodshed, Berisha resigned. The democrats, politicaly the succesors of the Communist Party, took power again and held it for 8 years. But Berisha lead another assault against the left. He is now in power and serves as the Prime Minister of

Albania

--Rschmertz 04:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There are some serious flows in the above section about Berisha. It's ambiguous and in many cases not correct and it should not be included in any part of this article. Especially the description of the events in 1997 has misleading statements.

First, Berisha did not resign. He was forced out of power. He himself considered the parliament elected after he lost his position as outlaw and a parliament brought to power by force. Indeed he didn't recognize the successive parliament until several years later.

Second, Berisha did not resign to avoid bloodshed during the confrontation of the army and with the "communist-gangs". It is well known that he already gave to the army the order of entering by force in several cities like Vlora etc. in which he had lost control. This would have caused much more bloodshed. The army just refused to do it and deserted. He left the presidential residence only after the institutions he controlled collapsed completely (police, teachers etc. did not go anymore to work, army refused to follow his orders) and he had no kind of protection except a handful bodyguards.

Third, it's true that there were gangs organized and directed from the opposition however they were not communist or had no communist ideology leading them and they played a minor role compared to the chaos that resulted from the uncontrolled anger of the population from the collapse of the financial pyramid schemes.

The article above is bad so don't include it anywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.39.158.121 (talk • contribs) 07:48, February 9, 2007.

Corfu Channel Incident

I don't see how this Corfu Channel Incident has any real historical signifigance. This article should be an overview of Albanian history (i.e., what types of governments, demographic changes, border changes, etc.), without going into so much detail. This writeup has too much detail to begin with, and, again, I think it has no place in the main article. So I am taking it out and moving it to this Corfu Channel subpage, because, hey, it is a good description of an event that probably belongs somewhere. --Rschmertz 03:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Reply: The incident was part of the reason for the historic tension and bad feelings between Albania and the Western powers, especially the United Kingdom. --Eastmain 22:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Poorly Written

This article is poorly written and is in need of a major revisioning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ctitiquer (talk • contribs) 21:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Do you have any suggetion if not please leave.The articul must define clearly the pelasgic origine of Albanians .There are many evidences about pelasgic origin of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin , if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted as well)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other European Languages English included. Dodona.Further references may be added with your requests.

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

• whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
• which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.

Aboriginal Discoveries

I deleted the entire section because it offered no information specific to Albania. Frankly, those two paragraphs could be equally at home in almost any Balkan country article. Bcody80 06:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Tourism

Does anyone know about the current tourism information in Albania and a breakdown to somewhere like Tirana. This would be significant to this page because Tourism is a major factor in any country Thedec 09:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Evgjit

Stop removing them as an ethnic group as they do not consider themselves to be Roma. Here are two sources with them:

http://www.mfa.gov.al/english/pdf_files/Komentet_anglisht.pdf (in detail)

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=als (brief)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azalea pomp (talk • contribs) 00:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Since I saw that I had a new message on my Talk page, I responded there. --Rschmertz 03:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Map of Illyria

Someone should change the map, as it is unhistorical and inaccurate, giving the incorrect impression that the whole of Epirus and the island of Corfu belonged to Illyria, which they didn't, as they were in fact Greek. Obviously the creator of this map is a fan of the false theory of Pan-Illyrism. Here are some historically accurate maps of Illyria and Epirus, showing the actual bordering between them:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/forvm/Articles/Maps/images/Map_Ancient_Greece_1900pix.jpg

http://www.crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif

http://www.e-grammes.gr/maps/650bc.gif

http://www.e-grammes.gr/maps/433.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/ancienthistory/1/7/7/9/2/Reference-Map-of-Ancient-Greece---Northern-Part..jpg

http://www.wbenjamin.org/nc/greekmap.jpg

http://www.philaprintshop.com/images/sdukancgrecn.jpg

http://www.culturalresources.com/images/maps/Gre5BCBg.jpg Helladios 19:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Good, the new map is accurate. Helladios 12:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Prehistory?

To start off with a section describing Albanians as cave people who eventually abandoned caves seems a bit uncyclopedic imo. The major flaw of Misplaced Pages is wasting the reader's time with tautological filler. I think it shows how old is this land,I don't see any problem hmm

Anon considerations...

...made on the article itself were reverted by me. If anyone knows the issue, please have a look. NikoSilver 16:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian Albania

Shouldn't there be a disambiguation link at the top of the page, pointing people looking for info on that othern Albania to it? 208.66.78.226 21:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

European Center of Crime

Can we mention this or the export of their dominant mafias across Europe, or is it politically incorrect? Reaper7 14:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Minorities

User:Taulant23's persistent removal of any reference to Albania's minorities needs to be addressed by an administrator. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:03, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Yes, this is politically incorrect, you corrected yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Minorities

Minorities,it needs to be put at the main article of Demographics. Thank you!

Why? Most of other articles about countries contain basic info about those countries' minorities.

ps. please sign your posts by typing ~~~~ in the end. Alæxis_¿question? 20:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Alexis, you are not even Albanian nor have you been there nor you know the demographics of Albania

Alexis you are Russian {Slav} so I don't expect you to edit Albania's history. Again stop your non sense by adding false numbers in Albania's page.Thank you for spending your time with Albania. Taulant23_¿question?

What Misplaced Pages's policies prevent Russian citizens to edit Albania-related articles?

Also what false numbers are you talking about when the passage in question doesn't contain any numbers at all:

Do you question the very existence of these minorities? Alæxis_¿question? 07:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems he wants the information buried in the Demographics of Albania article. But if information on minorities is good enough for every other country article, it's good enough for Albania. No special treatment is warranted. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

1-st NO Greek nor a Russian should edit Albania's page about minorities because you don't know nothing but "thank you" for spending ur time.

All I am saying is that Info about Minorities goes on the main article of Demographics, its consistent.

2-nd What I doubt is that you are the same user, with different account.When I can prove it I will let you know. --Taulant23 15:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

When you'll have gathered enough evidence go straight to WP:RFCU ))

Loves it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments don't seem very convincing. Note that in the article about Russia all the biggest minorities (including ones that constitute less than a percent of Russia's population) are listed. Alæxis_¿question? 18:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Dodona part in Albania,Pelasgians are linked to Albanians, some answers or maybe the other side of the story.

To Tsourkpk:

1) Dodona is located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea and there is remains of Dodona in Albania.

2) Herodotus , Hahns etc etc.The article shows the two sides of the story.Don't use it as nationalism nor am I.

The Illyrians were also Pelasgians{Pelazget in Albanian}, but in a wider sense. Moreover it is believed that of these cognate races, which are described by the ancient Greek writers as "barbarous" and "non-Hellenic," the Illyrians were the progenitors of the Ghegs, or Northern Albanians, and the Epirots the progenitors of the Tosks, or Southern Albanians. This general opinion is borne out the statement of Strabo that the Via Egnatia, which he describes as forming the boundary between the Illyrians and the Epirots, practically corresponds with the course of river Shkumbini, which now seperates the Ghegs from the Tosks. The same geographer states that Epirots were also called Pelasgians. The Pelasgian Zeus, whose memory survives even today in the appellation of God as "Zot" by the modern Albanians, was worshiped at Dodona, where the most famous oracle of ancient times was situated. According to Herodotus the neighborhood of the sanctuary was called Pelasgia.

3) Molossians, which are Greek tribes? hmmm with all respect that is not true. I don't want to go and argue for that right now.Everyone has their resources.

I would really preciate if Greeks won't delete anything in Albania article nor do I go and delete stuff in Greek articles. I assume a good faith.--Taulant23 16:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• This seems to be turning into a revert war. Might I suggest referring to it as "Dodona (Greece)"? I think getting upset over this is a little silly as the link to the article on Dodona says in the very first sentence that it's Greek, so the claims of "ownership" seem a little overblown, but that's to an American's eyes and perhaps there is a subtext here I don't appreciate (if so, I apologize). Alternatively, if both parties are insistent on reverting and editing this back and forth, I would suggest mediation. Peace, croll 18:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised by this dispute. I've been to Dodona; it's about 20 km southwest of Ioannina, which last time I looked at a map was well inside Greece (see for the exact location). It might end up in Albania in a few million years' time through continental drift, but none of us will be around to worry about that... -- ChrisO 19:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I think the argument is not over whether Albania owns Dodona, but whether by mentioning Dodona in the Albania article there is an implied ownership. I don't think that's the case at all, but rather it's just a reference to related ruins which are in close proximity (which, as a traveler, I would appreciate), but someone seems to think it implies Albania owns Dodona. I don't mean to speak for Taulant23, but I don't think that's what he is suggesting. croll 19:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Dodona's a substantial distance from the Albanian border (50-60 km or so?), so I'm not sure the "close proximity" argument is really valid. -- ChrisO 19:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah... well, that's a good point. Taulant23 had said it was 5 miles SE. So, which is it, and if it's 50 or 60 km, then why is this being included? croll 19:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

croll You are right! Even though I have read & have enough sources aout Dodona linked with Albania (one of them Dodona is Albanian name, my Grandma is called Dodona] I think Dodona is mostly part of modern Greece.What I am saying is that, there are a lot of remains of Dodona in Albania specially in Southern Albania.Hoenestly, I never heard that Albania wants to claim Dodona but sure there are people who claim it because the way how it is written and spelled is Albanian & it was part of Albania once(plz see Ali Pasha ).

Dodona was the oldest of the Pagan Greek oracles, located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea.Albania shares with Greece the peculiar phenomenon of subterranean rivers; the waters of the lake of Jamina flow through one of these underground channels into the Gulf of Arta, and this gave rise to the myth that here was the entrance to the infernal world of the ancient Greeks.

p.s. look what I found: After Scutari, Yanina is the largest and most interesting town of modern Albania. Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. Illyricum Sacrum (Venice, 1751- 1819) Again I am not claiming Dodona,most of the good Greeks know that we share a lot in common. my $.2 --Taulant23 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see where the confusion is coming from. I think your reference is referring to the old Janina province of the Ottoman Empire, which covered northern Greece and southern Albania - as the name suggests, it was centred on Ioannina (Janina/Yanina). As I recall, it was ruled by Albanian vassals of the Ottomans (Ali Pasha and his ilk). So when your source is referring to "modern Albania", it's referring to Ottoman Albania, which covered a much wider area than 21st century Albania. Ioannina and Dodona are well inside Greek territory now, having been incorporated into Greece in 1913. -- ChrisO 22:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

And even then, referring to the Ottoman vilayet of Yanya as "Albania" is inaccurate and misleading. It may have been under the direct rule of ethnic Albanians for part of its history, but by no means were its habitants overwhelmingly or even predominantly Albanian. The concept of "Albania" itself dates back only to the Rilindja of the last century. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)??????

I got most of it and yes you might be right but the last sentence "The concept of "Albania" itself dates back only to the Rilindja of the last century. ·ΚέκρωΨ· " its ofending. Keep ya Greek nationalist BS for ya self or find a forum ΚέκρωΨ.

Even though I don't have to prove to you anything "because in my book you are a vandal user,specailly related to Albania & Macedonia articles" the Albanian language Albania and Albanians go way longer back in history.--Taulant23 06:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Greek nationalist BS? Piss off, mate. I'm not the one claiming Tirana as Greece's chief tourist attraction. Dodona has nothing to do with Albania. Never has and never will. End of story. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Tirana as Greece's chief tourist attraction?? hmmmm I guess you have been spending to much time in Australia and get all ur information from ur Nationalist sites who pretty much claim that everythink or everyone famous is Greek.

Moe, I can see that you are dreaming about southern Albania(as u call it North Epirus) DREAM ON BOY,DREAM ON.--Taulant23 17:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well, I have a suggestion that I'd like to repeat and which seems reasonable (to me at least) given the additional discussion and background. Here's the way this read at one point during the revert war:

Fragments of Cyclopean structures, of the Cyclopean-Pelasgian period, were discovered at Kretsunitsa, Arinishta, and other sites of the district of Gjirokastra. The walls, partly Cyclopean, of an ancient city (perhaps Byllis) are visible at Gradishti on the picturesque Viosa River. Few traces remain of the once celebrated Dyrrhachium (today Durrës). The most important and interesting remains, however, are those of Dodona where the celebrated oracle of ancient times was situated.

I am making an assumption based on Taulant23's statements and the wording of the above excerpt that the ruins are, in fact, historically related (i.e., Cyclopean structures). My suggestion is to simply refer to "Dodona" as "Dodona (Greece)". The reason for this suggestion is that it is discussion of a series of ruins and refers to "the most important and interesting" remains as Dodona. If there is recognition that they're in Greece, well, that's a compliment to Greece, right? It is, admittedly, a tangent, but not completely unrelated and it is only a small tangent (just a sentence) and it refers the reader to the appropriate article while also acknowledging that the ruins in question are in Greece. As a reader, I find it an interesting reference that would prompt me to read more but that assumes there is a relationship between the ruins. Would this be acceptable? croll 01:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that this article is about Albania; the information on Dodona is simply irrelevant and belongs elsewhere. The original intent of the Albanian editor behind that sentence was not to exalt Dodona as the prime example of Cyclopean masonry (there is not a single reference to Dodona in the relevant article), but to include it in a random selection of Albania's ancient sites, i.e. a direct territorial claim against a neighbouring country. Whose "most important and interesting remains" does he mean, then? Greece's? Surely not; Greece has far more important ancient ruins. No, what he really means is that Dodona is Albania's most important archaeological site, which of course would be true if only it actually were in Albania. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You definitely make some fair points. I still think there is a way to balance both of your concerns. Allow me to put it this way... These ruins and archicture are ancient. As you stated, they predate Albania which means they predate modern geopolitical boundaries. To arbitrarily put up a wall that prevents the discussion of related ruins is (I feel) putting form over substance. Taulant said it's not his intention to assert that Albania "owns" the ruins or that they're in Albania. We have to assume good faith and presume he means exactly that. So, although they're not within modern political borders, the ruins are apparently related to some extent. It is definitely not worth a long discussion, however, I would certainly agree with you on that. What about rephrasing the sentence like this, "The most important and interesting remains, however, are in Greece, where the celebrated oracle of ancient times, Dodona, was situated." This could even be put into parentheses. Having absolutely no interest in Greek versus Albanian discussions (chalk it up to American ignorance *wink*) I have to say it seems relevant enough to me that, as a reader, I would appreciate the reference and link. croll 13:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. What is located in Greece gets mentioned in the Greece article, what is located in Albania gets mentioned in the Albania article. That's the whole point of having borders. Any attempt to mention Dodona in this article is a mendacious, nationalistic attempt to claim greek territory and heritage. Being an American, I don't think you appreciate the level of fanaticism among Albanian nationalists these days, of which this Taulant23 (he even named himself after an ancient Illyrian tribe that has nothing to do with Albania, LOL) is a prime example. just look at the situation in Kosovo to see what I mean. you may be willing to give this Taulant23 the benefit of the doubt, but I know albanian nationalism from up close and know better. the matter is closed as far as I'm concerned.

(I'm assuming that's from Kékrōps, but there's no signature.) Okay, fair enough. I'd like to hear what ChrisO and Taulant have to say. Clearly this issue pushes buttons. Lets try to refrain from calls of nationalism, though, as it really doesn't contribute to the discussion and just risks having this degenerate into a bunch of personal attacks. Thanks. croll 21:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Tourism Sites and WP:EL

They may have been reinserted on accident, but please don't put these back in without discussion. These links look like they are for-profit tourism sites and, regardless, are not in English. Either way, they are inappropriate per WP:EL (4.1 and 4.3). Thank you. croll 17:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

1. Apollodorus, TheLibrary, 3.7.6-3.7.7 at Theoi Project
2. Strabo, Geography, Book VII, 7, 5-8 at LacusCurtius
3. Dionysius of Halicarnassus,Roman Antiquities, Book XX, 10 (19.11) at LacusCurtius
4. Frontinus, Stratagems, Book II, V. On ambushes, 10, 19 at LacusCurtius
5. Pausanias, Description of Greece, 1.11.7-1.12.2 (Jones translation) at Theoi Project
6. Ptolemy, The Geography, Epirus: "Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
7. Cassius Dio, Roman History, Book IX, 40, 3-4 at LacusCurtius
8. Eutropius, Abridgment of Roman History’’(Historiae Romanae Breviarium) Book 2, ‘’XI, XIII’’’ at Tertullian

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