Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:43, 12 August 2007

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

Redirect Obama to Barack Obama?

Using his full name is unnecessary for a disambig page. Use the name he is most often referred to as. Italiavivi 00:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Use the disambiguation. Redirecting Obama to Mr. Obama article is wrong because Mr. Obama is not a known person outside of the U.S.A. Misplaced Pages also says this is wrong. See here "Disambiguation in Misplaced Pages is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic" The Obama city article was started a year BEFORE the Mr. Obama article. I have redirected Obama to Obama disambiguation.

When you look for Clinton, it is not redirected to Mr. Clinton or Mrs. Clinton. It is directed to Clinton (disambiguation) where you can see listings for many small towns called Clinton. Obama, Japan in Fukui is a big city.SRMach5B 02:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, come on. I will bet you that 99% of people who type in Obama are looking for Barack Obama, and not some village in Japan (32,000 is not a "big city"). There are hundreds of wiki links that link to the Barack Obama article, and only a handful (and mostly obscure ones) that link to Obama in Fukui. And while it is true that Obama, Japan existed before Barack Obama, that does not make it more important or give it precedence on Misplaced Pages. The reason that the towns called Clinton pop up is not because they are just as important as Bill and Hillary, but because it is not clear which of those two is more important. And to suggest that Mr. Obama is unknown outside the US is nonsense, especially in comparison to how well known Obama, Japan is outside of Japan, or outside of Fukui, for that matter --Ivan 01:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Misplaced Pages policy favors redirection when one usage is overwhelmingly more common. Ivan has already explained above why this situation differs from the Clinton example. Redirect done, and the Template:Redirect template added to Barack Obama page so that users can easily find the disambiguation page. —Lowellian (reply) 09:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Also agree. Wikicharts lists the Barack Obama article among the 300 most viewed Misplaced Pages articles for 6 of the past 7 months. In February 2007, it was ranked number 16, getting an estimated 21,429 views per day. There is no other "Obama" article listed among the top 1000 articles tracked by Wikicharts. If we are primarily interested in making Misplaced Pages more accessible to its users, the sensible answer seems clear. --HailFire 12:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Barack Obama is a minor politician who is little known except in the USA. Misplaced Pages is an international website, not a tool of the USA. A neutral administrator has already reached a concensus that Obama would be a disambiguation page. This happened in June 2007. Misplaced Pages policy demands neutrality and disambiguation in case of disputes. SNPBrown 06:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"A neutral administrator has already reached a concensus that Obama would be a disambiguation page." Where is this supposed consensus? Show us a link to the discussion where this consensus was established. Certainly, no such consensus exists on this talk page. —Lowellian (reply) 20:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Barack Obama is not a minor politician - he is one of the front runners for the Presidency, and I suspect he's rather more well-known than any of the other Obamas listed on the dab page, and is the one who is most likely being searched for when someone types in Obama. Save your criticism of the USA - if someone types in Chirac or Yeltsin, they are likely looking for Jacques or Boris. Neither one is a tool of the USA, and both go directly to these individuals' pages with the disambiguation page listed on top for other uses of the name. I don't see where consensus was reached on this page about this change - I favor going back to the same approach as Chirac. Tvoz |talk 06:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeltsin and Chirac are both former heads of state. The Obama disambiguation is similar to Perot, and Nader in that respect; although, I would also not oppose a move of Chirac to a DAB page. Also, the DABs of Yeltsin are all related to him, so it is not the same issue as we have here (a sitting prime minister, a historic clan and a city, and a potential nominee for president) by any stretch of the imagination. Quite a mixed bag. Neier 09:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

All we need to consider here is whether one particular usage of "Obama" is overwhelmingly more used than other usages. And one particular usage is. Obama, Japan, is a small, small city, and all other people named Obama are far less well-known than Barack. —Lowellian (reply) 20:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more, Lowellian. Let's not kid ourselves with false analogies and shoddy comparisons, either. Comparing the name "Edwards" with the name "Obama" is decidedly apples to oranges. "Obama (disambig)" is perfectly adequate and appropriate, with "Obama" piping straight to Barack Obama. Italiavivi 23:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

To move Obama to Obama (disambiguation) should go through the normal WP:RM procedure. The original content of Obama was the disambiguation. The wider audience would help reach a concensus as to whether or not a particular usage deserves the redirect in Misplaced Pages. Neier 00:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I came here to find out about Prime Minister Mangue Obama. I was curious to see what kind of discussion someone would find in the disambiguation page. For the sake of comparison, look at Edwards (disambiguation). John Edwards is certainly the most famous Edwards that I see in the disambiguation but he is just a fad and a politician known in his home country, the United States. There are less famous Edwards people and many cities of Edwards listed in the disambiguation page. If Edwards leads to disambiguation, so should Obama. Someone mentioned wikipedia policy is for disambiguation if there is a dispute. The question of what to do is straightforward in this case.

By the way, Mangue Obama is the Prime Minister. That is more senior than senator. (I'm not saying Obama should be directed to Mangue Obama but he currently has a higher priority than Senator Obama) Also note that Equatorial Guinea is no longer a dictatorship but a democracy. US Secretary of State Rice recently met with that government.Midemer 22:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Obama

Your recent move of Obama states that you did so per the discussion on the talk page. This is incorrect, as the discussion on the talk page does not indicate anywhere a consensus to redirect Obama to Barrack Obama. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Please explain your blatant ignoring of the discussion there. ···日本穣 21:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Your portrayal is disingenuous. "Quite the opposite" is quite inaccurate (a majority support the DAB), and despite the fact that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, the majority also happens to have made their case clearly with policy rationale and pertinent examples. Also, if you are going to be involved in a naming concern, you could at least learn how to spell the subject's name: "Barack." Not "Barak" or "Barrack." Italiavivi 21:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

How is it disingenuous to say that there was no consensus on the talk page regarding whether Obama should be redirected to Barrack Obama? And I was questioning your action, not discussing the content of a particular article. You can't simply brush this off when you took a unilateral action which was not supported by consensus. And making comments about a typo is rude to say the least. The question here is not whether or not there should be a dab page, but whether there was enough support to have the dab page at Obama (disambiguation) instead of Obama. I'd say that a prime minister of a country is much more important than a US senator who may not even be nominated by his party to run for president. ···日本穣 21:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, there has been no real discussion on this talk page; just some people saying "it belongs here" and moving it, and others saying "it belongs there" and moving it back. I still don't understand why people insist on unilaterally moving the page from Obama to Obama (disambiguation). It reeks of WP:BIAS and despite the popularity of the potential nominee in his home country, I don't see how it justifies a default disambiguation over other equally prominent people (a sitting prime minister!) and usage in at least two separate nations as a common name. The page Obama was the disambiguation to start with, and there is no reason for the move without discussing it at WP:RM. If it is such an open/shut case as some people seem to think, then all that is lost by taking the discussion there is four or five days waiting for the admin to close the official discussion. Until then, we will be embroiled in a wheel war, I guess. Neier 22:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Page move protection

As people keep moving this article back and forth, I have protecting it from being moved for seven days while we hold a discussion over where this article should be. ···日本穣 22:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, your protection while involved in the dispute was completely inappropriate. Italiavivi 23:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Obama (disambiguation) → Obama — While Barack Obama may be well known at the moment, the fact remains that he is only a US senator who may receive his party's nomination to run for the US presidency. There are other older and more well known in the world at large uses of the word "Obama", including multiple municipalities in Japan, a prime minister, and so forth. Therefore, I'm proposing that this page be moved back to Obama where it was before all this nonsense started. ···日本穣 22:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC) —···日本穣 22:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a total farce. There's no "requested move" -- the move was done (Obama (DAB) to Obama), then you protected it. The move has been done, and it's been protected by an involved sysop editor. Italiavivi 23:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Support per reasons outlined above. ···日本穣 22:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support. We need to be eliminating WP:BIAS, not going out of our way to create new instances of it. Even if Barack Obama were president of the US, affording him the Obama redirect by default over the prime minister of another sovereign nation seems rather arrogant. Many more well-known people (Lincoln, Thatcher) have no such default redirect. And, while others do (Chirac, Reagan, Yeltsin), those all seem to be limited to one culture or another (all Chirac (disambiguation) references are in France; all Yeltsin (disambiguation) references stem from the more well-known Boris, etc. Neier 23:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

It should be noted that this move request is being done backwards. The original title was Obama, and a subsequent edit war erupted when some people tried to move it to Obama (disambiguation). The closing admin should keep this in mind, when evaluating concensus at the end of this discussion, since ties tend to default to the status quo. I maintain that the status quo is what it was two weeks ago before this nonsense started. Neier 23:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not so much backward as it is going from where we stand now. I think it should be at Obama, partially because having a redirect from Obama to Obama (disambiguation) just seems absurd to me, and partially because of the reasons I listed above (the fact that a prime minister shares the name, and multiple municipalities or regions in Japan—which are far older than any of the other uses—share the name). ···日本穣 23:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)