Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:29, 14 June 2005

The article mentions a "holy congregation". Does anyone know exactly what congegration? Str1977 19:51, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Dispute

Henceforth I will not believe discussion with such active revisionism possible.I revert the word "reluctant" as being clear POV :no proof or citation provided . But I put it back in to show the extent of the problem , This article is seriously wrong and flawed . I warn of impending dispute . I cite under fair use and the needs of historical correctitude the following text from Klemens vov Klemperer's 1992 Oxford University Press German Resistance Against Hitler (The Search for Alies Abroad 1938 -19450) ISBN 0198219407 :

The German Catholics , the once much maligned "enemies of the Reich", partly in compensation , were pre-occupied during the Second Reich with proving their national reliability, and, while after 1918 their Centre Party did become one of the pillars of the 'Weimar coalition', it clearly veered in the last years of the Republic towards the right. Franz von Papen , one of the last chancellors before Hitler , belonged to the increasingly influential right wing of the Centre Party and became a decisive force in engineering Hitler's seizure of power . The leader of the Centre Party , Prelate Ludwig Kaas , was no less instrumental in advocating co-operation with the Nazis and, after their seizure of power , negotiating the treachorous Enabling Act(23 March 1933) and subsequently the Concordat with the Vatican (20 July 1933) . As for the German episcopate , it did not see fit , despite its obvious fundamental differences with Nazi ideology , to assume a clear cut position against the movement . "

That paragraph continues and will probably need fair-use to squash more POV/revisionism as KvK deals with the episcopal weakness following its reversal of policy towards the Nazis and its relationship to the Enabling Act . Below there is a reference to further damnation , given by one of the users , yet not availed of by that user in his editing , in any way .

I insert this relevant statement by user JohnK "Trying to find some perspective on this subject, I looked at Priests, Prelates and People: A History of European Catholicism since 1750 by Nicholas Atkin and Frank Tallett, published by Oxford University Press in 2003. This can surely stand in as a relatively authoritative source. Looking at it, I will admit that the basic substance of Flamekeeper's accusations seems to be supported by Atkin and Tallett's narrative - Pius XI and Pacelli were willing to acquiesce in the Centre Party's demise as a quid pro quo in return for the Concordat, and Kaas was, essentially, acting as their agent."

The clearly incorrect statement that the CP was dissolved is flagged . If you dissolve me , in past tense I am dissolved . If I dissolve myself - I dissolved . The history has been proved by the German user who informed us of the official line on this ,emanating from its contemporary remains , at talk Centre Party Germany . All historians equally contradict the statement- and it was clear Nazi policy to achieve auto-dissolution , Therefore this is of the utmost revisionist importance . This is linguistic revisionism of a similar subtlety to all other such historical abuse I have encountered on pages touching the history of Papal collusion with Fascism .Fiamekeeper 08:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article as rewritten now is completely unacceptable . The Vatican details are presumably valid corrections , and presumably that is officially provided . Would the Vatican, then ,deny that a letter from Cardinal Pacelli was read out during a leadership meeting of the Centre Party as early as May 1932 ( accusation by [[Edgar Ansel Mowrer in 1968) ? That this letter was read out by Kaas? That this letter exhorted the catholic party of the Centre to support a Hitler Chancellorship thenceforward ? That the Vatican policy as delineated by John Cornwell as repeating the similar democratic destabilisation of Italy is clearly historically attested ? That all the historians cited thus far on the relevant pages who attest to a Kaas parlayed (by his mouth to Hitler from that of Pope Pius XI and the future Pope Pius XII ) quid pro quo are slanders? All the above historical evidence of negotiations prior to the Enabling Act and up until the signing of the Concordat , which carry on throughout with Kaas playing the role of designer and intermediaary , are ignored . It is not enough to interpolate the more temporal nature of the leadership's (Kaas') activities of negotiation or electioneering during the March 1933 elections , negotiations which were indeed focused on balancing and redesigning the Reichstag , with the meatier negotiations being conducted by Kaas on behalf of his true masters, The Holy See . These negotiations are attested to , the visits of Kaas between Hitler and Rome , attested , lenghthy stays with Pacelli in the vatcian attest to more than a formal relationship, as is suggested. Kaas ' own language in approbation of Hitler is attested, his determinant communications back to Germany from the vatican on Hitler's Birthday in 1933 are attested , attested as fundamental in co-ercing and spinning Catholic voters towards the changed approbation and tolerance of Nazizm along the Pius XI/Pacelli line.

Criminal Subversion

Whitewash is all over this , Cover-up. This page represents most serious revisionism about an act of criminal subversion , this subversion is known to be criminal by the moral definition of Law . This has been discussed and /or archived on Pope John Paul II , Pope Benedict XVI ,Theology of Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Pius XII , the Centre Party Germany and Hitler's Pope . Historical scholarship & references from published sources has been removed throughout these pages in a concerted attempt to whitewash this criminality of purpose . This purpose was to use Fascist Dictatorship as a bulwark against Communism. As we all know the result has been a considerable success (apart from the civilian and military casualties of 80 millions) , and now we can all see a revived capacity for influence by a self-electing and by its own definition , criminal institution . The culpability is clear in the comments and analysis of mainstream historians for at least 50 years and the criminality remaining subsists in the denial of responsibility by this institution . Ludwig Kaas is of the utmost importance in this , the oustanding suicide of Democracy that is the Enabling Act . On behalf of all who suffered this subversion of the human order , I continue to protest most strongly .

See page 38 of German Resistance Against Hitler by Klemens von Klemperer . After stating the above and continuing that the German Hierarchy , notwithstanding its clear moral differences with Nazi ideology ,failed to take a 'clear-cut' position against them, Klemperer cites general considerations of expediency and fears of Communism , as reason. That the earlier 1930 position of declaring a warning of moral incompatibility with Church teaching , of disallowing Priests from co-operation was retracted "however , once Hitler in his governmental declaration of 23 March 1933, in the formulation of which prelate Kaas had a hand - assured both Christian denominations that the 'National Government considered them 'the most important factors ' for the maintenance of the people's well-being and promised to respect their rights. With the Concordat the Church finally conferred international respectability on the Nazi regime ."

In other words Ludwig Kaas here wrote part of that speech . A Prelate of the Catholic Church speech-writing for Adolf on the very day he defeated democracy . Slander ? Kaas Collaboration ? Over-turning of the Bishops and their experience ? Papal interference in the civil order ? Papal collaboration ? Against the Bishops ? Against the moral order of humanity ? Against democracy in order to beat Communism Against the Magisterium , against the Bible Book of Romans 3, 8 ).

I am Dr Corecticus and I make no slander : The Misplaced Pages is under assault , as is a democracy near to you , again . Flamekeeper makes no slander , but read the Excommunication there , behind Hitler's Pope : there is no slander to say that these two Popes , by Canonical law ,should be dug up and removed from the Basilica of St. Peter . Ludwig Kaas too . Fiamekeeper 00:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry FK, but what you are posting here does not warrant calling the entry "disputed".

In the first half of your post you again post general statements we have heard time and again from you and with not specific connection to Kaas. In the second half you quote Klemperer and what he says is basically correct and/or valid interpretation.

However you then draw unwarranted conclusions from it and state them as fact. The effect is slander, even if you don't mean to since you honestly hold this to be correct.

Let me explain, what Klemperer means:

Kaas negotiated with Hitler and Papen on the Centre's support for the Enabling Act and asked the government to give guarantees or assurances ("he was the main advocate for supporting the Hitler administration's Enabling Act in return for certain guarantees") and the government promised to accept these (though a written confirmation was delayed - on purpose) and Hitler also addressed the issues in his speech (I will include that fact, if you insist). In that way Klemperer is right in referring to the "governmental declaration of 23 March 1933, in the formulation of which prelate Kaas had a hand". It is however untrue to say that Kaas wrote Hitler's speech and it is much less true that he should bear the blame for Hitler breaking these promises. He already bears enough blame.

After this you again to your usual general statements, implying things that are mostly untrue and that have no bearing on this entry.

Protecting yourself against the possible accusation of slander by saying: "I am Dr Corecticus and I make no slander". Consider, Emperor, that you are human, I say.

And yes, it is not slander to say they should be dug up, it is a dispicable display of gross impiety.

Str1977 16:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)