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Revision as of 13:07, 13 August 2002

The previous talk, about Copernicus' nationality, is now at talk:Copernicus' nationality

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In Padua both , his uncle, the Prince-Bishop and Copernicus had enrolled as student from the ...German Nation (Full name was at that time Holy Roman Empire of German Nation).

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Poland had parts of Prussia occupied, tried to annex and wanted to have Polish coins in Prussia. The cities of Elbing, Danzig and Thorn did not want to give up their individual sovereign rights and continued coining money. In 1519, 1522, and 1529 Copernicus published Money Reform Memoranda. His 1529 writings stated in part :

" Woe to you, unfortunate Prussiland, that you should have to suffer for such a bad money management!.. If we do not have relief here soon, then Prussia is soon going to have only coins left, which contain nothing but copper. Then all trade with foreign countries would stop. Which foreign tradesman would want to sell his merchandise for mere copper?... Such a break-up of Prussiland is silently observed by the big powers; they let our beloved fatherland, to which we owe everything, to which we owe life itself, from day to day collaps miserably.." (excerpt from Hermann Kesten, Copernicus, describing Prussia during the civil wars leading to the Reformation, transl by H. Jonat).

I'm really sorry, but this is just another attempt to throw in the Poland-Prussia debate in another guise. The manner in which the quote is presented, as well as the translation (there really is no such thing as Prussiland in English, and fatherland is doubtful at best), are simply unacceptable. Moreover, if this is a translation of someone's Latin-German translation, than I think that fatherland is simply the Latin patria -- VERY different than the context Helga would like us to accept. Again, there has been so much time spent on this, that it's bordering on the ridiculous. Still, as a professional historian, I cannot sit by and allow this blatant misrepresentation. People in Copernicus' time really didn't understand ethnicity and nationality in the same way that you want to believe, Fr. Jonat. And, contrary to what you may believe, i don't care if Copernicus is Polish, German, or even Thornisch! Gianfranco is correct about placing the man's accomplishments first. What I do care about is that the debate and the entire issue of nationality are framed within the proper context: that context is one of people with an ideological interest allowing that interest to shape a view of history that is in fact inaccurate. J Hofmann Kemp, Tuesday, May 21, 2002

PS: Hermann Kesten's undoubted brilliance as a dramatist and author aside, he was doubtless a man of his time. He was educated at a period when ethnic nationalism permeated the teaching of history, and when it was not only acceptable, but normal, to write history with underlying motives. Today, historians are expected to take the biases and background of the author into consideration. Moreover, we are expected to be more critical of historians who do seem allow their viewpoints to shape their presentation of history. I'm sorry, but all authors are not equal, and some scholarship is better than others. We should try to keep this in mind.

What is this?

Of course, this was very far from what officially accepted in dominant culture. And even farther from the actually ruling religious influence on science was the following conclusion that an infinitive reality rendered de facto impossible the hypothesis of an external "engine", an entity that from outside could give a soul, a power and a life to the World and to Human beings. No transcendence, the most evident inspiring theme of philosophy at that time, could find an explanation in such a cosmic system, none of the most basic dogmas of Christianism (but of other religions too, the same way) could be compatible with such a revolutionary theory; besides, this opened a way to immanence and immanentism, which remained and developed in modern philosophy.

Given that immanentism is the logical foundation of subjectivism, that finds inside the Man the principles that rule thought, history and reality, some find that Copernicanism demolished the foundations of medieval science and metaphysics, therefore giving a start to a general movement that would have brought modern thought to rebel against the objectivism and the authoritarism of traditional thought.

Correctly, his innovation has been quite unanimously defined as a real revolution (despite the unwanted calembour).

Immanuel Kant, for instance, caught the symbolic character of Copernicus' revolution (of which he put in evidence the trascendental rationalism) underlining that, in his vision, human rationality was the real legislator of the phenomenical reality; Copernicanism was in a winning opposition against the scientific and philosophical Aristotelism, a quite subjective position (in a Kantist sense) meant to fight against the ruling dogmatism.

More recent philosophers too have found in Copernicus a still valid and valuable philosophical meaning, properly used to describe the position of the modern man in front of cultural traditions. A so-called Homo Copernicanus was then by some described like that modern man whose central themes are to be found in ordinary human problems, as a general cultural reference.

What some consider Copernicus important for. --Gianfranco

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(unfortunately nothing of this remains to us)

I agree with this evaluation, but it's a POV. If someone wants to put this idea back, try "of which nothing remains today" ... Ed Poor

Sorry Ed, I reverted back to an earlier version that reflected huge amounts of work and cooperation in a truly wiki spirit. Much of the discussion seems to have been lost between the old software and the new (or maybe it was archived somewhere, because the talk page was enormous), but this version was deemed acceptable by the largest amount of people involved. You can kind of tell because it's been pretty much left alone until very recently, when Helga started sneaking in her agenda. No offense meant, but you just don't know how hard it was to get it this way -- and if you're wondering, I actually have several strong objections to the way it is, but believe it's best to leave it in what the group found most neutral.J Hofmann Kemp

PS -- weren't the place-name links in German, but pipelined to the Polish names??

After your revert, I changed the birthplace sentence again, to show both variations of the name: Thorn and Torun. And I balanced a parenthesis.

HJ -- that wasn't "information about his studies" that was an unordered list of facts that you were using to try to prove your theory about Copernicus' nationality. We have gone over this topic many times. You clearly do not understand that nationality and citizenship were very differently understood in Copernicus' time that they are today. Moreover, you don't want to understand -- you simply want to try to force some misled artificial construct into this article because that's the only way your world view can function. Please try to be more straightforward and do what you are saying you're doing. Otherwise, is smacks of intellectual dishonesty. J Hofmann Kemp