Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:59, 5 September 2007

Hello Epbr123, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Here are some recommended guidelines to help you get involved. Please feel free to contact me if you need help with anything. Best of luck and happy editing! Wikipediarules2221 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Getting started Misplaced Pages Tutorial How to edit a page The five pillars of Misplaced Pages Manual of Style Be bold in editing How to write a great article WikiProjects Getting your info out there Cite your sources Neutral Point of View Point of View Verifiability Uploading images Image use policy Getting more Misplaced Pages rules Policy Library Getting help New contributors' help page Where to ask a question Help Desk Frequently Asked Questions Getting along Wikipedians Wikiquette Civility Sign your posts Conflict resolution Getting technical Pages needing attention Peer review Utilities Village pump

Wikipediarules2221 21:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Long speech

I put a long speech on Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User_talk:Epbr123_blanking on the theory that you won't delete it there, and everyone will get a chance to see it. Please read it. It's important. I do think you are well meaning, but a lot of people don't, and in the end community consensus is what drives this thing. It is as important to convince people that you mean well as to actually mean well. --AnonEMouse 17:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Notability confusion

In several AfDs, you write "Notable porn stars tend to have made over 100 movies." That's not a correct interpretation; making 100 movies was once rare enough to be notable, but it was never a requirement. Probably the most glaring counter-example is Bambi Woods, who made all of 2(!) movies and is quite notable, because one of them was Debbie Does Dallas. Linda Lovelace is also highly notable and didn't make many films. Of course 100 films is now debatable, partly because of such misunderstandings. Not meeting a specific one of several criteria isn't a deletion reason. That's like arguing that George Bush isn't notable because he never won a Nobel Prize. --AnonEMouse 21:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• I wasn't using the number of films as a reason to delete. I was just countering Dekkappai, Disavian and LaMenta3's usual arguments that articles should be kept due to the number of films made. The articles I nominated didn't appear to pass any criteria. Epbr123 21:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "76 movies ... which is very low": I wouldn't say that. It's not unusually high enough to be notable, but it's hardly low. The average person walking down the street has not performed in 76 porn films! Note that I haven't done a thorough research of it yet, so I'm not opining one way or another on the article as such, just that argument isn't right. --AnonEMouse 21:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I said its low for porn star standards. Epbr123 21:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I understand, but we don't have any reference on porn star standards (unless you know of one, in which case I would be very glad to see it, it would be very useful). The "100 film" rule was a reasonably bright line for "unusually prolific actresses", but it said nothing about what "porn star standards" were. For example, we have a category, Category:People_over_eight_feet_tall. If you know of a person over 8 feet tall, they almost certainly qualify for a Misplaced Pages article. They're very rare, and people will write books and articles about them merely because of their height, even if they don't do a single other notable thing in their lives. Someone merely 6 feet 8 inches tall isn't that unusual, they won't get a Misplaced Pages article merely because of that - but they aren't short! Even for basketball players, they aren't short. Same for someone with 76, or even 48 porn films. If they made fewer than 10 total, maybe you could say that isn't much of a career, but Jenna Jameson, for example, was quite notable before she had 48 films, and for several years did 5 per year without being considered inactive. --AnonEMouse 22:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
        • You're right but on the other hand, other people shouldn't claim someone is notable because of the amount of movies or magazines they've appeared in. Epbr123 23:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Slow up!

I'll agree with you in that some of the articles are about non-notable actresses and should probably be deleted. Unfortunately, that way you're doing it definately raises hackles and you're not making friends this way. After all you've put up 12 articles up for AFD today... that's definately gonna tick people off. I would strongly suggest you slow up the pace of the AFDs. Why not tag the suspect articles with {{notability}} tags instead? If you take a look at the Skyy Black (porn star) article, it already had such a tag on it before your AFD. Tabercil 22:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

David Howell (footballer)

You nominated this article for deletion. Now that the article has been expanded, it is clear that he meets the terms of WP:BIO. Would you like to re-consider your nomination? Thanks. Daemonic Kangaroo 18:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Summaries

--Mel Etitis (Talk) 06:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages, and slowing down with the deletions. We didn't get along for a while, but I think we've gotten past all of that mess. Have a good day! :) —Disavian (/_contribs) 15:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the barnstar - it's good to be noticed. So many article to write/improve; so little time! Daemonic Kangaroo 16:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Close discussion

Close discussion on Jessica Lindgren thanks!--90.225.121.21 15:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Herne Bay, Kent

Good work, the Image:North East Kent.PNG looks good, but the powers that be don't like the "png" format, too much space, outside of my realm of expertise but Richtom80 from the WikiProject Kent should be able to help. - Olive Oil -_ŢάĽɮ - 16:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note, you should've put the request for Richard, on his Talk page - Olive Oil -_ŢάĽɮ - 17:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops. I've moved it now. Thanks for all your help. Epbr123 17:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I will try and get that done tomorrow for you. It might be worth having a look at a program called inkscape, it is open source so free to download and use. It allows you to open SVG files and edit them. The reason SVG files are better is not only because the file size is smaller it also means that the files can be enlarged to any size (from A4 to as big as a building) because the image is stored as vectors instead of raster (pixels). Inkscape is a very easy program to use and great to get to grips with, if you do decide to try it and get stuck you can always drop me a message on my talk page and I will try and help you out. Richard Thompson (Talk! | Contribs) 17:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. I'll try that out. Epbr123 17:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I made the image SVG, I haven't replaced it on any pages yet. Download and take a look, make sure you download the svg not the png wikipedia renders. Image is Image:North_East_Kent.svg. Change it and reupload it if you like. :o) If you are happy, update all pages that the png is listed on. Richard Thompson (Talk! | Contribs) 20:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Aliene Ma'riage

Hi, I see you added a link to the Aliene Ma'riage page. You may have noticed it's under consideration for deletion. If you're interested in seeing it remain, please go to http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aliene_Ma%27riage and leave a comment in favor. Thanks. Pkeets 01:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Herne Bay, Kent

I changed the sentance as "Victorian drama" is incorrect. Upstairs, Downstairs was set from 1903 to 1930, the Victorian era ended in 1901. The term "Edwardian drama" is sometimes used for UpDown but never "Victorian drama" as it is factually incorrect. I personally think that "period drama" is the best. --UpDown 10:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oh yes, you're right. I remember now the episode when George V came for dinner. Sorry. Epbr123 10:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Archimedes

I agree that the intro is too short at the moment (at least it is not too long). Could you produce some general suggestions for expanding it?--Ianmacm 07:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The City of Peterborough

Hello. Can you please have another look at the article when you get a chance. Most of the changes you have requested have now been made. Thanks. 163.167.129.124 14:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• Some good improvements have been made but five of the nine references I requested have still not been found. Epbr123 17:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. 163.167.129.124 15:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Eve Laurence

I speedy kept it becuase a very recent deletion debate with the same reason for deletion was determined to be keep. Unless there was an effective change in the WP:PORNBIO criteria, it would be repeating the same thing over again --w 19:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Buses WikiProject

I notice that you have edited lists of bus routes recently. You might be interested in helping with the new WikiProject buses, especially the proposed Bus route list guide. We are also working out when a bus route should have its own article and other issues. --NE2 15:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Kate Bush

I just proofread the Kate Bush article - you did a good job on copyediting because there wasn't much left to do! I took the liberty of listing you as the copyeditor using the League of Copyeditors template on the talk page. Happy editing! Cricketgirl 16:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sale, Greater Manchester

I feel that the issues you raised while reviewing the article for GA status have been addressed and I will relist the article. I would appreciate your thoughts, you raised some good points before. Thanks. Nev1 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

• I thought it worth mentioning that I think your recent efforts in working on the Sale article to try and take it from GA to FA status are little short of heroic. I would probably have lost patience with the whole process long ago. I don't agree with all the changes you've made to the article, but I understand why you made them :) ---- Eric 00:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Manhattan

The GA issues you had raised have been addressed, including the addition of nearly two-dozen sources for the items you raised and other material that would benefit from more detailed sourcing. Please review and let me know if any further changes are required. Alansohn 19:46, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• The second set of GA issues you identified have been addressed, and other text and sources have been added to expand and improve the article. Please review the article again and let me know if any further changes are required to meet GA status. Alansohn 17:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Thomas Becket

The article Thomas Becket you nominated as a good article has failed , see Talk:Thomas Becket for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of said article. If you oppose this decision, you may ask for a review. StAnselm 00:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Puppini Sisters Should go back on the Kate Bush Article

They Puppini Sisters are a notable group. As of Tuesday of this week week they were number 2 on the amazon.com bestsellers list and although original reasearch I have heard them on U.S. Radio. There are many articles on them in the U.K. press many of them commenting favorable or unfavorably on thier Andrews Sisters style cover of Wuthering Heights ,, Edkollin 16:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Further copyediting on Kate Bush

Just to let you know, I've proofread much of the article, and I'll keep watch over it to ensure that it stays grammatically correct. I want it to be featured as much as you do :) --Jitterro 04:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot

Things happen sometimes, one party sees something that wasn't really there ...

Anyway, I just want to thank you for your invaluable input into the Sale article (and also for your help on the Stretford article). I really wanted the Sale article to become some kind of an example for other articles about areas within Trafford, and that's what I think it's now becoming.

I will copy your ideas across to other Trafford articles, without any apology whatsoever, because they seem by and large to make sense to me :-). ---- Eric 23:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jasmine Sinclair

I just noticed that even though you improved the article a lot, you didn't actually state a formal opinion in the AFD. Do you think the article is notable enough to keep?--AnonEMouse 16:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Whitstable

Just a quick query as to whether there is anything specific that you would like added to the Whitstable article as it is looking good at the moment. However, I do feel the section on the Great Fire of Whitstable is given undue prominence Thanks Duke of Whitstable 14:57, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Widnes

Thank you for your comment on the Widnes article which is currently a GA candidate. I modelled it on the Runcorn article which you yourself passed as a GA with the comment "great work"; so I used similar headings. I must say that I wondered if the Runcorn article had too many sub-headings, although for the casual visitor to the article it might make navigation easier. I am very happy to merge the sub-sections of the transport and religion sections. Incidentally I have also tried to follow the advice of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements for guidance, although I do feel that the "Present day" heading is not helpful - surely anything other than "History" is "Present day". I also added a "Religion" section because if we have "Education" and "Transport", surely we should have "Religion" (that's a bit of an aside). I'm not so sure about "Sports and leisure centres" and "Sport"; the former refers to a sub-section of "Communal facilities", that is, we can all be involved in them, whereas "Sport" is more to do with the professional and near-professional sports in the town, which excludes most of us - making us spectators rather than participants; in other words I see them as definitely different.

Having said all this, do you advise me to deal now with the "Religion" and "Transport" sections along the lines you suggest, which might make it 'unstable' for GA assessment, or wait for an "On hold" to deal with it then? My interest in all this is, as a member of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cheshire, to improve the quality of the articles relating to the places I know, replacing the rather poor material which was formerly there. My comments above are intended to be in the nature of enquiry rather than of criticism. Any help you can give me will be transmitted to other members of the project for the overall improvement of the Cheshire articles in Misplaced Pages who are already using the Runcorn article as a model. Best wishes. Peter I. Vardy 20:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Kent GA review

• • Absolutely my pleasure Epbr123. Thank you for your kindness. Best wishes --VS 23:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. Well done on attacking the suggestions with such gusto. I did not expect your team to be able to complete the adjustments quite as quickly as you did. I note that you have put it back up for assessment and no doubt it will be assessed reasonably quickly - but I probably have to leave it for another pair of eyes at this stage as I have a number of GA assessments on the run at the moment. If it hasn't been assessed within a week or so I will have time to look at it again.--VS 03:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Looks like no-one has gotten around to Kent since my last comment above. Therefore, as promised, I have put it to the top my list of assessments for this weekend. Stand by. Cheers!--VS 03:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Nice one. Epbr123 16:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Birchington-on-Sea

You wrote:

I noticed that you were involved in the Birchington-on-Sea article. I'm currently trying to get the article to Featured Article status and I just wondered if you have any photos of the town which you could be added to the article.

I have very few that are easily accessible, good quality, etc. but there are loads on FlickR, particularly aerial shots from Dr Moores -- I'd suggest you contact him (or the others who've uploaded good shots) to see if you can get permission to use any of them.

HTH Ozaru 09:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Your use of vandal wanring templates.

I saw that you posted a "severe" warning here for an IP editing Kate Bush. I reviewed the edits in question. The edits may have been POV or immature, but were not blatant vandalism. Neither did the IP appear to be repeatedly posting such edits on the page. Please do not bite newbies or be excessively harsh in use of warning templates. This scares away potentially good future editors...—Gaff 01:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Whitstable

Well done Epbr123. Notes on talk page also. Keep up the great work.--VS 04:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Would just like to add my congratulations as well - the entry is looking far better now than before. Also, if you would like to change the Whitstable Harbour image to one showing the actual habour basin, feel free to add http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Dsc01278.jpg - a picture I took myself. Thanks Duke of Whitstable 21:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, forgot to add...if you do need any specific images I do have quite a few available that I am happy to release, etc. Thanks again Duke of Whitstable 21:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Birchington coast.jpg

Hello, you uploaded Image:Birchington coast.jpg and noted that it was under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial License. Unfortunately, images that are for non-commercial use and lack a fair use assertion can be speedy deleted from Misplaced Pages. I placed the {{cc-by-nc-2.0}} template on it; it is now a candidate for speedy deletion under CSD I3. Please let me know if you have questions. --Strangerer (Talk) 17:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sale, Greater Manchester GA on hold

 GA on hold — Notes left on talk page. Nehrams2020 21:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Bellefontaine, Ohio

Stop leaving assessments on articles without providing rationale for the assessments. This degrades the hard work of other editors, and I consider it to be vandalism. Thank you. -- SwissCelt 11:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and now you decide to unilaterally fail the GAC, mere minutes after it was nominated? This is ridiculous. You could have saved us all some trouble by providing your comments when you assessed the article in the first place. Now we have a huge black mark on the article, and I'm PISSED. I'm going to take a day to cool off, per WP:3RR, but you'd better believe we're not done here. -- SwissCelt 12:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Herne Bay, Kent and others

Thanks for the barnstar! Note that a number of my comments on the Herne Bay nomination apply to your articles, including dates on captions and too much detail in the Notable residents section. Keep the good work up. CloudNine 16:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Have you addressed SandyGeorgia's prose objection? Just that I've noticed it's been there for a few days, whereas you're usually quick to address such objections. CloudNine 07:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

He advised that I take a few days away from the article so that I'll be more likely to spot problems with prose when I return to it. Epbr123 09:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Congrats on Herne Bay, Kent passing! CloudNine 18:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Kent

FA. Fine. Tell me what the procedure is. I have editorial reservation on most of the text and illustrations, in that while we have polished up the article to GA, the sections are a bit 'same-ish' with other articles. I've looked at the criteria for GA- and they look a bit bland surely it is a bit more complex. ClemRutter 17:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Westgate on Sea

I'm posting this here as I don't want to prejudice the FA nom with a vast amount of text under an Oppose. The history section is improving, but it still feels like a list of events with no underlying thread of history. A quick scan through some books has produced some info that may be of use in connecting the various strands and filling out some sections:

• EB1911 has a small period article on it which might be of general use: Westgate-on-Sea
• this article suggests the Streete Court School was called Wellington prep school.
• A German fighter made a forced landing in a field behind Westgate-on-Sea on 24/26 August 1942 after being shot down in a dogfight over the town. (from p.31 Jagdgeschwader 52: The Experten ISBN 1841767867). The Luftwaffe Fighters' Battle of Britain p.200 says it crash landed in Minster Road on 24 Aug and the pilot was captured.
• The British Seaside: Holidays and Resorts in the Twentieth Century (Studies in Popular Culture) has a couple of snippets:
  • After 1884 the resort was owned by Courts' Bank as the previous proprietors had absconded p.177
  • The resort was developed as if it was an exclusive London suburb with residential interests topping those of the occasional visitors (in contrast to the more downmarket Margate) p.179
• Charlie Mitchell trained at the St Mildred Hotel before his 1887 fight with John L. Sullivan (from p.246 John L. Sullivan and His America ISBN 0252064348)
• In 1888 the astronomer and journalist Joseph Norman Lockyer (later Sir Norman Lockyer) had an observatory built on the side of his house where he took the observations which formed the basis for his book The Sun's Place in Nature (from Agnes Mary Clerke and the Rise of Astrophysics pp.53-55 and The Sun's Place in Nature by J. Norman Lockyer)
• Sometime between 1891-1898 St John Philby, the father of Kim Philby, attended a school in Westgate run by A.A. Milne's father, J.V Milne (probably the Streete Court School) (from Eminent Georgians: The Lives of King George V, Elizabeth Bowen, St. John Philby, and Lady Astor p.132)
• The seaplane base was opened on 1 Aug 1914 and St Mildred's Hotel requisitioned for sleeping quarters. The base was used for both land and seaplanes but the land planes were moved to Marston in 1916 as the site at Westgate was less than ideal for landing and there had been an number of accidents. The treasury rebuked the Admiralty for not considering the unsuitability of the site before opening the base. The seaplanes remained active at Westgate and were incorporated into 219 Squadron shortly after the RAF took over operation in 1918. The seaplane base was never moved to Marston but was probably disbanded around 1919. (from Military Airfields of Britain: South East Kent,Hampshire,Surrey,Sussex p.266)
• The artist, Sir William Quiller Orchardson, had a house at Westgate where he painted many of his most well known pictures, and he was buried in the town. (pp.50-1 Dictionary of National Biography: Second Supplement. Volume 3 ISBN 0543881083)

Dante Gabriel Rossetti is listed as having died in the town in some biographies but it is likely a confusion with Birchington where he had a house (it's possible he was taken to Westgate for some reason before his death, but I haven't read that anywhere). Hope this helps. Yomangani 00:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Glad you're sticking around

I'm not that expert on English municipalities, but have noticed you have gotten some heat for nominating a few for FA all at once. Glad you seem to have taken that in stride, and been able to continue. --AnonEMouse 16:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sunderland

Thanks for your extensive GA review and constructive criticism of the Sunderland article. I don't know who nominated it, but it is easily way off in terms of the number of citations required. The JPS 17:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Penmon, Anglesey GA review

3 out of 4 comments fixed as per your suggestions. I disagreed with the 4th (combine geology and geography) but you'll see how I've addressed it, which I hope will satisfy you. I didn't think that geology fitted as a sub-topic of geography, and a combined heading of "Geography and geology" felt a bit clumpy. If it really is still a problem, perhaps you have an elegant suggestion to meet both points of view? Thanks for getting hold of the article so fast. Bencherlite 19:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And thanks for the pass! Bencherlite 19:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Erie, PA

You recently put this article on hold and left some good suggestions. I was wondering what you meant by: "The 'See also' templates should be moved to the top of the sections.". I have some other things to address and I should be finishing up with the article in the next few days. Thanks, --T. Wiki

I have addressed everything you listed. I think it is ready to be reviewed, if something still needs to be addressed, please leave a message on my talk page. I think this is a very good article and should be passed as a GA. Thanks very much, --T. Wiki 01:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Lam Tin GA review

In the review, you said that the lists "should either be removed, made into prose, or be given their own articles". However, as WP:EMBED suggests, in certain cases such as that of Lam Tin, embedded lists are preferred to prose when the former gives greater readability. Moreover, neither WP:LIST and WP:EMBED demands removal of embedded lists of articles.

You also said that Lam Tin Estate had got too much mention in the article, considering that it no longer exists. However, I have a different point - considering the fact that Lam Tin Estate was the first residential project in the area, it should deserve full attention. Plus, that section also mentions the later use of the land previously occupied by Lam Tin Estate. The length of that section is actually alright.

The layout fix will be done right away by one of our fellow editors from WPHK. We welcome you to give further comments on the article at any time in the future. --Deryck C. 09:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thunder Bay GA Rating

I updated parts of the article, please see the comment on Talk:Thunder Bay, Ontario#GA review. Vidioman 17:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding wikilinking of years, do we wikilink a year in infoboxes, like the year a community was established, if it is stand alone? (year only) Vidioman 21:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again but, I expanded the city symbols subsection, if you could, please check it over. Thanks. Vidioman 22:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Birchington

I didn't see you had a lot of concurrent FAs - you've been having fun! Birchington has the same "in the day time" transport problem as the Westgate-on-Sea had, and although the Culture section starts well it dissolves a bit towards the end. I'll support it if you fix those. Yomangani 15:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

talk:thunder bay

Media in Ontario can't be listed the same as the schools in Kent article, it would be too awkward. There are over 3000 radio stations and at least 50 TV stations, and about 200 news papers, it would just be too cumbersome. Regional media might work but that isn't an accepted standard. Vidioman 02:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Brands Hatch

Thanks for the rating! Tbone762 08:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ...

... for the kind words :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

I absolutely pointed out that diff first and without anyone saying anything about it. Please pay attention and read the page before commenting. Thanks IvoShandor

Oh, just so you know, no hard feelings or anything, I am sure it was an oversight. IvoShandor 16:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Prospect Park GA Review

Thank you for the review. You've turned up the sort of inconsistencies that I had hoped an independent reviewer would uncover. Time constraints forbid me to do significant work on this article later this week, but I'll have time today and Saturday, and by that day anticipate addressing all of your concerns. I'll drop you a note then confirming this. In the meantime, I'd like to express my appreciation for the time you have taken for this review. Take care — Gosgood 09:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello Epbr123. I've implemented the improvements you have suggested. If, at your convenience, you could revisit the article, I'd be much obliged. Thank you. — Gosgood 17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My recent RfA

Thanks for your support (and position switching) in my recent, unsuccessful RfA. It's much appreciated. IvoShandor 16:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Vanadinite

truely speaking, the page seems to be a start class article. Sushant gupta (talk · contribs) 05:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Whitstable

Thanks for all your hard work on the Whitstable article. A fantastic job, well done. Nshimbi 10:09 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The Good Article Medal of Merit

		The Good Article Medal of Merit
		I have awarded you this medal for your work in helping to reduce the backlog during the Good Article Candidates Backlog Elmination Drive. You reviewed five or more articles during the drive, which helped to contribute to the large decrease in the backlog. If you have the time, please continue to review articles to help make sure the backlog does not jump back up to what it was. Good job and happy editing! Nehrams2020 06:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Blyth, Northumberland

Thanks for the rating and recommendations for Blyth, Northumberland. Dbam /_{Contributions} 13:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Margate F.C.

Cheers for all those fixes to refs and dashes :-) ChrisTheDude 07:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Chew Stoke FAC

Thanks for all the advice on the Chew Stoke FAC - if you spot anything else please let me know. BTW you seem to edit lots of east Kent articles - I was brung up in Margit! — Rod 08:27, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Brazil Page

I've been working on this page along with other users for quite some time, but it is clearly not ready for "good article" status. I was against the nomination as there are entire sections without sufficient references (some have none at all) whilst other sections like "sports" need to be redone from scratch as they are full of POV. Also, right now the article is in the middle of an edit war since users can't come to terms about the relevancy of the Education and Health sections. I strongly support its inclusion, and so does the majority. We're trying to reason with the minority and the debate is on, so it's not the best of times for nominations.

Considering all this, can we cancel the nomination? It's pointless and a waste of people's time.

Sparks1979 21:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is far from GA, but placing the review on hold may provide an incentive for some editors to start work on the referencing problem. Epbr123 22:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Kent

I spoke of my reservations of the text of Kent but didn't have time to elucidate. I have two hours now so I will list them. As you are taking the lead I am sharing my thoughts, bearing in mind that I am a poor subeditor this cannot be seen as definitive- indeed I criticise my own postings. Please delete when you have made a copy- sorry about the capitals but it was the easiest way to do this job quickly.ClemRutter 16:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

General

• Trivial facts promoted =TRIV=
• Important facts missed =IMPORT=
• inconsistencies between head and sections or sections and major article =INCONSIS=

• Two many sentences start with a subsidary clause where it should start with the subject or subject pronoun.=SUBSID=
• rambling subordinate clauses =RAMBLE=
• Sentences with the coordinating conjunction where the two halve relate to different sunjects =CONJ=
• through on in along etc wrongly used =PREP=
• nouns taking inappropiate verbs.=GOV=
• Verbs taking wrong object =VERB=
• incorrect shorthand such as 'Kent produced'=SH=
• lack of precision in dates and location =PRECISION=
• wrong word =USAGE=

Kent is the southeasternmost=NOT A WORD= county in England. Its county town is Maidstone and its only city=SH= is Canterbury, =RAMBLE= which is the seat of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Kent has land borders with East Sussex, Surrey and Greater London, and a defined boundary with Essex in the middle of the Thames estuary. The ceremonial county of Kent includes the unitary authority of Medway, and the administrative county of Kent. Kent has a nominal border with France halfway along =PREP= the Channel Tunnel.

Situated between the capital and the continent=SUBSID=, Kent =SH= is a primary trade route and has been in the front line of a number of conflicts=CONJ=, including the Battle of Britain in World War II. Through much of the past 800 years,=SUBSID= the county's ports had been relied upon to provide ships during times of war, especially the Cinque Ports in=PREP= the 12th–14th centuries and Chatham Dockyard in the 16th–20th centuries.=INCONSIST= The Cinque Ports were independant od the county

Kent is known as the Garden of England due to its agricultural influence=USAGE=, extensive=USAGE= orchards and hop-gardens. Cement, papermaking and aircraft construction have also been major industries in northwest Kent, although these are now in decline. Tourism and service industries have grown throughout the county=POV=Sheppey, Darford?= in recent years =MISSES THE DOCKYARD- the raison d'etre of Cement and engineering also wealden iron to provide dockyard cannons=.

History

The area has been occupied since the Lower Palaeolithic =USAGE= THIS IS A GEOLOGICAL LAYER NOT A TIME= as finds from the quarries at Swanscombe attest. During the Neolithic the Medway megaliths=TRIVIAL= were built and there is a rich sequence of Bronze Age, Iron Age and Roman occupation indicated by finds and features such as the Ringlemere gold cup=WHERE= and the Roman villas of the Darent valley.

The modern name of Kent is derived from the Brythonic=WHAT= word Cantus meaning a rim or border, being applied as a name to the eastern part of the current county area, and meaning border land or coastal district. Julius Caesar described it as Cantium, home of the Cantiaci in 51 BC.

The extreme west of the modern county was occupied by other Iron Age tribes; the Regnenses and possibly=PRECISION= another ethnic group occupying The Weald = AND EAST KENT=. East Kent became one =PRECISION=of the kingdoms of the Jutes during the 5th century and the area was later known as Cantia=REPETION= from about 730 and Cent in 835. The early mediaeval inhabitants of the county were known as the Cantwara or Kent people, whose capital was Canterbury.

Canterbury is the religious centre of the Anglican faith, and see of St Augustine of Canterbury.=FACT NOT HISTORY= Augustine is traditionally credited with bringing Christianity to the county=AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH= and thus to England in 597. Rochester is another of Kent's religious centres,=WHAT ARE THE REST= the see being founded in 604.

=SUBSID=Following the invasion of Britain by William of Normandy the people of Kent adopted the motto Invicta meaning undefeated and claiming that they had frightened the Normans out of the county. Although, in reality the Normans were only in Kent en route to London. Once London was reached, the Normans ignored most of East Kent =RAMBLE= due to attacks by peasants. As a result,=POV= Kent became a semi-autonomous County Palatine under William's half-brother Odo of Bayeux, with the special powers otherwise reserved for counties bordering Wales and Scotland.

=SUBSID= During the medieval and early modern period, Kent=SH= produced several of England's most notable rebellions. Kent provided the main force, led by Wat Tyler, for the Peasants' Revolt of 1381, as well as producing Jack Cade's Kent rebellion of 1450, and Wyatt's Rebellion of 1553 against Queen Mary I.

Canterbury became a great pilgrimage site=IT WAS BEFORE= following the martyrdom of Thomas Becket,=RAMBLE= who was eventually canonised in 1246. Canterbury's religious role gave rise to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, a key development in the rise of the written English language and ostensibly set in the countryside of Kent. Rochester had its own martyr, William of Perth, and in 1256 Lawrence, Bishop of Rochester travelled to Rome to obtain Williams canonisation.

The Royal Navy first used the River Medway in 1547 when a storehouse was rented on 'Jyllingham Water'. By the reign of Elizabeth I (1558–1603) a small dockyard had been established at Chatham. By 1618, storehouses, a ropewalk, a drydock and houses for officials had been built downstream from Chatham.

By the 17th century, tensions between Britain and the continental powers of the Netherlands and France led to increasing military build-up in the county. Forts were built all along the coast following a raid by the Dutch navy on the shipyards of the Medway towns in 1667.

The 18th Century was dominated with wars with France, and the Medway became the prime position to base a fleet that would act along the Dutch and French coasts. When the theatre of operation moved to the Atlantic, these roles were assumed by Portsmouth and Plymouth, and Chatham concentrated on shipbuilding and ship repair. Many of the Georgian naval buildings are still extant.=INCLUDE HERE BIT ON ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE IN KICK STARTING OTHER INUSTRIES= In peacetime the work force at Chatham Dockyard was reduced to a quarter of its wartime roll. As an indication of the area's military importance, the first Ordnance Survey map ever drawn was the one-inch map of Kent, published in 1801.

Chatham Dockyard built over 400 naval ships, including HMS Victory in the age of ship-of-the-line,=CONJ= ironclads such as HMS Africa, and 57 submarines. During World War II, Chatham refitted 1360 warships such as HMS Ajax. Charles Dickens' father worked in the Dockyard, leading to Chatham, Rochester and the Cliffe marshes featuring in many of his books=NEEDS TO BE BEFORE SUBMARINES=.

In the early 1800s, smugglers were very active on the =PRECISION= Kent coastline. Gangs such as The Aldington Gang brought spirits, tobacco and salt to Kent, and took goods such as wool across to France.

During World War II, much of the Battle of Britain was fought in the skies over the county. Between June 1944 and March 1945, over 10,000 V1 flying bombs, known as Doodlebugs, were fired on London from bases in Northern France. Many were destroyed by aircraft, anti-aircraft guns or barrage balloons, but around 2,500 fell on the capital and =PRECISION=almost the same number fell in Kent. These areas became known as Doodlebug Alley.

=NEED TO MENTON PRE 1830 EAST KENT AND WEST KENT- CANTERBURY AND MAIDSTONE= Kent's borders have changed several times over the years. In 1881, the County of London was created and the townships of Deptford, Greenwich, Woolwich, Lee, Eltham, Charlton, Kidbrooke and Lewisham were transferred out of Kent. Similarly, in 1965, the London Borough of Bromley and the London Borough of Bexley were created from nine towns formerly in Kent.

In 1998, Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham and Rainham left the administrative county of Kent to form the Unitary Authority of Medway. They have however remained in the ceremonial county of Kent. During this local government reorganisation, Rochester lost its official city status through an administrative oversight, but attempts to regain it are now being made.

Man of Kent or Kentish Man?

• =NOT A SUBSECTION OF HISTORY- PUT IT IN HEAD=

Kent is traditionally divided into West Kent and East Kent by approximately the River Medway. This division into east and west is reflected in the terms 'Men of Kent' for residents east of the Medway and 'Kentish Men' for those to the west. The female equivalents are 'Maid of Kent' and 'Kentish Maid'.

Physical geography

Kent is the southeastern=USAGE= most county in England. It is bounded on the north by the River Thames and the North Sea, and on the south by the Straits of Dover and the English Channel. The continent of Europe is a mere=POV= 21 miles (34 km) across the Strait.

The major geographical features of the county are determined by a series of ridges and valleys running east–west across the county. These are the results of weathering to the Wealden dome, a dome across Kent and Sussex created by Alpine movements 10–20 million years ago. The dome was formed of an upper layer of chalk above subsequent layers of upper greensand, upper clay, lower greensand, lower clay and red sandstone. The ridges and valleys formed due to exposed clay eroding at a faster rate than exposed chalk, greensand or red sandstone.

Sevenoaks, Maidstone, Ashford and Folkestone are built on greensand, while Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells are built on red sandstone. Dartford, Gravesend, the Medway towns, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Canterbury, Deal and Dover are built on chalk. The easterly section of the Wealden dome has been eroded away by the sea, and cliffs such as the white cliffs of Dover are present where a chalk ridge known as the North Downs meets the coast. From Dover to Westerham is the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.= AND THE WEALD=

• =I HAVE A GEOLOGICAL DIAGRAM THAT WAS REMOVED FROM HERE SEE COMMONS:CATEGORY NORTH DOWNS=

The Wealden dome is a Mesozoic structure lying on a Palaeozoic foundation, which usually creates the right conditions for coal formation. This is found in East Kent roughly between Deal, Canterbury and Dover. The coal measures within the Westphalian Sandstone are deep (below 244 m – 396 m) and subject to flooding. They occur in two major troughs, which extend under the English Channel =SH= =PRECISION= where similar coalfields are sited.

Seismic activity has occasionally been recorded in Kent, though the epicentre is offshore. In 1382 and 1580 there were two earthquakes exceeding 6.0 on the Richter Scale. In 1776, 1950 and 28 April 2007 there were earthquakes of around 4.3. The 2007 earthquake caused physical damage in Folkestone.

=WHAT USE IS THIS-WHAT DOES IT SHOW=

The coastline of Kent is continually changing, due to uplift and tidal erosion. Until about 960, the Isle of Thanet was an island, formed around a deposit of chalk. The channels silted up with alluvium. Similarly Romney Marsh and Dungeness have been formed by accumulation of alluvium.

Kent's principal river, the River Medway, rises near Edenbridge =PRECISION= and flows some 25 miles (40 km) eastwards to a point near Maidstone when it turns north. Here it breaks through the North Downs at Rochester before joining the River Thames as its final tributary near Sheerness. The river is tidal as far as Allington lock, =PRECISION= SEE YALDING= but in earlier times cargo-carrying vessels reached as far upstream as Tonbridge. The Medway has captured the head waters of other rivers such as the River Darent. There are other rivers in Kent, most notably the River Stour in the east.

Flora and fauna

The wide range of habitats in the area gives the county a rich variety of Kent’s plant and animal species. These habitats are the consequence of a combination of factors including climate, geology, relief and land use.

Kent Wildlife Trust=+OTHERS RSPB PLANTLIFE= manages the Local Wildlife Sites system in Kent, and manages over 60 wildlife reserves over the county of Kent. Kent houses a significant number of internationally important sites,=THIS IS UNLOCALISED PADDING THAT COULD BE PASTED ANYWHWERE LIKE SALE OR SUNDERLAND= including Special Protection Areas, Ramsar Wetlands, Special Areas of Conservation, Sites of Special Scientific Interest, National Nature Reserves, Environmentally Sensitive Areas, Local Wildlife Sites, Roadside Nature Reserves and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty.

Government

Kent County Council and its 12 district councils administer the majority of the county (3352 km²), while the unitary authority Medway Council administers the more densely populated remainder (192km²). Together they have around 300 town and parish councils. Kent County Council's headquarters are in Maidstone, while Medway's offices are in Strood and Gillingham.

=SUBSID=As of the 2005 county council elections, Kent County Council was controlled by the Conservative Party; 57 of the Council's 84 seats were held by the Conservatives, 21 by the Labour Party, six by the Liberal Democrats and one by an Independent. As of the 2007 local elections, all of Kent's district councils were controlled by the Conservatives except for Ashford Borough Council, which was in no overall control. Medway Council was controlled by the Conservatives; 33 of the Council's 55 seats were held by the Conservatives, 13 by the Labour Party, eight by the Liberal Democrats and one by an Independent.

At national level, Kent is represented in Parliament by seventeen MPs, ten of whom are Conservative and seven are Labour. Kent is in the European Parliament constituency of South East England, which elects ten Members of the European Parliament.=MEDWAY SPLIT NEEDS TO BE GIVEN=

Economy

=SUSID=As of the 2001 UK census, the economic activity of residents in the Kent, including Medway, was 41.1% in full-time employment, 12.4% in part-time employment, 9.1% self-employed, 2.9% unemployed, 2.3% students with jobs, 3.7% students without jobs, 12.3% retired, 7.3% looking after home or family, 4.3% permanently sick or disabled and 2.7% economically inactive for other reasons. 16% of the county's residents aged 16–74 had a higher education qualification or the equivalent, compared to 20% nationwide.

The average hours worked a week by residents of Kent in employment were 43.1 for males and 30.9 for females. Their industry of employment was 17.3% retail, 12.4% manufacturing, 11.8% real estate, 10.3% health and social work, 8.9% construction, 8.2% transport and communications, 7.9% education, 6.0% public administration and defence, 5.6% finance, 4.8% other community and personal service activities, 4.1% hotels and restaurants, 1.6% agriculture, 0.8% energy and water supply, 0.2% mining and 0.1% private households. =SUBSID=Compared to figures for the whole of England, Kent had a relatively high number of workers in construction and transport/communications, and had a relatively low number of workers in manufacturing.

The following chart shows the trend of the economic indicator gross value added (GVA) with figures in millions of British Pounds Sterling.

The district of Thanet has been regarded =IS IT NO LONGER= as one of the most disadvantaged areas in the southeast of England, whilst Kent's ports, Dover, Folkestone, Ramsgate and the Channel Tunnel, provide a lot of income to the county, and the two motorways provide links with the European continent and the remainder of the Great Britain.

Industries

• =INTERNAL CONSISTENCY=

North Kent is heavily industrialised with cement making at Northfleet and Cuxton, brickmaking at Sittingbourne, shipbuilding on the Medway and Swale, engineering and aircraft design and construction at Rochester, chemicals and papermaking at Dartford, and oil refining at Grain. There are two nuclear power stations at Dungeness, although the older one (built in 1965) was closed at the very end of 2006.

Kent is sometimes known as the Garden of England because of its agricultural influence, extensive =REPETITION= orchards and hop-gardens. Distinctive hop-drying buildings called oast houses are common in the countryside, although many have been converted into dwellings. Nearer London, market gardens also flourish.

Cement-making, paper-making, and coal-mining were important industries in Kent during the 19th and 20th century. Cement came to the fore in the 19th century when massive building projects were being undertaken=PRECISION=TIE TO MILITARY EXPENDITURE AT CHATHAM AND CIVIL EXPANSION IN LONDON=. The ready supply of chalk available, and huge pits between Stone and Gravesend bear testament to that industry. There were also other workings around Burham on the tidal Medway.

Kent's original paper mills stood on streams like the River Darent, tributaries of the River Medway, and on the River Stour. Two 18th-century mills were on the River Len and at Tovil on the River Loose. In the late 19th century huge modern mills were built at Dartford and Northfleet on the River Thames; and at Kemsley on The Swale.

From about 1900, several coal pits operated in East Kent. The East Kent coalfield was mined during the 20th century at several collieries, including Chislet, Tilmanstone, Betteshanger and the Snowdown Colliery which ran between 1908 and 1986.

In medieval times, the Weald was of national importance for its iron industry and cloth-making.=TO SEC TOP=

Transport

Roads

With the Roman invasion, a road network was constructed to contact London to the Channel Ports of Dover, Lympne and Richborough. The London–Dover road was Watling Street. These road are now=SH= approximately the A2, B2068, A257, and the A28. The A2 runs through Dartford (A207), Gravesend, Rochester, Canterbury and Dover. The A20 through Eltham, Wrotham, Maidstone, Charing, Ashford. Hythe, Folkestone and Dover. The A21 through Bromley, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells and on to Hastings in East Sussex. In 1960s, two motorways were built; the M2 from Medway to Faversham, and the M20 from Swanley to Folkestone. Part of the M25 runs through Kent, from Westerham to the Kent and Essex tunnel at Dartford. The Dartford tunnel has been joined by the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge, allowing four lanes in each direction.=AND THE M26=

Water

The medieval Cinque Ports of Sandwich, Dover, Hythe, Romney and Hasting, and later Rye and Winchelsea have now silted up with the exception of Dover=RAMBLE=, which is now a busy roll-on/roll-off ferry port. Ramsgate is a container port. The Medway Estuary has been an important port and naval base for 500 years. The River Medway is tidal up to Allington and navigable up to Tonbridge.=DATES NEEDED= There are two canals =IN=on Kent, the Royal Miliary Canal between Hythe and Rye, which is still extant, and the Thames and Medway Canal between Strood and Gravesend. Built in 1824, it was bought up by the railways in 1846 and=PARTALLY= backfilled.

Railways

The earliest locomotive driven, passenger carrying railway in Britain was the Canterbury and Whitstable Railway which opened in 1830. This and the London and Greenwich Railway later merged into South Eastern Railways =RAMBLE=(SER), and connected Kent's coast ports with the capital. By the 1850s, SER's networks soon expanded to =NO SUCH TOWN= Medway, Ashford, Ramsgate, Canterbury and Tunbridge Wells. SER's major London termini were London Bridge, Charing Cross and Cannon Street. Kent also had a second major railway, the London, Chatham and Dover Railway (LCDR). Starting out as the East Kent Railway in 1858, it linked the northeast Kent coast with London terminals at Victoria and Blackfriars.

The two companies merged in 1899, forming the South Eastern and Chatham Railway (SECR). In the aftermath of World War One, the government's Railways Act 1921 grouped railway companies together; the SECR joined neighbouring LBSCR and LSWR to form the Southern Railway. Britain's railways were nationalised in 1948, forming British Rail. The railways were privatised again in 1996 and most Kent passenger services became run by Connex South Eastern. Connex has since been replaced by Southeastern.

The Channel Tunnel was completed in the 1990s and was connected by a high speed link to London Waterloo via Ashford International. In late 2007, the London terminus will move from Waterloo to St Pancras and an extra station, Ebbsfleet International, will open between Dartford and Gravesend in Kent.

In addition to the "mainline" railways there are several light, heritage and industrial railways in Kent. There are three heritage, standard gauge railways; Spa Valley Railway near Tunbridge Wells on the old Tunbridge Wells West branch, East Kent Railway on the old East Kent coalfield area and the Kent and East Sussex Railway on the Weald around Tenterden. In addition there is the 15 inch gauge, tourist oriented Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch Railway on the southeast Kent coast along the Dungeness peninsular and the 2ft 6in, ex industrial Sittingbourne & Kemsley Light Railway.

Air

• =pov= =IF RYANAIR DOESN'T FLY THERE IT IS A AIRFIELD OR AN ASPIRATION- KENT IS POORLY SERVED BEING 2 HOURS FROM HEATHROW AND LUTON (FROM STROOD) AND VIGOROUS FOUGHT THE SILLY (pov)PROPOSAL AT CLIFFE

Kent has London Biggin Hill Airport, Kent International Airport at Manston and London Ashford Airport at Lydd. A limited number of charter flights and private jets use London Ashford Airport and London Biggin Hill Airport, while Kent International Airport =VERB= sees charters and air freight. However, most passengers across the South East use the larger Heathrow, Gatwick, Stanstead and Luton airports.

Education

• =HERE WE HAVE PROBLEMS AS THE PRINCIPAL CAUSE OF UNDERACHIEVEMENT IN KENT SCHOOLS IS THE FACT THAT 77% OF STUDENT GO TO SECONDARY MODERNS= BUT MENTION THAT AND YOU HAVE A FIRESTORM FROM ENTRENCHED INTERESTS

=WHICH IS INCOMPLETE=

The county has three universities; Canterbury Christ Church University, University of Kent with campuses in Canterbury and Medway, and University of Greenwich with sites at Woolwich, Eltham and Medway. Whereas much of the UK adopted a comprehensive education system in the 1970s, Kent County Council and Medway Unitary Authority are among around 15 local authorities still providing wholly selective education through the eleven-plus, High Schools and Grammar Schools. Together, the two Kent authorities have 38 of the 164 Grammar Schools remaining in the UK.

KCC has the largest education department of any local authority in the UK, providing school places for over 289,000 pupils.

From the 2005-06 school year, KCC and Medway introduced the standardised school year, based on six terms, as recommended by the Local Government Association following its 2000 report, "The Rhythms of Schooling",=REPETITIVE= and its key recommendation that the six-term pattern would better meet the learning needs of children in the 21st century.

Between September 2003 and August 2004, 70% of pupils in the Kent authority achieved Key Stage 2 Level 4 in mathematics, compared to 74% of pupils in England as a whole. 74% of pupils achieved Key Stage 2 Level 4 in English, compared to 78% of pupils nationally. 56% of pupils achieved five or more GCSE A*–C grades or the equivalent, compared to 54% nationally.

As of the 2001 census, the highest academic qualification attained by residents aged between 16 and 74 in the Kent LEA area was 16.8% a higher education qualification or the equivalent, 8.0% two or more A-levels or the equivalent, 21.0% five or more GCSE grades A*–C or the equivalent, and 18.2% one or more GCSEs passes or the equivalent. 28.3% had no qualifications and 7.7% had a qualification of an unknown level.

CULTURE

• =THIS SECTION IS MISSING= NEEDS SOME DICKENS, JAMES, GOLDING, TURNER, MORRIS, SPENCERLEY, PRATT ETC=

Kent - railways

Hi, No problem, I just wondered why you removed the RH&DR photo from this section. Was there something wrong with it? Regards, Lynbarn 22:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Margate F.C.

Thanks for the kind words! ChrisTheDude 07:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Shaw and Crompton

Thank you for your kind contributions and support with the Shaw and Crompton article. It's been a pet project of mine for some time (though I discourage personal ownership of course!).

I'd be surprised if the article reaches FA status, though undoubtedly the feedback during the nomination will be helpful none-the-less. Hope all is well, Jhamez84 22:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Eastbourne GA nomination

Thank you for taking the time to look at the Eastbourne article, which is currently being worked on to address the issues you raised. You tagged the article as on hold with a latest deadline of technically Friday evening. As this is my first active nomination so I am not too sure of the procedure.

The bulk of the remaining work is finding citations for various statements. I estimate we will probably get half of the statements cited by Friday. The remainder will necessitate a visit to the local library, but I doubt anyone will get a chance before next Saturday, after the deadline

My question is what do we do? Is the deadline strict or can we hold out for a couple more days? Will the missing ones fail us, even though they should follow within a couple of days. Should we just remove the uncited statements? This would lose chunks of the article, although we know the statements are correct and eventually citable. Any advise please. MortimerCat 23:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the extension. We have addressed all the issues you raised, and are ready for the completion of your review. MortimerCat 13:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs, Florida GA assessment

I have begun to address the issues you cited in your assessment, but I do have a quibble with the last one. You suggest converting the list of famous natives to prose form. Can you give me an example of where this has been done? I took a look at about 10 cities in the list of good articles (all North American) and noted that most of had an external list (usually linked in "See Also", or had a list similar to what is in place here. I'd prefer not to eliminate the list entirely, but with only eight names, a separate list would not survive an AfD (it would likely get merged back into the article). None of them had a listing in prose form as you have suggested. I know that prose is generally preferred over lists, but there are times when a list is appropriate, and this might be one of those times. Examples of GA cities with similar lists in the main article include Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, Duluth, Minnesota, Grand Forks, North Dakota and Newark, New Jersey, (which should really be turned into an external list). Any thoughts on this? Horologium t-c 14:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, two of us have made the changes you suggested. Take a look at the new and improved article. Horologium t-c

Thanks for your assistance; the article does look better! Horologium t-c 22:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Vanadanite

Hi

I see you have already noticed that I started a GA review on your suggestion Vanadanite. I placed it on hold so a number of minor things could be enhanced. This is my first GA review, so you may wish to review my review! GB 07:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks as if most issues are addressed! 1.2 1.4 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 3.1 all covered. Still there is nothing about mines or limited amount on 'roasting'.

'Heating of vanadium ore or residues from other processes with salt NaCl or sodium carbonate Na2CO3 at about 850°C gives sodium vanadate NaVO3. This is dissolved in water and acidified to give a red solid which in turn is melted to form a crude form of vanadium pentoxide V2O5. Reduction of vanadium pentoxide with calcium gives pure vanadium. ' -- is found in the vanadium article.

In Vanadium there is this:

'Vanadium was originally discovered by Andrés Manuel del Río (a Spanish-born Mexican mineralogist) in Mexico City, in 1801. He called it "brown lead" (now named vanadinite).' — if this is really talking about vanadinite then this should be in this article. It seems a bit inconsistent with the 1838 date in Vanadinite. GB 21:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Aston Villa F.C. dates and dashes

In several goes I have put the – in the article and I have sorted out the dates as requested. I have not put the en dash into the wikilinks as it would disrupt the link. Any other comments then please let me know, thanks. Woodym555 21:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Coral Springs, Florida

Hi, Epbr123. I would like to ask if you could give an unofficial review on CS, aiming for an A status(I am trying to learn my Misplaced Pages ABCs :-) ). I added some content and master editor Horologium gave a it a good edit. Adding more content is a bit risky, because there is not much to add and the article can become a fluff-filled ad. Please let me know if it is possible. Thanks in advance! --Legionarius 22:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

		Thank you for your support and comments at my RfA
		Hi Epbr123, It still amazes me that otherwise "anonymous" editors take the time to place !votes and comments on RfAs. Whilst I would have normally thanked you at the time of you leaving your message, the importance of my not appearing to be canvassing prevented me from so doing. Now that everything has progressed successfully I can finally thank you. I intend to uphold a style of good adminship and will welcome your further comments at any time in the future, even if they are in the form of admonishment. I will be happy to help as an admin wherever and whenever I can --VS 23:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Providence, Rhode Island FAC

Hi. You opposed FA status for this article citing problems with publishing dates of web sources being incorrect. I would gladly fix these, but I don't know to which you refer. Thanks.--Loodog 02:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

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• Rubbish. Epbr123 09:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

GA review review

HI Epbr123

I see you have done quite a few GA reviews. I have passed the Vanadinite, you probably thought it deserved to be passed too, but how did I go with the correct GA procedure? GB 00:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Your review was excellent. The article clearly didn't pass the "broad in coverage" criteria at first. I'm glad it was reviewed by someone with knowledge of the subject. Thanks for the further recommendations; it seems there's still quite a lot left to do. Epbr123 00:25, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Motorcycle

Motorcycle was put up for WP:GAC a month ago and I hoped it might be reviewed a little faster as I see many articles are done within a week or so. Anyway, while Fritzpoll indicated he started the review, more than a week ago he posted that he would complete it by last Monday as other things got in the way. However, he now seems rather inactive for the last week, so I wonder if there is any way we can move this along at this stage? Perhaps you would post your reply here TIA ww2censor 13:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

East Carolina University

Hello, because of your lengthy past for helping articles achieve GA and FA status, I am asking if you could give East Carolina University a peer-review. I want to add the article to the Good article candidates list. Thank you, PGPirate

• Thank you for the review of East Carolina University. When you wrote "There shouldn't really be bold text or external links within the prose." are you referring to when text such as East Carolina Teachers Training School is bolded? Should it be italized instead? Also with the external links, is a wiki red-link better? Thanks - PGPirate
• Thank you again. Minus adding more information in the administration section, do you see anything else that would keep this article from reaching GA status? Also, what could I add into the Administration section? Thanks, PGPirate

GA medal of merit

Thanks for the award. Hopefully your "reviewer of the week" campaign will get more people to contribute, this backlog is getting too long. I was thrilled to turn to my watchlist to see your award and also one of my GACs get passed as well. Anyway, thank you again and keep up the good work. --Nehrams2020 20:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to introduce myself

Having read some of your comments on the Sale talk page, I'm a little concerned with your approach to editing, using talk pages, and using edit summaries - particularly with regards to WP:OWN.

Your message to me seems to suggest that I'm an inept or sub-standard contributor and that the contributor who you favour (User:Tony1) is somehow better than I. Well, let me tell you that I set up the Greater Manchester WikiProject, wrote most of the UK and England articles as well as Greater Manchester, Historic counties of England, Shaw and Crompton formulated the UK place infoboxes, drew all the county maps you use to point to the settlements, co-wrote the UK settlement guidelines and have tens of thousands upon thousands of edits to my former account about UK geography.

With the attitude you have, taken against me and a number of other editors I notice, you categorically will not acheive FA standard with that article. Not a chance. There are too many serious contextual problems.

You had a sub-section called "Geography" under the "Geography and administration" title which was totally redundant. You had material about Greater Manchester on the Sale article which was unfocussed (keep the article on topic - don't go into topics about the Earth or wider geography). You have specific dates in the lead about the Bridgewater Canal that even the Bridgewater Canal doesn't; the second paragraph in the lead is not of a professional standard of encyclopedic writing (e.g. "many residents still commute to other areas of Greater Manchester" - do they? how many? why? is it relevant? just Greater Manchester?; " Sale dates back probably before the Norman invasion" - in what way? probably? invasion is a POV term.) Why have stuff about the climate and geology of Greater Manchester on Sale? No other serious encyclopedia would do this.

User:Malleus Fatuarum (Eric) raises some very valid points about the context of some statements; I'm sure he has the article's best interests at heart and I'd certainly like to see you engage with some of his ideas.

And for the record, Sale is not a city, and that user whom you cite as a top reviewer is in my view forcing US city guidelines upon British towns which in the past has been turned down by editors of Sheffield (an FA city). This edit is grammatically strange, and inconsistent with much of the UK... and, is hardly an advanced or incredibly scholarly edit to make by anyone or any standards.

I'm not one to grumble, but when I find someone experienced and helpful, and aiding in improving articles, I don't revert them and send them messages about how other users are better than them. I must urge you to allow other users to contribute to articles and to work to a compromise if a user raises concerns. Jza84 01:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• You reverted User:Tony1's edit, so take it up with him. To address your other points, the subsection headings are part of the Wikiproject Ukgeography guidelines; I opposed the headings but User:Malleus Fatuarum insisted on using them. All city articles have to include a brief mention the geography and climate, even if its similar to nearby areas. If you had read the article, you will know why the word "probably" is needed. I used the word "city" because its easier than writing city, town, village, hamlet, nighbourhood, district, ward, constituency or settlement. "many residents still commute to other areas of Greater Manchester" is relevant as Sale used to be mainly a commuter town. Also, User:Tony1 is not American. I can understand why you are upset, but for your own sake, please try to learn from more experienced editors rather than attacking them. Epbr123 08:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

No. You reverted my quality edits, so I'm taking it up with you. You've not addressed any of the issues in hand. You're taking sole ownership of the article, not working with editors, and compromising the quality of that article to chase FA when it is not ready. Sale is not a city, and you're using citation for geography and geology for Greater Manchester (i.e. central Manchester) not Sale.

There is no such heading in the UK geog guidelines - you're making sweeping falsifications.

For the record, I'm not attacking anyone (that statement itself is a personal attack), and I am a far more experience editor than both User:Tony1 and yourself, and have made much bigger a contribution to Misplaced Pages. I have to say I very much share Erics concerns here. Jza84 11:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm very frightened about your recent contributions against me. You're bullying me, saying I'm an unuseful editor and following my edits. I think I need assistance if you are going to continue persecuting me when all I want to do is improve articles. Please read WP:CIVIL. Jza84 15:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm just trying to keep the article I nominated for FA in good shape. BTW its regarded as incivil to refer people to WP:CIVIL. Epbr123 15:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"... compromising the quality of that article to chase FA when it is not ready...". That sums up perfectly my objections to what's been happening to the Sale, Greater Manchester article. It had just regained GA status, it wasn't ready for an FA nomination, and the edits being made were largely being made for all the wrong reasons, to squirm through the FA criteria, not to improve the article. I also have felt persecuted by Epbr123, when like you, Jza84, all I've tried to do is to improve articles. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

And just to wrap this up, I'd make a very similar complaint against Epbr123 for nominating the Stretford article for GA status. It wasn't ready for a GA review, although it may perhaps be now. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

"it wasn't ready for an FA nomination", "to squirm through the FA criteria" - could you make your personal attacks a little more consistant, please? They're a bit hard to counter otherwise. You first said the article isn't good enough for FA; you then said the article is good enough but you don't value the FA criteria! I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to defend the article or the FA process. Thanks. Epbr123 09:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Demographics

Try this. I got some UK census data from here (which lists Sale independently) and wrote what I would like to see in a Demographics section. I got rid of the sequential lists that languished onto 0.3%...etc. and stuck with the dominant statitistic and provided a more complete profile, with households, marriage status, etc. All the info there is real (from the census data) and you can verify it but you are on your own for referencing (maybe it could be referenced to the general UK census?) the spreadsheets examples: education (btw I don't know what "qualifications" mean), marital status, households, etc. Trafford is listed here and specifically age, etc. --maclean 09:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

In use

Hello, would you be kind enough just to hang back with the edits to Shaw and Crompton - there is a tag in place. You're doing some good work, but it's likely to be editted out as part of a wider edit.

I'm not here for ideological debates and edit wars, I think you've done some great work, but you seem to be taking this very personally. I extend this opportunity for us to work together here. Jza84 15:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• I would be very happy to work with you. Epbr123 15:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I've left a reply at Talk:Shaw and Crompton - I think I make a good case for two much needed articles here. Also, looking at some comments on the FA nominations, it seems to me that we need very localised maps to aid in writing about the "built environment", and how the towns are contructed and centred - I may be able to produce something for both Sale and S&C. Jza84 21:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Brazil page length

Hello again.

We were discussing the length of Brazil’s page but you haven’t replied my last post so I’m reposting it here.

You said:

• Article length isn't part of the “good article” criteria. There has to be a limit to article size for the sake of people with slow computers. Due to "History of Brazil", "Geography of Brazil", "Climate of Brazil" etc. there's no need for the article to be this long. It should be a summary of those sub-articles. Epbr123 16:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

My reply was:

• Although it’s possible to reduce the article size, you are proposing we remove about 35% of its current contents. That’s not going to be something very easy to carry out. Perhaps it would be interesting if you could actually point out which areas you think have been overdone. I agree there’s still a lot of work we need to do here, but I disagree about this page being too lengthy. All the information currently summarized in the article seems pretty basic to me. Again, I kindly ask you to point out which sections you think should be made shorter or scrapped altogether. Sparks1979 19:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if you could effectively help editors by mentioning which areas of the article you believe should be reviewed with the scope of eliminating text.

Sparks1979 14:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Sale

I've made m edits, including wikilinking to sports that I think people would be interested in knowing more about (5-a-line & bowl). The article served as a good primer on standard UK articles for me. =) moar support! Soulrefrain 00:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible new guidelines

Following discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, I've written some possible new guidelines based on what's avaliable at WP:CITIES - I think they're a great improvement, but would like your input and blessing, and a confirmation I've not overlooked anything.

The guidelines I'm proposing at avaliable to view at my sandbox, though if you could pass comment here rather than directly to me, (just so everyone can see for the future) that would be great. Hope all is well, Jza84 10:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks for the Barnstar. I have made some mistakes in my copy-edit, it wasn't perfect (centre=centre), but thank you for being generous and giving the Barnstar anyway. :D Erythromycin 15:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Sale

I've been a little pushed for time over the past few days. I'll try and have a look through it on Monday. Yomangani 22:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

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Sale, Greater Manchester

Thank you for the comment you left for me on my Talk page. When I read the article, I thought the language could better reflect the obvious interest of the topic. Now that it's sunk in that you're trying for FA status, I think I'll continue to spend time on the language, and I'd certainly be happy to give you more in the way of constructive criticism about content if you'd like. Maybe you can help me out with at least one question, though (and I may have others soon!): where do I find the WP page on "inappropriate shorthand"?

I hate to say it, but I'm going to be pretty much unavailable for the next few days. I'll try to get back to you and the article on July 11. Take care, and thanks again--esp. for your help! Scrawlspacer 20:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness

I did my limited copy editing. You want to look at the following: 'mains water was installed' is a English phrase that few Americans might understand. This might render in the US as 'water mains were installed' meaning 'large water pipes were installed'. Maybe some rewording would satisfy both dialects. Also, I noticed in the transportation section is that rail lines to the town are discussed, but the town is listed as being on an island. Some discussion of railroad bridges might be in order if that is how the railways get to the town. And is there water transport to the island? Hope this helps. Hmains 19:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy to proofread the article. Probably starting now, if I'm not distracted... Quendus 19:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Just a line to say thanks for your work on the improvement of WP:UKCITIES! Together I think we've created something really great here. Hope you're happy with me applying this to a few of our articles??

Let me know if you'd like my input on any of your work, Jza84 23:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the Barnstar

Thank you for the barnstar. Let me know any time you need help with copy editing. Jehochman 01:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Sheerness FAC

Sure, I'd be happy to help! I've been ramping up my copyediting activities lately, especially on FACs and FARs, because I hate it when articles fail FAC solely because of copyediting issues. szyslak 07:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll also be taking a look at the Sheerness FAC... thanks for asking me - always like to be involved in anything grammar-related  :) --Christian B 15:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Having being asked for anymore ways to improve, the lead and the rest of the article could be expanded. However, the article is well-done, I know copy-editing is very important. Showmanship is the key 16:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello. Per your request, I will copyedit Sheerness. I've just given it a first read and posted some general suggestions for improvement on its talk page; will get to the actual copyedit soon. Maralia 19:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Kent

I'd be happy to look at the Kent article. Dureo 14:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

9th July Second edit- job well done.ClemRutter 21:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

First edit- infobox- what is your reasoning for removing the MPs ( they are there in the Dorset FA) and the infobox politics section is wrong. Kent is not run by K.C.C. but Medway Council and K.C.C.- so more work needed there.ClemRutter 21:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• Disagree. I think Dorset is a stronger argument than one opinion. As I have said- Kent is bigger than Luxembourg- so Kent naturally has more MPs- its not our fault! I think you should restore. ClemRutter 23:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Your growing Grammar and layout checklist is really useful.ClemRutter 21:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Have gone over and made some slight changes, let me know if anything glares at you. Dureo 03:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

GAC backlog

I asked Nehrams2020 to help start another GAC backlog elimination drive. Nehrams2020 asked me to invite you to co-ordinate the drive as well. Basically it's very similar to last time, only a few things different than before. First, the drive has a duration of a month. Second, more awards to be handed out. Nehrams2020 will be doing the advertising, while I'll be figuring out a good scale for different awards and page creation. Feel free to dive in and help either one, or do something that we forgot to do. OhanaUnited 19:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Be bold, feel free to add the explanation into the drive's page. I'm not good at explaining instructions :/ OhanaUnited 10:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It started! Run for your life! (just joking...) OhanaUnited 04:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Compass tables

Hi, just want to say thanks for your hard work of late, again particularly the continued refinements on the WP:UKCITIES guidelines which I think are set to be very, very helpful for a great many articles.

On "Compass tables" - what are your thoughts? Are you a fan or not? I'm coming round to including one on Shaw and Crompton and elsewhere. Jza84 22:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• User:Ddstretch persuaded me to add the compass tables. They're quite useful but they have their limitations and I wouldn't recommend every city article having one. They can be misleading as they don't indicate the distances between the areas, and its difficult to judge whether to include the surrounding villages and districts or just the surrounding towns. Epbr123 22:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Sale, Greater Manchester copy-edit

Hi. I'm sorry to bother you, but as a LoCE member, I just wondered if you would be willing to have a look through the Sale, Greater Manchester article. It is currently a Featured Article Candidate and needs a copy-edit for grammar by someone who hasn't yet seen it. Any other ways to improve the article would also be welcome. Thank you very much, if you can. Epbr123 08:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I looked and the article is fine - it was apparnetly copy-edited by 3 LoCE members last week. Cheers, JenLouise 01:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

		What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
		What a Brilliant Idea! Cutting 10kb of the Social class in the United States just by modifying the reference mark-up. Thanks for your great work! Signature 17:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

-1 =0?

If 2=1 then you can apply all sorts of mathematics to eventually prove that -1 = 0:

2= 1

so

1 = 0 by subtracting one from each side

and then multiply both sides by -1:

-1 = 0. However, I did not say I was going to prove taht 1= 0 I said 2 = 1. Tourskin 00:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Kent FAC

Hi. I'm sorry to bother you, but as a LoCE member, I just wondered if you would be willing to have a look through the Kent article. It is currently a Featured Article Candidate and needs a copy-edit for grammar by someone who hasn't yet seen it. Any other ways to improve the article would also be welcome. Thank you very much, if you can. Epbr123 21:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi there. I'll take a look at the article tonight (I'm going to work right now), but a quick glance tells me it should pretty much be okay. I'll let you know once I've done some checking up. :) —msikma (user, talk) 06:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Epbr123, Please see my response to you on my talk page. 08:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness FAC

Hi. Thanks for writing and letting me know. I need some help on this FAC. I will do a copyedit. The comments are very much appreciated. And, you're welcome. Greg Jones II 12:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Shaw and Crompton FAC

Sorry, I am working a long day today and will be out of town this weekend so almost certainly won't have time. Good luck with it. --Margareta 14:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You beat me to it to contact the copyeditors! Thanks ever so much for the support! Jza84 15:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for spotting the vandalism warning. I've raised my concerns at the admin noticeboard, as I feel this is becoming a little targetted against me and that article. Jza84 18:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

-Whoops! Sorry Epbr123! Wrong user! My apologies. Jza84 18:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

FAC

I will be happy to review the Sheerness article. I will get back to you when I'm done. Politics rule 14:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Like wise. I will do a review of the article. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 18:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Sale, Greater Manchester FAC

Hi. I'm sorry to bother you, but as a LoCE member, I just wondered if you would be willing to have a look through the Sale, Greater Manchester article. It is currently a Featured Article Candidate and needs a copy-edit for grammar by someone who hasn't yet seen it. Any other ways to improve the article would also be welcome. Thank you very much, if you can. Epbr123 07:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't get to that sooner-- my internet connection was down for a while. Looks like you already got someone. Anyway, I would assume this was an accident, rather than ignorance, since you aren't a n00b, but you posted that message on my userpage, not my talkpage. First of all, that wasn't the place for it, and second of all, I probably wouldn't have seen it if I wasn't working on my page. :) No hard feelings, obviously. Sorry I couldn't get to Sale sooner. justice 16:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Kent

I'll take a look at it this weekend. No problem. --rocketrye12 20:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness

Haven't forgotten about your request. I've posted on the WikiProject grammar talk page, but haven't gotten a reply on the guidelines for copy-editing a GA seeking FA status. Is it possible that you could point me in the correct direction? Abernethyj 02:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Electricity

Hi. My message to you of earlier today may have gone astray. I've been reading Sheerness and suggesting a few minor changes. My electricity was down most of the day, though, and I was off-line. I'll continue with Sheerness tomorrow. Thanks for asking for help. I'm enjoying the article. Finetooth 03:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Shaw and Crompton copyediting

Thanks for asking me to copyedit the Shaw and Crompton article as part of its FAC. I read through it tonight and made mostly minor changes throughout, e.g., comma usage, changing "which" to "that" at times, etc. I'm American, so my knowledge of the British usage of the English language is not perfect—feel free to fix any mistakes I may have made. I personally prefer the Oxford comma, and the first series I saw in the article included it. I thus added that comma to all the other lists in the article. Hope you don't mind! Esrever 06:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit request for Shaw and Crompton

thanks for the request.....i'm still new to wiki and tryin to get a firm grip on the wiki MoS so it might take some time for copyediting the article....but i'll definitely do my best to copyedit it....Gprince007 07:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness FAC

Thank you very much for contacting me about the Sheerness FAC. Due to real life matters, I'm not sure I'll be able to get to reviewing this article in time for its current candidacy, but please keep me in mind for future requests. Keesiewonder 10:21, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

Thank you very much for the barnstar for GA reviewing. I like your "Checklist" for articles, by the way. There should be a useful place to post that - it is really quite good. Awadewit | talk 10:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Belarus Constitution FAC

On second thought, I reduced the lead by a sentence, I removed most of the dubious wikilinks and fixed the percentage stuff. However, I have a question about the date linking. Does this extend to the references or just the article text? User:Zscout370 08:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Your Jackie Chan Fac Review

I think you could help work on this one since you had innitially made suggestions for changes to be made, and it had been done. As for your contest, i think you might want to further clarify as per wiki policy, on why the article hadn't met Fac standards. Surely a proper explaination could be provided for it, as in the article must have infringe some Fac standard and should be corrected, we would like to know what it is so as to make the necessary corrections.--DaliusButkus 07:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Tel Aviv GA

Thanks for the GA review. I have attempted to fix all of the issues you outlined and have made comments where I was unsure. If you could take another look at it now, I would really appreciate it.--Flymeoutofhere 08:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've looked over those points.--Flymeoutofhere 10:43, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've cited all the residents.--Flymeoutofhere 12:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Added additional fields to citations where applicable--Flymeoutofhere 19:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and pass.--Flymeoutofhere 08:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Mani Madhava Chakyar to GA

Thanks for copy editing the article which s currently a GA nominee..Looking forward your co operation..Thanks Sreekanthv 09:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

SNES FAC

I have addressed the two examples you left, and KieferSkunk (someone unfamiliar with the article) and I have been working on copyediting the rest of the article. I would appreciate it if you could join in with further examples and review the changes made so far to determine if we are doing a good enough job. Thanks! Anomie 19:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

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New stubs

Hi Epbr123 - good to see a few new stub articles on villages in Kent, and good to see you put a stub template on them, too. It might be worth you knowing that there are separate geography stub types for each English county now, so you can use {{Kent-geo-stub}} rather than {{UK-geo-stub}} if you want. It'll make it a little easier for editors to find any more new articles you write. Keep up the good work :) Grutness...wha? 00:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

By the Way

Greatly appreciate the copyedit. Best wishes, NSR77 _C 14:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

GA medal

Thank you. I've been enjoying my most recent mini-project enormously so to receive your backing and thanks is an unexpected but delightful bonus. Cheers! The Rambling Man 15:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness‎ FAC

Hi. I'm sorry to bother you, but as a Wikiproject Grammar member, I just wondered if you would be willing to have a look through the Sheerness‎ article. It is currently a Featured Article Candidate and needs a copy-edit for grammar by someone who hasn't yet seen it. Any other ways to improve the article would also be welcome. Thank you very much, if you can. Epbr123 17:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry for my late reply... I really had a very bad health problem this past few weeks. Same reason why I was inactive from Misplaced Pages... Hope you understand. I will be very much likely to do this favor for you... I shall soon send you my assessment. Thanks and good luck!

  Thanks. I hope you're feeling better now. Epbr123 00:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Fort Lauderdale, Florida GA assessment

Okay, I have worked through that enormous list of suggested changes you left at Talk:Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and I have incorporated all of your suggestions. Please take a look at the page now, and let us know if it meets your requirements for GA status. Thank you. Horologium t-c 17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

1a and redundancy

I like it! Tony 00:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Alan Kippax

Thanks for your review of the biog on cricketer Alan Kippax. I have addressed the problems that you raised on the project page. However, I have not altered the hyphens used in the cricket seasons (eg. 1928-29) as I believe that what exists complies with the style guide at WP:Cricket, I quote: "When referring to a cricket season spanning two years, use an hyphen (or an en dash) and the last two digits of the second year as in International cricket in 2005-06 or New Zealand cricket team in Zimbabwe in 2005-06. However, if the years do not begin with the same two digits, write out the full year: 1899-1900." 59.101.198.148 03:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

All changes requested have been made.59.101.198.148 09:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Pipe organ and WP:CRICKET

Hi,

Thanks for your comments on the Pipe organ FAC - it's always useful when a fresh pair of eyes spots things like that.

On a separate note, I have just seen that you rightly edited the guidelines of WP:CRIC regarding year spanning and the endash - do you know what happens when these are used in an article title/section heading? using the endash (2005–06) conflicts with guidelines that say 'don't use &%$"(£&$ etc in section headings (presumably because it makes searching and anchored links really difficult to manage). Should the hyphen therefore be incorrectly used in its place?

–MDCollins (talk) 23:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Moncton GA Review

Hello, thanks for the review. I went through and fixed all (well almost all) the problems you pointed out (the other thing is explained on the talk page). Thanks again!

Stu pendousmat 02:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the pass! I was just wondering if you have any suggestions for getting the article to FA status?

Stu pendousmat 19:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

CBOTB FAC

Thanks for your attention to the Chicago Board of Trade Building. I believe I have met your points of opposition. I would appreciate your reconsideration.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:37, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry. I did not notice your second list. I have a bit more to do.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 17:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I have done my best to meet your request. A couple things were not things I can really do and they are so noted. In particular, I do not know how to cite a movie, I can not find someone else's obscure claim and I would appreciate help correcting stubby sections. I think you should be satisfied with my other edits.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 22:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Urgent Help for Copy editing Kaziranga National Park in FAC

Kindly help in Copy editing Kaziranga National Park which is currently in FAC. I had put it up in WP:LOCE in April 2007, but still now no one have noticed. I need your urgent help in cpediting the article, as i am not so good in doing it. The article has no other issue but cpedit, i gurantee u that a fine refinement will help a lot. Amartyabag 06:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

729

Yes; I'm trying to get those numbers people at MOSNUM to disentangle the square metres versus metres squared thing; should it be explicated conceptually and in terms of rendering on WP? I'm interested in your input when, within 24 h, I implement the draft at MOSNUM, and then, in part, at MOS-central. Need feedback before doing the big one at MOS-central (which has been forewarned, all the same). At the FAC in question, I'm not going to back down on 1a; Giano and I maintain something of a truce, and even do good turns for one another on occasion. And there was Raul's unwise statement that appeared not to support the exemplification of defects in a window of prose to demonstrate that the whole thing needs copy-editing. Perhaps I misinterpreted his statement. Pleased that you've weighed in, because the more we have to prod and poke about bad writing, the better. Tony 14:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Kate Bush photo

I notice you put both GFDL and Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 notices on Image:KateBushComicRelief.png, but in the link to the forum the photographer only seems to agree to the GFDL. I'm going to remove the other one pending clarification.--Pharos 17:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Question

Do you have any opinions about Rugby, Warwickshire? I've tried to apply WP:UKCITIES, but a "regular" editor of the article believes we should use "organic" (Quote) structures and reverted it.... It's not a revert war, but as you were involved in the construction of the guidelines, and have experience in bringing articles upto scratch I wondered what you made of this. Jza84 23:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sheerness

Congratulations on the promotion of this article, and thank you for the barnstar. Jehochman 18:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

John Mayer FA promotion

I want to thank you for your assistance in bringing the John Mayer article to FA. It means the culmination of almost two years of work for me, and wouldn't have been possible without help from the WP community. Thanks again.--Esprit15d 12:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Kate Bush Get Out Of My House Sample.ogg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Kate Bush Get Out Of My House Sample.ogg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

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Peru

Thanks for your comments and suggestions at the Peru FAC. I think most have been addressed now, though I have a doubt, please check the nomination page. Greetings, --Victor12 23:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Postage stamps of Ireland

Just a quick thank you for participating in the Postage stamps of Ireland FAC. Your input was very useful and I have learned a lot from the process. Whether you raised issues, assisted with some cleanup, opposed or supported the article, thanks again for all you do for Misplaced Pages. ww2censor 15:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Autism fixes

Thanks for your review and comment about Autism. I made fixes along the lines you suggested. Eubulides 16:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Restarted FAC

Debate has been restarted at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Chicago Board of Trade Building and your voice has not been heard.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

GAC backlog elimination drive

As we are very close to the end of backlog elimination drive, it's time for us to vertify that every single review follows GA criteria. Now I need to deliver some news to you, I will be on a trans-Pacific flight on August 13 so I will not be able to start vertifying the moment the clock reaches August 13. We also need to organize a way so that we can complete vertification as fast as possible without any overlapping. My suggestion is to place a check mark (i.e.  Done) in front of each article vertified. Any with doubts are marked with  Question: . Does this sound good to you? OhanaUnited 16:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Time isn't a big factor. I will leave a big message on the page 3 days prior to the drive's closing. This way everyone will have enough time to submit their updated list. We can work from there. OhanaUnited 16:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm back (yay!). Now let's get started on checking reviews. I would say that it's safe to skip reviews by me, you, and Nehrams2020 because we're very familiar with the process. Remember to be bold and delist GAs if the quality of the article needs major improvement. OhanaUnited 14:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

On the prose of Jackie Chan (FAC related)

Jackie Chan's article has been copyedited a number of times by several editors now. I've read it several times, and couldn't find any problems. Would you mind read the article once more to check the prose please? Thanks.--Kylohk 00:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Blyth, Northumberland GA review

Hi Epbr123, thanks for the review of Blyth, Northumberland. I've made the fixes you suggested and added a geography section. I've been unable to add any geology info to that section, but will be working on that in future. I think i've got the rest of it covered though. Thanks again. Dbam /_{Contributions} 09:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the pass! Dbam /_{Contributions} 14:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Blue Bell Hill (village)

Cheers for stubbing that ;) Pickle 18:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Image:All Saints Church, Waldershare.jpg

Thank you for uploading images/media such as Image:All Saints Church, Waldershare.jpg to Misplaced Pages! There is however another Wikimedia foundation project called Wikimedia Commons, a central media repository for all free media. In the future, please consider creating an account and uploading media there instead. That way, all the other language Wikipedias can use them too, as well as our many sister projects. This will also allow our visitors to search for, view and use our media in one central location. If you wish to move previous uploads to Commons, see Misplaced Pages:Moving images to the Commons. Please note that non-free content, such as images claimed as fair use, cannot be uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons. Help us spread the word about Commons by informing other users, and please continue uploading!

Sfan00 IMG 21:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Elonka 2

Thank you for your support in my Request for Adminship. Unfortunately the nomination did not succeed, but please rest assured that I am still in full support of the Misplaced Pages project, and I'll try again in a few months! If you ever have any questions or suggestions for me, please don't hesitate to contact me. Best wishes, --Elonka 06:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Through the Looking Glass (Lost)

Hi, thanks for all your comments which have improved the article. I was hoping that you would support now that all your concerns have been addressed and you crossed out oppose. . --thedemonhog talk • edits 17:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Poke. --thedemonhog talk • edits 19:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Fractions and non-breaking space

Could I ask your advice on how to write fractions on Misplaced Pages so that they do not break between lines? For example, an approximation of Pi is 22/7. In this form it may break between lines. Adding a non-breaking space (or two) will prevent this, but it will also cause a space to occur where the nbs has been inserted, eg 22 / 7. Is it possible to have a non-breaking punctuation without inserting a space? Thanks, --Ianmacm 18:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, this has fixed the problem. --Ianmacm 19:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Question

I noticed you were depopulating Category:Big-bust models and performers, was just wondering why. Videmus Omnia 01:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks! I hadn't realized that one was up for discussion. Makes sense. Videmus Omnia 01:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Isle of Portland FAC

Thanks a lot for finding all those faults with the article. I have fixed them, and have looked at the article carefully to find any more - but sometimes you can become blind to your mistakes. If you do find any more, I will be happy to fix them. If you don't find any more, could you clarify your stance on the FAC? Rossenglish 11:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Isabel Ice

Isabel Ice has been speedily deleted, but not as non-notable. It was previously deleted at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Isabel Ice, and the new version was pretty similar, if a bit shorter. Deletion review is definitely the way to go... Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Brazil review

Hello, Brazil article was rewrite, could you review again if meets WP:GA?. Thank you Carlosguitar 00:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Nominated, I hope you become our reviewer again. Thanks. Carlosguitar 22:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Sharday DRV

I'm somewhat worried about this bit from the deleted page: "Sharday comfirms on her Myspace page that she is a former model." Is the plan to use induction to link a person with myspace page to a former nude model? I don't think that would be such a good idea... --AnonEMouse 03:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Ordinances of 1311

Thanks for your input on the article's candidate page. I've dealt with your concerns, care to have another look? Lampman 15:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

GAC backlog contest

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		Thank you for your participation in the GAC backlog elimination drive! ¿SFGiДnts! 20:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Sharday

Sharday, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that Sharday satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not" and the Misplaced Pages deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sharday (second nomination) and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Sharday during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. -- Jreferee 18:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Article Hayley Westenra copyedited

The article Hayley Westenra, has been copyedited and should be up to the well written prose requirement. Please re-evaluate. Thanks in advance. Andrew D White 01:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Award!

I will endeavour to redraw the Kent county infobox map and improve the navigation templates in time for Sheerness's main page slot that you have secured! Well done! Jza84 21:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Kent towns

Template:Kent towns has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Jza84 21:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I've been bold per our discussion and agreement, and I've made some (but not all - yet) changes to Template:Infobox UK place to allow for Isle of Man transclusions. An example is avaliable to view at my sandbox. I've asked for assistance to correct some of the UK display fields.... Onwards and upwards... Jza84 19:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I've pretty much completed the syntax for this change to be possible. I'm just awaiting a map to be calibrated and hoping someone can figure out how to display the Isle of Man Ambulance Service in the infobox.

I've added an infobox to Douglas, Isle of Man - At the time of this sig, there is no map generated, but this will be fixed shortly. Hope it is what you had in mind? Jza84 01:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

UK places

Solid work. Well done. I looked cos I saw two Derbyshire places but looking at your contribs then it seems obvious that you have some automated assistance (care to tell me?). I'd like to add a suggestion. You are adding a little bit to lots of articles. Adding the co-ordinates is excellent being as we have the NASA mapping. However thething that many find difficult to do is to add a reference. Is it possible that your tool could add a reference for where you got the co-ord data from? The main reason would be so that the next editor could see how you did it? Victuallers 15:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

GA Reviews

Hi Epbr,

I've been enjoying doing some GA reviews, but wanted to ask your advice please. There are some very short articles which are being nominated for GA and I'm not sure how to handle them. These articles include Crowded House awards and Mandela: The Authorised Biography. I guess my initial reaction is that these articles are not substantial enough to be a GA, and do not meet the "breadth of coverage" criterion. But I wanted to check with you please... thanks, Johnfos 07:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

British villages

Hi - it's good to see the work you are putting in to create stubs on so many villages around the UK. I wonder if you could look at a couple of issues in the articles? Firstly, in the infoboxes for villages in metropolitan counties in England, you are adding a shire_district field and filling in a shire_county field, when these should be metropolitan_district and metropolitan_county respectively. Secondly, the disambiguation seems a little random. I can see that you are using the lists of UK places as a source for article titles, but it should be fairly clear that some are incorrectly disambiguated (the disambiguator should be the county or equivalent, unless there is more than one place of the same name in a single county). Finally, although this is by no means essential, I wonder if you could look at filling out the Region field for villages in England? This enables additional information in the infobox, including the European constituency data which currently appears broken in some of the articles you have created. Keep up the good work, Warofdreams talk 02:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment about your discretion.

You recently deleted my arcticle saying it ws inacurate. I would like to challenge you to that, because I know it wasn't.

Thank you for your appreciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kee wee2012 (talk • contribs) 21:18, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

another GA drive?

Since you were one of the main people behind the July 2007 backlog elimination drive, I thought I'd let you know that I've started a new proposal for a longer, three-month GA review drive, that would run from September 1 through November 30. The aim here would be to draw new reviewers to the GA project and to keep the backlog down. I've made a couple of minor modifications to the rules and awards structure from the July drive. The proposal can be viewed here. Any help you'd like to offer would be appreciated! Dr. Cash 00:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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GAC Review - Basingstoke

Hi there, thanks for the very informative feedback on the above. I've followed almost everything through as you outlined. I've removed the climate table as getting an accurate source for the town's weather is going to take a bit more time. I've also avoided a Popular Culture subsection as there was a major trivia section in the past which wasn't to hot. I've removed a couple of 'facts' that didn't stand up to close scrutiny. See what you think. Best Regards Mighty Antar 20:20, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Shiraz Review

Thank you for reviewing Shiraz. I read what you said on the talk page and have added more references. But I wanted to ask you to unofficially review it again. If the changes that I made were enough then I will nominate it again and hope that you didn't miss anything. If you found a problem with it PLEASE tell me on the talk page. If the page needs more refferences please tell me where. Thank you for your time.Manu kian maheri93 11:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I will add alot more refferences. How was the rest of the article?Manu kian maheri93 12:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for adjusting the dash issue.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

EU FAC

Hi, you made some comments on the FAC of European Commission. I'd just like to know if I have dealt with the problems you raised fully and if there is anything else? - J Logan : 14:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Notability of Eli Cross

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Eli Cross, by another Misplaced Pages user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Eli Cross seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

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A request for a brief look at the prose of Rob-B-Hood

Hello, I've been working on the article on the film Rob-B-Hood, in an attempt to bring it up to FA status. I've requested a copyedit from the LOCE, but no one's responded for several days, so I'd like to show you the article. If you are free, please give some comments on the prose on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Films/Peer review/Rob-B-Hood or my talk page. Thank you.--Alasdair (formerly Kylohk) 00:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Slow up! 2.0

You seem to have taken up a campaign of deletionism against the entire concept of notable Usenet personalities. The perception is that you don't believe such a thing existed, and you simply plan to purge all articles about such people. I don't know much about fields where you have demonstrated expertise, and I certainly don't make AfD motions for articles in areas where you are most expert, such as Kent. Please understand that Usenet is an important aspect of computer history and online culture, and that these people are more relevant to history than you seem willing to accept. --Orange Mike 18:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Orion

You may wish to reconsider your remarks on the Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates/Orion (mythology)‎; I have commented on them here.

On another matter, I regret confusing you: the difference is that between "The Administration is divided within itself" and "The Ministry are divided among themselves"; I will not expect FAC reviewers to follow the terms of grammar hereafter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

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44. "Failed rail franchise 'needed time'". BBC. 2003-11-13. Retrieved 2007-05-13. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
45. "Rail workers vote to hold strikes". BBC. 2006-04-13. Retrieved 2007-05-13. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
46. "New station means Eurostar change". BBC. 2006-09-12. Retrieved 2007-04-22. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
47. "London Ashford Airport". London Ashford Airport. Retrieved 2007-04-22.
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51. "Grammar schools have expanded". BBC News. 2004-03-26. Retrieved 2007-04-03. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
52. "Kent's selective schools compared". BBC News. 2003-01-17. Retrieved 2007-05-13. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
53. "Kent County Council". Kent County Council. Retrieved 2007-04-03.
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