Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
Thanks much for your support on the Darwin book covers I removed from various articles. I made several tactical errors in handling the issues and I believe the decision is now beyond the IFD forum. I am going to remove the August 21 entry from ]. If you feel it is still necessary for this listing to be there, feel free to revert my edit and I will leave it alone. -Kindest Regards ] ] 02:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much for your support on the Darwin book covers I removed from various articles. I made several tactical errors in handling the issues and I believe the decision is now beyond the IFD forum. I am going to remove the August 21 entry from ]. If you feel it is still necessary for this listing to be there, feel free to revert my edit and I will leave it alone. -Kindest Regards ] ] 02:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
== Arbitration request ==
A request for arbitration involving you has been filed . Please view the request, and add any statements you feel are necessary for the ArbCom to consider in deciding whether to hear the dispute. ] ] 03:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Revision as of 03:19, 6 September 2007
Elinor is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.
Welcome to my Talk Page!
I will normally respond here, but if you'd like me to reply on your talk page, please let me know.
If I post on your page, I will notice any reply you leave for me there, but if you prefer to respond here, that's fine.
If you disagree with an edit I have just made to an article, it's quite likely that I'm in the process of typing a post on the article talk page, so please wait before complaining here!
I normally archive my talk page when it has about fifty threads.
The design of this talk page (and of my user page) was a gift from Phaedriel.
I'm awarding you this RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar for your great contributions to protecting and reverting attacks of vandalism on Misplaced Pages. Wikidudeman17:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Please sign your posts, and use headings. Thanks. I've tagged, removed from articles, and deleted thousands of images, so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about — especially since you give me no context. Your use of quotation marks suggests that I used the word "silly". I don't recollect that. Sorry I can't be of more help. ElinorD(talk)17:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
ArrowRocketMan, I assume you're referring to this edit. We can't use non-free images in galleries. I'm sure Elinor wasn't saying the pictures look silly, but that it would look silly to have some of these pictures on their own in an article on Canadian Arrow. – Quadell22:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for sorting that out, Quadell. Indeed, ArrowRocketMan, my words were not meant to refer to the images themselves. It was necessary to remove several images from the gallery, because they were unfree images, and therefore could not be used in a gallery. However, I removed the whole gallery, because I felt that a gallery with a very small number of images would look a bit silly, though there's no reason why the images shouldn't be incorporated into the body of the article, if they're relevant. Sorry if I phrased it badly. As a matter of fact, I didn't leave the article on my watchlist after I had removed the gallery, and if editors disagree with me and want a gallery with only a very small number of pictures, I won't mind — as long as they're all freely-licensed images. Cheers. ElinorD(talk)00:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Why did you tag this image as having no fair use rationale? It does in fact have that (though not in any standard format), and I don't really see what's wrong with it. --Pekaje19:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. You're right. I do a quite a lot of image tagging, and occasionally it happens when I'm working quickly that I fail to see something that's there. The rationale, incidentally, could be improved. The format doesn't matter, but there should really be something to show how it fulfils Criterion no. 8 (if it does). I'll leave a note on the uploader's page. Thanks for pointing it out to me. ElinorD(talk)19:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I also saw one in your recent contributions that was tagged with missing rationale, which should have been orphaned fair use image (can't remember which one, exactly). Please note that the uploader is actually only the person who rescaled it. Check the logs for a possibly more appropriate place to put the messages. I'll see if I can do something about improving the rationale. Not entirely sure what to write, but when I read those two articles I do feel that they benefit from an example to illustrate what is being discussed. Any hints on how to put that into words? --Pekaje19:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about the delay. I'm afraid I'm not experienced in writing FU rationales. If you're quite sure that the images fulfil the criteria in WP:NFCC, then I suppose the main one to focus on in writing the rationale is number 8. ElinorD(talk)22:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you so much, everyone. The really nasty part is now over, and I'm just feeling weak and tired, but should be back to normal in the next week. Unfortunately, it has set me back a bit with real life commitments, which I'll now have to catch up on, but I should be editing normally by the beginning of September. :-) ElinorD(talk)00:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
White people
I find it really odd that you admit you didnt examine any of the content but yet have the audacity for a huge revert. KarenAER23:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I wouldn't have seen your edit in the first place if you hadn't used a vandalism template on the talk page of an administrator. As far as I know, I had never looked at that article before. It's inappropriate to throw round accusations of vandalism in a content dispute (I see that you were also doing it in your edit summaries). And it's also inappropriate to put a warning template on the talk page of an experienced editor — especially one that says, "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" and "take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia." See Misplaced Pages:Don't template the regulars.
Even more seriously, your edit warring included replacing non-free images in a gallery, which is forbidden under our image policy. See WP:NFC and Resolution:Licensing policy. Please do not restore that gallery until you have worked out which ones are free and which ones are fair use, and have removed all the fair use ones. If you have a problem working it out, I'll be happy to help you, except that I'm ill at the moment and am editing much less than usual. I suggest you use the article talk page to work out your disputes.
If I had just seen the gallery of non-free images, I would almost certainly not have gone further than to remove them. But that particular policy violation combined with your bandying of the word vandalism, and your slightly childish use of a vandalism warning on an administrator's talk page made me feel ill inclined to waste time checking to see if indeed I might agree with some of your edit. ElinorD(talk)23:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You know the funny thing? I was reverting the wrong version. I guess I shouldnt edit Misplaced Pages during my periods. As for vandalism, I explained why I considered his edits as vandalism in the talk page of White people....KarenAER02:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi Elinor. You said here that the image was a "lear violation of Criterion No. 8". Unfortunately, it isn't "clear" to me (or to a lot of other people, apparently)...could you please explain how it is that this "clearly" has no significant impact on the understanding of readers? I'm sorry, but no, it isn't "clear" that this has no impact on a reader's understanding, especially for a very visual person. Guettarda12:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Also at the ID Fair Use review you say "o me, it's obvious that aren't and they don't." It would be very helpful it you explained this - what's "obvious" to one person isn't in the least obvious to many other intelligent people. Guettarda12:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to expand on my comments tomorrow, Guettarda. I've been ill, and get tired when I try to type long posts. The discussion seems to be taking place at Misplaced Pages:Fair use review, Talk:Intelligent design, and atleastthree IfD discussions, not to mention the edit wars going on over tagging of the images, and the comments at the image talk pages.
I think the best explanation I've seen so far comes from Quadell here. He says, "But in the ID article, we could only use this magazine cover if a reasonable person might read the text of the section and think 'I sort-of understand, but I just can't really understand the controversy without seeing the actual magazine cover. I read that the issue was discussed in Time, but without seeing the cover itself, complete with God reaching out to a monkey, I can't really grasp the importance or the details of the controversy.' And that would be ridiculous."
its nice that all the images on wikipedia are being removed..... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PseudoKirby (talk • contribs) 08:08, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
Wow, you made my day! Some people think us old-timers are beyond notes of encouragement, but it ain't so. Thanks, and have a beautiful rest of the day. – Quadell23:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I have an essay here that explains why linking to harassment is BAD...please don't read it unless you have a lot of free time available...I also need your approval to spam my new essay all over Misplaced Pages...that is, after you approve it, of course.--MONGO05:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Crikey, MONGO. You know I've been ill. How on earth do you expect me to have the energy to read something that long? Anyway, it's great that you've written it, because now you'll be able to track my contributions and follow me around and show up at various pages where I'm trying to protect someone from further abuse and distress, and end all your posts with:
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
See ] for some reasons why this is a bad idea.
Why don't you make a template so that you can subst it? (I don't mean the essay: I mean your promotion of it. Much easier for spamming purposes.) ElinorD(talk)09:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I had no idea at all that there were editors here who seem to be more worried about what other editors are doing than they are about writing and maintaining an encyclopedia...shocking!--MONGO16:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to bring a complaint against User:Cyde, who has expressly announced that he is going to continue to violate the express terms of WP:HARASS#Posting of personal information. How can I go about doing that? I was threatened with an indefinite block when I inadvertently violated this policy in February, and I find it appalling that an admin is continuing to violate it intentionally. THF19:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
As I've said elsewhere, I do think it's incredibly rude to continue to use someone's real name or to keep posting links to a user rename log after someone has indicated he wishes to be referred to by his user name. Unfortunately, although I'm sympathetic, it's not in my power to do very much about it. ElinorD(talk)22:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I know we disagree on some points, but it is nice to see an editor (like you!) who is willing to admit oversight and change opinions. I'll try to be like that too. :-) --Iamunknown00:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Iamunknown. I'm very sorry about our recent disagreements. And to avoid misunderstanding, I'll add that that's a statement of sadness, not of contrition! I place a very high value on anyeditors who combine an appreciation for copyright policy with an appreciation for kindness, so whenever I come across another such editor, I definitely don't want to fall out with him! Regarding our recent disagreements, I'll email you sometime, when I get round to it. In the meantime, I'll make three fairly brief points.
Disagreement one (Maths Wikiproject): It is my firm belief that when someone is stalked and harassed by trolls and banned users who viciously and creepily try to find out everything they can about her real life identity, even contacting whom they believe to be ex-boyfriends, and when their publicising of these details (whether true or not) leads to a coverage on blogs or news-sites, we absolutely need to create on Misplaced Pages an environment where she can feel supported. That means that when someone who has opposed the block of an obvious troll (who deliberately taunted her on her talk page by posting questions with what he thought was her real name and location, ending his message with kisses, and posting on another site that he's consoled by the thought that his message will remain in the page history, and that he hopes she gets raped in her sleep by a Frenchman) starts opening up "discussions" about the story (with links) at different pages where he hopes no administrator will see it and remove them, we should not give him any support or encouragement.
Disagreement two (I forget where but probably AN/I): Removing links to sites that engage in harassment does not have to mean warning and blocking bewildered newbies. I have on occasion sent a very amicable private email to someone explaining why I had removed a good faith question or a particular link. If the person really is acting in good faith, he will be very understanding when someone explains gently that the link or the question was removed because it might compromise the privacy of someone, and I have received amicable replies from users who were not at all offended.
Disagreement three (AN/I): When an editor repeatedly asks people not to refer to him by his real name, after he has removed personal information from his user page and has been granted a name change, it is incredibly rude and boorish to respond to such requests by linking gratuitously to the user rename log, not matter how ridiculous one may find the editor's requests for privacy. That applies whether the culprit is an anon or an administrator. I feel it is entirely appropriate to remove such trolling. I suspect from this and from your appreciation of my efforts to get Orbicle unblocked that you place considerable value on kindness, which makes your restoring of that trolling anon post with the user rename log all the more surprising.
Elinor, I don't know whether WP:HARASS applies to this case or not, but it's quite clear that THF does not wish to be associated with his real identity. But Cyde continues to revert edits which remove references to THF's real name. I don't want to get into an edit war, but, even WP:HARASS issues aside, it seems to me that it's somewhat uncivil to continue to insist that his name be used when he quite clearly doesn't want it used anymore. Can you please advise? Thanks. ATren00:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"Please Stop" No Do something about it or i will! Cyde and his lackies went on there clearly violating policy and NOTHING was done to stop him. What did happen is his mates and you accuse me of trolling, and abuse admin powers by threatning blocks. Clearly one rule for one, one for another.You having pointed out this sort of has happened before to another user and nothing was done to protect them only strnghtens my position.16:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
has started at village pump i'm going to let this run and post my arguements there. 16:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't accuse you of trolling, and I have no intention of blocking you. I think it's quite likely that someone else will block you if you continue, though, and I did say that I don't think you're helping. Regarding Cyde, I agree that it's abominably rude to keep unnecessarily and gratuitously slipping in references to someone's full name when that person has already made it clear that he does not wish his real name to be used on Misplaced Pages any more. I do not think I have the power to do anything about it, other than what I have already done. And I don't think that your getting blocked is going to help to keep references to THF's name off Misplaced Pages, unfortunately. ElinorD(talk)16:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Youre and admin, block cyde and shankbone, that will stop the harassment, as you say blocking me won't because i'm not doing it. 19:28, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not impressed with anyone's behaviour in this business. And I have no intention of continuing the job you're doing (whether in good faith or not) of weakening the already very weak protection enjoyed by harassment victims by overreacting and carrying out blocks that will be undone by someone else within minutes. ElinorD(talk)19:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"that will be undone by someone else within minutes" SO WHAT? you know that blocking them is right and now they are useing the fact they have not been blocked as proof they are right so block them to show them they are not (at least in your opinion). 19:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
He has just made a post signing with his real name. I'm more than happy to fight for people whose privacy is being stolen from them, even if it makes me unpopular. I am disgusted by people (including administrators) provocatively linking to the user rename logs when someone has requested that his real name should not be used. I do not wish to see the protection of harassment victims lessened because your edit warring annoys people who would otherwise support them. I think that people on both sides are behaving poorly. I have just received an email from an administrator I respect very much, who comments, "They all need spanking." I never thought I'd say this, but she has a point. ElinorD(talk)20:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"He has just made a post signing with his real name" Yes because hes given up thanks to the complete lack of enforcement of the rules, GOOD JOB! Hope your defended as strongly when you need it as you defended THF. Just understand all you have done is let the bullies win yet again.20:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if you saw WP:VPP#THF, explaining my reasoning. Seeking to protect my privacy was only causing it to be invaded further, and giving ammunition to people seeking to have me banned for their own POV-pushing reasons. THF20:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I do thank you for your help and support and appreciate it, as well as your voice of sound reason in the ANI discussions, and hope you don't feel betrayed by my retreat. THF21:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Re this
"Every administrator can and should override consensus in order to comply with our image policy" -- assuming the person understands copyright law which was clearly not the case with the Oneill image. Nice to see that you defend him with a specious argument and then descend into hagiographical praise. •Jim62sch•20:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I've to question the validity of tagging and deleting images without the 'proper fair use' text you're performing in bulk orders with 7 days of warning. Users like me spend a lot of free time feeding good material to Misplaced Pages and it's really annoying to see fair work being wasted automatically and in bulk like you've been doing.
Yes, some images are lacking the proper fair use text, but some of them (in this case games screenshots) are clearly valid, so I would suggest that instead of simply deleting them you could, possibly, add the proper text yourself if your drive is to collaborate to the effort instead of just performing an apparently bureaucratic and automatic (thus prone to mistakes) job.
My two cents... I don't see value being added by this practice at all.
(Butting in here.) You may disagree with our policy, 212., but it really is our policy, arrived at by consensus. We all appreciate your being willing to spend your time uploading material to Misplaced Pages, but we also appreciate Elinor volunteering to help tag images, so that the uploaders have a chance to fix them. If you can add the proper source and license information to the images you upload, and refrain from uploading images that don't comply with our policy, then you will save yourself the time of having to go back and fix things, and you will also save volunteers like Elinor from having to clean up after you. All the best, – Quadell12:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree and see how valid this policy is. My point is that the images deleted are older than the policy itself. I rather see people adding the proper disclaimer to such images than simply deleting them after 7 days. My point is: why delete images that are not infringing any rule, just missing the proper copyright notice because they are older than this requirement? Since the image is clearly not infringing copyright (a game screenshot) wouldn't it be more productive to simply add the tags? I think this is far more collaborative and constructing than otherwise. Simply deleting stuff... Well, you're the guys ruling it, but I think this is rather shallow and against the whole point of a collaborative effort. The articles now missing the images are not better than before until I upload all the images again -- Misplaced Pages and its readers didn't benefit from this 'clean up'.
Again, my two (and last) cents.
BLP violation
The user in question is edit-warring to reinsert material that violates BLP, and did so by deleting a comment in the text explicitly referring to the policy, so the edit was in deliberate contravention of the policy, and frankly merits a block without the warning. It's not even a remotely close question: it's a blog cite to an unnamed source that publishes controversial information about a living person. You're warning the wrong person. Please intervene. THF14:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't warn anyone. I don't really like issuing warnings, except in the case of privacy violations, as warnings are akin to threats, and take people's dignity away. I did gently suggest that it's not a good idea to leave template warnings for experienced users. I'm sorry I don't have time to look into this, but I repeat that there is no way that Guettarda would be guilty of vandalism, and calling his edit such weakens your case. If you have a valid BLP concern, please take it to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Thanks. ElinorD(talk)14:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Nleobold
When I reverted the last edit by User:Nleobold to the Deborah Glick article, I gave him a very quick warning in the ES. I thought that trying yet again to explain matters to him would be a waste of time, in light of his past conduct.
I consider myself more patient than most people, but you've far surpassed me in your willingness to take the time to try to help him remain as a contributor. Your detailed explanation on his talk page is quite admirable. At this point, I think the case is hopeless and he will end up getting an indefinite block. Nevertheless, I agree with you that such a block is a serious step. Admins sometimes block too quickly. By contrast, you've gone out of your way to give Nleobold every chance to reform. Thanks for staying on top of the situation. JamesMLanetc12:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
And for the nastygram he left on your page following your very kind note, I've blocked for 72 hours. Feel free to review this, as always. ~ Riana ⁂15:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi - the article is protected specifically so we can discuss and come to consensus, but you haven't made a comment in 2 days. That is, of course, your right, but note what Misplaced Pages:Consensus says about silence. This is your chance to make an argument rather than a revert. --AnonEMouse19:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
What is this on my talk page?
Would you please tell me what this
message refers to? In future, would you please try to make it clear what you are saying when you leave me a message, by using full sentences? Thanks for your help. User:Pedant10:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
For helping out]. I didn't write the article; I don't care about the article, and to the best of my knowledge the article has been speedied. *sigh* The bot will give up eventually I am sure. KillerChihuahua20:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh you're welcome, but it's probably programmed to put that notice on your page if it's not there, and doesn't know that it has already put it there four times. Perhaps, if it happens again, it might be better to leave the notification until the article has actually been deleted? ElinorD(talk)20:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
And it's zero to quasi-Godwin in one move! (Elinor, you have now been warned -- cease subsuming corporations and other engines of capital into state structures, encouraging "nationality" to be the valid identifier for group loyalty, and ruthlessly stomping out Communism.) – Quadell20:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Ugh - you're right about the uploads, many of those look like copyvios. I'll start researching and tagging, I wish that Howcheng's script wasn't still broken. Videmus Omnia00:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
What???? So even admins can engage in battles that are reprehensible? Whatever. BTW, yeah I tag regulars whenever I deem it appropriate. Several other more respectable individuals (admins too) were reverting his one-man deletion war. And I'm going to trust Guettarda over someone I've never seen before. And calling me troll??? Whatever. OrangeMarlin01:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
It's only trollling when the point you happen to be making is correct, and the offending party (i.e., the one you are notofying) refuses to see the correctness of your comment. Admittedly, one really should tag the regulars, but the rest of Elinor's arguments are like so much effluvium wending its way to the cloacae. •Jim62sch•22:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I do a lot of image work, so I'm afraid you'll have to give me some context, as I have no idea which images you're talking about. Sorry. ElinorD(talk)20:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks much for your support on the Darwin book covers I removed from various articles. I made several tactical errors in handling the issues and I believe the decision is now beyond the IFD forum. I am going to remove the August 21 entry from WP:IFD#Old_discussions. If you feel it is still necessary for this listing to be there, feel free to revert my edit and I will leave it alone. -Kindest Regards Nv8200ptalk02:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Arbitration request
A request for arbitration involving you has been filed here. Please view the request, and add any statements you feel are necessary for the ArbCom to consider in deciding whether to hear the dispute. Videmus Omnia03:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
