Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:22, 12 October 2007

This miscellaneous page was nominated for deletion on 7 Feb 2006. The result of the discussion was No consensus to delete. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

• Talk Page - Archive 1 - January 24 2006 to February 28
• Talk Page - Archive 2 - Febuary 29 2006 to April 25 2007

Temporary watch request for new article: False allegation of child sexual abuse

I created this article and am consulting knowledgeable people to help flesh it out. Some of these people are pedophiles.

Please keep an eye on this for the next few weeks for NPOV issues. I see no need to publicly tag the article.

If you have your own ideas on improving the article, please contribute. Likewise, if you know any other experts, invite them to join in. Dfpc 19:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I will keep an eye on it. Voice of Britain 11:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Trilogy of activists listed for deletion

All three founders of the PNVD have been listed for deletion. Let's reach a consensus here. Jim♥Burton 19:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Here? No, they are on afd and need to remain there, SqueakBox 19:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a mannerism of my prose. Don't worry Jim♥Burton 19:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Holy crap

Apparently Jim Burton has been permabanned by User:Fred Bauder of the ArbCom. My understanding is that the reason for this was the contents of his userpage (archive here). Hmmmm. Again: I thought that the solution to an offending userpage was to request, then force, the removal of the offending material, not freaken ban the person for life.

We ordinary editors can't even read about this. I suppose it's thus a double-secret ban. Furthermore, WP:BAN states that in the past, Arbcom bans have never been for more than one year, so obviously this policy is out of date if we're now going to be seeing secret Arbcom-generated "permabans." That sounds even nastier than "indefinitely and *potentially* permanently banned," which is what you read about in WP:BAN for the communal ban and the Jimbo-ban, and which appears now to have been superceeded for certain high crimes (doubtless involving "children," (definition left vague) else the discussion wouldn't be HERE). Do we have a wiki sentence of life without possibility of parole, per ArbCom, now? There's a certain irony in all of this, from a community which supports aggressive bios of unwilling seminotables, all in the name of openness of information. SBHarris 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, political considerations. Herostratus 01:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I dunno man. You can be a Nazi holocaust denier and at least still get your day in court on Misplaced Pages, but not Jim Burton. It kind of takes the fun out of it if the referee just occasionally shoots members of the opposing team... Herostratus 02:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is a matter which has been settled on easily, and we shouldn't assume that it's a step taken lightly. It's a bit frustrating because it's all happening out of sight, but that doesn't mean it's arbitrary. While editing disputes may sometimes seem like contests we do have a purpose here. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 03:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Jim Burton did a great job on many articles, this is a big loss for wikipedia considering how few there are who has the knowledge and can stay neutral in these very difficult topics. I guess they will be comming for the rest soon enough. V.☢.B 08:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Keeping these articles neutral is what I am editing here for, SqueakBox 18:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I can never tell when you are joking and when you are serious. V.☢.B 07:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Burton neutral? Uh I don't think so. He was a problem as an editor, and if he had left on his own accord that would be fine with. He did play by the rules though. His punishment was severe. How much this had to do with his editing and how much with his userpage I don't know. Herostratus 03:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

He was banned because they thought he was a pedophile, or supported pedophilia. End of story. V.☢.B 07:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, this is the case. It seems like a one-step perma-ban. For the case of Clayboy, he was Jimbo-banned. However, if my suspicions are correct that this is what I think it is (i. e. the same), then it would be obvious that the ArbCom is doing this only through e-mail, to "protect their reputation." In other words, the reason is not encyclopedaic, but political. I am somewhat disappointed that Jimbo would decide that he would let his encyclopedia succumb to political pressure or do anything political with his encyclopedia at all. Oh well.--A 07:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Re-deletion of editors from the roster

User:Addhoc, who I don't personally recall meeting and who is not a member, removed the names of two banned editors. I don't agree with this action. The editors didn't behave in a manner to have them drummed out of the project. Their status per the Misplaced Pages in general is not necessarily germane. I restored them, but with a strikethrough as a compromise. Herostratus 12:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

In which case you could consider reinstating user:Silent War, again with a strikethough for an indefinitely blocked account. Addhoc 16:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Meh, I dunno. I guess if they're banned they can't be members anymore. Strikethroughs just look weird. I don't like the idea of Unpersons going down the Memory Hole though. Herostratus 02:52, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Having seen the commotion

Having been directed here by another concerned user, it is easy to see that the spread of misinfornation and subjective opinion on to these pages is out of control. Now that this partisanship has peaked with censorship and witchhunts, I have decided to get involved. Ignorance and misinformation will not win, and my participation is intended to demonstrate that. --βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 12:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Bow Ty created an account at 03.35 today and may be an SPA, SqueakBox 18:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith! V.☢.B 18:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh I am, just letting people know, SqueakBox 18:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If you mean Jim, then no. Jim is a friend, and the main person from an online community which pointed me towards the P-A-W. Although I have edited before (as a different user), I've only had a short time to get used to these articles, so hopefully, Jim will give me some pointers, especially if he is allowed back.

He's told me stuff about you that I couldn't risk repeating. So I won't. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 18:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

What's that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me? My contribs are puiblicly available and Jim knows nothing else about me, SqueakBox 18:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

So much for good faith. I see the pro-paedophiles tactics are getting dirtier and dirtier, somewhat appropriate for these folk I guess, SqueakBox 18:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser shows they edit from different ips in different countries, so they probably are different people. Fred Bauder 18:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox, please stop deleting stuff from my talk page. Secondly, Jim has only told me about the goings on at wikipedia, and nothing else. He related them in rather graphic terms, thats all. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 18:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and what tells you that I'm pro pedophile simply for wanting balanced articles which don't sound too emotional? If you want the facts, you can discuss how my relationship with Jim effects my ideals about man-boy etc, on my talk page. βѺ ►◄ ṮỸ 19:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. This brings to mind the slogan of H.Y.D.R.A.: strike one of us down and another will arise (yes I know what a Hydra is). Things are not always as easy and simple as we might like. Herostratus 02:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

HYDRA

I thought you were exaggerating but I've changed my mind. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 09:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

If just wikipedia had the same rules for all users then much of the problems would never arise. Now I must go do more damage control because some users never get banned no matter how bad they behave. V.☢.B 07:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does have the same rules for all users, SqueakBox 15:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

In theory maybe but not in practice. V.☢.B 16:14, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

constructive editors requested

there is presently a dispute at child sexual abuse, and though i'm not completely sure what the dispute is over since the editors there have been less than forthcoming, i would appreciate if any constructive editors could help me in neutralizing the article. special knowledge in the area of child sexual abuse is definitely a plus. ~] 22:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Attack of the clones?

The last weeks have certainly seen an energetic effort on the part of editors pushing pro-pedophile-activist POV. Is there a concentrated externally-coordinated effort to push POV going on here? It has been suggested and seems likely. At the very least, one user (Voice of Britain) has been accused of sockpuppetry and been indef blocked. (And expelled from the project.)

As a result of all this activity, some big guns, ArbCom members and old hands, have taken an interest. I don't think its any surprise that the approach likely to be used by these folks is about as subtle as a sledgehammer, involving blocks and deletions at whatever level is necessary.

This is probably a good thing. We have to remember that Misplaced Pages is an extremely popular and, therefore, influential site. I started up this project when I found that the #1 result for a Google search on "child sexuality" was our article, which was a mess of pro-pedophile-activist POV at the time. So we have an obligation to the world to make sure that toxic POV doesn't pollute our articles, using whatever means are necessary. Herostratus 03:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

At one point recently folks were using BoyChat to recruit involvement in Misplaced Pages. In one case a poster even impersonated an "opposing" Misplaced Pages editor. However the Misplaced Pages discussions apparently have moved to less public forums. Regardless, it's important that we keep trying to get this material right. Like it or not, Misplaced Pages has become a leading source of information on many topics, including this one. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 05:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which....Can someone with more experience with deletion protocol take a look at this page, Hey_There,_Kids? It's the first edit by new user Viper2k6. Thanks. ETA: Taken care of. Thanks, SqueakBox. -Jmh123 17:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

in re: Warriors for innocence and LiveJournal incident

Could I ask people from this group to please take a look at the article Warriors for innocence & the associated section of the LiveJournal article LiveJournal Account suspension controversy.

Please note that I am just someone who came to this article when the actions of WFI et. al. had an effect on a small "Survivor" Group's Website - so I know little, have NO attachments and have NO axe to grind. I was just looking for information myself and what I found was a lot of talk-page drama on one article and a messy stub on the other. Since I wanted info anyway, I looked lots of things up and attempted to put down what I found in proper fashion.

But the incessant wrangling going on over topics I never HEARD of before yesterday, makes me feel like I've fallen down the rabbit hole and it's clear that people who know what they are talking about should look into it instead of me. Thanks CyntWorkStuff 22:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your hard work on this topic. While I think the article should be merged with the LJ article, that's not because of any editing failure on your part. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 01:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought LiveJournal Account suspension controversy was excellent. I don't know why the not-neutral and insufficiently-sourced tags were on it; I didn't find either to be accurate IMO and so removed them. Whether Warriors for innocence deserves its own article is kind of debatable, but it might. You did fine work and I appreciate it. Herostratus 00:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipe-tan as Lolicon

Misplaced Pages now has its very own Lolicon image to illustrate that article: . I and one other argued on that "talk" page that it could be construed as implying endorsement by Misplaced Pages, but others disagreed. It was pointed out by a sysop, Merovingian, that there is precendent, as with a sexual fan service image here: Fan_service. But that image is not a child, nor is it particularly sexual. It was argued by several other registered editors that the previous image (still present) was not sufficiently childlike or attractive. The new image was temporarily deleted over questions of its origin/copyright, but Merovingian has just re-added it. Maybe I'm just not getting it because I'm not a regular viewer of anime, but the image is creepy to me, and definitely not attractive. It also felt strange to have a Misplaced Pages sysop essentially strong-arming it in over objections, based on supporting arguments that the old image--which is still there--is ugly, and that someone was nice enough to draw a better one for us. This comment , "the copyright issue arises just because some prudes think that the image is too explicit and offensive" was made by an anon who just signed on in the last couple of days, one of at least three new anons who fought to push this through. The image was restored with this comment: "There seems to be enough wiki-side support for the current image to suggest to me that it should not be removed," which if you count the three new anons is probably true. -Jmh123 23:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• I deleted the image on the basis that we do not include elements from the Foundation logos in kiddie cheescake pics, period. If the author removes those and gets an OTRS ticket proving his authorship, then hmmmm. I guess we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it. Herostratus 23:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Getting the logos out is primary to me (although I'm still not thrilled with the image). I checked, and the three newbies are from Finland, Antwerp, and Brussels, so I'd guess there was a parallel conversation going on somewhere else. -Jmh123 23:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

ETA: I think your edit was superceded by another simultaneous removal on the basis of copyright, so your edit note isn't there. The Foundation logo issue may come up again if copyright is settled. If you could leave a note on Lolicon:Talk that might forestall another debate over that aspect. -Jmh123 23:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's back. The individual who drew it has followed procedure in uploading it this time, and Merovingian has readded it. -Jmh123 02:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

And I deleted it again. I'll have a chat with Merovingian Herostratus 05:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that it's very gone, gone from Commons as well. Misplaced Pages should thank you too--this one had PR nightmare written all over it, if not worse. Thanks. -Jmh123 05:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a shame. It looked like a good example of what lolicon usually looks like. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 16:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, cheer up, it's back again. -Jmh123 16:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Gone again. I'll continue to delete it until I get blocked or desysopped or until the artist removes the puzzle pieces, whichever comes first. Herostratus 18:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

But now its on Commons, where I have no authority, so... the encyclopedia loses one round, I guess. Herostratus 02:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd guess that others in the community will make an issue of it as soon as they see what it's being used for. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 04:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

How was my comment "trolling", Herostratus? --Anonyymi 07:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The afd is still open methinks. Anyway I just voted there to keep the deletion, and would encourage others to vote their opinion too, SqueakBox 01:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Where can I find the AfD? regards DPeterson 01:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

here, SqueakBox 01:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) A note has been added at the top of the Deletion request page:

Clarification: Since several people seems confused, I will clarify several issues.

1. "Porn" is more than welcome on commons as for example it can be used to illustrate (*drum roll*) porn. Commons is a free image repository. Anything within our project scope is more than welcome. It is neither filtered for minors nor is it censored.
2. You cannot really {{agree}} or {{oppose}} this nom. Correct template to use would be {{vk}} or {{vd}}. Votes (they really are comments) without a rationale may be ignored. Comments without a valid rationale may also be ignored.

-- Cat 03:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No help as to what a "valid" rationale might be. {{vd}} is a vote to delete. -Jmh123 08:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately certain editors/admins are insisting the picture stays and refusing to use my cropped version, using the wikipedia is not censored argument etc, this is very depressing and any thoughts should be listed at Talk:Lolicon, SqueakBox 22:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Squeaky, I don't love that image, but I don't think your crop was an improvement. I thought your crop was more salacious, actually. But I do understand that it was a better alternative for you. I just don't share your opinion. The image that is there was added after long debate over images for Lolicon--that's why it is called "final solution". It's been there for ages. I don't like it personally, but I can live with it for the encyclopedia. I'm just happy that LoliWiki is gone from that page. -Jmh123 23:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

We have yet another brand new anon from Belgium with a special interest in Misplaced Pages:Wikipe-tan. Thanks. ETA: page has been protected. ETA: now trying to insert a link on Wikipetan Talk from a Flickr account. ETA: I think the revert war has stopped for now. I managed to get a warning onto his page in between reverts and to get him communicating on Misplaced Pages talk:Wikipe-tan. Jimbo Wales has unilaterally deleted LoliWikipe-tan from Commons, thus ending the deletion debate and , and this guy wants to get the word out and the image onto the page. I've reported the abuse to Flickr, where I have an account, and explained the situation. He (the anon) was helpful in providing Wales' language with his upload. (Flickr deleted the image within 24 hours.) Hopefully this will be the end of this round. I don't know how to report trolling, but will report a 3RR if necessary. -Jmh123 22:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

What the heck is going on with the Commons admins. They appeared to less interested in the arguments than in jeering at one side. Because of this Jimbo had to come downstairs and clean up, which is never good. Herostratus 01:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Barnstars

Don't be shy about giving your fellow editors project barnstars:

I have given out project barnstars to DanB DanD, Monotonehell, Will Beback, SqueakBox, Jmh123, and DPeterson; but I can't keep up with who is doing what and I'm sure there are deserving contributors who deserve recognition. It's just a project star so the qualifications are not so high - I would say anyone who's done say 50 useful edits (talk or article) or something along those lines, probably deserves a star. Editors do not need to be project members to get a star. This is difficult work, so let's make sure everyone gets recognized. Herostratus 16:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages campaign"

I recommend that everyone involved in this project read this article: "www.corporatesexoffenders.com/Wikipedia_Campaign". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

please see my new thread on Corporate Sex offenders below.Tony 16:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

It is chilling. I think it very important to remain vigilant. DPeterson 01:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's interesting. I don't find it chilling. This subject area contains so much bottled-up frustration and suppressed energy on all sides. All initiatives that aim for release through a cathartic confrontation (either knowingly or by consequence) and subsequent relief is a good thing. I looked up my my own name and online alias (as I operated an FTP site containing boy child pornography in the 1990s), but I wasn't included (yet?) in their database. __meco 07:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is silly. A few messages recruiting meat puppets have been posted to boychat, but there has never been a "co-ordinated campaign," only a few unconnected posts about Misplaced Pages (one of the largest websites on the internet, big surprise). Typical conspiraloon tactics. I mean... "Remember, No Original Research and keep a Neutral Point of View. This means use verified sources and don't be biased." is chilling? Ohhhhkay... 66.79.168.150 22:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that comments like these are indeed worrisome:

• It is of the utmost importance that pedophiles newly daring to google "pedophile" or "pedophilia," or look them up directly in wikipedia, in an effort to understand themselves better, are able to get unbiased information and are presented with links to a support forum like GC and/or sites like Lindsay's human face of pedophilia...This community needs that to happen. Misplaced Pages provides the opportunity for a widely recognized channel to fairly present the story. This community must do what it can to keep that channel open. And again, we need to keep the links in that article as well...If you have to "lie and hide" to keep our influence balanced against the bigots, then by all means lie and hide to do it.

When users of a forum plan to "lie and hide" in order to promote an agenda on Misplaced Pages it's a red flag. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree a really co-ordinated campaign would be more difficult to fight but what I see is its mostly the same few hardcore who come back again and again who give us trouble and do indeed manage to retain a much stronger pro pedophile POV than I am happy with. Misplaced Pages in its present structure is open to abuse by determined bad faith individuals so I guess that means plenty of vigilance is required, SqueakBox 23:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The commenter (Student) has - to my knowledge - not been active on paedophilia-related articles, and he's not even a paedophile. (He was advising an actual Misplaced Pages editor after the userpage debacle.) It might be worrisome if it was from someone who was involved in the supposed "Misplaced Pages campaign." 66.79.168.150 00:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, but, unless you're the person who posted that there's no way you could know if he's contributed to pedophile-related articles here much less whether he's a pedophile. The fact that he posted advice on a pro-pedophile forum about how to undermine Misplaced Pages though lying for the purpose of helping the pedophile "community" is pretty clear evidence of the person's interests and intent. If there weren't at least some poeple who've made a campaign out of this then we wouldn't have to face the "hydra" of sockpuppet accounts that have come through here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I know all of the people listed on that website, (except moonlight who hasn't edited for ages) so unless there's someone they've missed, Student hasn't been active here. He's a bystander. A backseat wikipedian? I don't know... but it's disingenuous to project his "by-any-means-necessary" attitude onto all apparently pro-paedophile editors (some of whom clearly tried to be neutral, also evidenced by Xavier's page).

There are certainly a few persistent people who edit Misplaced Pages from an allegedly pro-paedophile bias, but there is no co-ordinated campaign. That was my point. 66.79.168.150 01:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The implication here is that you are a regular editor of Misplaced Pages (else you wouldn't have found this page). Further, since you are not editing with a username it appears you are likely a previously-blocked editor. So you appear to be following the advice to "hide" in order to keep editing. Furthermore, there have been other BC postings directly calling on forum members to come to Misplaced Pages to influence articles and AfDs, and even to harass an editor at his place of work. That's "co-ordination". Since these efforts have stretched over some time, they can reasonably be called a "campaign". Squeakbox is correct that all but the best organized campaigns fail (we've seen plenty from various fringe communities). They fail in part because responsible users are alerted to watch for them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "hiding" anything, and I am not editing articles any longer. I'm just raving on this talk page out of boredom. "That's coordination." Perhaps, if BoyChatters weren't too lazy to follow up on it. Xavier's page implies there's some backroom conspiracy by pro-paedophiles to subvert Misplaced Pages, rather than just a few pro-paeds who asked for assistance at BC (without much effect). It's hyped nonsense. 66.79.168.150 02:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you want to call it, it is a fact that there is a persistent and unending succession of new single purpose accounts who appear on Misplaced Pages pages pertaining to pedophilia to attempt to insert the POV that having sex with adults isn't harmful to children. That POV, often supported by the ubiquitous Rind et. al. study, is represented in these entries already, but it should not carry undue weight, nor should it be the primary content of these entries, nor should readers be directed towards that conclusion in articles like child sexual abuse or pedophilia. If there is no conspiracy, perhaps you could encourage those rogue individuals to discontinue those efforts. It's not Misplaced Pages's job to make pedophiles feel better about themselves. -Jmh123 03:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is silly. Misplaced Pages bans everyone whom anyone accuses of being pro-pedophile, a codeword for anything other than the usual sex abuse agenda spewage people attempt to force-fit into certain articles, and yet, a cadre of self-appointed busybodies functions unhindered, quoting the nutjobs at Perverted Justice, raising the spector of a "conspiracy" everytime Misplaced Pages is mentioned on a pedo chat board, and guarding every article on Misplaced Pages against the notion, however well supported by academic research, that sexual activity by persons under 18 might not defile them and ruin them for life. Jim Burton, who to the best of my knowlege, has made only high quality edits, has been banned and his user and talk pages blanked. We're not allowed to discuss that here, of course, because it has been taken up by the Arbcon Star Chamber, in secret. You really have to wonder if this were the 1950's, whether certain people would be getting their panties in a knot over an imagined Communist slant to Misplaced Pages, or perhaps, in the 1930's, an imagined Zionist slant. There comes a point where vigilance against a "pro-pedophile" point of view turns into pedo-bashing, and the promotion of pseudoscience, and sexual McCarthyism, and in my opinion, that point was passed long ago here on Misplaced Pages. Hermitian 04:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Many aspects of child sexual abuse and pedophilia are ignored in an effort to use Misplaced Pages to campaign for the moral acceptance of sex between adults and teenagers. Honestly, I have no problem with adult-teen sex when it's genuinely consensual, and does not arise from an unhealthy imbalance of power, but pedophilia is often about grown-ups having sex with babies, toddlers, and little kids. It's sometimes about violent assaults, and physical harm. It's the narrow definition of pedophilia you're describing that I object to, and the persistent efforts to shift the focus of so many articles to that narrow definition. Do you honestly think that objecting to sexual assaults on infants and young children by adults is sexual McCarthyism? -Jmh123 04:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think trying to transform every nuance about this issue into "sexual assaults on infants" and "sex with adults isn't harmful to children", the canonical talking points of the sex abuse crackpots, is the very definition of sexual McCarthyism. Hermitian 05:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is bashing anyone here. Everybody involved in this project, whether signed up or not, has acted in a civil manner. The problem of editors pushing at pro-pedophile POV into Misplaced Pages existed before Perverted Justice noticed it. BC is not the only special interest forum that has hosted discussions about "fixing" articles. A couple of years ago folks from the neo-Nazi forum StormFront made a concerted attempt to influence articles but editors caught on, saw the notices, alerted others, and the community was able to thwart the effort. I could name other instances. The pro-pedophile editors are mostly like other POV pushing groups, except they may be better educated, more patient, and are certainly held in lower esteem by the public. That of course, is a part of the problem. At some point a difference of degree becomes a difference of kind. The goal of everyone here should be to help Misplaced Pages create a neutral encyclopedia. When we see blocked editors talking offsite about which articles to vote on with the intent of promoting an unpopular, fringe viewpoint then we should alert other inlolved editors to be on the look out for problem behavior. That's all. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that a "neutral encyclopedia" is created by banning people accused of being "pro-pedophile" and letting a mutual admiration society of people who imagine a pedophile conspiracy under every rock and shrub edit away with no supervision, having as their goal, not balanced factual accuracy, but articles no one might possibly interpret as suggesting that sex between legal adults and legal minors is sometimes free of harmful effects.

I don't know if you watched Babylon 5, but near the end of the series, there was an episode in which the government had two kinds of facts, "Good Facts" and "True Facts." Good Facts were facts that made the people behave the way you wanted them to, and True Facts were facts that were actually correct.

I think there's an attempt here on Misplaced Pages to edit articles on pedophilia and child sexual abuse from a "Good Facts" and not a "True Facts" point of view. This is a bias which is not confined to these articles alone. If you look at the English Misplaced Pages article on adolescence, for instance, it's all about how rotten, emotionally immature, and inferior kids are, and how terrible it is if they have sex, or do drugs, or get pregnant, or don't do what they're told. If you look at the German Misplaced Pages article on adolescence, it's all about youth rights.

Too much of the content on controversial issues in the English Misplaced Pages falls into the trap of not neutrally stating the facts, because everyone is bending over backwards to avoid anything that could be twisted by right wing kooks into an accusation that something nefarious is being "advocated and promoted." Sex abuse, adult/minor sex, and underage porn are of course the favorite moral crusades of the religious and political right wing, hyped way beyond their actual incidence at every opportunity in the media, and I think we need to be careful to avoid writing articles that play to emotion, employ booby-trapped vocabularies which build their conclusions into their definitions, and represent anecdotal horror stories and analyses of small samples of non-representative populations as scientific fact. Hermitian 05:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not an issue of which facts are better. "Facts" are not the only issue in maintaining a neutral point of view. There are many scholarly books that offer factual information showing why Jews should be dicriminated against. That is one viewpoint and we should describe it in a neutral manner. But we should not allow our articles on Judaism to be overwhelmed by "facts" in support of a minority viewpoint. An important part of WP:NPOV is avoiding giving undue weight to fringe viewpoints. With perhaps a few exceptions no one here wants to censor the pro-pedophile viewpoint. But the pro-pedophile viewpoint is held by a minority and so it should be given only the weight commensurate to a minority viewpoint. Quoting the same controversial study over and over again does not help build a neutral encyclopedia. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no "pro-pedophile" viewpoint. That's just a political construct similar to carping that everything to the left of center is "advocating and promoting" some objectionable activity. Obviously, if you eliminate all input from the left of center, you move the average opinion to the right of center.

This project started out as an attempt to make sure that Misplaced Pages's articles on child sexual abuse and child sexuality consisted of something other than value-laden hysterical sex abuse industry groupthink. It worked well for a while, until a certain bunch of people hijacked it, characterized everything they didn't agree with as "pro-pedophile," and tried to eliminate competing points of view.

This project is now a joke, and lacks only "bad clowns" and "anatomically correct dolls" as props. I'd propose it for deletion, but that would just give the people using it another forum to claim that "pedophiles" were persecuting them. Hermitian 01:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It's absurd to say that there is no "pro-pedophile" viewpoint. Anyone who makes that claim is willfully ignorant of the history of pedophilia-related articles on Misplaced Pages, and of the entire pro-pedophille movement (AKA "Childlove"). The purpose of the WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch is to make sure that our articles on pedophilia-related topics are neutral and otherwise compliant with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. If we spotted forum postings on PJ or a similar "anti-pedophile" site in which blocked users discussed how to "lie and hide" in order to promote their viewpoint here then we should likewise alert other participants in this project to their improper efforts. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages bans everyone who admits to being attracted to minors, effectively implementing a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy for people with such sexual attractions, and then when the necessity of not publicly mentioning such things while editing Misplaced Pages is discussed in other forums, you invent the term "Lie and Hide" to describe it. You can't have it both ways. Most of what you negatively characterize as actions by the "pro-pedophile movement" is simply one or more individuals trying to restore neutrality and factual accuracy to articles that have, through repeated editing by those pushing the sex abuse agenda, been reduced to inflammatory value-laden tripe. That you invent terms like "Lie and Hide", and "Pro-Pedophile" to label otherwise unremarkable activities, smacks of political dirty tricks and culture war. It certainly has nothing to do with editing an encyclopedia. Hermitian 02:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Some general observations:

1. Pedophilia has nothing to do with (say) relations between an 18-year-old legal adult and a 17-year-old legal minor, and dragging in all adult-minor sex (as opposed to adult-child sex) into this is a bogus red herring designed to confuse the issue.
2. The true pro-pedophile point of view - which is never given voice - would be to advocate sympathy and understanding for pedophiles, who after all have a very tough row to hoe, without suggesting that actual adult-child should be seen as anything but horrific or that pedophiles should be encouraged to be around children. Most pedophiles are (I assume) both moral and law-abiding and are certainly not well served by the posturings of Lindsey Ashford et al.
3. The idea that adult-child sex advocacy is in some way leftist is just crazy. An examination of so-called "children's rights" advocates reveals that those who want to remove protections against child sex are of a piece with those who want to grant eight-year-olds the "right" to "choose" to work sixty hour weeks in the mines. Removal of child sex protections is an extreme right-libertarian position.
4. If more people would wake up to the above point we would have less problem with people who are not pedophiles but who wish to take a Bold Stand to Subvert The Dominant Paradigm and just generally be cool.
5. When this project began I expected it to spend about as much time reverting die-pedo-die nonsense as pro-child-sex nonsense. It hasn't happened to turn out that way yet, but as Will says we are on guard against all attempts to hijack the Misplaced Pages for others' agendas. Herostratus 02:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

As the country has moved to the political right, "child protection" has stopped being about helping children, and started being about "hurting perverts," which has become the new national bloodsport. "Childrens rights," which used to be about helping children get the civil rights they wanted, has been replaced by the sound-alike term "child advocacy", which is all about adults doing what they "think is best" for children, and generally enforcing the rights of other authority figures over them. Whipping up hysteria over child sex and child porn and stranger predation has been instrumental in deleting all the rights kids gained during the 60's and early 70's, and recriminalizing status offenses like truancy and "running away."

Most people, regardless of their sexual interests, have the capacity to conform their behavior to the requirements of the law, and do so. Pedophiles are not an exception to this. Genuine pedophile activity is pretty rare. Most sexual assaults on small children are opportunistic in nature, and are not committed by pedophiles. Relations between adults and sexually active teens should not be tagged with the "pedophile" label, and should probably be referred to by some non-inflammatory label like "illegal sex," which avoids the usual abuse buzzword-ology.

The myth of "pro pedophile activism" should not be waved everytime someone criticizes an age of consent law, a flawed research study, condemns discrimination against those perceived to be pedophiles, points out outrageously heavy sentences for absurdly insignificant sexual offenses, or advocates genuine civil rights for minors.

Anyone who quotes Xavier van Erck on anything related to Misplaced Pages should be flogged. :)

Hermitian 02:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I've pretty much stepped out of trying to edit these articles of late, due to the frustrating amount of team-sport style editors involved. A piece of advice; if you've chosen a "side" in this debate. Bugger off and edit something unrelated. Your bias on either side of this debate will hurt any contributions you care to make, and frustrate those attempting to address topics properly. It's worth noting that it's not only articles regarding paedophilia that we are seeing this worrying trend occur in. If you have strong partisan opinions in any field, I'd suggest that you don't participate in Misplaced Pages. NPOV is there for a reason. --Monotonehell 07:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Reporting editors?

Is there a place to report editors who have made pro-pedophilia edits so they can be watched or blocked? I've been dealing with an editor who operates under a wide variety of IPs (they were all tied together in a sock puppet case) who has made several edits to an article about a children's show, Kids Incorporated, adding information of an inappropriate sexual nature, including adding links for porn sites and inappropriate information regarding the child actors on the show. Examples:

The information has been deleted as soon as it's been put up, and they've blocked several of the IPs, but since he vanishes periodically and hops around he slips through the AN/I process. I'm not sure if anything could be done but I thought I'd ask here in case you had any suggestions. Any thoughts? Please forgive me if this is the wrong place to report this. DanielEng 20:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I know that sort of intense vandal-hunting can be tiresome, but I think you need to wait for the sockpuppetry case to run its course. If he is guilty of repeated sockpuppetry, that alone will probably get him an indef block. I don't personally see the chances of a more efficient system than ANI, except if you can rally the support of a specific admin or two. If they get invested in it, then they're liable to take over some of the hunting for you. VanTucky 18:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a good place to report this. Fortunately the porn site only involves adults because if it were a child porn site the edits themselves would have to be deleted from the record by an admin. its on my watchlist, SqueakBox 19:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Corporate Sex Offenders (CSO)

Will suggested that we click on a link to the CSO site. I've just done it and found that my name has been added. CSO is therefore a libellous site and should not be linked to from Misplaced Pages. It is designed to look like a Misplaced Pages page. Tony 17:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

It's a wiki. Wikis tend to look like Misplaced Pages... I disagree with your removing of the link from the project page as it is a useful resource for the project considering its scope. It's not displayed in the main namespace so rules applied to encyclopedic articles on what may or may not be listed do not apply. __meco 17:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful if a link was provided here... -Unknown

Tony is correct in a fashion. According to WP:EL, blatantly libellous sites should not be linked, if only for ethical reasons. The question is, is CSO really potentially guilty of libel according to the legal standard? Seems to me as if this might an WP:IDONTLIKEIT issue. Not that I'm assuming you actually are what they might be accusing you of Tony. VanTucky 17:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL does not apply here. It only applies to encyclopedic articles. __meco 23:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Also we shouldnt link to any site that attacks wikipedians for their work here, SqueakBox 19:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you propose we sequester ourselves into a cocoon rather than stay aware of what is happening around us? __meco 21:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Libel and a simple "attack site" are two very different things. Libel has a very clear, and prosecutable, legal definition. But an attack site is not something punishable under any laws (at least US ones). Conservapedia, Wikitruth and several other "attack sites" are perfectly legit external link candidates. Blacklisting any site, organization or individual critical of Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians is sophomoric, and clearly would be a detriment to Misplaced Pages's credibility as a neutral encyclopedia. Let's not stoop to the level of our bastard children shall we? VanTucky 22:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

A site that claims someone is a pedophile just because they contribute masses of stuff to Misplaced Pages on the subject is clearly libellous. How would you like your name added? Also, I didn't understand meco's comments on a 'Wiki' site. Surely CSO is nothing to do with Misplaced Pages yet its page layout makes it look like a Wiki page and therfore visitors will think it's a Misplaced Pages page. It even has a log in/sign up link for editing which is not, of course, functional.Tony 22:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

Well I dont think they would add my name to the site and while, according to our policies we cannot link to sites and especially pages that attack wikipedians for their work here we also cant defend wikipedians from such attacks off site. I suggest you take a look at your contribs to see why they might have added your anme and if you think they are being unfair then contact the site. I do though see where Meco is coming from, this is an important issue and you might care to start a thread at AN/I to get further input, SqueakBox 23:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

My using the term wiki relates to wiki, not Misplaced Pages. Any sites using the MediaWiki software are going to have a "Wiki look". That doesn't mean they are attempting to plagiarize Misplaced Pages or fool visitors into thinking they are part of Misplaced Pages. __meco 23:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried to look up Tony Sandel there but nothing came up. __meco 23:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Christ, the following if from CSO's wiki: "From the age of 8, she and her mother have had a sexual relationship. This relationship continues to this day.". Wow. Absolutely stunning. The unverified accusation of a (completely illegal) incestuous relationship sure sounds like libel to me. As to yourself Tony, your authorship on the Positive friendships between men and boys in literature and film article certainly gives me pause to think. I suggest you take Squeak's advice and examine some of your work. VanTucky 23:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yah, I know for a fact that the incest story is true, and so much is claimed by that person. She even has an account here!

Needless to say, I am AGAINST the use of this multiply defamatory blacklist, as are the rules of Misplaced Pages!

And Tony has nothing to worry about. I see no biases in his writings, despite his focus on the man-boy scene and obvious fascination with pederastic literature. 86.131.37.130 21:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Given the type of material on CSO, especially their wiki, I don't think we should link to it. While many may support the efforts by PJ and related sites to unmask pedophiles, it's not part of the mission of Misplaced Pages. Our job is just to write an encyclopedia. We can't use CSO as a source, so I don't see any point in linking to it from this project. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This project's scope is quite different from the task of sourcing an encyclopedic article. As I wrote towards the beginning of this discussion, for a project such as this, I would deem it highly pertinent to keep somewhat abreast, if not track, of initiatives external to Misplaced Pages that take aim at influencing the internal workings of Misplaced Pages, e.g. by exposing contributors here to libel or harassment. That's why I entered "ostrich mentality?" in my previous edit commentary. __meco 23:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What are you quoting? Who is this quote relating to? __meco 23:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I have been in touch with CSO and they have immediately (and willingly) removed my name.Tony 18:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

Participation

I just discovered this project and it's interesting. How does one become a participant in helping to remove biased editing on these topics? Is there some kind of evaluation process or voting or is it voluntary and you just add your name like other projects? I'm also sort of curious how these libel accusations work since CSO says a lot of untrue things and draws many unwarranted associations. Tyciol 12:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just put your name down ●Farenhorst 15:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Apples and Pears

There is a difference of opinion on this article. I'd like some others views please. Two questions:

• Should the article be linked to Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction (boys)?
• Should it be included in the category Novels with a pedophile theme?

Tony 23:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Tony

I read the book some time ago and I remember there was a lot of sex with kids described all thru the book so yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.173.55 (talk) 10:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Apples & Pears is the least of the problems of the articles entitled "Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction". I question how such biased pages can exist in Misplaced Pages? Firstly, why are pedophilia & sexual abuse joined? Secondly, can anyone name a fictional text with children that does NOT contain pedophilia? Thirdly, the articles claim that "pedophilia and child sexual abuse are important themes in many fictional works". The notion of "theme" in texts is one of individual interpretation & has no place in the strictly factual world of Misplaced Pages. James Nicol 05:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This is about whether Adult-child sex should be there or not.
Take a look at whether it is redundant or not (a summary):
Pedophilia - not quite related, because it is a mental condition
Child sexual abuse - focuses on legal and clinical aspects
Child sexuality - Perhaps it could be added into here?
Before adding all that stuff about adult-child sex, think about how there is no article called Same-sex sex. Clearly there is no article on Misplaced Pages dealing with every possible permutation for sex. Content focusing on adult-child sex would deal exclusively with sex, and thus should be added to another article dealing with sex. Human sexual behavior is not the appropriate one, I believe, because it is focusing on human sexual behavior in general, and certainly should not talk about a specific permutation. If a new but gender neutral article like pederasty is to be included, it would exclude the "sex" from "Adult-child sex" because it would have to not focus on sex. Instead, I believe that it should be included within broader context of content for adult-child relationships. I also think that an article titled similarily to adult-child relationships should be created with the stuff about adult-child sex added in, but not being its main focus, if an article like pederasty is to be created.--A 01:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Adult-child relationships

I think this article should be created as a gender-neutral parallel to pederasty. The fact is that this title does not have the word "sex" in it, although it could contain facts about sex. This is much broader, and any material that A.Z. has can add it in there. Well, any thoughts?--A 01:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made comments about this on Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2007 October 7. a.z. 04:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

All this material is adequately covered in pedophilia, child sexual abuse and pro-pedophile activism, no need for anything else, SqueakBox 18:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I was asking about a gender neutral version of pederasty. Perhaps it can be made by converting the exiting pederasty article into a gender-neutral one by inserting information. Or is it just too historically insignificant to justify any information on non-males? I am not an expert, so I would like more opinions.--A 02:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)