Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:11, 1 November 2007

Statement by Malikbek

I am rather new to this Wiki-ing thing but would welcome some clarification. I hope I am writing my query in the right place. I have added a few updates to articles to do with Azerbaijan/Armenia to try to balance what seem to be biassed viewpoints. I notice that in at least one case my corrections were simply reverted which seems disingenuous without at least further fleshing out the subject (in this case Khachen). I think that the issues of controversy surrounding such historical passages are important for readers and that it is thus useful that my text stands or at least forms the basis for an improved coverage of such subjects. I do of course realise that passions run high on such subjects. Malikbek 08:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Tariqabjotu

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a whole lot the arbitration committee can do about the seemingly interminable issues that surround articles on Western Asia. This is an issue that goes beyond Hajji Piruz, Atabek, et, al. and (of course) beyond Misplaced Pages. Ultimately, from what I have witnessed, the issues here seem to come from persistent assumptions of bad faith. Instead of merely talking calmly to other editors, there is a tendency to ascribe issues to their nationality or personality. Someone has to bring up alleged ulterior motives. And alleged cabals of editors. This should never have arrived at this point, but alas there are some who just cannot see a trivial matter for what it is – trivial. Unfortunate indeed. -- tariqabjotu 19:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

"Trivial" was the word used! There is nothing trivial about Misplaced Pages revealing itself as its true form - a medium for the propagation of lies; material that normal acholarship would not touch with a bargepole. There is something seriously sick with any person who wants to be an administrator for such a vile organisation. The problem is with them. It is NOT with those that this supposed arbritration are going to punish - they are either the propagandists pushing at an open door or concerned individuals offended by such in-open-sight lies.

Review?

Arbitrators' opinions seemed to indicate that this would merely be a review of the original case, but instead it's been opened as an entirely new case? hbdragon88 21:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Originally, the case was filed involving just two editors, both of whom were parties to the original case. At that point, two arbitrators accepted a suggestion I made that if the case was accepted, it be as a review. Later, however, the request was expanded to include more than a dozen other editors, several of whom were not parties to the original case. It would be unfair to these new parties not to give them a full opportunity to present evidence and workshop proposals, so I as a clerk checked with the arbitrators and we were instructed to open it as a full case. (It is good to know, though, that someone other than us notices these things.) Newyorkbrad 21:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the thorough and very fast response to my query. hbdragon88 21:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, please do not remove your former user names. It is relevant to this case, as this was the name you were using before you officially changed it. --Grandmaster 04:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, I didn't change my name, I slightly modified it. Vartanm's stats shows zero contributions, there is no point of having it there. VartanM 12:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

There's a point in having it there, as it contains your previous block log, while your current user name does not. It is a normal procedure that everyone's previous user name is shown in the list, so please stop removing it. --Grandmaster 12:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I was unaware of the block log. I thought all of my information was forwarded to VartanM, the cause of this seems to be a bug. I never tried to conceal or deny the fact that was blocked. Besides Arbitrators already know about my 3 hour block (its in your evidence), they also know that I was fairly new to Misplaced Pages, and didn't know about the 3RR rule. Instead of arguing and revert waring it is probably better if we ask clerks opinion about this. VartanM 20:37, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand why you are removing your previous user name. When you officially change your username, your block log does not transfer to the new name, so your old name links are important info the arbitrators should be aware of. Let's ask the clerks. Grandmaster 04:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't officially change my username. I already asked the clerk. --VartanM 18:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You did and I can prove that. So please restore your userlinks as Penwhale recommended you. --Grandmaster 04:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please prove me that I officially changed my username. Changing lower case "m" to an upper case "M" doesn't qualify as "officially change your username" If I changed "Vartanm" to "VartanMamikonian" that would qualify as official name change. I already added the link to my block next to my name and told Penwhale that he can re-add the userlinks, if he thinks they should be included. VartanM 05:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Gradmaster, I'm not gonna fall into your provocations, this actually made me laugh. Go ahead you have my permission to add the userlinks back. I don't care anymore VartanM 07:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

What is it that you actually wanted me to do? Remove it? So you can tell me not to touch your evidence space? Or report me for removing your evidence? --VartanM 07:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

We consulted the clerk and he told you that the links to your former username should remain: --Grandmaster 08:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I expected you to assume good faith and let the clerk do it himself if he thinks it should stay . I see your actions as a personal attack against me. Vartanm is not a former VartanM, not a single letter changed in my name. VartanM 16:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Enough is enough. You are foolish to edit-war on an arbitration case page. I've restored the name and I expect this edit war to be over. - Penwhale | 14:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm being misunderstood, I have no problem with the userlinks, or the name Vartanm being there. It's the word "formerly", how can it be formerly if its the same name? Also your shouting isn't gonna help anyone. VartanM 15:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

For the MediaWiki software, VartanM and Vartanm is different. Therefore it is still considered formerly. And no, I'm not shouting. - Penwhale | 04:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone change AndranikPasha's status. He was unblocked and is under a supervised editing. VartanM 16:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if I should be WP:BOLD and do it myself. Or is that only applies to the mainspace articles? --VartanM 18:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This page says on top: Once the case is closed, editors may add to the #Log of blocks and bans as needed, but closed cases should not be edited otherwise. So the log of blocks can be edited by anyone, including you. I don't think there should be a problem, if you make a factually accurate correction. Or you can ask one of the admins personally to fix this. Grandmaster 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't want to take the chance of editing it. And its not really that big of a deal to bother the administrators. I'm sure they have more important things to worry about. VartanM 20:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarification request

Archived from wikipedia:requests for arbitration. Picaroon (t) 21:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

At the text states that remedy 2 will apply to articles which relate to Armenian and Azerbaijan and related conflicts, i.e. conflicts which relate to Armenian and Azerbaijan.

However, the template that Seraphimblade has placed on my ] talk page has text which, in its scope, far exceeds what was decided in that remedy 2. Under the wording of the Armenia-Azerbaijan2 RfA remedy, articles conected to Turkey would only fall under that particular RfA remedy if the article was in some way related to either Armenia or Azerbaijan. However, Seraphimblade has used the RfA remedy to apply to an edit I made in a talk page of the entry on , a subject which is completely unrelated to either Armenia or Azerbaijan. Moreover, this remedy was not applied by Seraphimblade as a result of an edit made to an article but as a result of a comment on the article's talk page. Where did the template text applied by Seraphimblade come from? What discussion and voting preceeded its composition? Why is it connected to Armenia-Azerbaijan2 RfA given that it far wider in scope than the actual remedy 2 decided on in Armenia-Azerbaijan2 RfA? I've asked Seraphimblade these questions a number of times but he has declined to give me an answer. Meowy 18:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• I created the template in question to aid admins in enforcing the remedies in that case. The first remedy states "Hajji Piruz and the other users placed on revert limitation in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan#Remedies are subject to supervised editing. They may be banned by any administrator from editing any or all articles which relate to the region of Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Iran and the ethnic and historical issues related to that area should they fail to maintain a reasonable degree of civility in their interactions with one another concerning disputes which may arise." (emphasis added). The second remedy applies to editors "which relate to Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts". (emphasis added) It doesn't make much sense for "related ethnic conflicts" to have two different meanings in the two remedies. Thatcher131 22:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

What (on record) discussions did you have before drafting that template? You have seriously altered the meaning and scope of the "any editor who edits articles which relate to Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts" part of remedy 2. You cannot use emphasis to change that meaning to support your re-writing of the remedy. It is quite clear from the wording of the remedy that the ethnic conflicts have to be in some way related to either (or both) Armenia and Azerbaijan. For example, an article about Azeri ethnicity is not directly connected to the country or territory of Azerbaijan, but it is related to Azerbaijan, so would fall under the remit of remedy 2, massacres of Armenians in the territory of the Ottoman empire are not directly connected to the country of Armenia, but is a related ethnic conflict, so would fall under the remit of remedy 2. An article which deals solely with Turkey does not fall under the remit of remedy 2.

You played no part in the discussions that took place at ], you were not one of the six who voted on the text for remedy 2, yet you have substantially altered (aparently arbitrarily) the text that those six agreed on, extending its scope beyond what was actually decided upon. If remedy 2 was intended to be the same as remedy 1 (as you seem to want to suggest), then why were two remedies proposed, and voted for separately, and given completely different remedies? Meowy 16:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

As an Arbitration Clerk (at the time) I had reasonably broad discretion to interpret decisions. Of course, I am certainly willing to be corrected by the Arbitrators, if their view differs from mine. Thatcher131 16:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Note, the template is {{Armenia-Azerbaijan enforcement}}. I wrote it to help admins to enforce the remedies in that case by making it easy to apply a comprehensive notice that would avoid disputes about whether an editor was properly noticed to all elements of the remedy. Also note Meowy's comments such as which prompted the application of the probation. Thatcher131 16:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I have already contacted all six arbritrators, via their talk pages. Your insinuation that I am in some way trying to hide the existence of the comment I made here: is completely unjustified. The whole point of initiating this request for clarification arose from an administrator notifying me that I would be subject to the RfA remedy because of that comment. I have been completely open about its existence, as you can see if you look at my talk-page discussion . Regardless of whether you agree or do not agree with my comment on the Occupation of Istanbul talk page, it does not fall within the remit of remedy 2 because it is in the talk page of an article that is outside remedy 2's remit! This RfC concerns your apparent altering of the RfA remedy2 decision. Meowy 17:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

We really screwed that one up, didn't we? Aside from the differently worded scopes, it appears that the original decision didn't have any probation remedies—the probation was part of the new decision—so that part of the new wording doesn't make any sense either.

Our intent, however, was to impose a remedy on the old participants, and to allow admins to impose the same remedy on any new parties that became involved. As such, the second remedy should be considered to apply to the same range of articles as the first one does. Kirill 04:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

With all respect, you may claim "our intent", but the most you can say with certainty is "my intent". As proof, during the RfA, one of the arbitrators Jdforrester had said when voting that he was already "unhappy with the broadness of the overall case". You can't now claim you all wanted to make it even broader! The simple fact is that the remedy you, and your fellow arbitrators decided on and then voted for only said "articles which relate to Armenia-Azerbaijan and related ethnic conflicts". You can't now change that remedy on the grounds that you actually wanted to vote for something different.

Are you seriously saying that that RfA remedy should be applied to, let's say, an entry about the Ottoman-Venetian naval battle at Lepanto, or an entry about the population of Germany if it mentions ethnic Turkish immigrants communities in Berlin, or even to some overly-heated talk page discussion about the football-playing abilities of Galatasaray over Fenerbace! How can you possibly justify such a thing when no such broadness in scope was suggested or implied during the RfA discussion. Meowy 18:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I must also note that Meowy’s block log shows that he has 2 blocks for 3RR violations and another 2 for harassment of other editors, the last one dated 22 September 2007, i.e. after the end of the last arbcom case. I don’t think that the technical issues should be used as a pretext to avoid the application of arbcom remedies, while it is clear that the scope of arbitration was never limited to Armenia – Azerbaijan related articles and the title is misleading. Both arbcom cases covered the articles concerning wider region than those 2 countries. Grandmaster 06:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Your position is understandable: someone who has already been hung several times under Armenia-Azerbaijan RfA1 and RfA2 has no incentive to oppose hanging, and someone who has no interest in accuracy has no inclination to oppose inacuracy. Meowy 19:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Please mind WP:NPA. Whatever I said is an accurate info that can be verified by anyone. Claims that I have "no interest in accuracy" are not in line with the aforementioned policy. Grandmaster 07:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the way the particular Arbitration case's remedies are being implemented.

James F. (talk) 06:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)