| Revision as of 23:55, 9 August 2002 editMirwin (talk | contribs)425 edits degenderized an admonition← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:16, 21 August 2002 edit undoBignose (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users651 edits "/Talk" is no longer, editing text to "Talk"; standardisation of markup; copyeditingNext edit → | ||
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| === Some principles of Misplaced Pages etiquette ("Wikipetiquette") === | |||
| * '''Try to say something positive for each complaint you make.''' A few compliments can proactively smooth feathers and make the author less likely to simply take offense at the criticism. A safe approach is to "sandwich" the complaint between compliments, with something positive at the beginning and end of your commentary. Remember what your parents taught you: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." :-) | * '''Try to say something positive for each complaint you make.''' A few compliments can proactively smooth feathers and make the author less likely to simply take offense at the criticism. A safe approach is to "sandwich" the complaint between compliments, with something positive at the beginning and end of your commentary. Remember what your parents taught you: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." :-) | ||
| * '''Remove or summarise old complaints.''' Once you are fairly certain the person you're critiquing has seen your complaint (e.g., they've responded to it), be honorable about removing or summarizing it. Sometimes the author will feel reluctant to remove criticism out of fear it will make them appear afraid of criticism. You can go even a step further and thank them for addressing (or at least considering) your issue. | * '''Remove or summarise old complaints.''' Once you are fairly certain the person you're critiquing has seen your complaint (e.g., they've responded to it), be honorable about removing or summarizing it. Sometimes the author will feel reluctant to remove criticism out of fear it will make them appear afraid of criticism. You can go even a step further and thank them for addressing (or at least considering) your issue. | ||
| * '''Say nice things when you can'''. Do not assume that by not complaining, the author "ought to know their work is ok". If you like what you read, tell them so. Typically, people only bother to use ] pages when they have an "issue" with the article, thus automatically giving a negative connotation to them, and making it inevitable for arguments to arise on the pages. Remember that when training an animal (and humans *are* animals), positive reinforcement is vital. If 9 out of 10 monkeys do what you want, in the long term rewarding the nine can do more than punishing the one. Isn't there a fable or saying or something about "the carrot is more powerful than the stick"? | * '''Say nice things when you can'''. Do not assume that by not complaining, the author "ought to know their work is ok". If you like what you read, tell them so. Typically, people only bother to use ] pages when they have an "issue" with the article, thus automatically giving a negative connotation to them, and making it inevitable for arguments to arise on the pages. Remember that when training an animal (and humans *are* animals), positive reinforcement is vital. If 9 out of 10 monkeys do what you want, in the long term rewarding the nine can do more than punishing the one. Isn't there a fable or saying or something about "the carrot is more powerful than the stick"? | ||
| * '''Try posing comments as questions, especially if you're not totally sure.''' Instead of saying, "Everyone knows abortion is murder of the innocents," you could say, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" and it comes across as less like pure flamebait, as though you're willing to allow for other points of view. | * '''Try posing comments as questions, especially if you're not totally sure.''' Instead of saying, "Everyone knows abortion is murder of the innocents," you could say, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" and it comes across as less like pure flamebait, as though you're willing to allow for other points of view. | ||
| * '''Limit and qualify your statement'''. Blanket statements or statements asserting the truth of opinions can inflame the reader, and sometimes if you identify it as your own personal point of view, it can help make it seem less insulting to those who disagree. For example, instead of saying, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" it could be better to say, "Certainly I am not the only person who believes abortion is just murder of the innocents?" In this way, you can still emphasize your strong feelings on the topic, and communicate exactly the same opinion, but do so in a less inflamatory way. | * '''Limit and qualify your statement'''. Blanket statements or statements asserting the truth of opinions can inflame the reader, and sometimes if you identify it as your own personal point of view, it can help make it seem less insulting to those who disagree. For example, instead of saying, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" it could be better to say, "Certainly I am not the only person who believes abortion is just murder of the innocents?" In this way, you can still emphasize your strong feelings on the topic, and communicate exactly the same opinion, but do so in a less inflamatory way. | ||
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| Most of the above suggestions can be summarized very succinctly: '''Be Polite.''' It's more important (and useful) than you may think. | Most of the above suggestions can be summarized very succinctly: '''Be Polite.''' It's more important (and useful) than you may think. | ||
| === How to avoid abuse of Talk pages === | |||
| We are editing each others' work, and when working on political and other incendiary topics, inevitably, a lot of the edits reflect our personal biases. Very often, political disagreements are interpreted as personal insults, or attacks on our intelligence, dignity, cherished values, or honesty. Egos can get wounded and concomitant attacks and defensiveness are all too natural. So, the ]s are there--and are used to duke it out verbally. | We are editing each others' work, and when working on political and other incendiary topics, inevitably, a lot of the edits reflect our personal biases. Very often, political disagreements are interpreted as personal insults, or attacks on our intelligence, dignity, cherished values, or honesty. Egos can get wounded and concomitant attacks and defensiveness are all too natural. So, the ]s are there--and are used to duke it out verbally. | ||
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| So let's please, please ''conscientiously'' avoid trying to use Misplaced Pages as a place where partisan controversies can be settled. | So let's please, please ''conscientiously'' avoid trying to use Misplaced Pages as a place where partisan controversies can be settled. | ||
| === Objections and replies about the use of Talk pages === | |||
| '''What look to you like partisan controversies are usually very useful discussions that result in an improved article.''' | '''What look to you like partisan controversies are usually very useful discussions that result in an improved article.''' | ||
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| :Sometimes that does happen, and so much the better. But why not get right to the relevant topic and skip the intervening wrangling? Moreover, of course, very often in our experience the discussion ''doesn't'' come back around to anything having to do with the article--it results, instead, in hardened positions. (As though defending hardened positions had anything to do with writing an encyclopedia!) | :Sometimes that does happen, and so much the better. But why not get right to the relevant topic and skip the intervening wrangling? Moreover, of course, very often in our experience the discussion ''doesn't'' come back around to anything having to do with the article--it results, instead, in hardened positions. (As though defending hardened positions had anything to do with writing an encyclopedia!) | ||
| '''Well, the talk page controversies get people excited about Misplaced Pages. Would you rather that they not be excited? A controversy-less wiki would be boring. Maybe the controversy actually brings |
'''Well, the talk page controversies get people excited about Misplaced Pages. Would you rather that they not be excited? A controversy-less wiki would be boring. Maybe the controversy actually brings ''more'' people to Misplaced Pages.''' | ||
| :The controversies do bring some people back to Misplaced Pages, perhaps--but it's equally reasonable to say that they also turn off a lot of ''other'' people, the sort of people who don't ''ever'' engage in such controversies. You should also bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is extremely exciting quite apart from the controversies--exciting enough all by itself to keep us coming back. | :The controversies do bring some people back to Misplaced Pages, perhaps--but it's equally reasonable to say that they also turn off a lot of ''other'' people, the sort of people who don't ''ever'' engage in such controversies. You should also bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is extremely exciting quite apart from the controversies--exciting enough all by itself to keep us coming back. | ||
| '''But I'm free to do whatever I please here. This is a |
'''But I'm free to do whatever I please here. This is a Wiki, right?''' | ||
| :No, you're not free to do anything here; Misplaced Pages doesn't belong to you. This is something most people learn to deal with by the time they're seven years old or so, though some people clearly never learn. This server is the private property of Bomis, Inc., who graciously chooses to allow nearly everyone to do certain things that serve its goal of creating an encyclopedia. If you don't agree with their goals or their methods, you can certainly discuss that with them, but if they make a decision it is theirs to make. If you can't support those goals, then go buy your own server. | :No, you're not free to do anything here; Misplaced Pages doesn't belong to you. This is something most people learn to deal with by the time they're seven years old or so, though some people clearly never learn. This server is the private property of Bomis, Inc., who graciously chooses to allow nearly everyone to do certain things that serve its goal of creating an encyclopedia. If you don't agree with their goals or their methods, you can certainly discuss that with them, but if they make a decision it is theirs to make. If you can't support those goals, then go buy your own server. | ||
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| :Good point, maybe we ''are'' blowing things out of proportion, a little. Even if Misplaced Pages would continue to grow and thrive ''with'' the controversy, some of us think it would be better off without it. It seems we have wasted hundreds of hours, altogether, engaged in pointless debates that we could have avoided with tact, maturity, and attention to the task at hand. We could have been rather further along than we are now, perhaps with more participants, as well. If we can start a good anti-partisan-bickering habit now, then, in the years ahead, future Wikipedians will thank us for it. | :Good point, maybe we ''are'' blowing things out of proportion, a little. Even if Misplaced Pages would continue to grow and thrive ''with'' the controversy, some of us think it would be better off without it. It seems we have wasted hundreds of hours, altogether, engaged in pointless debates that we could have avoided with tact, maturity, and attention to the task at hand. We could have been rather further along than we are now, perhaps with more participants, as well. If we can start a good anti-partisan-bickering habit now, then, in the years ahead, future Wikipedians will thank us for it. | ||
| === Debate vs. research === | |||
| Arguing as a means of improving an article is a pale shadow of an equal amount of time engaged in |
Arguing as a means of improving an article is a pale shadow of an equal amount of time engaged in '''research'''. It may attract people to the project, but it seems logical that these would be people interested in arguing, which leads down a dark path we ought not tread. | ||
| One habit that would be good for folks to get into is to actively seek to summarize discussions, especially those which have elaborated all views on the subject. This doesn't (necessarily) mean replacing the entire discussion with what ''you'' think, merely trying to recast the entire discussion as, e.g., a set of bullet points, removing any points that have been taken back or proven incorrect. If you can restrain yourself to do this in an unbiased fashion (which admittedly is hard), it can result in text which is almost good enough for the main article. | One habit that would be good for folks to get into is to actively seek to summarize discussions, especially those which have elaborated all views on the subject. This doesn't (necessarily) mean replacing the entire discussion with what ''you'' think, merely trying to recast the entire discussion as, e.g., a set of bullet points, removing any points that have been taken back or proven incorrect. If you can restrain yourself to do this in an unbiased fashion (which admittedly is hard), it can result in text which is almost good enough for the main article. | ||
Revision as of 18:16, 21 August 2002
Some principles of Misplaced Pages etiquette ("Wikipetiquette")
- Try to say something positive for each complaint you make. A few compliments can proactively smooth feathers and make the author less likely to simply take offense at the criticism. A safe approach is to "sandwich" the complaint between compliments, with something positive at the beginning and end of your commentary. Remember what your parents taught you: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." :-)
- Remove or summarise old complaints. Once you are fairly certain the person you're critiquing has seen your complaint (e.g., they've responded to it), be honorable about removing or summarizing it. Sometimes the author will feel reluctant to remove criticism out of fear it will make them appear afraid of criticism. You can go even a step further and thank them for addressing (or at least considering) your issue.
- Say nice things when you can. Do not assume that by not complaining, the author "ought to know their work is ok". If you like what you read, tell them so. Typically, people only bother to use Talk pages when they have an "issue" with the article, thus automatically giving a negative connotation to them, and making it inevitable for arguments to arise on the pages. Remember that when training an animal (and humans *are* animals), positive reinforcement is vital. If 9 out of 10 monkeys do what you want, in the long term rewarding the nine can do more than punishing the one. Isn't there a fable or saying or something about "the carrot is more powerful than the stick"?
- Try posing comments as questions, especially if you're not totally sure. Instead of saying, "Everyone knows abortion is murder of the innocents," you could say, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" and it comes across as less like pure flamebait, as though you're willing to allow for other points of view.
- Limit and qualify your statement. Blanket statements or statements asserting the truth of opinions can inflame the reader, and sometimes if you identify it as your own personal point of view, it can help make it seem less insulting to those who disagree. For example, instead of saying, "Isn't abortion just murder of the innocents?" it could be better to say, "Certainly I am not the only person who believes abortion is just murder of the innocents?" In this way, you can still emphasize your strong feelings on the topic, and communicate exactly the same opinion, but do so in a less inflamatory way.
- Acknowledge that you understand the other point of view, by showing yourself able to restate it fairly. "I understand that you feel a woman's freedom of choice in the matter of abortion is important, but certainly I am not the only one who disagrees with this and thinks that abortion is just murder of the innocents."
- Help in moderating other people's disagreements, when you come across them. Same concept as pulling two people engaged in a fist fight apart. Sometimes just pointing out that the discussion has gotten too heated and that they need to chill out can help a great deal to tone things down and to emphasize that in this community, public verbal sparring is _unacceptable_. "Hey guys, you're going around and around on this abortion debate; it seems illogical that we could solve this issue here on wikipedia when it's been fought over for years. Both of you seem to have strong opinions on this matter -- perhaps we should remove this debate and make room for someone with less bias."
- Avoid writing on topics you are overly passionate about. The rule here is to write articles neutrally. It's hard to be unbiased when you're biased. ;-)
- Finally, As a Last Resort, when you've tried to work in a cooperative spirit and are not getting through, or when an editor keeps replacing npov writings with their own personal ideology, there is one last thing you can do to improve the situation. Walk away. Yes, walk away. Just bookmark the page, and come back in a week or two. Ideologues tend to give up when the general consensus to stick to the npov proves too strong to override. Also, Misplaced Pages's npov policy is supported and defended by many Wikipedians, so you don't have to singlehandedly uphold it. Attempting to do so sometimes just escalates the problem.
Most of the above suggestions can be summarized very succinctly: Be Polite. It's more important (and useful) than you may think.
How to avoid abuse of Talk pages
We are editing each others' work, and when working on political and other incendiary topics, inevitably, a lot of the edits reflect our personal biases. Very often, political disagreements are interpreted as personal insults, or attacks on our intelligence, dignity, cherished values, or honesty. Egos can get wounded and concomitant attacks and defensiveness are all too natural. So, the talk pages are there--and are used to duke it out verbally.
But we can avoid many of these situations. We have to bear a few things in mind:
- The basic purpose of the talk pages is to help improve the article to which the talk page is attached.
- Misplaced Pages is not a debate forum--that's not what it's designed for. If you want to debate, there exist more appropriate venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis.
- The fact that someone disagrees with you does not mean that (1) the person hates you, (2) the person thinks you're stupid, (3) the person is stupid, (4) the person is evil, etc. There are many things you can falsely infer from the fact that someone disagrees with you. It is best not to infer anything at all along those lines, and let that person live with his or her own opinion in peace.
- Before adding a comment to a talk page, ask yourself:
- Is this really necessary? Why can't I simply edit the article with a summary and leave it at that? Won't it be obvious what I've done and why?
- Will I actually succeed in changing any minds? If not, what point does the discussion have, given that the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create encyclopedia articles?
- Am I adding this comment simply because I want to defend my ego and advance my own cause?
- If I really want to continue this debate, is it of general interest, or would it be better to take it to e-mail?
- Efficiency often requires silence.
So let's please, please conscientiously avoid trying to use Misplaced Pages as a place where partisan controversies can be settled.
Objections and replies about the use of Talk pages
What look to you like partisan controversies are usually very useful discussions that result in an improved article.
- That is sometimes the case--but often it isn't. Debates on such pages as talk:abortion, talk:cultural imperialism, and talk:sports utility vehicle have very often strayed into discussions that have nothing to do with improving the article. That, at the very least, is the sort of thing we're talking about.
The controversy might look irrelevant, but eventually the topic will come back around to something having to do with the article.
- Sometimes that does happen, and so much the better. But why not get right to the relevant topic and skip the intervening wrangling? Moreover, of course, very often in our experience the discussion doesn't come back around to anything having to do with the article--it results, instead, in hardened positions. (As though defending hardened positions had anything to do with writing an encyclopedia!)
Well, the talk page controversies get people excited about Misplaced Pages. Would you rather that they not be excited? A controversy-less wiki would be boring. Maybe the controversy actually brings more people to Misplaced Pages.
- The controversies do bring some people back to Misplaced Pages, perhaps--but it's equally reasonable to say that they also turn off a lot of other people, the sort of people who don't ever engage in such controversies. You should also bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is extremely exciting quite apart from the controversies--exciting enough all by itself to keep us coming back.
But I'm free to do whatever I please here. This is a Wiki, right?
- No, you're not free to do anything here; Misplaced Pages doesn't belong to you. This is something most people learn to deal with by the time they're seven years old or so, though some people clearly never learn. This server is the private property of Bomis, Inc., who graciously chooses to allow nearly everyone to do certain things that serve its goal of creating an encyclopedia. If you don't agree with their goals or their methods, you can certainly discuss that with them, but if they make a decision it is theirs to make. If you can't support those goals, then go buy your own server.
A little partisan controversy never hurt anybody. We all know we're ultimately engaged in building an encyclopedia. Why try to stop people from doing what comes naturally? A little controversy won't spoil anything--I don't see what you're concerned about.
- Good point, maybe we are blowing things out of proportion, a little. Even if Misplaced Pages would continue to grow and thrive with the controversy, some of us think it would be better off without it. It seems we have wasted hundreds of hours, altogether, engaged in pointless debates that we could have avoided with tact, maturity, and attention to the task at hand. We could have been rather further along than we are now, perhaps with more participants, as well. If we can start a good anti-partisan-bickering habit now, then, in the years ahead, future Wikipedians will thank us for it.
Debate vs. research
Arguing as a means of improving an article is a pale shadow of an equal amount of time engaged in research. It may attract people to the project, but it seems logical that these would be people interested in arguing, which leads down a dark path we ought not tread.
One habit that would be good for folks to get into is to actively seek to summarize discussions, especially those which have elaborated all views on the subject. This doesn't (necessarily) mean replacing the entire discussion with what you think, merely trying to recast the entire discussion as, e.g., a set of bullet points, removing any points that have been taken back or proven incorrect. If you can restrain yourself to do this in an unbiased fashion (which admittedly is hard), it can result in text which is almost good enough for the main article.