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This article was nominated for deletion on January 31, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on February 1, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Archives
Archive 1: 2003 — August 2006 Archive 2: August 2006 — December 2006 Archive 3: December 2006 — March 2007 Archive 4: March 2007 — April 2007 Archive 5: April 2007 — July 2007 Archive 6: July 2007 — October 2007

Some comments

1. As others have said, we have to seperate between stupidity and pseudosciences. Fairies is stupid but not a scientific stupidity.

2. We have to make it clearer that is psuedoscientific about a subject and that is not. To just write Tunguska event and nothing more, makes is seem that the Tungaska event didn't happen. This is wrong. We should write something like:

Antimatter Tungaska event - the belief that the Tungaska event was not caused by a meteor but by antimatter or similary anomalous causes.

Other subjects that may need rewriting is

• Ball lightning - ball lightings exist. Only some new age uses is psuedo.
• Hypnosis - exists.
• Meditation - exists. Maybe use "Magical meditation - people that states that they can no magical tricks by meditation."
• Stock market prediction - exists. Maybe use "False economic models. Many parts of modern economics makes predictions they have no sound scientific base to support."
• Out-of-body experiences - is it not better to use "life after death" as the psuedoscience.

Should we not add religion, god and soul as psudoscientific concepts?

3. Some things are not big enough to include. Laundry balls - never heard about. Delete?

4. We should seperate between obscure and parody pseudoscience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.108.234 (talk) 00:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Reko 23:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

For God and souls, it seems difficult to find source about people trying to make these concepts look scientific. But yeah, it is not really clear when something is simply unscientific or really pseudoscientific. Kromsson 10:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You missed the "Finally, some of these items are not considered pseudoscientific in and of themselves: only certain aspects, explanations, and/or applications of them. See an item's description text for more information on this" bit. Simões (/_contribs) 14:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, both of us did. Kromsson 00:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Bible Codes anyone?

Should the bible codes be listed here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.233.178.253 (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting definitions of list

The list as structured has conflicting purposes. Is it for anything called pseudoscientific by any critic or for areas where there is a clear consensus that a subject is pseudoscientific? If the latter, evidence of this should be on the article's page (and/or presented here). If the former, the article is misleadingly (and leadingly) titled, as are sections thereof. Some clarification is needed - you can't have it both ways (i.e. include disputed areas but title this article as if only undisputed items are included). Hgilbert 10:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I have moved certain subjects from the main list to a disputed area. References are supplied in the article for the dispute (except for biorhythms, which still needs positive citations). Hgilbert 13:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The purpose is kind of between those two extremes. The razor we came up with a while back is that we'll include it if it's called pseudoscience (or described as such, the actual word isn't necessary) by either a notable scientific body or a notable skeptic or skeptical organization. So, in the former case, it would likely be representing consensus of the scientific community, while not so much in the latter case. Of course, for something like this, there's the possibility of disagreement (particularly between skeptics when it comes to borderline issues, such as acupuncture). What to do in that case isn't clear, though I think it would be appropriate to leave it in with a note that it's disputed and briefly explain the dispute. --Infophile 16:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

To expand a bit, I really don't think a "disputed" section is a good idea. I've all too often seen pseudoscientists try to fram their subject as being "disputed" in order to make it look better. In actuality, most of these cases have been resolved by mainstream scientists and it's just a few fringe scientists who are trying to keep the dispute alive. Also, to show there really is a dispute in an area, a single source by someone saying there's a dispute or disagreeing with mainstream consensus isn't sufficient. There will always be people out there (even some scientists) who disagree with well-established theories. Just look at evolution - among biologists, it's taken for granted at this point, but there are scientists all over the place who disagree with it and try to frame it as a dispute (see Teach the Controversy). --Infophile 16:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is a range between genuinely disputed areas (e.g. acupuncture), marginally disputed areas and areas only disputed by fringe elements (e.g. evolution, or the roundness of the earth for that matter). There are also areas, however, that are clearly not pseudoscientific (e.g. meditation, ball lightning, subliminal perception) on this list. Whether the latter two exist or not is an ongoing scientific question; to prejudge this is bad science. The Misplaced Pages entry on ball lightning certainly indicates that there is serious scientific research on the question.

The article says of the areas listed: "a majority of the work ... done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature." This claim is not proven for quite a number of the items, either here or in the corresponding articles. In fact, several of them assert that the contrary is true; that serious work is ongoing. An unsupported claim should either be dropped or proven. If the article is simply a collection of everything skeptic groups, or even single individuals, (both of which are by definition not neutral) consider pseudoscientific, it should be clear about this too.

The terminology and qualifications for being listed should be brought into line. Hgilbert 18:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you make some good points there. I think the question we have to ask here is along the lines of what this list should be, rather than simply what it is or what it says it is. Once we decide on that, we can rework all sections as appropriate. Personally, I believe the article should include any subject for which the pseudoscientific research into it is notable and not in an extreme minority (and we should of course describe this in the comments about it). My reasoning is simply that if there's significant pseudoscientific research into Ball lightning, for instance, it would make sense for it to be linked from here, no? --Infophile 21:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with this approach, but the list's name and the introduction should then be changed. You can't include ball lightning in a list of pseudosciences, or assert that it is a pseudoscience, when there is ongoing and genuine scientific research into the subject. Let's decide what we want and then title and introduce it accordingly. A broadly inclusive policy will require a title such as "List of concepts critiqued as pseudoscientific". Hgilbert 01:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

We've gone back and forth on this title a lot in this article. If you haven't already, it might be a good idea to go over some of the archives to see what's lead to the current title. I'll probably do that myself as well, since I wasn't around when this last change was made. After that, we can possibly restart discussion on it if you still feel the need. --Infophile 03:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Questioning topics' inclusion

All right, I've gone through the recent archives and the arbitration proceedings. Some questions: First of all, I cannot see many of the footnotes (those formatted like this: {{ref|}}. They are invisible to my browser somehow. Do they exist?

I see problems that remain with the following areas:

1. Scientific areas. The following belong to science, not pseudoscience.
   1. Ball lightning. This appears to have once been questioned but now accepted by scientific authorities.
   2. Hypnosis. This certainly happens. There are no citations either here or in the hypnosis article to support its listing here.
   3. Multiple personality disorder. Clearer description that it is not the disorder, but paranormal explanations of the disorder that are in question.

1. Non-scientific areas. These are not pseudoscience, but non-science. I propose removing the following items from the list; they are as inappropriate here as "Jainism" would be.
   1. Meditation
   2. Reincarnation

In some cases, there are citations in this article supporting a topic's scientific foundation, but none supporting the claim that they are pseudoscientific or undermining this foundation!!! I have fact-tagged these items.

Finally, whatever standard the article applies, documentation needs to be present as to how the topic meets this standard. Hgilbert 16:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

Allow me to be of service. Please check out Misplaced Pages's policy for Stand-Alone lists. Please pay close attention to the "Lead and Selection Criteria" portion of the policy which begins: Lists should begin with a lead section that presents unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources. -- Levine2112 17:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the present lead section meets that criterion. Hgilbert 18:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. From my perspective, it reads a little ambiguously. -- Levine2112 18:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I reread the lead section, and there are some issues. The last paragraph is self-contradictory about hypnosis, for example:

are included, however, in that a majority of the work being done in them (or having been done) is of a pseudoscientific nature. For instance, while many proposed explanations for hypnosis are pseudoscientific, the phenomenon is generally accepted as real and there are scientific explanations for it as well

Is the majority of work pseudoscientific or is the phenomenon generally accepted as real?Hgilbert 20:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. Hence the ambiguity. I truly believe that this list would be more maintainable if you limited it to items which only notable bodies of scientists have declared as pseudoscientific. I think including the opinions of certain skeptic organization muddies inclusion criteria with politics rather than pure science. -- Levine2112 00:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A little like listing "Communists" on the basis of the Committee for Un-American Activities' work? Hgilbert 11:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As absurd as it may sound, that isn't a bad analogy at all. -- Levine2112 16:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ball Lightning

I would like to call into question the reasoning for adding the ref tag to the ball lightning entry. What would properly satisfy the editor in question who added the tag in order to have it removed? There are numerous ref's that can added from the ball lightning entry to support the anecdotal evidence, but is it really worth adding more ref's to the page that already has a ton? From reading through the ref's on the entry, there does not seem to be a single entry that discusses more than 2 specific instances. Thoughts? Cheers!!! Baegis 19:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Both in the main article and in this list entry, there is documentation that ball lightning exists and is a matter of scientific study. However, there is no documentation in either location that documents why it should be included in a list of pseudosciences. (Anecdotal evidence is not per se pseudoscientific.) Hgilbert 20:30, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There are accounts of people claiming to have seen ball lightning, but I would not go as far as saying that there is documentation of it existing. As you mentioned, anecdotal evidence is does not qualify it has pseudo-scientific but it also doesn't make a good case for its existence. The scientific community may be leaning towards acknowledging its existence but until it can be replicated, it is still an area shrouded in controversy. As to its inclusion on this list, I have my doubts. I guess it all depends on the the lead. And from how it reads now, I think that ball lightning might warrant exclusion. Cheers!!! Baegis 22:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The entry in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience merely states that evidence is anecdotal and varied explanations are given; it does not use any term related to pseudoscience. Nor is it up-to-date; the more recent scientific consensus is that it exists, and the phenomenon is now better understood. The entry should be removed. Hgilbert 00:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." Also, the list item and the cited article don't say outright that ball lightning doesn't exist. Simões (/_contribs) 00:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If you don't mind Simoes, could you point me in the direction of the particular entry you are referring to above. With the ref's being busted, it doesn't help to support anyone's particular case right now and I would like to read it, if possible. Cheers!!! Baegis 00:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Volume 1, Section 1 (Important Pseudoscientific Concepts) of The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. The article is on page 48. Simões (/_contribs) 01:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

While I don't doubt the entry in the SEoP, I do have to ask why a mention of pseudoscience is nowhere present on the actual Ball Lightning entry, yet it is included here. Methinks that if it did qualify as pseudoscience, it would warrant a mention on it's own page. Thought we should discuss that on the talk page for Ball Lightning, we need to address that problem here as well. Baegis 16:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, for this article, we have it properly sourced, so it should stay in. You do raise a good point that we should probably then include this information at Ball lightning, but this doesn't mean we should remove the entry from here until that's done. --Infophile 16:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right about it meeting the current criteria. I have therefore moved ball lightning to a section for natural phenomena for which there is only anecdotal evidence, and have therefore been doubted by skeptics, but which mainstream science does not question. Hgilbert 10:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

References

As mentioned above, many of the references in this article seem not to function (those formatted with {{ref}} templates, in particular). Shall we remove them, or does someone know something I don't? Hgilbert 23:59, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to replace dead links with requests for citations if there is no other solution. Hgilbert 18:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think someone broke these references along the way. I'll fix it in a bit. Simões (/_contribs) 22:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems we have at least 55 refs but we only show 49 in the reflist. Some of the refs are formatted as such: {{ref|}}. Is this a problem? -- Levine2112 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fixed. Simões (/_contribs) 22:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Title

If we stay with the current criteria for entries in this list, I suggest that we change the article title. The situation with ball lightning makes this evident; try this topic in Google Scholar and a host of scientific studies of the phenomenon come up, including book length works. The New Scientist article cited above makes it evident that there is no longer serious doubt about the existence of the phenomenon, only about its cause. The Misplaced Pages Ball lightning article records no dispute about the topic's scientific validity. Yet, because it is (apparently) mentioned in a single skeptical work, probably with no citations at all to document its pseudoscientific nature, it can be included in this list.

If an area of serious scientific study can be listed here on such a basis, then the list's title cannot claim that its entries are definitively pseudosciences - only that someone, somewhere, has claimed this, even if the scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against that individual or body. How about "List of topics ever termed pseudoscientific"? Then we get to include psychoanalysis, cryogenics, Zen and sunspot cycles (all in Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience). Hgilbert 02:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

From the article: "Finally, some of these items are not considered pseudoscientific in and of themselves: only certain aspects, explanations, and/or applications of them. See an item's description text for more information on this" Simões (/_contribs) 02:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are, of course, areas like this, and we should be careful to avoid tainting a field with a tar brush meant for certain of its interpreters. This may need review, as well; are we careful enough with this distinction for the general reader?

I was discussing a more general divergence between the criteria for inclusion and the title, however. If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria. But it is not verifiable to call the field a pseudoscience, merely a field someone has once mentioned in this context. That's different than a list of verifiably pseudoscientific fields, meaning there is a broader consensus than a single individual in a contested area.

Note that I am not here concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus towards pseudoscience except for a few fringe supporters/investigators. I am concerned about areas where there is a broad consensus toward science but a few fringe skeptics. This seems to be the problematic situation where the article title implies a consensus that need not exist for inclusion here. Hgilbert 16:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If one hundred scientists have done serious work in a field but one skeptical writer has called the field pseudoscience, the field qualifies for inclusion here according to the list's criteria. - Well, that depends. Are these scientists or "scientists"? You really have to be careful these days, especially with many pseudoscientific endeavors getting scientific funding. But anyways, it's not just one skeptical writer that's required, it's a notable skeptical writer. It has to be someone who's earned respect as a skeptic (as an easy measure, they should probably have a Misplaced Pages entry which makes mention of this aspect of them). Even in this case, if you can source significant dissent from this opinion (by other sources which meat the same criteria), then it might be reasonable to not include an entry. --Infophile 16:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's the situation with ball lightning. It appears to be a subject of considerable serious scientific research - there are pages and pages of book-length and journal treatments on Google Scholar. But one encyclopedia appears to consider it pseudoscientific, and this apparently solely because people have seen the phenomenon often (which is all anecdotal evidence means). We only have analytical evidence that things fall down when dropped, for example, but gravity is not considered pseudoscience. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought one of the guiding principles of Wiki was that all notable viewpoints must be presented. How can an article that simply requires one source to state as fact that something is an example of X, irrespective of how many competing (better? more authoritative?) sources exist, and without even mentioning the existence of those sources, itself be allowed to exist? The title should be changed to "things that have been called pseudoscience." As things stand the article is little more than a piece of POV pushing sleight of hand.Davkal 19:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This is the point. Hgilbert 19:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should come up with a sort of litmus test to evaluate a claim for inclusion on this list. There are obvious pseudo topics (creationism, magnet therapy) but there are other topics whose qualifications have to be questioned. I really do think that it all comes back to how the Lead introduces the topic. I will work on something that will hopefully give a more concrete definition for inclusion in the list. Cheers!!! Baegis 00:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And then let's make sure the title reflects the criteria. Hgilbert 00:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's an idea: all that needs to happen is a careful evaluation of all reliable sources. If the sources that evaluate a subject to be pseudoscience are more mainstream and more reliable than the sources which claim it isn't pseudoscience then we should include it in the article. Otherwise, I think we shouldn't. ScienceApologist 14:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Eugenics?

I don't personally consider eugenics to fall under the definition of "pseudoscience" proper, but it is often, often referred to as such. My thoughts on it might be that it could fall into a somewhat separate category here, if others agreed: things often referred to as pseudoscience, often because specific historical forms of it engaged in what we might call pseudoscience in retrospect, but depending on the current definition of the term may or may not fall under any strict definition of pseudoscience. But maybe that is a bit too wordy. Anyway, just a thought I had. --24.147.86.187 20:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Ours is not to question why, ours is but to report what reliable sources say on the matter. Simply put, we have a source for the claim that eugenics is a pseudoscience, so it goes in. Counteracting this based on our own beliefs is original research. --Infophile 16:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't actually see eugenics listed on this page. Baegis 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Anthroposophy POV-pushing

I understand that User:Hgilbert is a fan of anthroposophy, so that may explain why anthroposphy was so unduly characterized with kid gloves. In particular, the evaluation of the sources discussing this subject was obviously biased. Classifying anthroposophy under the categorization of "conflicting studies" is quite disingenuous as the subject has absolutely zero support from the scientific community for its pseudoscientific aspects. ScienceApologist 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? So far as I know, there is also zero criticism of anthroposophy from the scientific community. The skeptical sources used here are not scientific ones. The article quoted a verifiable source stating that there were conflicting philosophical evaluations of claims that inner experience can be treated with similar scientific rigor as outer experience; this source was removed without justification by the above editor. POV-pushing, i.e. excluding certain POVs and pushing others, is indeed out of place here. So are personal attacks. Hgilbert 16:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Before this begins an edit war, which it looks like it might, let's discuss this on the talk page a little. What do ya say? Raise a pint and talk a bit? Baegis 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the source referenced to include anthroposophy and anthroposophic medicine in this article, the Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. As far as I can see, the relevant article does not refer to either of the two as pseudoscience, nor does it use any phrasing equivalent to this. At the moment, including the two in this list appears to be Original research. The articles are written by a person with no academic qualifications; the only critical commentary in the article - which has nothiing to do with pseudoscience - is cited to a self-published website. I'm not clear how this is an encyclopediac source, and it clearly does not support the entry here. Hgilbert 02:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I humbly recommend that User:Hgilbert cease from editing this page as his direct association with anthroposophy is a direct conflict of interest. Typical of many advocates who dislike seeing their pet ideas labeled as pseudoscience, Hgilbert has decided to attack the source of the criticism rather than acknowledge the marginalization of his particular belief per WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. I note also that the sources used to claim that there is "inconclusive" or "active research" in regards to the subject are themselves highly biased meta-studies that are not published in journals devoted to scientific experimentation. ScienceApologist 11:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

How about instead of having an editor leave, we follow through with evaluating the sources on each side in order to find out it's inclusion. In going with what SA mentioned earlier, "all that needs to happen is a careful evaluation of all reliable sources. If the sources that evaluate a subject to be pseudoscience are more mainstream and more reliable than the sources which claim it isn't pseudoscience then we should include it in the article." Lets evaluate the sources for each so that we can not only have a well-sourced claim but we can evaluate the criterion for inclusion. Baegis 15:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to say that Hgilbert should leave, only that he should be judicious in how he edits this article considering his conflict of interest. I encourage him to give some input here, but I don't expect that his association with anthroposophy will enable him to fairly characterize the subject. ScienceApologist 15:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest with Baegis that we need to evaluate the arguments on their merits. We seem to have one source that does not support what it is claimed to support here, and is an article written by someone who has no professional or academic standing in the field. We have another source, which does support what it is claimed to support, is published by a mainstream academic publishing house, and is written by someone who is a recognized expert in the field. Please correct me if this summary is in any way incorrect. Hgilbert 16:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, the problem with using the writings of someone so closely connected to the field is that they have a vested interest in seeing that their field is portrayed in a good light. A sort of appeal to authority, if you will. Baegis 16:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, could you be more specific to whom you are referring, that is, which of the cited sources "has a vested interest"? Merci, EPadmirateur 16:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The "recognized expert" in the field. Baegis 17:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to be so dense: do you mean Hgilbert or Robert Todd Carroll? Hgilbert is an editor and not a cited source. The sources he cites are reliable and authoritative as far as I can see. If you mean Hgilbert, then you are really questioning the motives of an editor: I think we need to assume good faith in such cases. If you mean Carroll, I believe Hgilbert raises a question about Carroll as a reliable source, so that's what needs to be discussed. --EPadmirateur 19:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand the justification for this edit which removed several statements and references with the justification being "material was used because it was cherry-picked and unreliable". I don't understand the reasons given. ScienceApologist, can you be more specific what problems you have with the citations of von Rohr et al., Edzard Ernst, Alm et al., and Carlo Willmann? They all look like reliable, authoritative sources to me and support the statements that you removed. Merci, EPadmirateur 17:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Mostly, those sources are not directly relevant to the question of whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or a based on pseudoscientific concepts. Perhaps "unreliable" is not the right word: "irrelevant" may have been better. These sources discuss what may be perceived by some to be positive benefits of aspects of anthroposophy. There, indeed, may be many positive benefits for lots of pseudoscientific beliefs. Indeed, the placebo effect of people associating their magnetic bracelets with pain relief is very real: that does not mean that the process of creating a magnetic therapy bracelet is therefore scientific. See the problem? ScienceApologist 17:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's take one at a time: von Rohr, et al. is a peer-reviewed paper by mainstream medical doctors, statisticians, etc. in a recognized Swiss medical journal which characterizes anthroposophical medicine specifically as "complementary" and not alternative: "Anthroposophical cancer treatment is applied in a complementary (additional to conventional medicine) rather than an alternative way." (p. 1183). This is a reliable source and gives a more authoritative characterization of anthroposophical medicine, I believe, and it justifies the use of that term to characterize anthroposophical medicine, as Hgilbert had it worded.

Furthermore, the article states "Our main conclusion is that theoretically it is possible to find study designs which respect the holistic character of alternative or complementary cancer treatments and at the same time, produce methodologically correct evidence on treatment effectiveness. But we have also learnt that unexpected obstacles do occur, which made progress difficult." (p. 1183). This study is therefore quite relevant to whether anthroposophical medicine can be studied scientifically, and indeed the authors conclude that such studies can "produce methodologically correct evidence on treatment effectiveness", although there are obstacles that need to be overcome in such studies. So I think citing the von Rohr et al. study would be quite relevant to this article to achieve a neutral point of view and should not be deleted. --EPadmirateur 19:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Ernst 2004 citation, Hgilbert said "No thorough scientific analysis of anthroposophical medicine generally has been undertaken; studies of individual medicines have shown a range of positive and negative results." May I suggest a more recent and comprehensive review of controlled trials of anthroposophical medical complementary cancer therapy (Kienle and Kiene, 2007. Complementary cancer therapy: A systematic review of prospective clinical trials on anthroposophic mistletoe extracts. European Journal of Medical Research, 12:103-119.) ? This study was done by two medical doctors for a peer-reviewed medical research journal, so it should be acceptable as a reliable source. Their conclusions are: "Regarding quality of studies and consistency of results, the best evidence for efficacy of mistletoe therapy exists for improvement of QoL and reduction of side effects of cytotoxic therapies (chemotherapy, radiation). Survival benefit has been shown but not beyond critique." In other words, of the 16 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) and 9 non-randomized CTs (n-RCTs) that were considered, the best studies showed that there was good evidence for the efficacy of the AM mistletoe therapy in improving quality of life (QoL) and reducing side effects. There was also evidence suggesting an improvement in survival but some of these studies could be criticized.

I'm not suggesting that these results be cited in this article, only that there are reliable sources (this one and the "better" studies that it cites) that suggest a countervailing view, namely that anthroposophical medicine is not pseudoscience. The efficacy of AM therapies can indeed be, and are, studied with scientific rigor. In fact, I believe that point warrants moving the anthroposophical medicine entry back to the Disputed subjects section, because the question is in dispute. --EPadmirateur 05:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Alm et al. (1999) Lancet study, Hgilbert stated "An 'anthroposophic lifestyle' has been shown to reduce atopy." Lancet articles are certainly reliable sources. Again, may I suggest a more recent study following on from this 1999 study, namely, Flöistrup, et al. (2006). Allergic disease and sensitization in Steiner school children. The Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 117(1), 59-66. Reprint copy? This study is a similarly reliable source from a peer-reviewed scientific journal authored by 16 MDs, PhDs and ScDs, involving 6,630 children age 5 to 13 in five European countries, which concluded that certain practices of anthroposophical doctors, such as restrictive use of antibiotics and antipyretics, are significantly associated with a reduced risk of allergic disease in children. Again, it's not the study's result that need be cited but the fact that the practices of anthroposophical doctors can be, and are, studied scientifically and their efficacy judged. So again, the question whether anthroposophical medicine is pseudoscience is in dispute, based on reliable sources. The requirement to maintain a neutral point of view means that the viewpoint that anthroposophic medicine is not pseudoscience be given due weight. Again, I would suggest that anthroposophic medicine be placed in the Disputed subjects section. --EPadmirateur 05:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Carlo Willmann (2001) reference, Hgilbert stated "The possibility of such a systematic is disputed and the question remains unsettled." The anthroposophy article contains the following statement: "Anthroposophy aims to attain in its investigations of the spiritual world the precision and clarity of natural science's investigations of the physical world. Whether this is a sufficient basis for anthroposophy to be considered a 'spiritual science' has been a matter of controversy.", citing this same source. I don't have a copy of this book. The citation on the book at Google books says that it was Willmann's doctoral thesis at the University of Vienna. The book's bio say that he studied theology. The publisher (Boehlau Verlag in Germany) is a mainstream publisher. Therefore I contend that the Willmann source is a reliable source, being a doctoral dissertation in theology from a major university. Hgilbert may want to quote what Willmann says more specifically, but if a PhD dissertation contends that the question of scientific analysis of inner experience is "unsettled" or a "matter of controversy", that ought to be enough to warrant inclusion of Hgilbert's original statement in the Mysticism, religion and belief section, if this countervailing viewpoint is to be given due weight. --EPadmirateur 06:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The cited encyclopedia labels it an "important pseudoscientific concept." I'm not sure what else you could want. Simões (/_contribs) 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a copy of the two encyclopedia articles (on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine), neither of which contains the statement you cite. Could you be more specific about where you found this statement?

In any case, the author of the article has neither expertise nor qualifications in any related field, nor does he cite any author with such expertise or qualfications. In addition, if known POV bias on a subject excludes use here he must be rejected on this basis. Carlo Willmann both has such qualifications and also cites further sources, both non-anthroposophical (Dr. Heiner Barz, a professor of education) and anthroposophical (Kiersch, etc.) that support the contention that the claims of anthroposophy to a scientific methodology are taken seriously, even defended by established academic authorities not themselves connected to anthroposophy. Hgilbert 11:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, Willmann doesn't have qualifications to demarcate science and pseudoscience as far as I can tell, and he doesn't make any claims to this effect in the citations provided by anthroposophy supporters. Whether or not anthroposophy supports "scientific methodology" is a question that is one removed from the designation because we need to know first of all it what fashion anthroposophy is considered pseudoscience. From what I understand, it is pseudoscience of the mystical source, akin to creation science or other attempts to "prove" the existence of the spiritual. That is not an issue of methodology but rather one of falsifiability. Unless you have sources which indicate that there are anthroposophists who are willing to accept studies which could disprove their ideas then there really isn't any point in including "counterpoints". ScienceApologist 22:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

He actually does address the issue extensively in a five-page subsection of the book titled "Anthroposophy as spiritual science"; here he reviews various contributions to the subject from a variety of people who have addressed the issue, all of whom have appropriate both academic and professional credentials, and comes to the conclusion quoted in the article - that the area is a disputed one - and a second one which I'll try to summarize below:

Willman suggests, with citations, that there are three different levels of scientific work, each with a methodology specific to it, but that there are meta-methodological (my term, not his) consistencies that allow one to define a broader scientific methodology. His first form, natural science, makes exact physical measurements that are repeatable. His second form, the social sciences and humanities, addressing as they do the realm of human experience, require a methodology of dialog and interpretation but nevertheless possess methodologically controllable techniques. His third form, "contemplative knowledge", though achievable in clearly defined steps of meditative procedure, is not methodologically verifiable in the sense of the first two. He quotes G. Altner, Die Wahrheitsfrage als Herausforderung : "One must not play off these models against one another as if any one of them possesses a monopoly that makes the others superfluous." He emphasizes that each form of scientific knowledge must ensure that "charlatans" are exposed, must be open to challenges by the others, but also must be accepting of the other forms.

I suggest that Willman is the only review of the issue we have by a competent authority; certainly the only one that cites and critiques a range of sources rather than just asserting an opinion.

Finally, there are extensive empirical studies of anthroposophic ideas (for example of anthroposophic medicine in medical journals, in educational journals of anthroposophic pedagogical practice, etc.) These are not directly relevant here; it would be original research for us to survey these and draw conclusions - we need to find others who have done this. But use Google Scholar with terms such as "anthroposophic medicine", "Waldorf education", "anthroposophic architecture", etc., etc. and you'll get an overview of how extensive the literature is. Hgilbert 13:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Please follow Misplaced Pages standards for reliability and verifiability. Unless a source does not conform to these, please do not remove it arbitrarily (i.e. because it contradicts your POV). In addition, when an active discussion is in hand, it is bad manners to peremptorily take one-sided action. Hgilbert 11:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could give the reader some basis in comparing the worth of the various sources. For example, the author of the Skeptic's Encyclopedia articles quoted here was denied standing as an expert witness on that very subject in a California court of law. In fact, the judge expressed "'grave doubts about any reliance upon his opinions about anything that has to do with any intellectual endeavor, including anthroposophy'" (from the trial transcript). Shall we continue to compare the strength of the sources? Or just include this last quote in the article so that the reader can make up his/her own mind? Hgilbert 13:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Expert witness on what exactly? What was the case in question? Baegis 16:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

He was denied standing as an expert witness on anthroposophy. See more details in the PLANS article. Or see the actual transcript, p. 28. Hgilbert 22:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Assessing & Rating Sources

Above a few editors suggest we should assess the various sources on offer and decide which are the most reliable and/or authoritative and then come to decision here, on that basis, about whether something is or is not pseudoscience. The editors further suggest that once that decision has been reached here, the less authoritative/reliable sources (in our view) should be ignored completely and the article should then state (as fact) only that viewpoint that we have decided here is the most authoritative/reliable source.

This runs directly counter to Wiki policy in at least two ways. First, it is almost the definition of original research. That is, we research the topic, we assess the evidence, we assess the credibility/authority/reliability of the sources, and we then write our conclusions into the article as fact. Second, it runs roughshod over the notion that all notable viewpoints should be expressed. That is, it means that once we have decided what the truth is, we cherry pick those sources we used for our decision and pretend that competing viewpoints/sources don't exist.

On both counts, then, the proposal should be roundly rejected. The problem here is not solved by coming up with new ways to circumvent Wiki policy. The problem here stems from the fact that whether something is or is not a pseudoscience is not a straightforward matter of fact, but is instead, at best, a complex value judgment. And when we add to that problem the problem of the various meanings/uses of "pseudoscience" (one fairly tight definition that includes almost nothing, one fairly loose one that includes almost everything including many sciences, and one that is simply thrown about as a pejorative by various professional "skeptics"), we can begin to see the underlying difficulties with the article as a whole. That is, the title suggests that there is a list to be compiled in a fairly straightforward manner, but the actuality shows that there isn't.

My suggestion, then, is: change the title to "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience", and then in each case state explicitly in what sense something has been so labeled; or else give it up. Anything else is, as stated above, a mere piece of POV pushing sleight of hand. Davkal 13:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly oppose a name change to the article. It seems to me you are pushing towards wanting to nominate this article for deletion. If that is what you want to do, it is your right, but I don't think it will be a successful move. I'm not sure if you are talking about Science Apologist's idea or not, but I am going to assume you are for the sake of this. His idea doesn't run counter to any Wiki policy of which I am aware. For every contentious article, you have to weigh the different sources for each viewpoint. We are not conducting original research by any means. These "skeptics" you mention do not throw about the term pseudoscience and I think you are mistaken when thinking they include any actual sciences under this banner. In going with what the lead mentions, it establishes the criteria for inclusion. Baegis 16:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Nobody was saying that sources don't have to be weighed and appropriate levels of coverage given in the article - this is the essence of Wiki policy. The reason the proposal above runs completely counter to this is that the suggestion there is to weigh the sources here (on the talk page) and then write the article from the viewpoint of only the "winning" source" - the "losing" sources being left unrepresented in the article. This, as noted, is the antithesis of presenting all notable viewpoints because it is the explicit removal of some/many notable viewpoints/sources in order to present a seemingly factual situation in the article (i.e., x is pseudoscience) where no such certainty exists in actuality. The whole point of including all notable viewpoints being to prevent this kind of thing.

2. "Skeptics" such as Robert Carroll and Michael Shermer do throw the word "pseudoscience about as a pejorative and this article does even worse. That is, things are included in this article on no other basis than they are included in a book called the 'encyclopedia of pseudoscience' - a title that was probably chosen for it's rhetorical appeal rather than any actual analysis, carefully considered or otherwise. How else can one explain the inclusion of "trolls, elves and pixies" in such a book. And this is why there is a pressing need for the sense in which "pseudoscience" is being used to be explained in each case - the refusal to do this, or even to acknowledge the appallingly loose manner in which some items have been deemed pseudoscience is the clumsy piece of sleight of hand referred to above. It's not that far removed from having a list called "people born out of wedlock" and including in it everyone who (my friends) have ever called a bastard. That this is being done is amply illustrated in the "ours is not to reason why" response which is so regularly used to respond to anyone questioning anything in the list. Davkal 17:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be doing original research in the same breath that you denounce it. If you don't think trolls, elves, and pixies have a pseudoscientific air to them, write as much, and get published. Then, if we assess your publication as being reliable, we can cite you as a source! Simões (/_contribs) 18:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to do any research to know that fairies, elves and trolls etc. are not pseudoscience in anything other than a pejorative and largely empty sense of the term meaning roughly: supernatural or mythological or thought previously by some to exist but now thought not to. One only needs a modicum of intelligence. The point being, the one you don't even try to address - preferring instead a non-argument,is that if a list includes, say, elves, then it is not a list of pseudosciences whatever the commercial or rhetorical or pseudointellectual or pseudodscientific thinking that lay behind the choice to include "pseudoscience" in the title. And the further point being, that once we have shown by reference to the inclusion of, say, elves, in such a book, that the title cannot really be taken as evidence that what is included in it s pseudoscience, we should stop using the mere inclusion of things in such a book as a catch all response to anybody who questions why something is included in our list. Unless, of course, you want to honestly name the article "Things that have been labeled pseudoscience" or some such thing. But then if you did that you wouldn't be able to push your POV that the things here are pseudoscience in actual fact. Which is the whole point of the article after all.Davkal 18:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again, I'd keep the personal attacks to yourself. I make no claim about whether any of the items on this list are "in actual fact" pseudoscientific. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Simões (/_contribs) 19:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

1. There was no personal attack of any kind. 2. The title explicitly suggests that the items in the list are pseudoscientific in actual fact. 3. The stuff about verifiability rather than truth is a red herring here because we are talking about: a) the exclusion of sources in direct contradiction of Wiki policy; and b) the spurious argument (non-argument) from "x appears in a book with pseudoscience in its title", to "x is a pseudoscience" and why that lying behind the article reduces the article to a mere POV pushing sleight of hand. 4. Please stop the personal attacks. Davkal 19:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering your past history, it might be best if you distance yourself from this talk page, Davkal. Baegis 19:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent argument, everything I've come to expect from the pseudoskeptic community. Harass, threaten, intimidate but at no point deal with actual points made. Well done!Davkal 19:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't see where this is occurring. Except in your behavior of course. If you would like to contribute to the article, please feel free. If you would rather troll, I'm afraid we can't allow that. Baegis 20:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's calm down. I do agree that X's mere inclusion in the table of contents of a book with a title "Encyclopedia of Y" does not qualify as verifiable evidence that X is an example of Y, absent any content in the article that supports this further. I would hope that anyone with any sense for scientific proof, or academic standards generally, would recognize this as a minimum standard.

This is especially true in the case at hand. Heliocentrism, Thomas Kuhn, Occam's Razor, William Harvey, Meteorites and Kraken all have articles devoted to them in another encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Shall we list these as examples of pseudoscience, too? Otherwise, we will need some content in the article itself that justifies the classification. Hgilbert 22:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a weird strawman you've brought up. If you read the articles on these subjects it is clear that the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience isn't making any claims that these subjects are pseudoscientific. What's your point? ScienceApologist 23:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Ditto for the articles on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine in the Skeptic's Encyclopedia. I assume you're conceding that these should be removed from this list, then? Or do you have a case to make based upon the actual articles? Hgilbert 00:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As has been repeated multiple times, anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine are labeled "important pseudoscientific concepts" in the Skeptic Encyclopedia.Simões (/_contribs) 03:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. The articles themselves clearly state it is a pseudoscientific idea. Are you disputing this? ScienceApologist 15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Three Points: 1. All that has been said up to now is that mere inclusion in the book, irrespective of further content is enough. If these things are in the book then they are pseudoscience, according to that line of argument. But now the argument has changed to require some further statement or clarification in the relevant sections of the book, which Hgilbert has already noted is missing in other cases already included here. That is why it is relevant. 2. Following on from 1) and the point I made above, once we have ample examples of things that are clearly not pseudoscience listed in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience, it is going to take much more than mere inclusion in such a book to make the case for something being a pseudoscince. 3. If you, Baegis, think threats of blocks for personal attacks where no personal attacks are made, and references to past "crimes", and accusations of trolling, followed by requests to stop contributing here are not threats, harassment and intimidation, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the meanings of the words "comment on content, not on contributors".Davkal 00:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I never threatened blocks of any sort as I merely referenced your extensive history of being rebuked for your editing methods. I didn't commit an act of intimidation or harassment. I asked you to to contribute rather than just come in and try to stir up trouble. Considering your past, I don't know if you will be able to do so which is why I suggested you should move away from this article. You're rants about what constitutes pseudoscience isn't actually helping this article. Baegis 00:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

4. Points: 1. I never said you threatened me with a block, Simoes did, just above: "Unless you're aiming to get yourself blocked yet again...". 2. To call someones arguments "rants", and accuse them of trolling, and make no real other points about content, is hardly observing wiki policy with regard to the way to respect the views of others. 3. Whether or not the points I make help the article or not is something that only time will tell and is not for you to decide. And 4. the point now under discussion is whether we should reject the argument, much (ab)used previously, and require something more than mere inclusion in a book with pseudoscience in its title to warrant inclusion in the list. The general view now seems to be that we should. Davkal 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's focus on content and get the whole argument away from editors' personalities. Hgilbert 00:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent idea. So as far as I can tell the point is this: Encyclopedias of pseudoscience contain many entries that are clearly not pseudoscience. Mere inclusion in such a book, then, can in no way be taken to make the case that any given entry is pseudoscience, nor even that the authors intend it to be so taken. In light of this, we must look at the content of each entry for evidence/claims to that effect. Yes?

In addition though, while that would certainly satisfy the obviously essential criterion that entries in the list have at least been labeled pseudoscience (the first problem), it still would not address the exclusion of other competing and/or more authoritative sources. Still, at least it would be a step in the right direction.Davkal 01:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is it listed in the book then? What do you have a problem with being on the list Davkal? Let's just lay it out because you are obviously pointing towards certain items. Baegis 01:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Ummm...we're going in circles. I just pointed out that many topics and individuals are listed in such books (meteorites, Thomas Kuhn, and so on) that are not pseudoscientific. They should have content in the articles that clearly marks them as pseudoscientific (see the intro to the article for the criteria), and should be written by competent authorities (or they don't meet Misplaced Pages standards). Hgilbert 01:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hgilbert hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned here. My point is not about one topic/entry in our list here. My point is a more general one about using the mere inclusion in certain books as a criterion that x is a pseudoscience (primarily because of the titles of the books!). Something that clearly cannot be any such criterion given the obvious examples of non-pseudoscientific entries in such books. And once we have accepted that mere inclusion is no criterion, we have to look further into the each and every entry we want to use here for specific claims or arguments to the effect that x or y or z is a pseudoscience.

In terms a little less abstract: encyclopedias of pseudoscience have been shown to contain many entries that are not strictly speaking (or even loosely speaking) pseudoscience. They have been shown to contain entries ranging from common terms used in "debunking", e.g. Occam's Razor, to people with interesting views on the topic, e.g, Thomas Kuhn, to religious beliefs, e.g., reincarnation, to mythological creatures, e.g., elves and trolls, to alleged paranormal phenomena, e.g., ghosts, to pseudoscience, e.g., phrenology, and a whole host of things in between and beyond that are not so easily classified. Given this, we cannot simply pick any old thing from such books and include it here as "something regarded as pseudoscience" without looking further at the content of each entry. We cannot do this because there is no way to tell from mere inclusion whether the author intends the subject to be fall into the category pseudoscience, as opposed to mere paranormal, or mere mythological or any of the other categories that such books cover. A possible solution would be to change the article's title to "List of Pseudoscientific, Paranormal & Mythological Concepts" or some such thing. Another possible solution is to restrict the entries in the article to only those things that have been explicitly identified as pseudoscience - you could probably identify these ones in the encyclopedias because the entry should begin with something like "x is a pseudoscience..." or "x is a pseudoscientific practice..." or some such thing. A third solution would be to explain in the article that a very loose definition od "pseudoscience is being used such that many of the items in our list are more properly identified as either mythology, or paranormal, or anomalous. This third solution would be a strange one in my view, given how much easier it would be to simply change the title to reflect the actual content of the article. Davkal 09:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Electromagnetic fields and cell phones are also listed under "IMPORTANT PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC CONCEPTS" in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. Maybe the table of contents is not a reliable guide to what we should include on this list...Hgilbert 13:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, the supposed adverse health effects associated with EM fields and cell phones are pseudoscientific and probably should be listed on this page. ScienceApologist 15:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

That is precisely the topic of the EM fields & cell phones article. I added it myself months ago, but someone removed it. Feel free to readd it with the Skeptic Encyc cite. Simões (/_contribs) 21:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Got it. We have a nice Mobile phone radiation and health article too - should that get its own entry, or does the link to elecrosensitivity suffice without crowding the list? Eldereft 23:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Anthroposophy evaluations

This edit removes material which is irrelevant to whether anthroposophy is pseudoscience or not. Whether there are benefits to anthroposophy is irrelevant to whether they are considered psuedoscience or have psuedoscientific characteristics. These points can be listed at the relevant pages (anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine) but do not belong on this page. ScienceApologist 16:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The points are obviously relevant since they counter precisely the points made against anthroposophy. That is, for example, Carroll - who knows next to nothing about the topic - thinks the underlying principles are akin to sympathetic magic (something else Carroll appears to know nothing about) and is therefore out of touch with science; whereas those who do appear to know something about the subject think its epistemic basis is (scientifically)sound. And when a sound underlying epistemology is allied with research which appears to show benefits to, say, anthroposophic medicine, the conclusion is probably science rather than pseudoscience.Davkal 18:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The source quoted regarding the epistemological basis of anthroposophy did not say that anthroposophy had a scientific basis but rather that it had a religious basis. More than that, simply because a practice has benefits doesn't mean that said practice is scientific or pseudoscientific. It is completely irrelevant. Your distrust of Carroll has been noted, but he has been judged by the preponderance of editors to be a reliable source for skeptical demarcation. ScienceApologist 18:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The preponderance of editors here seem to think the points relevant. I am therefore reinserting in line with this notion.Davkal 19:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Really? I haven't seen anybody but you argue that the points are relevant: and I've pretty much demolished your claims to relevancy above. Simply stating something doesn't make it so. ScienceApologist 19:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with SA here, Davkal. Your feelings about Carroll have no bearing on this article. While there may or may not be benefits, any benefits don't warrant exclusion. People may believe in Feng Shui and it may "help" some people but that doesn't rule out it out of this list. Baegis 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's please avoid editing and reverting the controversial entries on anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine until there is a consensus on what they should say. Merci bien, EPadmirateur 20:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I would accept this argument coming from a neutral party, but since you have a couple of hot pokers in the fire yourself, it's very easy to see your argument for "consensus" to be one based on hoping to preserve a commentary which is basically a soapbox for anthroposophy. ScienceApologist 22:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? Proper Misplaced Pages etiquette is not to impugn the motives of editors but to address the content of their edits or their points. My main point earlier was that properly sourced material was added to the two entries to counter the claim that anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine are pseudoscience, in order to give due weight to opposing viewpoints and present a neutral point of view in the article. Rather than discuss the merits of these points, or whether they do in fact support the argument against a pseudoscience here in the Talk section, the edits are removed without discussion and the editors suggesting NPOV are criticized for trying to uphold a core Misplaced Pages policy. Très intéressant, EPadmirateur 00:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of verifiable sources...continuing

In an article with almost no academic sources, and almost exclusively referencing the table of contents of one book as its source, it is a little sad that real citations (to academic journals and books) with clear and obvious relevance are being removed by one user. I am referring to the anthroposophy citations, one about reductions in atopy (through empirical testing and published in the Lancet, which of all sources should be acceptable here) and one about the validity of its epistemological basis. Is it scientific, in order to make a point, to delete Lancet articles and keep citations to people with absolutely no academic or professional qualifications in the field, and who have been judged intellectually incompetent to comment on any field by a verifiable source, as has Dugan, the author of the article in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia presently cited? Hgilbert 16:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Reductions in atopy do not have beans to do with whether the thing reducing the atopy is pseudoscientific or not. The validity of anthroposophy's epistemology is also irrelevant because it simply deals with categorizing the subject as a religion rather than a science. Again, that says nothing about the pseudoscientific nature of some of its claims. Claiming that Dugan is "intellectually incompetent" is quite a bold and unverified statement in itself. It looks to me like your upset that people are criticizing your baby. ScienceApologist 16:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Your above comments are OR. The source is OK. Better than others I have seen used in wiki. There seems to a problem with a lot of the articles where people can choose what they think is a reliable source. I have seen opinions on websites used as reliable sources. It seems reliability is in 'the eye of the beholder' here. Dontletmedown 16:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, we weren't really saying anything here about reliability of the sources, but I point out that there is a guideline on the issue: WP:RS. What's more there just because a source is reliable does not mean it automatically is relevant to the article. ScienceApologist 16:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The Dugan statement was not made by me, but by the federal judge excluding him as a expert witness; I'll insert it into the article so it won't get lost again. That the Lancet study showing reduction in atopy is relevant is made clear by a request on this very talk page to demonstrate that anthroposophy subjects itself to scientific study (and, presumably, can demonstrate valid results). Whether something is confirmed by scientific evidence has a good deal to do with whether it is a pseudoscience or not...unless you ignore empirical evidence. Finally, could you make clear how a discussion of anthroposophy's scientific status and basis is not relevant to whether it is a pseudoscience? Hgilbert 00:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

disputed tag

I have added the disputed tag since there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed. The article excludes presenting notable views by a piece of sleight of hand between the title and the explanation of content (neutrality). Even given the explanation of content the topics included are cherry picked (neutrality again). The definitions of some entries are ridiculous and many ludicrous opinions are presented as fact (factual accuracy).Davkal 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

And I reverted your addition of the tag. It is only disputed by you. Btw, thanks for calling me a sock of SA. Really warms the heart. Baegis 21:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hgilbert disputes for the same reasons. So have a number of others above in the last few days. These points have never been addressed. I have reverted your vandalism. Sockpuppet/meatpuppet who cares. Davkal 21:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you pushing for a revert ban? Please do not add the tags. Also, please stop the personal attacks. Cheers!!! Baegis 21:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems others think the tags are justified, and removing legitimately placed tags is vandalism, so unless you would like a ban I think you should desist. Davkal 22:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This looks like bullying.--Filll 22:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is bullying. We should get some administrator intervention. ScienceApologist 22:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I've been bullied endlessly by Simeos, SA, Baegis and OrangeMarlin. Constant threats of bans, constant references to me rather than the content of my edits, harassment on my talk page, and pretending I'm the only one making a point that has been made by at least three separate editors in the last few days in order to accuse me of disruption.Davkal 22:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

More than one person has jumped on the bandwagon and slapped the disputed tag on the article, indeed - but I can only see one person coming here to argue in its favour, and then the only argument put forward is that "there are many serious concerns about this article that have not been addressed". Please give specific examples of which items are misrepresented, ludicrous, cherry-picked etc. Snalwibma 22:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The examples have had to be given with tiresome monotony above. Perhaps if you read the talk page you would see that a number of editors have expressed exactly the same concerns over cherry-picking entries from sceptical encyclopedias which include other entries that are not included here. A number of editors have also expressed concern over the way the article breaches wiki policy by writing a disclaimer immediately after the title which straightforwardly excludes any source which does not make a positive statement that x is a pseudoscience irrespective of its status. Those editors have also noted that this disclaimer means the article does not reflect it's title and have asked for the title to be changed. And an example of a ludicrous opinion presented as fact: King Tut's curse is pseudoscience.Davkal 22:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with expanding the list and encourage people to do so. Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all (for example, biographies of people like Carl Sagan), but the encyclopedia includes other examples of pseudoscience that are clearly not listed here. No one ever said that the article was exhaustive! ScienceApologist 22:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that "Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all". The problem this creates though is that for about the last 6 months anyone who disputed any entry was simply told that inclusion in such an encyclopedia was enough - the "ours is not to question why" stock response above. And given this, we now need explicit statements in the source rather than simple inclusion. Lets start with the "sceptics" list. I don't want to fact tag them all at once but will do so if appropriate citations cannot be found in the next few days. In the meantime I think it would show good faith if you replaced the disputed tag pending such citations and given that you now concede that mere inclusion, the criterion used until now, can no longer be considered a valid criterion. Davkal 23:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describes a subject as pseudoscience we can included it here, end of story. Ours is not to question why. There is no dispute, simply having the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describe a subject as pseudoscientific is plenty good enough for us to include it here. ScienceApologist 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

But that's exactly what you don't have absent some direct claim to that effect. All you have at the moment is a title of a book and an entry in that book, and you have already conceded that this is no criterion by which to identify pseudoscience - you did that here, look: "Obviously some of the entries in the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience are not pseudoscience at all", and then here again, look: "As long as the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describes a subject as pseudoscience". Grateful if you could replace the disputed tag and then add the appropriate specific citations to the alleged descriptions.Davkal 23:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This point "simply having the Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience describe a subject as pseudoscientific is plenty good enough for us to include it here", is also in direct breach of Wiki policy on expressing opinion as opinion, and detailing all notable viewpoints, and it is in direct conflict with the title of the article. But we will leave that argument until we at least have some evidence that the entries in the current list have at least been called pseudoscience in the first place.Davkal 23:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The subjects cited in this article are all described in the encyclopedia as pseudoscience. Every last one of them. I don't see how it is a breach of policy to let it be known that subjects have been described as pseudoscience by a reliable source. ScienceApologist 23:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

2 points. 1) none of the topics sourced to the encyclopedia of pseudoscience have had clear citations presented re where they have been specifically described as pseudoscience. All that has been offered so far is their mere inclusion in a book called an encyclopedia of pseudoscience. Which, as you concede, contains many entries that are obviously not pseudoscience, e.g., trolls. Unless such specific descriptions actually exist, then, we are no position to simply assert that the source identifies them as pseudoscience rather than, say, as merely mythological, or merely paranormal, or merely religious, or merely anomalous, or any one of the many other categories covered in such books. (King Tut's curse being perhaps the clearest example of something that is so obviously not a pseudoscience as to call your claim into question absent some specific citation. I mean, who in their right mind, surely not even Carroll or Shermer, would call King Tut's curse a pseudoscience?)

2) Even if we get a specific citation from, say, Shermer, it is still a breach of policy to present his opinion as fact - especially when it is highly contentious opinion of a pejorative nature regarding subjects about which he is not an expert. That is, it is totally unacceptable to have an article wholly based on the notion that just because Robert Carroll, or Michael Shermer, say "X", that X is true. This is what the article currently does by pretending that what is in the list is actual pseudoscience (the article is supposed to be a list of pseudosciences in actual fact) rather than merely a list of what a few professional lobbyists with no real expertise in the subject matter have (maybe) claimed is pseudoscience. Opinion should be presented as opinion and not as fact.

My overall point being that I am all for letting the reader know that so-and-so has said such-and-such is a pseudoscience, but only if: a) they actually did say that (and that has still to be shown); and b) it is presented clearly as a case of so-and-so saying such-and-such is a pseudoscience rather than disingenuously as a case of "such and such is a pseudoscience".Davkal 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, King Tut's curse is an excellent example of pseudoscience. It presents a falsifiable claim that has been falsified and yet is still advocated by pseudoscientists. ScienceApologist 00:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that I also agree with the neutrality in dispute tag: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." Rather than get into a revert war, perhaps we can discuss the points that motivated that tag? Perhaps the article's editors will allow countervailing evidence to be presented for a listing? So that the article can present a balanced, neutral point of view? --EPadmirateur 00:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless the countervailing evidence is specifically about demarcation, it does not belong in this article. ScienceApologist 00:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed consensus

I hope we all share in a consensus that:

1. The author of an article cited must qualify as a reliable source.
2. The text of the article must clearly support the use of the term "pseudoscience" by citation to authors who use this or an equivalent classification; mere inclusion in a table of contents does not suffice.
3. Evidence that relates to demarcation belongs in articles. (We may have a demarcation issue with what evidence relates to demarcation, however!)

If we do have such consensus, we can go on to evaluate case by case. If we don't, I support the disputed tag. Hgilbert 00:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Even if we get a specific citation from, say, Shermer, it is still a breach of policy to present his opinion as fact - especially when it is highly contentious opinion of a pejorative nature regarding subjects about which he is not an expert."

Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list, not to make value judgements about X. Also, I think it is a bit absurd to assert that someone needs to be an expert in a particular field in order to objectively evaluate whether there is a scientific basis to the claims made in that field. Shermer is clearly an expert in general scientific principles and experimental methodology, which is all that is required to objectively evaluate most scientific claims. — DIEGO 03:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Above it is argued, "Citing Shermer's contention that X is a pseudoscientific concept is not presenting it as fact. As a notable skeptic and trained researcher, Shermer's opinion on what constitutes pseudoscience is simply being used as a criterion for inclusion in this list". This is simply wrong because what "inclusion in this list" means here is that X is psedoscinectific in actual fact. The general form of the argument: if you use A's contention that "X is a Y" as a criterion (a sufficient condition) for including X in a list of things that are Y, then you are straightforwardly saying that X can be regarded as Y just because A says that X is Y. If you called the article "things that A has said are Y" then there would be no problem, but you don't, you call the article "things that are Y".Davkal 00:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to say that X is regarded as Y becasuse A said it, but the intro paragraph certainly seems to indicate for incluson in this list, a concept must have been labeled pseudoscience by A. (A = notable scientific and skeptical bodies). Am I wrong? If not, and the introduction does imply that X is Y according to A, then you should be trying to change the intro if you disagree with this rationale for inclusion, or else your argument is a bit weak. By the way, I think that as head of the Skeptics Society and a PhD holding scientist, Shermer qualifies as an "A". — DIEGO 00:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand the point completely, please reread it and respond. Davkal 20:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be an under-the-radar attempt to remove one of the verifiable critics of anthroposophy who was dismissed from a rather poorly argued Federal case. In any case, it's pretty clear that anthroposophy inasmuch as it argues for some sort of objective measurement of a human soul is pseudoscience of the same sort as other "scientistic" religions such as scientology or Christian Science. ScienceApologist 03:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Hgilbert's proposal. Unfortunately, after reading the arguments on the talk page it seems that some editors want to use this list to discuss the validity of each individual concept, which would be better suited to the individual articles on the concepts. The introduction to this list makes it clear that concepts included in the list are "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, and/or skeptical organizations." Therefore, any evaluation of sources should focus solely on whether the concept meets this criteria. If a reliable source within the scientific or skeptical community considers X to be pseudoscientific, then it should be included. Any contradictory evidence from a WP:RS supporting the claims of X clearly needs to be included in X's article in order to maintain NPOV, but is irrelevant to X's inclusion in this list. This list should not be a forum for competing sources. That said, inclusion in the table of contents of an encyclopedia of pseudoscience (without a statement in an article explicitly labeling it pseudoscience ) does not seem to meet the burden of evidence. Surely, we can do better than that. If an item on the list is truly considered pseudoscience by the scientific and/or skeptical community, it shouldn't be difficult to find impeccable, easily verifiable sources to confirm this. — DIEGO 03:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not suggesting that someone needs to be an expert in, say, astrology to judge whether astrology is a pseudoscience; rather, that s/he should be an expert with verifiable credentials in a field that would allow him/her to make such a judgment. For example, the philosophy of science, sociology, or a corresponding field. But someone with no professional or academic credentials in any related field (as is the case for at least one of the authors of articles in the Skeptics' Encyclopedia) obviously has no expert standing. That ScienceApologist is defending such a case only makes me want to look into the qualifications of the other authors more closely.

In particular, if Dugan is allowed without any qualifications thereto, what standard are you applying? Sympathy with your POV? What about equally unqualified persons who express the opposite POV - what basis would you have to exclude them? Think it through, you're opening a can of worms.

Finally, this is not the place to thrash out subjects for which there are divided opinions. But the fact that such divided opinions exist should be noted here, according to the NPOV policy. Hgilbert 11:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to strongly recommend that the text that is being cited to verify inclusion is briefly quoted in the article or footnote, especially as it appears that inclusion in an encyclopedia's table of contents continues to be used to justify inclusion here (cell phones, etc.) Hgilbert 16:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Done and done - do you disagree with my assessment or description of EHS? Eldereft 22:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, the description is excellent - both clear and accurate. I especially appreciate the inclusion of and emphasis on the scientific basis for the critique. As far as I'm concerned, this can serve as a model (unless there are here unreported studies that report actual effects; I'm assuming the latter is not the case). Hgilbert 00:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Much as I disagree with Hgilbert in the debate, in the meta-debate these criteria seem reasonable (especially since I do not happen to have a copy of the Skeptic's Encyclopedia to check references). It is necessary, however, to avoid POV-loading in the (succinct) descriptions to each entry. Specifically, the note about anthroposophy and atopy is inappropriate as it deals with a particular aspect of the practice, not what it consists of or what it claims. Additionally, this reference is somewhat disingenuous; Lancet qualifies for WP:RS and the science seems sound (though I am neither a doctor nor a statistician), but it also notes that an "anthroposophic lifestyle" includes denying vaccinations to children, and that "easles has been inversely related to atopy." Eldereft 22:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we can tolerate quite a divergence in the individual issues if we get the framing criteria right. On the specific issue: I agree with you about the atopy reference in terms of it dealing with a particular aspect of the subject; disagree in so far as it demonstrates that anthroposophic medicine is in fact subject to scientific analysis (but again through a particular example rather than through a meta-review). On balance, I will accept its departure gracefully. Hgilbert 00:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually - the EHS entry is clear and concise but missing a citation that supports its inclusion as pseudoscience. This should be added. (I hope everyone understands the distinction: citations to particular scientific work are not evidence for a meta-classification of the field.) Hgilbert 10:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I have clarified point 2 of the proposed consensus. Hgilbert 12:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Above SA wrote, "interestingly enough, King Tut's curse is an excellent example of pseudoscience. It presents a falsifiable claim that has been falsified and yet is still advocated by pseudoscientists." This is patent nonsense, and shows a worrying lack of clarity about the nature of PS. If I claim that the winners of the 2007 World series in Baseball were the San Diego Padres, and continue to claim this even after someone has shown me the record books, this does not make my claim PS. Much, much more is required than that.Davkal 20:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Title Again

What is the point of having an article with a title that says "things that are x", when it is necessary for the first three paragraphs in the article to explain why virtually everything in the article may not actually be an example of x at all. That is, the first para has the qualifier "regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations..." (which means someone has simply called them PS). And this is further qualified in the second para by: "they may have explicitly called a field or concept "pseudoscience" or used synonyms, some of which are identified in the references" (which means they may not have even been called PS, but something like it, some of which we'll tell you about). And this, unbelievably, is then further qualified in the third para by, "Some subjects in this list may be legitimate fields of research and/or have legitimate scientific research ongoing within them" (which is to say that they may actually be scientifically valid after all - ie, not PS). So, in short, we have a "list of pseudosciences" which contains things that have been called pseudoscience, except for those that haven't, and even those that have might not be PS in any event. As Butthead so succinctly put it: STOP in the name of all that does not suck!Davkal 00:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You have a valid point. The criteria for inclusion seem very noncommital (I would guess that it is the result of a compromise), but we do need some operational definition of pseudoscience to justify why concept X is on the list, while concept Y is not. For example, there are practices which have been labeled pseudoscience by notable experts and would seem to fit the criteria for identifying pseudoscience, yet are not on the list (e.g., reflexology, craniosacral therapy, aspects of massage therapy, dubious psychology , etc.). In one particluar case, psychoanalysis, WP:NPOV specifically indicates that this should not be labeled pseudoscience (it is only "questionable science") because it is "has a substantial following". Plenty of the concepts on this list have a "substantial following"; that doesn't make them (or psychoanalysis) any more scientific. Psychoanalysis has been labeled "pseudoscience" by notable scientists and skeptics (Karl Popper among them), so based on the current criteria, it should be on the list (at the very least, in the "disputed" section). I am aware that this cannot possibly be an exhaustive list, regardless of the inclusion criteria, but if laundry balls makes the list, then important pseudoscientific concepts should also be included also. If this list is going to be useful at all, the criteria need to be clearly defined, and the majority of important concepts meeting the criteria should be included, whether they have a substantial following or not. — DIEGO 04:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, Davkal, you are misrepresenting the situation. You are quoting the lead but putting your own comments to get your own results. Do you think that people just walk around and call things PS all the time? All of the things on this list have reliable sources for their inclusion as PS. With regards to the actual name of PS, there are a variety of synonyms for PS, such as junk science which would still be the same thing. Thirdly, just because there is ongoing research into a topic does not mean it is scientific by any means. Research does not automatically convey a title of scientific. I won't go to the trouble of listing examples, but I suppose if you are going to argue, I might have to provide some. And Diego, I do agree there are many more topics that can and should be included in here but this is where the list is now. There probably is not a reason that these haven't been listed just the fact no one has thought to do it yet. The criteria is already clearly defined in the lead. If we want to rewrite the lead in order to allow the reader to better understand it, that is a solid idea. But the criteria is already there. Remember, this is just a list and by no means exhaustive. Baegis 05:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful, Baegis, if you focused in the points made rather than on other ones. The gist of my point is this: it is consistent with all of the first three paragraphs (the inclusion criteria) that not one single item on the list be PS. It is totally inconsistent with the title of the article that any item in the list not be PS. The certainty of the title is therefore completely undermined by the uncertainty of the inclusion criteria. You need to change the title to something more appropriate.Davkal 20:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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