Revision as of 03:20, 17 November 2007

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Edit this section for new requests

User:Aynabend

User:Aynabend, formerly known as user:Ulvi I., is a member of both Armenia-Azerbaijan I. and its sequal and is limited to a 1RR as he is involved in aggressive editing and reversions as observed by his contributions. According to the final decision to both Ar-Az arbitrations, everyone of such is placed on 1RR and is required to leave a comment on the talkpage once they revert an article, in order to encourage discussion. In light of my recent blocking for such, this applies to user:Aynabend who reverted the Shushi article without discussion on the talk page . Not the first time either , although he was not even blocked for this reversion. -- Fedayee (talk) 21:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Fedayee, I'm sorry you were blocked for failing to discuss one revert. I would have just warned you, since your block log has been clean since April. In this case I'm only going to warn Aynabend, since this is the first reported violation after he was placed on notice. I am also going to warn him in regard to VartanM's noting that Aynabend has appeared after a month absence to revert to Atabek's version, something he did here as well. I will also log the warning in case this behavior continues. Thatcher131 23:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Andranikpasha

In accordance with the ruling of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Andranikpasha (talk · contribs) was placed by an admin on a revert parole limiting him to 1 rv per page per week: However, on Shusha article he made 2 rvs in less than 1 week, first by deleting a content from the article , which is considered a revert according to WP:3RR (see ), and then by reverting the page to a previous version here: This is a clear violation of the revert parole by this user. Grandmaster 10:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a violation here. Grandmaster, you're misinterpreting the WP:3RR, deleting alone is not a revert, it is only in the context of removing what another editor has added. It is very unlikely that Andranik checked contributions of months back(February, 2007) and picked a contributor to revert by specifically reverting his changes without changing other edits made since. Part of what he removed was an unsourced claim and the fact tag was there since February 2007. So this makes one and not two reverts. If this was true, simple copy-editing edits would be considered reverts, since you are undoing someone elses work. VartanM (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

In the future, when discussing a revert to an old version, it would help to have a diff that spans the versions, like this, or two diffs that show the reversion, to save time looking for it. The first edit is not a revert; removing content can be a revert but in this case the removed content had been present at least since September, and normal editing it allowed by the probation. The second link is indeed a reversion, there appears to be at least some discussion on the talk page, so as long as Andranikpasha does not revert again before the 21st, there is no violation at this time. Thatcher131 23:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Giovanni Giove

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Blocked for 2 days. Report new violations in a new section. Thatcher131 03:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi.
Hereby I report that user:Giovanni Giove has breached its one-year edit restriction, as decided by Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia.
As You can see from the history of editing of article Jakov Mikalja ], Giovanni Giove has not given any explanation of his actions. All he did was moving of the talkpage to its version. His edit from 18 Oct 2007 , in 13:12.
On the article page, he did four edits (these edits are reverts) on 18 Oct 2007 in 13:12 (moving), on 13:15, in 13:16, in 13:24.
He again ignored other users' contributions, repeated his behaviour pattern shown and described in the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence, for which he was "punished".
I don't want to engage in the edit/revert war. I've given a bunch of material on the article talkpage. I don't know what to do anymore.
Please act as Misplaced Pages policies say (remedies, enforcements and blocks).
Sincerely, Kubura 07:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Note

Marco Polo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Dalmatian Italians (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Giovanni Giove

This matter concerns the final decision of the Dalmatia Arbitration Committee and its final decision (here ) wich restricted User:Giovanni Giove and myself to "one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism)", and it is required we discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page.
With this final decision not one week old, User:Giovanni Giove has already made, not one or two, but a little under two dozen reverts of varying size in the Marco Polo (history page: ) and Dalmatian Italians articles (history page ).
In the Dalmatian Italians article (besides reverting more than once) he also made no attempt whatsoever to discuss his edits, and the discussion page does not have a single explanation of these numerous reverts and provocative edits ().
In the Marco Polo article he quite flagrantly ignored the instructions of the ARBCOM and reverted on several occasions this week (on the same article).

(To whom it may concern,) I edited as well on a few occasions myself, but (as per instructions) i made only one revert per week per article, along with a thorough discussion each time (, , , ).
DIREKTOR 01:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia was up because of continual edit wars and a few unresolved RFC's in several Dalmatia related articles. In all cases User:Giovanni Giove was an iniciator of discussions but concentrated more on his "outistic" editing of the articles and constructively absent in the talk pages. A person totaly blind for sources presented by others. Zenanarh 18:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin response He made a lot of changes, but so far what I saw was editing, not reverting. If you disagree, you can revert (once per week) and then try to discuss the substance of the changes on the talk page. If you believe he has been reverting to previous versions, please show diffs of the old version and the reverts, because I didn't see his edits as reverts. Thatcher131 13:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, Thatcher131, take a look again.

I gave those diffs above, 6 days ago (these deal with article Jakov Mikalja and Talk:Jakov Mikalja). These are from 18 Oct, 13:12 (redirecting; in this sense, it's a kind of revert, because the involved parties had disagreements because of the article name) and reverting 13:15 , and upgrading of revert/his original research, 18 Oct, 13:24 .

See the lines he removed, his removing of adjective "Croatian", as well as his POV-izing/original research/off-topic (section: "Controversy"). In the latter two he also ignored the sources given previously.

Talking about the talkpage of the article Jakov Mikalja (Giovanni Giove must explain his revert actions according to the RFARB decision), user Giovanni Giove gave no explanation till this very day, 30 Oct (12 days have passed and no admin reaction yet!?). And he was supposed to promptly give the explanation (!?!). All he did was the redirect of the talkpage (see the history of the talkpage changes ). In other words, revert warring even on the talkpage.

Other parties substained from edit warring, although Giovanni Giove persisted in his upgrade of his original work (e.g. here , on 29 Oct, in which he ignored all previously given sources on the talkpage).

That's what I call "edit-slaughter". We, obedient users are idiots, because we obey the rule and tolerate the propagandist/vandalic/trollic behaviour and stay calm, while at the same time, Giovanni Giove calmly edits "unprotected" article, without any disturbance from opponents that avoid revert actions and edit war and wait the RFARB enforcement/waiting the admins to react.

Have in mind that Giovanni Giove was blocked (on 24 Sep, 15:47; 72 h block) because of 3RR rule violation (!!!) (see his block log ), during arbitration case (where he got his current, too mild, punishment), that dealt with him. Neither proposed remedies, given before Giove's blocking haven't changed his behaviour (4 days before his blocking, one arbitrator already voted for proposed remedies and enforcement regarding Giovanni Giove). Kubura 10:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what to say... Giovanni Giove advises me to be more creative, but I feel this is a simple matter. The fact that he did revert is painfully obvious. The diffs are here, the violation is here, the only problem is that it isn't easy to search out the reverts among the million other edits this guy made. I know its a pain, but someone must take the time to do this. DIREKTOR 14:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's my third reaction on the admin's noticeboard, after the ones from 24 Oct and 30 Oct.

Director gave reports on 26 and 30 Oct.

Zenanarh gave report on 26 Oct.

Has any of admins ever read what we wrote on RFARB, on the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence page ?

Regarding Jakov Mikalja case, as I see, Giovanni Giove is 15 days overdue (today is 02 Nov), more than 2 weeks. And he was supposed to give explanation on the talkpage promptly, according to the explicit and strict order of the Arbitration Committee. We have rules on Misplaced Pages.

He repeated his behaviour in which he removes all adjectives "Croatian" (replacing it with some amorphous or Frankestein adjectives, despite the scanned original documents, that point exactly to terms Croatian and Croat), and/or when he tries to lessen any connection of Mikalja with Croats. Just compare the history pages between other users and him. His edits weren't the "upgrading edit", that was ordinary revert. Compare the versions. See his previous reverts.

This is not a place to explain why is his contribution full of POV's, original research and misrepresentations, as well as his anti-Croat attitude, I (and others) have given a bunch of explanation on the talkpage of article Jakov Mikalja previously (the same talkpage that Giovanni Giove ignores since for 09 July 2007, that's almost four months, or 116 (one hundred and sixteen) days!).

Honorable admins, Yours task is to act as rules require. Sincerely, Kubura 14:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Giove's pre-RFARB behaviour

Probably you need the confirmation that Giove previously, before the RFARB, did same actions and reverted the articles the very same way.
Here're the proofs (just some of examples), that Giove's post-RFARB actions were reverts, not the upgrading edits.
I gave that info on the RFARB:Dalmatia/Evidence, sections Anti-Croat attitude, [[Giove deletes and/or diminuates the "share" of Croats, Giove deleting "Croat--", Italianizing of Croat names, toponyms.
Here they are again:
9 April 2007, 22:43 . Giove removes "Croatian" and replaces it with "Illyric". Also, Giove pushed his POV-original work in front (removing "Croatian", and placing some amorphous "Serbocroatian").
24 May 2007, 11:42: . Giove's comment: "(Illyric is different from Croatian).
26 May 2007, 09:54 . Removing of adjective "Croat" and replacing with undetermined "Illyric".
There's more, but I hope this'll be enough.
Hope this helps, maybe these were the diffs that admins needed for the confirmation of repeated Gioves revert-warring behaviour.
However, Giove got the block for his behaviour on just one article (Ruđer Bošković), but he did it on few articles, and he wasn't punished for bad behaviour and disobeyance of explicit decions of the Arbitration Committee. Kubura 14:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Giove's recent vandalistic behaviour on the talkpage

On 6 Nov 2007 in 11:05, user Giovanni Giove has deleted my explanations on the talkpage of Jakov Mikalja . He deleted them the very same day I've posted them (my message was from 10:44).
Giove's comment was "deleted insults and personal attacks)".
This is the text that Giovanni Giove deleted "19 days have passed since Giovanni Giove violated the decisions from the Arbitration Committee (Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Proposed_decision). See also Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Remedies and section Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia#Enforcement
- Since then, other users have abstained from editing. Giovanni Giove abused that for his editslaughter.
- Because of repeated ignorant behaviour of user Giovanni Giove (described in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence), I've restored the version before Giove's violation of RFARB decisions. ".
It's a shame that admins allow Giove to pull all other users (including admins) by the nose. Kubura 07:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Here're Giove's reverts and undiscussed and unexplained POV (and original work) actions exposed on the talkpage (and described on the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Dalmatia/Evidence.
Talk:Jakov_Mikalja#Giove.27s_unexplained_reverts.2C_trolling_and_vandalisms_since_RFARB.
To remind you, since his first (undiscussed and unexplained) revert (18 Oct), 20 days have passed, several user reports, no admins reaction yet. Kubura 11:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Kubura

There is a lot of text here. What, specifically and consisely, do you want done at this point in time? – Steel 17:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

What user Giovanni Giove did:
- he disobeyed ARBCOM decisions and violated the limitations given there
- unimproved behaviour
- he made unexplained reverts on more than one article (punishment should be stronger; otherwise, it seems that it doesn't matter of one vandalizes 1 or 12 articles, punishment is still the same????)
- "edit-slaughter" (see text above)
- he wasn't promptly blocked for his behaviour (despite being reported here)
- many of his actions weren't upgrading edits (ad admin Thatcher thought, see above), but the reverts (the "new" text was inserted by Giove previously, before the RFARB - see "Giove's pre-RFARB behaviour").
- this reinserted text is original research/work and POV
- vandalistic actions on the article talkpage, in which he deleted of opponent's explanation of his revert action - despite being reported on the admin's noticeboard, Giove continued to behave as previously
Sincerely, Kubura 09:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• You are not on solid ground here; ignorant is not a word I would use if I was planning on asking for help and wanted to look like the more reasonable party. Giovanni has been blocked for 2 days for recent editing. I have also asked for expanded authority to deal with Dalmatia-related dsiputes on all sides. Thatcher131 02:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Reporting MichaelCPrice for violation of ArbCom restriction

I reported a revert violation by MP today to AN/I along with diffs.

Michael Price has violated an editing restriction imposed by ArbCom for sustained edit-warring Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Ebionites#MichaelCPrice_restricted. MP reverted content on the Tachyon article without discussing it on the talk page as required by ArbCom.

The change was not discussed on the talk page per the ArbCom directive. A note was placed on MPs talkpage by the responding admin, Sam Blacketer. I was informed this report should have been filed here instead. My apologies. Ovadyah 21:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

A consensus was previously established on the tachyon talk page, and not just with one editor. An anon editor (who to date has taken nothing to the talk page) complained in the edit summary about the lack of citations. This was remedied, and in addition the phrasing of the text was expanded. This has found consensual acceptance. --Michael C. Price 22:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

So far, we are seeing a lot of confontation without a hint of contrition. There is also a refusal to acknowledge what is required: to discuss each revert on the talk page as it occurs, not say consensus was reached somewhere on the talk page sometime in the past. Ovadyah 23:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Since the content has been clarified and referenced it was not a mere revert. --Michael C. Price 11:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the content was eventually clarified, well after the revert, and a reference was supplied by another editor. The admin that looked into it concluded you made a revert. Please acknowledge that you understand what is required of you. You are to discuss every revert on the talk page at the time you make it. Ovadyah 16:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No, doubly wrong. I clarified the phrasing as part of the update and added a ref within one minute. Later the anon editor became abusive and it was a clear case of vandalism. Another editor later supplied another reference, but did no further textual clarification. --Michael C. Price 16:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see. I see you are still refusing to acknowledge the restrictions that have been placed upon you. Rather than a block, which would have no lasting effect, I propose to the Arbitration Committee that you be assigned a "parole officer" to mentor you and take punitive actions as necessary when you knowingly violate your restrictions. I believe Dbachmann would be an excellent choice, as he is already familiar with the circumstances of your case. Ovadyah 16:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Administrator response: MichaelCPrice is expected to abide fully by the restrictions placed upon him in the arbitration decision. However, reverting an IP edit that was accompanied with the edit summary "you idiot" really is not the type of thing that I believe the arbitrators were concerned about. Under the circumstances, I believe that reminding MichaelCPrice to abide by the restrictions is sufficient, and this has been done. The "parole officer" suggestion is not necessary; in the unhappy event that future violations occur, they can be reported in a new section on this noticeboard. Newyorkbrad 17:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. Would this include the edit-warring that is happening on Talk:Tachyon unabated, and questioning the mental stability of editors that disagree with his edits on MP's talk page, or is this a matter for AN/I? Ovadyah 17:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there an actual edit-war going on on Talk:Tachyon, or just a discussion (albeit an overly heated discussion) about article content? With regard to "questioning the mental stability," the arbitration decision did not specifically address civility issues, but everyone is reminded to remain civil and avoid personal attacks. Newyorkbrad 17:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the issue in both cases appears to be a lack of civility and personal attacks in response to questions and objections raised by other editors. The context of the discussion seems to be that the revert was not discussed adequately. Strictly speaking, this is not an actual edit-war, but it does contribute to poisoning the editing environment. Ovadyah 17:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In order to reduce ArbCom time wasted by responding to Ovadyah's misleading accusations I suggest that my editing restriction be restricted to the Ebionite article only. In return I promise not to edit the Ebionite article at all for the restriction period. That way we can all concentrate on more constructive work. --Michael C. Price 17:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Only the Arbitration Committee itself can change the scope of the restrictions. The administrators who monitor this board, such as myself, do not have authority to do so. Newyorkbrad 17:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Where exactly should I make my proposal then? At Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee or somewhere else? --Michael C. Price 11:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to such a proposal, unless it is applied in addition to the current sanctions. I expect a number of other editors will be as well. Ovadyah 13:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Why, if their only concern is the state of the Ebionite article? Or is this a case of wikistalking and harassment, aside from the waste of admin/arbcom time?--Michael C. Price 15:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I see you are again putting words in the Arbitration Committee's mouth as well as my own, just as you put words into the mouths of your secondary sources. It has recently been pointed out to me that this conflation / misleading content problem has infected several articles you have touched. By all means, appeal your sentence and let's see what happens. Personally, I became convinced awhile ago that this can only end one way. :0) Ovadyah 16:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Cool it, both of you. MichaelCPrice is limited to one revert per week per page, it applies to all pages, and only ArbCom can modify the remedy. Contact an Arbitrator by email or post your request in the Request for clarification section of WP:RFAR. Thatcher131 23:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Reporting BKWSU Core IT PR Team for violation of ArbCom restriction

Following on from meatpuppet and WP:OWN findings at a recent Suspected Sockpuppet report;

• Suspected meatpuppets acting for the BKWSU Core IT PR Team on the BKWSU Misplaced Pages page again.

Bksimonb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Riveros11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
Appledell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

• Evidence

Looking through the history of the topic on the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University, there seems to be a distinct theme of ownership WP:OWN being exhibited by not just active members of the religious movement but even dedicated organizational IT PR Team members. Over the last few days prior to having the page locked, I attempted to add a number of citations, quotations to citation and make neutral typographic and tagging correction only for them to be identically reverted under the guise of "Vandalism". by the BKWSU team members.

Although I am sure that these are separate individuals, I suggest that this is clear as possible an example of dedicated meatpuppetry. WP:SOCK stated that in such cases, such individuals should be treat the same as sockpuppets.

User:Bksimonb states that he is an official BKWSU IT PR team member . In a previous Arbcom decision, and user page, it was disclosed that User:Riveros11 was also part of the team and confirmed puppeteer . I suspected that single user account User:Appledell is also. Both exhibit a trend of following the leadership of User:Bksimonb. In the arbcom case, it was stated that there was "clear evidence of article ownership".

• User:Bksimonb
• user:Riveros11 , ,
• User:Reneeholle
• user:Appledell
• User:IPSOS

reverts back to Bksimonb version

Both User:Bksimonb , User:Riveros11 and User:IPSOS have filed disproportionate report of vandalism, personal attacks, checkusers, sockpuppetry complaints regarding the BKWSU page, included some while logged out so they do not appear in the contribution history of the named account, apparently to intimdate any user contradiction the organization's position, even those well known not to be socks by other editors.

Even when I have placed extensive documentation and justification of change I see no where else, it is dismissed by IPSOS by a oneliner say it is not "discussion" .

With all independent contributors intimidated off, the discuss and article remains virtual fallow, e.g. 3 edits in two months;

(To avoid any counter-accusation, I recently required to change my user name due to a lost password but have reported this).

I have stated clearly that I know these individuals are separate but that I can substantiate in detail a collusion between the BKWSU IT PR Team (currently Bksimonb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), Riveros11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), Appledell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) over the control of this topic. This is meatpuppetry and it has gone on for too long. Unfortunately, I do not know of where else to report meatpuppets.

I consider that Reneeholle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been brought into this out of goodwill but is aping the main team. It would appear that IPSOS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is very skilled in the use of Misplaced Pages accusation, e.g. aggressive sockpuppet accusations to other known, long term contributors and new editors , . and attacks to manipulation. Perhaps he just enjoys provoking other editors to achieve control by way of WP:3RR. Tend to use uncivil language and insults such as "idiot" and "bullshit" by way of intimidating or deliberate nicknames like Wacko for Wachowski , vandalism accusation in summaries after good edits and wind up summaries .

My own recent edits to page consitently WP:3RR-ed

AWachowski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

--AWachowski 01:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Do the links provided above actually back up what AWachowski is saying? I have also raised a complaint on AP:ANI regarding the constant discrediting of editors based on affiliation by this user and his previous incarnations. Regards Bksimonb 15:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

AWachowski has a habit of accusing people of being socks or meatpuppets if they don't agree with his edits. As I told him on the talk page, if he discussed his edits first before making them and made them one at a time instead of whole-sale changing the article, then he would be (a) following Wiki procedures and (b) be likely to see his edits stay in.

Also, there appears to be a COI as AWachowski is an ex-BK (and a particularly vehement one at that) which colors his emotions strongly when he edits (and causes him to file reports like this when clearly he knows that IPSOS and myself have nothing to do with Bksimonb). COI does not prevent one from editing but he should first discuss changes and then gain consensus on the talk page before making edits. Renee 23:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Admin response Arbcom imposed a rather unusual form of article probation in this case, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Brahma_Kumaris#Article_probation_2. There is no authorization for direct enforcement such as banning certain editors from the article, as is typical of most articles on probation. Rather, editors must appeal directly to Arbcom to consider if further sanctions are required. I suggest you file a Request for Arbitration, or a Request for Clarification on that page, laying out (briefly, with diffs) your request for additional enforcement. Thatcher131 01:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Thatcher131. Thanks for the response. I can draft something and post it here as a proposal. I'd appreciate you look over it before I post it for real since our last attempt to increase authorisation for enforcement was rejected. Also, you probably have a better idea than I do as to what you need arbcom to authorise. If we can establish some enforcement of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and WP:CONSENSUS then that would quickly filter out all the disruptive editing the article has been subjected to and the abuse that editors have been subject to since violation of these polices seems to be their calling card. Would the request have to be based solely on the Principles section of the arbcom case or can it also address other behaviour patterns we have seen since the ruling?

Question: Would this take the form of a Request for Arbitration or a Request for Clarification? Thanks & regards Bksimonb 13:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I would list it as a clarification. Stifle (talk) 18:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Italianization (resolved)

On this article Users GiovanniGiove and Ghepeu are vandalizing the article

They simply delete the entire paragraph . I remind that Giovanni_Giove has a limit afor editing per week and I believe he broke it with this.

Regards! --Anto 22:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read up on Misplaced Pages:Vandalism; removing text disputed by multiple people is not necessarily vandalism. Apparent forum shopping on your part aside for the moment (, , , ), Giovanni Giove is restricted to one revert per article per week and appears to have made that revert during his seven successive edits here (most obviously, removing the "Italianization today" section). Where do you feel he violated his 1RR? – Steel 22:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

As per WP:ARB/Dalmatia: Giovanni Giove is "limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page".
This action that Giove took from 15 Nov, 16:23, got no explanation by him on the talkpage. That's violation of ARBCOM decisions.
Here's the recent history of revert war.:
14 Nov, 23:51 Ghepeu deletes whole section , with comment "blatant propaganda".
15 Nov, 00:42 Giove deletes the line he doesn't want to be seen. .
After a streak of article upgrades by user Aradic-en (no lines removed, only new ones added), Giove appears.
15 Nov, 16:22 Giovanni Giove deletes the references (!!) with the comment "deleted false sources" (BBC, NY Times, l'Unitá). No explanation on the talkpage.
15 Nov, 16:23 Giovanni Giove deletes whole paragraph (!!) with the comment "DELETED: the present article is about "Fascist Italianization"". No explanation on the talkpage, nor discussion with others.
After that, user Aradic-en restored the deleted paragraphs.
15 Nov, 18:56 User Ghepeu has engaged himself into revert warring (so that Giove can avoid 3RR rule or 1 revert/week limitation; still, Giove didn't discussed his actions). Here he deleted whole paragraph with references. Of course, no explanation.
I'm not giving complaints toward the content, this is not a place for that (that's the matter of talkpages, 3rd opinions, mediations).
I'm reporting the trollish behaviour, behaviour that is supposed to be of admins interest (deletions of whole paragraphs and references, ignoring of discussion, violation of ARBCOM decisions, revert war, actions performed to help trolls to avoid violations of wiki-rules and decisions).
Sincerely, Kubura 08:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

What needs an explanation is the shameful behaviour of a group of Croatian user (Kubura,Anto, Direktor, you can easily find the others) who regularly team up to push their rabidly nationalist pro-Croatian POV in all the article which are more or less related to the coasts of the Adriatic Sea. This group of user constantly tries to add blatant nationalist anti-Italian, anti-Venetian, anti-Serbian propaganda to the articles and engages in coordinated actions too ensure that their biased POV prevail, reverting alternatively their edits, producing false references and biased interpretations until the other editors are "defeated". GhePeU 16:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello

I have contacted a few administrators because I was not sure who exactly was in charge for this issue. Acts of Giove might not be breaking the 1RR but they certanly are vandalism. I will try to give more sorces for that. REGARDS! --Anto 09:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It is more and more evidence that you act as a Meatball, toghether ],Anto, DIREKTOR, user:Raguseo, and the others...--Giovanni Giove 16:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not convinced there are unexplained reverts here, but I've protectec Fascist Italianization for a week. Stifle (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• Giovanni Giove did make a couple of edits that would qualify as reverts, and he was not participating in the discussion of the issue he was disputing, so a block is warranted. However, the behavior of Aradic-en (talk · contribs) (Anto) is concerning; it is not vandalism to remove a section that you disagree with. Aradic-en inserted material that is controversial and not entirely supported he references he cited; the correct behavior for all parties is to discuss the issue. Also, Raguseo (talk · contribs) has used sockpuppets to edit war (on another topic), and I am generally concerned with both Raguseo and Aradic-en who, although checkuser says "unlikely" to be sockpuppets, joined at about the same time and only edit this topic area. I will be requesting expanded enforcement authority from ArbCom. Thatcher131 01:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Enforcement of Arbcome needed for JohnSmiths

I believe John Smith's (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has violated the restriction placed on him at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Giovanni33-John Smith's#Giovanni33 restricted. He has previously violated it but I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he did not understand that partial reverts count. He has done it again, and I have let him know, nicely, giving him a chance to self revert. He responded only by assuming bad faith and name calling.

He is restricted to only one revert per article per week. He gamed that by reverting once on Nov 7th, and then Nov.14, a few hours after the one week limit for another editor. I'm ok with that. But then he reverted my edits today. He mixed this is with other changes, which he thinks excuses it.

• 12:08, 7 November 2007
• 19:40, 14 November 2007

• 08:47, 16 November 2007

The revision section in question is his removing my footnote, and this section in particular. He reverted this text found in my version:

"The book received high sales and was placed on bestsellers' lists, also receiving largely positive reviews in the newspapers and the general media. The reaction to the book in academic journals from Sinologists was far more critical, generally viewing the work as fundamentally flawed."

Back to his version:

"In addition to achieving high sales and being placed on bestsellers' lists, Mao: The Unknown Story received largely positive reviews in the newspapers and the general media. The reaction to the book from Sinologists was more critical."

He also removed the footnote, I added. These are clearly undoing another editors work, and he did so more than once within a week. I don't want to report him but he is not being reasonable, just argumentative and combative. He also denies this counts as a revert. I leave it to the wisdom of those who enforce Arbcom decisions to give the proper instruction. Thank you.Giovanni33 11:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I have already explained that my edit on the 14th November was not a reversion at all - it was a clarification. User:Cripipper had made a point on 7th November about a supposed abscence of any public response to criticism of the book. I provided fresh material that updated it to what was correct. If Cripipper had objected and changed it further, another edit by myself would have counted as a revert. But he agreed with it. Revert parole is designed to stop edit warring, not working out problems between users. Giovanni is implying that if I had made a revert and then wanted to make the change that I did on the 14th, I would have had to wait a whole week before putting it in even though the other user I had been discussing it with accepted the point. If you uphold Giovanni's complaint then that would discourage positive, consentual editing by people under a revert parole. As I have said before more than once, if we hold to Giovanni's logic then every edit on wikipedia is a revert because it undoes the actions of other editors. That is complete nonsense, so this report does not hold any water.

I'd ask that you take Giovanni in hand and stop him from making warnings like this. I see them as a means of intimidating and controlling the actions of other users. I don't even think my edit today was a revert, as I was merely updating the section to conform with that on the main article. How is that a revert? Giovanni tries to bully people to get his way. Clearly that is very much against the spirit of Misplaced Pages and a poor way to interact with other users. John Smith's 11:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a violation by John Smith's here. But both Giovanni and John Smith's have basically kept up with their edit warring within the limits of their 1RR/article/week restrictions - modifying each other's edits without concensus with each other first, making sure that any reverts are done outside 1RR/week, etc, etc. To the best of my knowledge, most of this is happening at Mao: The Unknown Story‎ and Jung Chang, the same articles that got them on their current restrictions in the first place. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing that there has been no violation. As for "edit-warring" between the two of us, I think what's worse is Giovanni's harrassment in making a report like this. He's trying to stop me from editing articles he's interested in, essentially, by making threats of reports like this. -- John Smith's (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually this is my first edit here, and I see John Smith's edit right after mine as a clear reversion as it reverts to his previous version, in part. My understanding is that partial reversions count. Otherwise, all one has to do is to add several other changes (as he does) within a revert, for it not to count? That makes no sense. JohnSmiths knows very well what he is doing. The previous edits also count for the same reason. If its true that the other editor agreed, then JohnSmith should have let the other editor make the change--not himself. If he makes it himself--it counts. I also noticed he waited exactly one week (nov. 14) for him to make the edit, suggesting that he knew it would count as a revert. The 3RR page clearly explains that "undoing the edits of another editor"---even if just partial---count as a revert.-- Giovanni33 (talk) 20:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I waited a week because I didn't have the time and also I knew you probably would try to hold it against me as a revert. If you weren't around twisting the rules I might have made it much earlier. You've also clearly ignored the point I made that I was updating incorrect information with some facts. I'll say it again - if Cripipper has objected or some such I wouldn't have made the change. As it was, he agreed with it.

If you want to wikilawyer that much, then any edit to existing content is a reversion. Clearly that is not the case - the guidelines are there to prevent edit-wars, not stop people making consensus changes! The more you persist with this obviously illogical line of reasoning it can only support my assertion that you are making a bad-faith report to get me in trouble - throwing lots of mud at the wall in the hope some it will stick. -- John Smith's (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni - A reversion is when an edit undoes a previous edit. Which means if you added A, it would count as a reversion whether or not John Smith's removed it, changed it to B, or C or anything else, as long as his edit stands to take out A, which you added. I don't see how the second and third link you provided here are undoing the same thing. And the first edit you linked up here falls outside the 1RR/week/article restriction. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, and that is what I think JohnSmith did. On Nov. 7th we have this "undoing" of a previous edit in the change from: "Academic opinion on the book was divided, with historians generally giving a negative response…" To his version,: “The book received high sales and was placed on bestsellers' lists, also receiving largely positive reviews in the newspapers and the general media....”

One week later, on Nov. 14th, he undid this edit by removing the text, and inserted something else--but in a different section.

"They have as of yet to publicly respond to specific criticisms of the book, such as examples of them deliberately misreading sources, using them selectively, or out of context (see main article)."

To me that counts as undoing another's edit. If JohnSmiths said that the other party agreed to remove it, then he should have let the other party remove it. I don't see that the other party agreed. JohnSmiths just assumes so because he did not edit war over it with him. But it still counts as "undoing" the other guys edit, the same way he reverted the editor a week earlier.

Now, John Smith claims even his latest reversion of my edits on Nov.16 do not count as even a revert?! Again, I show that he did exactly this by reverting this text found in my version "

"The book received high sales and was placed on bestsellers' lists, also receiving largely positive reviews in the newspapers and the general media. The reaction to the book in academic journals from Sinologists was far more critical, generally viewing the work as fundamentally flawed."

Back to his version :

"In addition to achieving high sales and being placed on bestsellers' lists, Mao: The Unknown Story received largely positive reviews in the newspapers and the general media. The reaction to the book from Sinologists was more critical."

Would you agree that, at least, that counts as a reversion? JohnSmiths continues to deny it, which bothers me. Btw, thank you for restoring the footnote and other information that JohnSmiths deleted in his reversion of my edit . As you noted, he failed to discuss this, which is also a violation of the terms of his revert parole.Giovanni33 (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, give it up - you're clutching at straws now. I gave a reason for my large edit, which was to stay in conformity with the book's article but to keep things brief. Originally you tried to claim I had made two reverts. Now you're trying to claim I didn't discuss the latter so that's a violation. If you want to state I didn't discuss it "enough" then you're guilty of the same thing - my posts on the talk page following edits were about as long as yours.

To me that counts as undoing another's edit. If JohnSmiths said that the other party agreed to remove it, then he should have let the other party remove it. I don't see that the other party agreed. I can't make other people edit, and I certainly didn't want to rub his face in it by asking him. The fact he conceded the point was enough when he said since you have correctly unearthed a reply (of sorts) from the LRB to qualify the statement further with regard to journals would, I admit, involve an unnecessary degree of specificity. The fact I made the edit and he didn't raise even an iota of complaint, though he did take the time to write back afterwards, goes to show he agreed it was a fair replacement.

What I find troubling is that to you rules appear to be a means of neutralising people you disagree with. You keep ignoring the simple point that according to your logic any edit that changes existing text is a revert. Clearly the regs don't want that to be the case, so why do you persist with this non-logic? John Smith's (talk) 23:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, here's what I see so far. These edits at 23:11, November 6, 2007 appears to be a revert. His edit at 12:08, November 7, 2007 does not seem to be a revert - was it? I can't tell if his edit at edit at 19:40, November 14, 2007, the important one here, was a revert. If it was, what content did it revert? And his edit at 08:47, November 16, 2007 is a revert of Giovanni's earlier edit. So, Nov 6 was a revert, Nov 7 doesn't seem to have been, I'm unsure about Nov 14, and Nov 16 was a revert. Giovanni or someone else, can you show how the Nov 7 and 14 edits were reverts? Also, as JohnSmith's noted, the purpose of the remedy is to limit edit warring, so if Cripipper agrees with his edits he's not really edit-warring. Can I have a diff of Cripipper assenting to your version, JohnSmith's? Picaroon (t) 23:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Picaroon for trying to make sense of this. I agree if Cripipper stated agreement and asked JohnSmiths to make the change, as per agreement, then I don't have a problem with that. I mainly came here because John Smiths was denying he made any reversions, in particular, his reversion of my edits on Nov. 16th, which he still denies counts as a revert. I think bringing it here so it can be officially stated that he is wrong about this, is important. So, thank you for clarifying that. My interpretation of the other important edit in question was that he deleted the addition by the other editor, but if the other editor agrees, I have no problem with it. However, I think JohnSmiths would do well in the future to ask the other editor to make the change himself, if he agrees. Then there would be no question. John Smith should really err on the side of caution, instead of walking the tight rope, and grey areas, including denying that obvious reverts are not really reverts. And, on top of that making bad faith assumptions about my pointing this out to him.Giovanni33 (talk) 00:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Benton, Gregor (2006-01). "The Portrayal of Opportunism, Betrayal, and Manipulation in Mao's Rise to Power". The China Journal (55): 96, 109. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
2. Creek, Timothy (2006-01). "The New Number One Counter-Revolutionary Inside the Party: Academic Biography as Mass Criticism". The China Journal (55): 110, 118. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1= and |coauthors= (help)