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Archive 1 (pre-mediation discussion)

Thanks to the parties for discussing things while a mediator was being assigned to this case, albeit without much action in the last 48 hours. I am happy to report that one member of the Committee is about to pick this up. For his benefit and at his request, I have archived the pre-mediation discussion, so that consensus-building can start afresh and with the guidance of the mediator. Thanks for your patience and I apologise for the delay. Cheers, Daniel 23:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Eugenics in Showa Japan

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Filed: 13:55, November 1 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Azukimonaka (talk · contribs)
• Flying tiger (talk · contribs)
• ZayZayEM (talk · contribs)

Articles involved

• Eugenics in Showa Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Japanese expansionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• a few other articles involving Japanese activities, events and politics during WWII eg Manchukuo
• Article Comfort women was also involved in the same way as a source was disputed ]
• War edit has been extended to Eugenics since yesterday (--Flying tiger 13:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC))

Other steps in dispute resolution that have been attempted

• Third party neutral native Japanese speaker advice on source content
• Request for comment.
• Talkpage
• user:ZayZayEM's request for protection of 21th October ]

Issues to be mediated

The party filing this request uses this section to list the issues for mediation. Other parties can list additional issues in the section below.

• Inclusion of references, sources and links added by other users
• Use of encyclopedic level of English

Mediator

Hi, I'm Ryan, I'm an administrator here. Once again, apologies for the delay here but I hope we can get started as soon as possible. Firstly, could you all clarify that you're happy with me mediating the dispute? Ryan Postlethwaite 23:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm happy as long as additional issues (WP:V , See also content, Topic clarification ) are looked into too.--ZayZayEM (talk) 12:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

  I will remove myself from this discussion if this becomes an identical clone to the previous archive. The previous discussion has been archived, not dismissed. I do not think we need to go over this again. I will also not engage in any non-mediator directed polls.--ZayZayEM (talk) 10:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

  • If you propose it, I answer your proposal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azukimonaka (talk • contribs) 10:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Hi, welcome; I'm sure you're competent and have goodwill but I hope you have also some knowledge of Japanese history as many technical issues are disputed. Most of all, I hope, if it is not already done, you will take time to read all the text related to the background of the conflict, in particular the links in the "other steps" and "articles involved" sections. We have waited for three weeks, we can wait one more to give you time to do so.--Flying tiger (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Hi, I've already given it a once over, but I plan to look deeper into the dispute over the weekend, so I'm sure by Sunday/Monday we'll be ready to start properly. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• Completion has approached this discussion by the vote. I regret that the current discussion became invalid. --Azukimonaka (talk) 09:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi all, there seems to be a problem here with people going off on different tagents, with very little structure to this mediation, making the page an extension of the article talk page. I would appreciate it if everyone could follow my lead with this or the dispute isn't going to get solved. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statements

Please make an opening statement on the dispute stating the main issues with the article and the major points that you would like to see mediated. It would be good if you could limit this to 250 words. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by Flying tiger

Hi,

I personally object to user:Azukimonaka's deletion of three points I added to the article .

• 1)The first point is a section on the origins of eugenism in Japan, which was based on Jennifer Robertson's article]. Following his habit, user:Azukimonaka deleted ALL the section, arguing that I "extract only a convenient place from the source to your insistence". ]

• 2) The second one, is a simple and clear reference to Herbert Bix's Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan: «One of the last eugenic measure of the Shōwa regime was taken by the Higashikuni government. On 19 August, 1945, the Home Ministry ordered local government offices to establish a prostitution service for allied soldiers to preserve the "purity" of the "Japanese race". The official declaration stated that : «Through the sacrifice of thousands of "Okichis" of the Shōwa era, we shall construct a dike to hold back the mad frenzy of the occupation troops and cultivate and preserve the purity of our race long into the future...» Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the making of modern Japan, 2001, p. 538, citing Kinkabara Samon and Takemae Eiji, Showashi : kokumin non naka no haran to gekido no hanseiki-zohoban, 1989, p.244 ». User:Azukimonaka, although he did not read the book, accuse me of "falsifying the source" ].
• 3) The third point is the section about the deletion of the Leprosy Laws]. I argue that those law should be included because some japanese scientists believed the body constitution vulnerable to the disease was inheritable and thius, proceded to sterilization as soon as 1915. ]

Finally, I object to Azukimonaka's personal attacks. For two months, this user is launching against me unjustified personal attacks ], ], attributing to me everything he doesn't like in the history of the articles. As you see, User:ZayZayEM and User:Saintjust even took my defense on this. Even, when I agree to his requests, this user keeps deleting... ] --Flying tiger (talk) 14:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by ZayZayEM

Please also see my original "additional issues" listed here. (1-6)

I feel the best way for this article to proceed in a neutral manner is to remove the ambigious "Showa" period limitation. As an encyclopedia of all knowledge, Misplaced Pages should aim to have comprehensive coverage of eugenic technology, practices and social issues in Japan (and the world).

Secondly it needs some English language sources.

User:Azukimonaka has occasionally brought up some interesting points, but for the most part has been a disruptive and insulting editor. He has shown an inability to express himself with even a basic command of the English language. This has led to practically illegible text being added to articles, and discussions that lead nowhere fast.

User Azukimonaka has an axe to grind about issues of Japanese Imperialism and resorts to edit warring, flaming, insults and claims of conspiracies and/or falsification of sources in an attempt to get his way.

This user has a inability to understand core concepts of wikipedia, such as verifibility not truth and wikipedia is not a soapbox.

However, User:Flying Tiger might take note of the Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox rule too. This article appears to focus overtly on military ties to eugenic movements, and attempts to directly relate the issue to war-efforts. User:Azukimonaka has clearly demonstrated that the Imperial Army was predominantly opposed to or uninvolved in eugenics.

Things that need mediated:

• Retitling of article
• Origins of Eugenics in Japan (Germany?)
• Motivations of Eugenics in Japan (military? expansionism? political? racial? public health?)
• Whether Leprosy Laws can be considered eugenic.
• Whether Japanese sex-bars for US military during occupation were motivated (in part?) by eugenics.
• Contrast/similarities with Nazi Eugenics
• Contrast/similarities with Eugenics in the U.S.

--ZayZayEM (talk) 05:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Opening statement by Azukimonaka

• It apologizes for having made you revolted with my poor English. However, the knowledge of a Japanese history of Flying-Tyger was poor as well as my English knowledge. (Flying-Tyger doesn't know the history of Japan in detail because he cannot understand Japanese. )
• I thought that this article was an article on "Human-right violation based on eugenics by the Ministry of Health and Welfare". However, it was only a gossip and an ear duster in World War II that was written in this article. If the fact of a Japanese history is enumerated, I do not have dissatisfaction.
• Are these topics of Eugenics though Flying-Tyger added "Korean patients were also sujected to hard labor" and "Marriages between Koreans and Japanese were discouraged"?
• Finally, I think that I should make "Eugenics in Showa Japan" and Eugenics integrated. --Azukimonaka (talk) 06:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)