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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Jan Matejko Bilder

Hi,

ich weiß es nicht, ob du mein posting gerne überliest oder was? ich brauche zu dem Thema eine Antwort. Du bist doch der Chef hier, oder etwa nicht? Ist es in Ordnung, dass die Nutzung von Bildern des Malers Jan Matejko in der deutschen Misplaced Pages verboten ist (siehe die Reverts), ist dieses Vorgehen Misplaced Pages konform? Ich brauche hierzu eine Stellungnahme!--Interrex (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Bekomme ich noch eine Antwort oder kann ich es vergessen? :-( --Interrex 17:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, ich brauche hier eine Stellungnahme, warum die Verwendung von Jan Matejko Bildern in der deutschen Misplaced Pages verboten ist (why is the use of jan matejko pictures in the german wikipedia prohibited (?), see the reverts). Ich wurde, da ich die Bilder verteidigt habe, sogar für einen Tag gesperrt, nur aufgrund von Bildern, die in den Commons frei und legal zugänglich sind. Das was auf der deutschen Misplaced Pages in Bezug auf Matejko abläuft ist Admin-Willkür (Admin-arbitrariness) in ihrer Reinform.--Interrex (talk) 10:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

ich bin ein user in der deutschen wikipedia version. ich möchte dich in kenntnis setzen, dass es seit dieser woche in der deutschen wikipedia auf basis der ] verboten ist Jan Matejko Bilder zu nutzen. Alle Jan Matejko Bilder wurden aus der deutschen Misplaced Pages entfernt (!), siehe z. B. hier ] oder auch hier ] Ist das ok? Warum ist die Nutzung von Jan Matjeko Bildern in der englischen, französischen, polnischen Misplaced Pages erlaubt, aber in der deutschen plötzlich verboten? Ich hatte hier ] versucht einen Ausgelich zu finden, komme aber mit meiner Argumentation bedingt durch die Solidarisierung der Admins untereinander nicht mehr durch, hoffe dass du ein Machtwort sprechen kannst--Interrex (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

I don't know whether you like to ignore my postings or what's the matter? I need an answer about the subject. You are the boss around here, aren't you? Is it ok, that the use of images of the painter Jan Matejko is forbidden on German Misplaced Pages (see reverts), is this course of action conform to Misplaced Pages? I need a statement about this!--Interrex (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Will I still get an answer or may I forget about it? :-( --Interrex 17:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, I need a statement right now, why the use of pictures of Jan Matejko is forbidden in German Misplaced Pages (why is the use of jan matejko pictures in the german wikipedia prohibited (?), see the reverts). Because I did defend the pictures, I even became banned for one day, only because of pictures, which are accessible free and legally at Commons. What happens on German Misplaced Pages with regard to Matejko is Admin-arbitrariness in it's clearest form. --Interrex (talk) 10:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I am a user of German Misplaced Pages. I want to inform you, that, since this week, on base of ] it is forbidden, to use the pictures of Jan Matejko on German Misplaced Pages. All pictures from Jan Matejko were removed(!), for example, look here ] or here ]. Is this ok? Why is the use of pictures from Jan Matjeko permitted on English, French and Polish Misplaced Pages, but suddenly forbidden on German Misplaced Pages. Here ] I tried to find a compromise, but, because of the solidarity among the admins, my arguments don't come through, hope that you can put your foot down--Interrex (talk) 17:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Translated by --Thw1309 (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC) (Do you know the feeling to be so "proud" about your fellow citizens)

Veropedia and Misplaced Pages

Dear Jimbo,

I don't know where else to post to get a relatively "official" position on the relationship between Veropedia and Misplaced Pages. I'd like to start with the "facts", if you will:

Veropedia is described as a "for-profit" encyclopedia web site in its Misplaced Pages article.
The owner of Veropedia appears to be sponsoring or co-sponsoring a contest to improve wikipedia articles, with cash prizes. I removed a sentence from that contest page that implied to me that the purpose of the contest was essentially to move improved articles over to Veropedia.
The owner of Veropedia is a former employee of the Wikimedia Foundation.
Veropedia user boxes and templates appear on many user pages. Unlike other "branded" userboxes, the users who place them on their pages seem in a fundamentally different position—they are affiliated with the company; or, if they are not, they appear to be affiliated because of the unclear position of Veropedia with respect to Misplaced Pages.
One user has a link in his or her signature that brings the reader to a promotion of Veropedia: See User:Moreschi/If. The page was nominated for deletion, and deleted by the closer in spite of the many Keep votes because the closer felt it to be simple advertising. (Was it simple advertising?—Well, that link is how I found out about Veropedia.) It has since been the subject of a Deletion Review and has been reinstated.
In general, plenty of linking and discussion about Veropedia has taken place over the last month on Misplaced Pages.

In trying to understand how this is an appropriate use of Misplaced Pages, I have so far posted twice on User:Danny's talk page, and I have received a few responses from related parties, which stress that Veropedia will give back to Misplaced Pages, and that the two organizations have compatible goals. Nobody has yet addressed my question as to the ethicality of this relationship: I am concerned that this for-profit organization is attempting to embed itself here as a casual, informal extension of Misplaced Pages; that it will gain through the obviously valuable halo effect that it will receive from Misplaced Pages links and activities; and that this, in the view of society's consensus views on profit/non-profit business ethics is, indeed, unethical. Compare any other GFDL-compliant "mirror": none of them receive this benefit. Thus, to be clear, the re-use of open content is not the issue at all; the issue is that Misplaced Pages appears to be the ground for the sowing of a for-profit organization's seeds. What other organization has ever been permitted this (spam attempts notwithstanding)?

Your talk page is a busy place, and I wish to state that I am not a trollish editor flying by to create a fuss. I have contributed to the wiki positively for some time and have about 9000 edits. I am not writing because I am "anti-mirror" or have had some bothersome realization about GFDL licensing—such ideas simply distort the key issue I'm raising. Further, I have had no prior dealings with Veropedia or its owner, and have no reason to spend my time examining this issue other than its ethical bearing on whether I can in good conscience continue to contribute here.

Thus, I am here to ask, in earnest, if the Foundation considers this an issue worth examining, or has it already accepted this promotional activity? Of course, Veropedia's activities here are nascent. If the current amount of Veropedia cross-pollination is OK, how much Veropedia promotion would have to be in place, scattered about Misplaced Pages, before it became a concern? Has Wikimedia considered that the organization appears to be affiliated with Veropedia, or "not at arm's length", because of Veropedia's similarities, because of its presence on Misplaced Pages, and because its owner is a former Foundation employee? I hope you would agree that now is the time to clearly state—for the benefit of Misplaced Pages's volunteers and for proactivity in public relations—what is the official position on for-profit website promotion on Misplaced Pages. If this promotional activity is permitted, it's good to know. I have an Amazon.com affiliate account that I may start linking to on-site—it too will benefit Misplaced Pages, because I plan to send 40% of the proceeds to the Foundation, and I'll sponsor some contests too.

My apologies if this issue has been formally discussed elsewhere; I haven't seen anything. Thank you for your time. –Outriggr § 22:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You might want to consider going to #veropedia on IRC where it can be explained to you by people familiar with the way Veropedia works, or wait until you contact Danny before you make up your mind on Veropedia. ⇒SWATJester 01:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a fair question. KnightLago 14:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

See also

Wikia

E kala mai. ;-) --Ali'i 14:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I see where the project stands on this. Thanks. –Outriggr § 00:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clearer, for posterity (who else is listening?), my above one-sentence post should have been more direct. Here's the new version:

I regret that no one will provide a thoughtful response on this topic. I'd like to be shown wrong here. One could say, for example, "Thank you for writing Outriggr. I understand your concern, but I don't see this as an ethical issue or presenting a conflict of interest for Misplaced Pages because... ". I might have stayed with the project had anyone, not just Jimbo, ever approached me in that manner. If I'm wrong, tell me why; if I'm way off base, the reply should be easy. But all I've received so far are bromides and silence, bringing to mind that old saying "the silence is deafening". I am leaving Misplaced Pages, a culmination of factors: partly because of my original concern, partly because nobody will actually present a counter-argument to it , and certainly in protest of the recent issues surrounding sockpuppet hunts and non-transparent activities. Apparently we regular Misplaced Pages editors are to pretend that these issues have no bearing on us—but they do. The most productive editors are often the ones who, quietly, go away. There are ways to stop this cycle. Regretfully, –Outriggr § 01:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

BLP Question

HI Jimbo,

Do you have any thoughts on an issue like this (undue weight in a BLP) as a matter of principle? :

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Frank_LaGrotta

Thanks, --Jkp212 04:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a tough case. The version that I looked at quickly just now was certainly problematic, in that it cited only the negative accusation against this fellow, without mentioning his response. Until it all shakes out in court, at a bare minimum we need to withhold judgment. Surely one thing we might all learn from the Duke Lacrosse team case is that sometimes there are political prosecutions that don't pan out...

But additionally, I would join those who question the undue weight when this matter is overemphasized in the biography. The problem we have here is that the fellow in question is not particularly famous otherwise, and so there may be very little information about him in general. So what we have here could be viewed as a guy who is only notable for one incident, but that one incident does not give the reader a proper non-tabloid overview of his life.

My view here, and those who are following the case more carefully could easily persuade me otherwise, because I may not have all the facts needed to assess this particular case, is that the current removal of the negative information from the biography is a bit overstrong, but acceptable as a temporary measure. If it is reincorporated, it needs to be firmly balanced with a fair presentation of his own side of the story.

I think the most important thing for people to realize in cases like this (and it looks like there has been general calm and reasoned discussion here, which makes me very happy) is that there is plenty of time. It's ok for Misplaced Pages to be incomplete for a while. It may take time for editors to gather more information and be able to write a proper biography, and in the meantime, there is no need to rush to judgment.--Jimbo Wales 06:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. I just wonder if there should be more direct wording on BLP policy about undue weight (that goes beyond "cover the event, not the person"), because one incident does not make a man, and therefore undue weight (where one negative incident sticks out) becomes particularly problematic with living subjects who have had some sort of negative incident throughout the course of their lifetime. I think it's ok to sometimes mention the incident, but not if it's done in such a way that it's not balanced out by a truly balanced article. I also believe the onus of having a truly balanced article should be given to the individual who wants to include the negative info. Something like, "do not add negative incidents into BLP's unless the article is thorough enough that the negative incident isn't given undue weight." --Jkp212 15:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly the solution you proposed, but see:

Does this help? --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Just mentioning that the solution I had proposed via talk page discussion has been reverted in the mean while: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AVerifiability&diff=176384895&oldid=176357955 --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Objectivism

hi there- I read that you were strongly influenced by Objectivism in your youth. Could you tell me what you think of objectivism today? What do you think of "the rabid atheism" of Ayn Rand? What do you think of the current article on Objectivism?--Keerllston 12:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Still strongly influenced. I haven't read our current article, but you have awakened my curiosity and perhaps I will find the time soon...--Jimbo Wales 17:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It would be interesting to learn something about the specific nature of that influence. BCST2001 (talk) 23:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Interested?

I would appreciate it greatly if you did so, perhaps writing an "official review" on that article and on the article on what I believe is the main work of objectivism - Atlas Shrugged.
If you are truly interested I'm sure wikipedians would like your input and would like to know what you consider to be quality.
--Keerllston 00:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Our IRC conversation today: no references to Hitler.

Hi, Jimbo. I took a look at the bit on Giano's page that you thought was Giano calling Durova Hitler. It really is nothing like that. (I knew it couldn't be. It's a ludicrous suggestion, to anybody who knows Giano.) I hope whoever told you that that little lot had to do with Hitler was in good faith... If it was Durova herself, I don't doubt that she was, I don't figure her for a fan of British sitcoms. And maybe it's only in Europe that these sitcoms are famous and beloved.

Anyway, that dialogue is a mix of references to 'Allo 'Allo!, Dad's Army, Blackadder, and (the immortal) Fawlty Towers with John Cleese. You must have some fans of these series among your friends. Please show the dialogue to such a person. To somebody you trust. Show them the thread "About Durova's evidence" and to the end of the page here. Please. Bishonen | talk 22:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC).

OK, I wasn't in on any IRC chat obviously, but this has GOT TO STOP!!! That exact same conversation has been misrepresented AT LEAST 3 TIMES since its posting - Durova has accused me & Giano of being bigots, Fred Bauder included it as "evidence" of Giano's incivility, and now you are (apparently) misinterpreting it as some sort of NAZI reference. I have corrected Durova on her talk page (she insulted me and archived without apology) ] and on my own (see Colditz Salad Capers ]), Fred Bauder in this thread], and now you here. This is somewhere between hilarious and pathetic, and if this sort of BS is continuing on IRC where I can't see it, that's pretty damn serious. I can understand that not everyone knows about Fawlty Towers, but this is an online encyclopedia - can't people do a quick search before leaping to insane conclusions?

To quote John Cleese, you people have absolutely no sense of humour! Please do us all a favour and go watch the episode here]. You can laugh at it and yourself at the same time. I am. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 23:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

ps the above was intended to address only Jimbo Wales, and not Bishonen, who has only my appreciation. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 00:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Durova/Evidence#Evidence presented by Newyorkbrad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, Bishonen, I intended that to be a private conversation where you help me to understand, not an accusation I wanted to make public. I have reviewed the links in question and I agree with your analysis. Snickersnee, I do have a sense of humor, man. :) I just needed help reviewing the diffs. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm just grateful that, in my instance, you asked the right person, and took time to look at the diffs. Other times this hasn't been the case, with much ensuing drama and tragedy. I don't know you or Bishonen, but I consider what she did a great service. Why did this ever need to be private? You could have just, say, asked either me or Giano, neither of us is all that shy. It's unnerving to have to keep stamping out the same bizarre interpretations over and over. But I am glad you have a sense of humour, because it would be sad to think no one else got how funny this is. Thanks for setting the record straight, I'm sure I'll probably have to quote you on it. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 04:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As I am reading this I have in front of me a copy of THE Complete FAWLTY TOWERS by John Cleese and Connie Booth (ISBN 0-413-18390-4), which are the unexpurgated scripts of said sit-com... Anybody want to mention a problem quote, and I'll confirm and give you the page number. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

...said the spider to the fly. I'm not falling for that again. But it is a small comfort to know that my inevitable block-log epitaph will be scrupulously footnoted. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 13:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh lol, lol, lol, I hope you have a sense of humour Jimbo, cos' just look who is referred to as the Fuhrer here - don't ban him, he does not mean any harm, it just amused me to see what can slip through the net. Giano (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Your quote in The Register

"'I believe that Jimbo's credibility has been greatly damaged because of his open support for these people,' says Charles Ainsworth."

Open support for which people?

--Jimbo Wales 14:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The people involved in those secret email lists. In addition to your comments in the ANI thread and on Giano's talk page in which you appeared to criticize Giano much more harshly than Durova, there are also these comments on the Wikien board: , , that show your support. Do you want some names? SlimVirgin organized and administered the CyberStalking list, and Moreschi and Krimpet have pointed out that she was active in discussions on that list in spite of her claims that she wasn't. JzG has stated that he was involved in that list and also organized and administered the "investigations" list. For other names, all you need to do is look at discussions, threads, RfCs, and RfAs where SlimVirgin, Durova, Jayjg, and/or JzG have gotten involved and suddenly 10 to 20 other editors, mostly admins, have suddenly appeared within a few hours, but often within minutes, of each other to support whatever cause or issue that any of those four have taken a stand on. Cla68 (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would any of that damage my reputation? I have no idea where or when Slim Virgin claimed not to be active in discussions on that list, can you prove this astounding charge? Slim Virgin was by any reasonable account one of the primary participants in the list, and no wonder, since she has been the victim of really astounding stalking up to and including published nonsense that she is a spy!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, please check what was said. I said I was never an active participant in the investigations list, which was created by others to move discussions about sockpuppetry away from the cyberstalking list. SlimVirgin 02:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Here you go . SlimVirgin states that she posted "once" to that list, and Moreschi then points out that she is straight-up lying. SlimVirgin then amends her statement saying that she may have participated in a "technical" discussion and that this was the "extent" of her involvement. Krimpet points out that this is also a lie .

I'll assert plainly here that SlimVirgin has an established record of having problems with the truth and others know this. Doc Glasgow just pointed out another incident of lying by her in a chat room discussion you recently participated in. This is why it damages your reputation to support "these people". As obvious as these issues are, I wonder how you couldn't be aware of them. Cla68 (talk) 02:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla68, this is really important, so I am bolding it. Do you acknowledge the confusion here? SlimVirgin did not lie at all here as far as I can see, and you owe her an apology on this point. She talked about the wpinvestigations mailing list, which she did not at all or only barely participated in, not about the cyberstalking list, where she was and is a very active participant. Please acknowledge your mistake.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right, she was talking about the investigations list, so I apologize to SlimVirgin for stating that she was talking about the Cyberstalking list. But, Moreschi did catch her in a lie about the extent of her involvement in the investigations list and Krimpet stated that SlimVirgin hasn't been truthful about what really went on on the Cyberstalking list, which that link to Allison's page confirms. Someone has pointed out to me that there have probably been other victims of harrassment on Misplaced Pages that didn't know about that list that would have been interested in participating but couldn't, because it wasn't advertised anywhere. If the list was used for victims of harrassment, it seems that it was only open to a select few of them. And it also appears that it was used for other purposes, such as Durova's sleuthing seminars and other vitriol against good faith editors. Cla68 (talk) 03:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin would most likely agree with Alison's summary. There is no question that the list has been noisy and at times a place for people to vent steam. That's very far from the characterization you have been making of a secret list for the purpose of cabalism or whatever. Durova posted only that one message there of the "cybersleuthing seminar type" and I believe it got no response at all. It's a mailing list. You say that Moreschi "did catch her in a lie"... that is a very strong statement, can you point me to the proof of it?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Remember the line from Durova's email, "They don't know that this list exists"? Krimpet's statement supports that the list was used for much more than talking about harrassment. Now, the second link I provided above shows that SlimVirgin had to amend her first statement from "one post" to "eight times" to the investigations list. Perhaps not a big lie, but a lie. Anyway, are you asking for more evidence that she has ever lied? Cla68 (talk) 04:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You may want to review WP:NPA. Why do you assume that "one post" versus "eight times" constitutes a lie, rather than an error. I was not and am not a member of the investigations list, but I can easily imagine it being quite easy to misremember the exact participation on a list. I am happy to let SlimVirgin answer for herself, but on the other hand, I can hardly blame her if she just wants to ignore you... the assumption of bad faith and unwillingness to engage her in a sincere dialog in an attempt to understand strikes me as something you might want to drop. Remember, assumption of bad faith is exactly what got Durova going down the wrong path. Don't follow.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean this sarcastically, but did I answer your original question? Cla68 (talk) 03:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really, no. It seems that you are continuing to assume bad faith in a completely unfair way. Do you have any additional factual questions? It might help you to understand how far off track you have gotten here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, your attack on SV is a clear violation of WP:NPA. Please stop attacking your fellow editors, or you will lose the ability to edit on this site. Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 03:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, it just isn't reasonable to jump straight to the conclusion that a person is lying. These are the facts, and there's no point in having a discussion unless it's based on facts:

I am a regular participant in the cyberstalking list. I was subscribed to the investigations list on or around November 10 without being asked whether I wanted to be on it (and I unsubscribed on or around November 26). My memory when I wrote to wikiEN-l was that I'd posted to the investigations list once or thereabouts. Then I looked through my e-mail archives and found eight posts I'd forgotten about, where I'd contributed to a thread about headers in e-mails. So I posted an immediate correction to wikiEN-l. Between my first and second post, Moreschi had already implied that I was lying. I didn't see his post at the time because I wasn't subscribed to wikiEN-l, and indeed my own posts were taking some time to arrive because I was having to ask David Gerard to forward them for me. But really, whether it's one post or eight, the point is that I was subscribed for only around 16 days, and I participated every little during that time. In future, please assume bad memory or confusion or misunderstanding when you see inconsistencies, at least to begin with, instead of immediately assuming that a person is lying. As for your other claim, I do not have "an established record of having problems with the truth": that really is a serious and unjustified slur. Please tell me what Doc Glasgow is supposed to have said so I can respond to it; otherwise, it's left hanging on this page as an attack I can't defend myself against. SlimVirgin 06:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This one really, really bothered me, especially the drama comment. 75.65.91.142 (talk) 23:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The very idea that there were "secret email lists" is absurd. The rest of what follows from that assumption is mistaken.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Why were the lists invitation-only then? I would be interested in knowing about any actual stalking or harrassment going on, because some of the articles I edit are probably embarrassing to some very powerful people and institutions. But I wasn't aware of that forum because it was kept well-hidden, and since I became aware of it a week ago I requested admission and haven't heard anything back. User:Alison, an admin respected enough to be one of the few to recently be entrusted with Checkuser privileges, describes what really went on on that list here , and it exactly describes how that list was characterized in the Register article.

Now, you say the rest is mistaken, but, I could easily find several examples to support my assertion, because I observed them firsthand. Do you want to see them? Cla68 (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Alison's comments do not match what The Register said very much at all. I am happy to explain to you the key differences if you are interested. I would love to have examples to support your assertion, but in the interests of minimizing on-wiki drama, please send them to me in email so I can review it privately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the Register I was referring to, "a rogue editor revealed that the site's top administrators are using a secret insider mailing list to crackdown on perceived threats to their power." Durova's email was actually the evidence that this was occurring on that list (remember she also said, "they don't know that this list exists"), Allison's post confirms that the list was being used to complain about other editors. Now, do you really need more evidence than that? Cla68 (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

First, calling Giano, a widely respected if often difficult editor, a "rogue editor" is nonsense. Durova's email is not evidence for the list being secret, nor evidence for the list being used for a "crackdown on perceived threats to power". Both of those things are just astoundingly false. Durova's email is evidence that Durova wrote something up quite out of character for her and the list, and sent it. Nothing more, nothing else. Of course the list was being used to talk about problem editors, and editors who tend to have a knee jerk reaction in favor of "radical free speech" instead of our traditional policies of removing personal attacks and blocking people who engage in them. And, yes, people who are hurting sometimes say things about other people that are unfair, mistakes are made. None of those potential criticisms of the list in any way support the rampant paranoia of the Register piece.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you state with certainty, that that particular list was never used to canvass support for any issues under discussion anywhere on Misplaced Pages? Cla68 (talk) 04:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I can state with absolute certainty that the cyberstalking list was and is absolutely used to discuss proposals for change to Misplaced Pages in order to deal with the very difficult issue of cyberstalking. This includes people discussing things like possible policy changes, and other people saying that those policy changes are unworkable, or unwise. In short, like every discussion I have ever seen of Wikipedians in any place, for example, private meetups, public mailing lists, public irc channels, private irc channels, coffeeshops, wiki workshops, etc., the list absolutely was used to canvass support for issues under discussion in Misplaced Pages. I can't imagine that anyone could imagine that any discussion could be otherwise.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The list was never a secret. It's just a private list with a closed membership. People who've been victims of cyberstalking or serious harassment because of their participation in Misplaced Pages are invited, as are others who've expressed an interest in finding ways to deal with it. The discussions are often very personal, with victims explaining what happened to them and what the harassment made them feel like. Alison was a member for only a very brief period — from memory, it was just over a week, though I'd have to check that. We go through periods where mostly one thing is discussed, then we change to something else, so you need to have been a member for some time to get an overall picture. The reason for the privacy is so that victims have a safe place to discuss what happened to them. For obvious reasons, no support group with an open membership could offer this. SlimVirgin 02:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Being familiar with the stalking and trolling that eminates from Misplaced Pages Review, I must say that I am certainly sympathetic to the creation of a private discussion board to counter-act it. That said, I am deeply concerned that we are allowing paranoia to take over the upper echelons of the Misplaced Pages Community. Some of the arguments I have seen concerning BADSITES and related matters coming from respected, established admins (and even ArbCom members) are honestly quite unbelievable. And now this. Frankly, it seems that Giano called a spade a spade and was punished becuase of it. The fact that the establishment (including Jimbo) came down on him so harshly unfortunately leaves egg on the face of the entire Misplaced Pages project. Of course what's done is done, and it seems most everyone is in agreement that the whole thing was an over-reaction and blown out of proportion. The only thing we can do now is ask how do we keep this rampant paranoia from getting out of hand? Clearly much of it is justified, but that doesn't change the fact that it is hurting Misplaced Pages. Kaldari (talk) 03:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of the email list was not about Misplaced Pages Review, nor about "counter-acting" it. The purpose of the email list was to allow cyberstalking victims a safe place with my support to talk about their pain, to talk about what happened to them, and to begin to think about how Misplaced Pages might change for the better. Of course some of that discussion would naturally mention WR and also mention people who have been supportive of the "radical free speech" culture that allows bad behavior to thrive. There is nothing paranoid about that. I have never supported WP:BADSITES as it was written and rejected, and indeed said so publicly. But we do need to grapple in a mature way with the serious issue of people making hurtful attacks off-site that would get people banned on-site. Giano got in trouble with a lot of people because he made a huge drama out of something that need not have been a drama. Rather than violating a basic rule of civility by posting a private email publicly, he could have forwarded it to the ArbCom and/or me for review. And if we refused to do anything about it, or if there was any kind of "coverup" of Durova's errors, then and ONLY THEN, he might be justified in going public as a "whistleblower". But as it is, he should not be thought of as a brave whistleblower in the face of repression and paranoia, but rather as someone who made a pretty serious error of judgment in what was already a difficult situation. (A bad block, an admin apologizing, ArbCom investigating, and people freaking out.)

The first step in eliminating rampant paranoia, I think, is to step back and take a look at where the paranoia really lies. We have all this stuff about "secret mailing lists", facts be damned. We have this idea that some secret top cabal is orchestrating whatever whatever. When what we really have is a lot of people freaking out over routine errors that could be solved with a bit of good faith and loving discussion. I really strongly support that people should relax and get over the paranoia driven by various trolling conspiracy theories...--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

When Giano posted the email ArbCom wasn't, to anyone's knowledge, doing anything at all, let alone "investigating". The only action to that point which carried any vestige of authority was your statement that "a 75 minute block...is hardly worth all that drama." Far from indicating that our community leadership is attending to the problem you basically indicated that you felt the problem was solved and that we should stop talking about it. Of course you are welcome to have an personal opinion on the issue, but I think many people regarded your statement as dismissive of any concerns that the situation wasn't really resolved. The point is, I think you need to be more careful about making "pronouncements from on high" in your leadership role. Because for you to say that Giano should have brought the issue to you for review, when you had already made a prominent statement downplaying the seriousness of the issue, strikes me as a bit unreasonable: you can't expect people to see you as a neutral party when you've already taken a position. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Harassment can be serious business; real-life stalking always is. While I support the idea of Misplaced Pages developing an official program for victims of Misplaced Pages-related harassment and cyberstalking (which I can attest personally does occur), I am concerned that Misplaced Pages needs to know its limits in this matter. Some sympathy and practical assistance is at the top of the list. Consideration needs to be given to whether or not the Foundation will release the collected information on the alleged harasser/stalker to police at the request of the victim; as the policy is a Foundation one, there may be value in discussing a comprehensive response process with other projects.

I will also add that I am somewhat concerned that, while the members of this group include individuals who have experienced stalking and real-life harassment, it is unlikely that any of them have any training in the skills required to assist victims most effectively. Support groups are good, but they are usually led by professionals or at minimum well trained volunteers. Risker (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your concern, and it is important to understand that this was an ad hoc spontaneous email group formed by a group of people who were hurting. A big part of what came out of it was exactly what you are saying: we contacted a professional and got some first advice, we formed a task force led by a psychologist to work on proposals, etc. This is an ongoing work in progress of course. And it is not being helped, sadly, by the rampant paranoia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, geez, Jimbo...thanks for telling us NOW. There was no way that this could have been mentioned on-wiki any earlier? You make it sound as though this planning has been going on for months. Instead of giving people hope and showing that this was an identified problem that was being taken seriously, the silence has been deafening. Risker (talk) 04:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I have talked about it openly for a long time. I am not sure what piece of what I just said was new for you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly have you said on-wiki that you/the Foundation were establishing a professionally developed program to address Misplaced Pages-related harassment and stalking? Was there something from the Foundation Board that got posted there and never disseminated to Wikipedians? Something in the Signpost? And irrespective of how this information was or was not disseminated to the community, what does this program entail - big picture, I understand that details may not be finalized. Risker (talk) 04:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even say that now, I am sorry if this is unclear. I think we will move in that direction in the near future, but for now, there is just what I said above... I would consider this the first step in a process. What does the program entail? No clue, details are not even really started, much less finalized. This is not a cabal list that is going to hand down policy to us out of the blue, this is a discussion group to get ideas. Anyone can start a similar group, or join any of the multiple places that similar discussions are being carried out everywhere on the wiki. :-) We can start talking about proposals right here if you like.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out on the wikipedia mail list by David G, http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/structurelessness.html has some useful insights into where the Misplaced Pages community has been and clues about where it should go. "Any group of people of whatever nature coming together for any length of time, for any purpose, will inevitably structure itself in some fashion. 'structurelessness' does not prevent the formation of informal structures, but only formal ones. The rules of how decisions are made are known only to a few and awareness of power is curtailed by those who know the rules, as long as the structure of the group is informal. Those who do not know the rules and are not chosen for initiation must remain in confusion, or suffer from paranoid delusions that something is happening of which they are not quite aware. It is this informal structure, particularly in unstructured groups, which forms the basis for elites. Elites are not conspiracies. Seldom does a small group of people get together and try to take over a larger group for its own ends. Elites are nothing more and nothing less than a group of friends who also happen to participate in the same political activities. In a structured group, two or more such friendship networks usually compete with each other for formal power. This is often the healthiest situation. The other members are in a position to arbitrate between the two competitors for power and thus are able to make demands of the group to whom they give their temporary allegiance. there are some principles we can keep in mind that are essential to democratic structuring and are politically effective also: 1 Delegation of specific authority to specific individuals for specific tasks by democratic procedures. 2 Requiring all those to whom authority has been delegated to be responsible to all those who selected them. 3 Distribution of authority among as many people as is reasonably possible. 4 Rotation of tasks among individuals. 5 Allocation of tasks along rational criteria. 6 Diffusion of information to everyone as frequently as possible. 7 Equal access to resources needed by the group. When these principles are applied, they ensure that whatever structures are developed by different movement groups will be controlled by and be responsible to the group. The group of people in positions of authority will be diffuse, flexible, open and temporary. They will not be in such an easy position to institutionalise their power because ultimate decisions will be made by the group at large. The group will have the power to determine who shall exercise authority within it." WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Clarification Since Cla has said that I "pointed out" SlimVirgin was lying, I'd like to be clear. I did not, and do not, accuse anyone of lying, and I rather resent being misrepresented. Slim made accusations about arbcom members leaking. I have no idea whether they are true or not. My comlaint, which Slim has graciously accepted, is that she should not have publicly implied that JamesF leaked, and that she disbelieved his assurances, without providing evidence. She should have discussed the matter privately with James and if dissatisfied gone to Jimbo, Arbcom, of the foundation. People should not make unsubstantiated allegation. And people should not accuse others of lying, or of calling people liars. Some of my own talk has been careless and open to misunderstanding, and for that I apologise to all parties. But, again, I have no reason to believe that Slim is lying.--Doc 09:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Your words were, "jwales: you really /should/ review this vile thread. In which JamesF is accused of being a liar by slimvirgin. The thread is blatantly libellous and involves senior wikipedians. But make up your own mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_tal...little_footnote". Now, I interpreted the word "libel" as lying. I just looked it up the word libel, and it doesn't quite mean lying, although it's close . So, I apologize for mischaracterizing your remarks and will be more careful in future. Cla68 (talk) 12:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. My words on IRC were fastly typed and badly phrased - sorry. It's best not to use IRC transcripts to understand what someone is saying - you could have asked me. What I meant to say is that very serious allegations were being made, which *if* untrue could amount to defamation. The "vileness" was in the heated tempers and inappropriate remarks being made by a number of users in that thread. That's what I did say on the talk page of the thread in question. Perhaps, next time ask me for clarification. Sorry if my words caused false impression - I offer an apology to you and to SlimVirgin. My punishment for loose talk will be a self-imposed ban from #wikipedia.--Doc 13:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

calling Giano, a widely respected if often difficult editor, a "rogue editor" is nonsense. No more nonsensical than calling him a troll . Here's another recent example of this troll at work .--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Praise for Jimbo Wales

Although I tend to consider Durova's email more ill-considered than Mr Wales seems to consider it (which does not mean I feel there should be any greater consequences for Durova than have already unfolded), I feel compelled to write that I believe all of Jimbo's recent actions are entirely admirable, thoughtful, and wise. There is no doubt in my mind that the role he is playing is the right one, and that attempts to remove or curb that role will not benefit Misplaced Pages. In my opinion it is quite remarkable that there is somebody so judicious at the head of this project, and I hope that he intends to continue playing the role that he does at present. If anything, that role should be expanded, and his wish to protect living people from their biographical entries enforced more tightly. Thanks Jimbo. BCST2001 (talk) 23:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. Good leadership is rare. Jimbo is the leader of these various projects, and everyone else should follow his vision, or feel free to start their own projects. It's not like the software and content are all not free to use by all. I am embarrassed by the constant disrespect that is shoveled on Jimbo on a daily basis. If people think they can do better, then prove it, and do it. - Crockspot (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

And I have to say I'm embarrassed by the constant abject flattery that's heaped on Jimbo on a daily basis. When Jimbo comes to, say, the en-admins IRC channel to ask for feedback and advice, as he did the other day, what kind of use do you think, say "admirable, thoughtful, and wise... quite remarkable that there is somebody so judicious" etc etc is to him then? Seriously? Bishonen | talk 00:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure who you are replying to, as my post contains no abject flattery, other than to imply that he gives good leadership. So may we expect to see a Bishowiki opening up soon? I have chosen to work on another project, not because of Jimbo's vision, but because of the refusal of much of the community to follow that vision. The leader of my new project does things a little differently, so rather than argue with him about it, I am adjusting and following, like a good team member should. - Crockspot (talk) 00:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. BCST2001 (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope that Jimbo also talks with serious critics, such as Seth Finkelstein. More can be learned from critics than adoring fans. - Jehochman 00:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Critics? Flattery? Sheesh. How about discussions among equals, where dissent is measured not in absolutes and agreement is always conditional? Isn't that actually what life is like? Neither the American myth of the CEO nor the slavish slavering over a Great Man nor the serf calling out for a departed master is becoming to a project that set out to prove that the many are always superior to the one, that all men are created equal (and behave less so). Geogre (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"But gushing supplicants debase the higher purpose of this place..." sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 03:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

My assessment is that Mr Wales has been wrongly criticized for his recent decisions, and my observation is that these decisions are correct and wise. Calling that assessment and that observation "abject flattery" or "gushing supplication" seems to me to be rather forced and melodramatic. BCST2001 (talk) 04:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You offer an assessment and an observation, but no analysis. Which decision did you like best? What was the most wise? You said "all" of them, do you really think so? How about accusing Giano of "trolling" and being a "drama monger", with a warning that he's already on borrowed time], all in the runup to Giano's ArbCom "election"? I think the only thing he said about Durova was that we need to love each other and chill.

Giano helped illuminate an incident that a lot of us think needed it, and his reward is a poisoned well. He was also made the star attraction at the misnamed Durova RfA. There are still unanswered questions, and now the press has its nose wet, and you can't just ban them. In retrospect, does this all seem like the optimal strategy to you? Admirably optimal?

My earlier quote wasn't addressed to you specifically, but to the general culture of demural and opacity that I and others dislike. If anything, it was melopoetic. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 08:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The decisions I was referring to were those which Jimbo mentioned here. In relation to Giano, I feel your comments are, again, rather hyperbolic. The essence of any "decision" Jimbo took about Giano would seem to be to take no action. And, again, a good decision. BCST2001 (talk) 10:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Frustrated

I'm simply saddened and frustrated by the entire situation regarding Durova, !!, Giano, and the "private" mailing lists. I like Durova, but Giano is also well regarded in my books, not only as an excellent writer, but someone committed to the project, not bound by "groupthink". I feel like it's poisonous for me to even comment on the situation. The one comment I did make, regarding WP:COI edits was blanked along with an entire section on AN. It's a waste of my time, I suppose to weigh in on matters. Also, I look at my deleted contributions and noticed that edits I made on SlimVirgin's talk page (regarding policy pages, where she is highly active) were deleted. I know there was a mass deletion on her pages (and highly regret and saddened by the harassment she has dealt with), but it's bothersome to me that my comments were deleted.

The mailing lists are also troublesome. What other private mailing lists are there? I like to assume good faith, but it's difficult at the moment to maintain trust in other admins who are on those lists. I just wonder if there is private discussion regarding policy, that I'm not privy too. I have found it very frustrating to engage SlimVirgin, Jossi, et al on policy talk pages. My suspicions are likely unfounded, but it just makes me very uncomfortable and find it difficult to create a welcoming, cordial editing atmosphere. At the moment, I am discouraged from editing and have not done much editing lately. (for multiple reasons) Maybe it would help if private lists were listed on Misplaced Pages:Mailing_lists. Obviously I can't be on arbcom-l, the oversight list, but at least aware they exist and accept them as legitimate. More transparency would be a good thing, to help dispell suspicions.

I have also felt very uncomfortable with how we have tolerated users who are not here to help the project. That has affected me, as well. However, I am concerned about the methods that Durova used to "identify" !!, that they were entirely inadequate. There are much better ways to get it right, when it comes to identifying sockpuppets. And, I think bringing cases before arbcom is a good idea (or having some official means, with legitimacy). There should be some due process. An ethical and fair means of dealing with sockpuppets is important for the community to maintain trust and faith in the project.

I'm not ready to give up on the project. Like Giano, I'll stick with it, but it's difficult to do article editing (and be positive about the project) with a cloud of suspicions hanging over the project. --Aude (talk) 05:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Aude, just to answer your question about policy, the only discussions on the cyberstalking list about policy have been about whether the civility or NPA policies are adequate, how to strengthen them, and issues like that. We've never discussed the core content policies, if that's what you're thinking. As for my talk page, what happened was that a harassing post was deleted a few months ago, and in the course of doing that, the whole page was inadvertently undeleted, which meant that some old harassing posts were visible again — it's a feature of the software that, when you undelete a page after deleting some edits, you can't easily see what was previously deleted so that it stays that way. So two other admins helped out by deleting everything, then beginning the job of slowing undeleting and moving the posts to archives. It's just been a slow business because there are thousands of edits to go through (from memory, it was close to 10,000), and it's a boring job. If you can identify when yours were, even roughly, I'll find them for you and restore them. SlimVirgin 06:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You are an admin. You can view my deleted contributions. As for the lists, we need to be more open about them that they exists (though understandably private). What other lists exist? Who knows, had I known about them, maybe I could have been some help to you. If you look at my userpage and see which articles I edit, it may give you an idea what kind of real life experience I have regarding investigations and dealing with people who have been victimized. At this point, I'm soured on the whole idea of "secret" lists and not sure I would be interested in them. Had they been merely "private", I (and others) should have been aware of them. Like arbcom-l and other private lists, I would be okay with that. We need more transparency on these matters, to dispel suspicions that others have and restore trust. --Aude (talk) 13:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

@Aude, thanks for your thoughtful contribution here. I agree with it by and large, except for your appreciation of Giano. I didn't follow any of the drama surrounding this person, nor did I encounter this person while editing. In that case I tend to accept Jimbo's appreciation, which happened to be "trolling" (or another word might have been used but I thought that was the thrust). Even Bishonen (whom I appreciate very much, having run into her in her early months here at Misplaced Pages where we collaborated on solving a sticky problem) didn't convince me otherwise. Well, I might go on diff hunt and form my own opinion. Let's say that Jimbo's appreciation isn't weighty enough for me to go vote either way on Giano's ArbCom candidacy.

@SlimVirgin, re. "We've never discussed the core content policies ": strangely enough that's what I suspected since I knew about the existence of such lists. IMHO that's a weakness, not something to be proud about. It's a discomforting example of groupthink: the list (or its predecessors if there were any) weighed on the core content policies (WP:ATT and WP:RS being stalled currently was unthinkable without such lists), and then you have the audacity to tell you didn't even discuss the content of the actions you were taking as a group w.r.t. core content policy? Let me tell you this again "When there are disagreements, they are resolved through polite reasoning, cooperation, and if necessary, negotiation on talk pages (...)" (from the second paragraph of Misplaced Pages:Consensus). One of the downsides of these lists (as I experienced them) was that its participants were cutting corners w.r.t. polite discussion on core content policies. I hope I made myself understandable without needing to give detailed examples. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Giano to Jimbo

I'm glad Bishonen raised this point here. (see "Our IRC conversation today: no references to Hitler" above) Too much is said behind the scenes that could be said here. This secretive discussion of editors by admins (and above) fuels the problems here. Let's have a more open and honest site. I think Jimbo instead of blaming everybody else in this matter. If you had instantly grasped the bull by the horns, and de-sysoped Durova immediately. This could all have been avoided. I cannot believe that you and those two dozen plus Arbs and checkusers on the list did not immediately check in your inboxes and begin emailing each other the second the shit hit the fan, which was a long time before I posted Durova's "evidence". Yet even after I posted it, and you had undoubtedly read it, you chose to threaten me rather than address the true matter. Is it any wonder people thought what the hell is going on?

My second point is to those who claim I did not need to post it, because others already had it. Why if others had it did they only act after I posted it on ANI? Either they did have it and were choosing to ignore it, of they did not have it until I posted it.

Finally. I advise editors against speaking to the press, let's air all our points openly and honestly and without fear on this site and deal with issues here. I am sick of seeing people being called Trolls etc. because they are trying to sort Misplaced Pages's problems this catcalling will only drive people to other off-site forums. Mistakes have been made, hopefully lessons learnt. Let's now move on now, the wiser for it. Giano (talk) 08:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Giano, I respect much of what you say and I suspect you have your heart in the right place when you suggest that everthing be left on the table here at WP. However, I have watched the quick archives and quick deletions for nearly two years as was done to this topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive113 (See #70.)

JzG is quick to block and quick to archive something that might help clear up much of what transpired when Durova was allowed to pursue her career as a sleuth. If things are left to discuss, then that is wonderful. If they are thrown under a rug, then it must go to the authorities. I am for open free speech. I think you are too. What do you think of quick blocks and quick deletions? Nice (talk) 22:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is Jimbo's space to answer questions mine is here . Giano (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Me

I never seen your pic till now, but I know people with beards chill hard. You should probably vote (or moo) for me.--EndlessDan 14:49, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

See Beard Liberation Front. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Hello, I would like to permenantly leave Misplaced Pages.

Can you please delete my accounts (Ricardo-Quaresma, and my two "sock-puppet" accounts JJGD and JJGD220, I have put '==JJGD==' on my user talk page to prove that they are my accounts)

Ricardo-Quaresma (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not possible to delete accounts, because edits need to be attributed to the person who made them in order to satisfy the GFDL. See m:Right to vanish for information on the steps you can take. Hut 8.5 18:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

BLP Request

Hi Jimbo,

Could you please include your two cents on this request for comment regarding a BLP. I would very much appreciate your thoughts and input on the subject.

Talk:Peter Yarrow#RfC: Conviction and pardon.

Thank you --Jkp212 (talk) 04:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

About privacy

I joined wiki this year, but really surprised to see privacy level here. I have some concerns and suggestions.

Especially in a shared ip address privacy is a big problem. Whenever someone is autoblocked it shows user who is blocked to everyone on that shared ip. Instead it should say only "you are autoblocked", not "you are blocked because of UserX", which is nothing but disclosing one's ip. Also unblock procedure for autoblock requires one to disclose their ip, all these are clear violation of policy. Sites by Google or Yahoo etc don't give up ip unless asked by court of law, not even to the police.

Another is checkuser log. My suggestion is that every month, a list of users(registered users only) who are checkusered should be released to public in alphabetical order, so that users will know if they are checkusered. This will be transparent without compromising with privacy.

This may be a non-commercial project, but strict copyright-policy and privacy-policy are essential to be called professional. Tabled sign (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Another Register article with comments from me

This new article in the Register also contains comments from me that I stand by. I invite you to discuss them with me, either here or by email. Your choice. Cla68 (talk) 00:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have emailed you at the yahoo address I have for you.--Jimbo Wales 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: Rfc: Can statements challanged for a long time and not cited be removed on a biography?

You might want to take a look at D. James Kennedy regarding a group of editors who are insisting on keeping unverified (and challanged for a few months via the {{fact}} tag) in the article in contradiction to WP:Verifiability. Thanks for your time and interest. Swarm Internationale (talk) 14:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I initially posted this, one reference has been produced, but you still might find the discussion, and the protection of remaining unverified but challanged statements, interesting. Swarm Internationale (talk) 14:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

All disputed statements have been cited. Thanks. (The motivational power of simply posting to this page is amazing, but I will try not to bother you again.) 15:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Misplaced Pages" is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Misplaced Pages is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Misplaced Pages should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Misplaced Pages article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Misplaced Pages included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Misplaced Pages extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Misplaced Pages better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Misplaced Pages in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Misplaced Pages is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages. And to caution them that Misplaced Pages is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Misplaced Pages in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters. :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting wikipedia and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use wikipedia as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Misplaced Pages has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting wikipedia as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree Misplaced Pages has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Misplaced Pages!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Misplaced Pages. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Misplaced Pages on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Misplaced Pages. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Stco23

This there any way to put two images into one because Collectonian is always bugging me about only one image deserve to be on one article and not two, three, or four images. I think Collectonian is going to far about this image issue. Can you please help me because I am getting very upset about this issue and I want to finish it. Bye.--Stco23 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you Google for some image software, there is plenty about with which one can do many things, but check to make sure you are not breaking copyright before uploading here. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, I have been a user for 2 years now and Collectonian put something on the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents page about me and is there a way to say something bad about someone and then change your mind by saying something else on wikipedia or can I put that and have to say the right thing instead. I am different for everyone else and you can see that in my user page. I think she doesn't like the way I act. I was uncivil to her a couple of times before because I tried to be nice, but she only ends up ruining it and I get upset. I put two images into one to make her happy, but she still reported me about my conduct. Is there any other way to talk to her or do I have to leave her alone. I know the rules now about images because I got blocked at one time for harassing people and I looked up the rules to find out. I don't think I can become an adminstor now because I got blocked before. I don't want to be blocked again. I do think that some of the things she does is wrong, but I don't know if you think they are right or not. I am trying to be a good editor, but I don't think I can be. I know this a encyclopia site and not a site that you can put many images on one article. I think it would be best if I backed off wikipedia for a while and just look at articles and not edit them. I try my best, but I don't think my best is good enough. Should I quit or should I still edit on wikipedia. Please let me know on my talk page. Thank You.--Stco23 (talk) 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi! How to desysop an admin in the German section of the wikipedia who misused his sysop-status and broke even more rules?

Hi!
As I didn'T find the appropriate section neither in the German nro the English section of Misplaced Pages.org though it is a topic that should be decided quickly, I just summon up some key facts about what happened.
The admin broke rules.
The admin used an arrogant, inappropriate reasoning for deleting parts of an article.
The admin was involed in deleting these parts and protecting the page in a changed status.
The cause for changing the article was not only a legal threat, but actually an user who comlained about the article and additionally filed an action very fast.
The admin, though he addressed an user in an answer on the discussion-page of that article as the complainant, didn'T block or delete that user as far as I know.
That entry which was answered by the admin did neither have an IP-adress or the user name: Unusual for my knowledge is, that even in the old versions of the discussion-page no IP-adress or user-name could be found, but only in the history-overview the user was to be seen. In the contributions-page of that user that entry could then be found.
The admin twice deleted entries of the discussion-page, that I had written as answers to entries from this admin(!), though they were neither intended nor unintended insulting. (That deletion of my entries to the discussion page is what really bothers me, followed by the next point.)
After the second deletion the admin blocked my IP-address.
As reason for blocking he stated that I would have written that I "don't want to write anymore" on wikipedia: This citation is a lie! I *never* wrote *that*!
The blocking must not have been done by that admin as he was involved in the discussion: From an old desysop-decision I know that this alone is enough of a reason to desysop that admin. (If I remember right it was even you yourself who wrote, that such in inaceptable.)

My question: How could I help you and wikipedia to prevent this admin of further breaking and bending the wikipedia rules? Please answer here!

With best regards 212.23.103.75 (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again! After I informed the admin that I will initiate an Arbitration to Desysop him, he removed that entry and the second entry that he deleted and I put back again. That way of course it will be more difficult to find more people who were blocked by him and/or pointed out how and when he broke rules alone on that discussion page and the related article.
After that within only hours he moved links on his userpage that pointed to former complaints against him to him being desysoped from top of his page to a not so prominent place. Actually maybe because only of that moving of the links I only have become aware of that links. (So that really backfire. I now know by these same links where to find the right page on the German wikipedia-section, to start a movment to desysop him.) These arbitrations were caused by rule-breaking blocks performed by the admin. One complainant said: 'This admin is known to use his admin-privileges to try to make other users who are in discussion with *him* "mundtot"'. (mundtot: to silence) The admin on the same page wrote, he deliberatly considered that his actions could result in him being desysoped, but he would do it again in the same situation.
As you maybe know, the situation in the German section of wikipedia is far worse regarding the cameraderia of the admins, supporting each other whatever topic and action is discussed or decided.
After seeing the old movements to desysop him, and now seeing him rule-breaking by blocking and deleting entries on discussion pages, I really wonder if you, Mr Wales, really could stood by watching. With best regard, and still hoping for an answer from you 212.23.103.85 (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

A message from a disillusioned Wiipedian.

The Politics of Misplaced Pages

When I discovered Misplaced Pages a few years ago, I almost immediately become enthralled. I got so into it after a while that I decided to "be bold" and contribute.

Over the course of the past year I've become rather discouraged as I've discovered that just like any big corporation, Misplaced Pages has it's share of "bigwig Pinheads" as well.

Common sense is thrown out the window here far to often.

Unless you happen to "have the right connections", then being a Wikipeian can't amount to much more than correcting spelling errors and punctuation.

Start a new article on what common sense dictates should, be a "notable" subject and the wikiclique will deem it "not notable" (while not applying the same standards to other similar articles). I guess it's about who you know. :(

After that, your optons are arbitration. And you know what? Most people have better things to do with their lives than jump through (what seem to any rational person to be) needlessly unnecessary "hoops" to get anything corrected here.

And if all this weren't bad enough, I come across this and this today.

What is wrong with this place? I thought Misplaced Pages was supposed to be "open"? --angrykeyboarder (a/k/a:Scott) (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, please note that this is further evidence that others have noticed some of the same issues that I've noticed. Have you reached out to this edtor to ask him why he/she feels this way? Perhaps you, or somebody with some authority and a good faith reason to be here, should. Cla68 (talk) 13:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It looks like part of why he feels this way is that he read the news stories that you contributed to which spread this nonsense about "secret mailing lists" and similar stuff. The other thing he seems upset about is an AfD for "zorpia". I will try to find the time to look that up but the google link he gives does not seem very helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

		The Special Barnstar
		I herewith award you, Jimbo Wales, the Special barnstar for your contribution to humanity, by creating Misplaced Pages! Thank you--Octavian history (talk) 23:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)