Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:15, 8 July 2005

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, between 1979 and 1993 there were over 313 incidents of break-ins, vandalism, arson and thefts committed in the name of animal rights in the U.S.

All break-ins, etc. done in the name of animal rights were not done by or in the name of the ALF. This seems like a misleading statistic to have in an article on the ALF and not on more general "animal rights movement". DanKeshet 04:04, Sep 25, 2003 (UTC)

ALF spokespersons

I edited this paragraph: "According to media sources, ALF spokespersons refuse to condemn violence by people who have previously acted in the name of the ALF, so long as they attempt no attribution of their violent acts to the ALF. For example, when David Blenkinsop, together with two other men who remain unidentified, severely beat Huntingdon Life Sciences director Brian Cass outside his home with 'staves' or 'pick-axe handles', ALF founder Ronnie Lee said of the victim "He has got off lightly. I have no sympathy for him." The ALF's 'decentralized resistance' model of organisation, with no formal membership or hierarchy, thus acts as a formal 'firebreak' in issues of legal responsibility (or moral accountability).

It said that Ronnie Lee is ALF founder and spokesperson, but I don't think he is a spokesperson, so I removed that, which leaves the paragraph with no reference, as I believe the reference cited only mentions Lee, whose views are known to be extreme and explicit. Does the editor who added this paragraph have a source for the first sentence i.e. a source that refers to recognized ALF spokespersons? SlimVirgin 18:16, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the steer, SV. I've added a quote from Robin Webb, which is better. The links between all these people are hard to be specific about, for obvious reasons. But I agree it's best to be precise. Adhib 19:04, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ah. So now the Webb quote turns out to have been a misattribution - thanks for the input, anon! Perhaps you can advise whether or not this BBC quote by 'Tim Daley' is legit? "In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors.'' Adhib 23:27, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An anon IP just inserted this into the intro: "It has been linked to PETA, which has circulated some of its propaganda tapes." I'm not sure it's appopriate for the intro in any event, but if it's to go anywhere in the article, it needs a reference. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 23:34, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Template

I've removed the anarchist template as the ALF is not an anarchist group (or any kind of group): activists claiming actions on behalf of the ALF come from across the political spectrum. Regarding the claimed link to PETA, that still needs a reference or it should probably be removed. SlimVirgin 10:07, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Reference required

Plain regular ham, you keep adding: "ALF attempts to maintain an image of non-violent action, as the frequent incidents of violence accompanying their actions are always reported by ALF as instigated by their victims." You would need a reference to show that there are frequent incidents of violence committed by ALF activists, and that they claim the violence was initiated by their victims. Without a reference, it can't be allowed to stay. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 17:30, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

OK. I reworked the statements to your liking. I expect the BBC is reputable enough. plain_regular_ham 18:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You rewrote the edit to read: "However, ALF reports many violent incidents, consistently claiming that the violence was instigated by their victims." You need to find a reference that shows (a) that the ALF reports many violent incidents, and (b) that they consistently claim the violence was instigated by their victims." It's POV, which means we must attribute it. The BBC reference didn't say that, and in any event you used it to support a different edit, so I'm not sure what you mean. SlimVirgin 18:35, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

I am satisfied with your last revision, though I recall a page detailing claimed violence against activists. I have no problem leaving it out. plain_regular_ham 18:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reverts that are incorrect

My edits keep getting reverted but there are multiple websites that support my claims.

A quick search on google will bring up the following along with many other articles:

• News on ALF and ecoterrorism
• Congressional Testimony

Now, this page clearly needs to be NPOV. However, any attempts to show that the ALF is an ecoterrorism group get reverted. That is not right because wikipedia should provide accurate information. The ALF is discussed in other terrorism and ecoterrorism pages but those terms keep getting blocked from this page.

Those of you who keep reverting, stop being dumbasses and suck it up. The ALF is clearly an ecoterrorism group, especially if it's recognized as one by the FBI.

I put the fact that the US government considers the group to be a terrorist group back in the article. We'll have to wait and see if it gets reverted or not. I included a link to the testimony on the FBI's web site.

JesseG 23:27, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

JesseG, I reverted your edit because I think we need a quote if we're going to say that the group is a terrorist group. If you look at Keith Mann, there is a reference to terrorism in the intro, because such references were prominent at the time of his conviction, but The Guardian is quoted as saying it, not Misplaced Pages, or unnamed critics. I've looked through the FBI reference, and I can't see where it explicitly says the ALF is a terrorist group, though I may have missed it. In fact, the FBI says in this statement that the ALF in the U.S. adheres to its policy of non-violence. Also, don't say the U.S. government if it's the FBI, unless you can find the ALF listed as a terrorist group by the State Dept, in which case we'd need a reference. SlimVirgin 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tag

To the editor who placed the tag on the page, to use it properly, you have to list specific suggestions for change that are actionable within our policies. Also, please sign your posts. See Misplaced Pages:Sign your posts on talk pagesSlimVirgin 01:54, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

I've expanded the article, done some reordering and copy editing, and added some images. I also found a quote for the "eco-terrorist" claim, which I put in the intro. I took the NPOV tag off because the person who added it hasn't left any comments. The tag isn't meant to be used hit-and-run style. If it's put back, please say specifically what you feel needs to be deleted, added, or rewritten. SlimVirgin June 28, 2005 07:04 (UTC)

PETA

We need a reputable reference for the claim that the U.S. ALF has a relationship with PETA, otherwise we'll have to remove it. SlimVirgin 01:56, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Links

Riobranden, we don't embed external links in articles. SlimVirgin June 30, 2005 22:58 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, it's not an external link..? I am genuinely confused. --RioBranden

Sorry, I've forgotten which one it was. Can you post it here? SlimVirgin July 6, 2005 22:09 (UTC)

I made "Animal_Liberation_Front#Origins and aims" look like "Origins and Aims", which seemed like it made sense to me because it is a subsection of the same page. --RioBranden