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Revision as of 23:48, 17 January 2008 editJzG (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers155,082 edits Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement: reply← Previous edit Revision as of 23:50, 17 January 2008 edit undoJzG (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers155,082 edits Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement: moreNext edit →
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=== Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement === === Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement ===
ScienceApologist, after receiving at 72-hour block for edit warring on ], applied for the Right to Vanish. His user page and talk page were blanked accordingly. However, ScienceApologist has not vanished. At all. Instead, he has returned to ] where dispute resolution is underway and his first act was one of incivility. Please see this (). I, in turn, removed the incivility and posted (IMHO) a very civil message on ScienceApologist talk page (). This posting was immediate deleted by ScienceApologist with an edit summary stating: "rv POV pushing by Levine2112" (). This was followed by a pretty terse posting at my talk page (). -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC) ScienceApologist, after receiving at 72-hour block for edit warring on ], applied for the Right to Vanish. His user page and talk page were blanked accordingly. However, ScienceApologist has not vanished. At all. Instead, he has returned to ] where dispute resolution is underway and his first act was one of incivility. Please see this (). I, in turn, removed the incivility and posted (IMHO) a very civil message on ScienceApologist talk page (). This posting was immediate deleted by ScienceApologist with an edit summary stating: "rv POV pushing by Levine2112" (). This was followed by a pretty terse posting at my talk page (). -- <b><font color="996600" face="times new roman,times,serif">]</font></b> <sup><font color="#774400" size="1" style="padding:1px;border:1px #996600 dotted;background-color:#FFFF99">]</font></sup> 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
* You could always try asking your pseudoscience and fringe POV-pushing friends to stop baiting him. That would probably work. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC) * You could always try asking your pseudoscience and fringe POV-pushing friends to stop baiting him. That would probably work - unlike pretending your personally-directed rudeness is civil and his more general testiness is not. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


==Friendly reminder requested== ==Friendly reminder requested==

Revision as of 23:50, 17 January 2008

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Important notes:

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Edit this section for new requests

Add new requests to the top of the page. Old requests will be automatically archived off the bottom three days after the last time stamp.

Derek Smart

Per the remedy labelled #7 at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Derek Smart, surrogates of Derek Smart are banned from editing his article. 3000ad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) claims on the account's user page to be used by the PR department of his company, and is editing the article. I pointed this out to 3000ad, but was told I was misinterpreting the Arbcom remedy. More eyes would be welcome here. - Ehheh (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Back to the Troubles ArbCom

I have placed Aatomic1 (talk · contribs) under probation under the provisions of the The Troubles for further revert-warring on Birmingham pub bombings. Please note the history of this editor with this article, this is approximately the fourth or fifth time he's been sanctioned for edit-warring on this article, and less then a month after the previous probation for edit-warring (which was endorsed by ArbCom) expired. I am pre-emptively bringing this up, because of the history of this editor, and his numerous complaints after the last probation was placed on him. SirFozzie (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Mrg3105

At Talk:Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, I politely requested Mrg3105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to refer to "Romania" not "Rumania", while at the same time saying he could call it what he pleased. In his first reply, he used the phrase "as much as you may dislike that personally", although I never expressed a dislike for Russians. I then reiterated my (and sources') preference for "Romania", which prompted a much more incivil second reply (with the edit summary "go for it Rumanians"). Excerpts: "I feel that I can continue to put logic or facts before you, and you will not see it if "it hit you in the face" as the saying goes. You and others are just intent to make the article as Rumanian/Romanian as you can for the sake of Romanian PRIDE you MUST insert as much ROMANIAN CONTENT into the article as possible. Well, go for it, but I will make you work for it, YOU can bet on that. EVERYTHING YOU SAY WILL HAVE TO BE REFERENCED AND SOURCED PROPERLY IN ENGLISH. you go and find your 'majority'". This is completely uncalled-for. I (and others) are attempting to engage in a dispassionate naming discussion, and here comes Mrg3105 to impute sinister motives on my part. I believe this is a violation of the Digwuren general restriction because Mrg3105, "working on topics related to Eastern Europe", has made edits that are "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith", and thus formal action should be taken against him. -- Biruitorul (talk) 04:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Warned him on his talk page. Will leave this AE case open a couple days to see what happens. — RlevseTalk17:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)w
Thatcher has also warned him, . — RlevseTalk22:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this acceptable? Mrg3105 is trying to discredit participants in a move request due to their apparent ethnic origin: "(look at the pages of these users) Biruitorul (very Rumanian), AdrianTM obviously not without Rumanian POV, Turgidson has a "Romanian Barnstar of National Merit", Eurocopter tigre is Rumanian, Roamataa another Rumanian". This appears to be a violation of WP:NPA, as well as a clear attempt to sow divisiveness on national lines. -- Biruitorul (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Noted. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 17:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit-warring under article probation

This relates again to the COFS arb. I am sorry to have multiple issues going here but I need some help with Olberon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I made a much-needed edit to the WP:EL at Scientology (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). On 9 Jan, I announced my intention to make these edits on the talk page and received only a little discussion but agreement that some work was needed on the links. Two days later, on 11 Jan, I made the edit . The edit stood and for the next two days a number of regular editors had a bit of discussion on the talk page about one link or another but no major objections to what I had did. Now comes Olberon and edit-wars with me over the inclusion. He has gone 2RR and I went 1RR so now my edit stands undone. I will not go 2RR on a page under article probation so I am at a disadvantage. Will someone please ask Olberon to self-revert and warn him about edit-warring under article probation. He ignored my warning. Thanks. --JustaHulk (talk) 16:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I offer my reasoning and respons here. I continue to disapprove to JustaHulks mass deletion of links. --Olberon (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
On the basis of the above comments, it seems that JustaHulk was justified in his actions, while Olberon's "disapproval" is entirely his own opinion. Note Olberon has not indicated he has subsequently himself reverted those deletions without specific justification for their inclusion. On that basis, I have requested on the talk page that the specific reasons for the inclusion of each individual link be presented. If they are not presented, or if they prove to be unconvincing, then I believe I may be justified to remove them again myself, as their inclusion has been more than questioned and, at that point, no reason for their specific inclusion given. I believe the burden of proof, as always, lies with the person seeking to include information, including external links. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
And now appears another fairly "new" editor with no history of editing Scn articles, Alice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to continue the edit war against the consensus of the established editors from both "sides" with the same erroneous and self-defeating attitude of "if unchallenged then its long term presence indicates consensus". --JustaHulk (talk) 20:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Warned. Next step is probably a 1RR limit on the entire article. Talk it out first, please. Thatcher 02:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Resolved requests

These issues have been resolved, and will be automatically archived after three days. Do not post in this section. Add new reports to the top section of the page. If you wish to continue a discussion that has been marked as resolved, please contact the administrator who marked it closed.



Arthur Ellis

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
blocked indef

Can an admin keep David Suzuki on their watchlist and block Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Arthur Ellis on sight? He was banned in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Warren Kinsella#Log of blocks and bans but he is continually re-inserting smack into the article. He is evading the page protection by registering new accounts a week early. His latest User:Climateguy was registered a week ago and is re-inserting the same thing as Chucky the barber , Overeditor , Backtalk, Sockpuppet99, Homeboy99, Hotgirl99, etc. Should I ask for a CheckUser? maclean 21:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Only Climateguy and Hotgirl99 weren't already blocked--now they are. I handled the SSP case where the others got blocked, yes this is more Arthur Ellis socketry. — RlevseTalk00:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


User:ScienceApologist

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
No violation

User:ScienceApologist appears to have violated WP:CANVASS by leaving non-neutral notices on user talk pages, a Wikiproject page and a noticeboard, as well as violating his ArbCom editing restrictions by making uncivil comments and assumptions of bad faith.

"Neutrally worded notifications sent to a small number of editors are considered "friendly notices" if they are intended to improve rather than to influence a discussion " "Always keep the message neutral"

The non-neutral and bad faith statements made by ScienceApologist:

  • Wikiproject:Physics statement: "We meed people willing to push back against New Age psuedoscience pushers at Talk:Consciousness causes collapse. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)"
  • Posted on several user talkpages: "Consciousness causes collapse has a number of pseudoscience promoters trying to argue that general consensus is not seen for the fact that this idea is pseudoscientific. ScienceApologist 20:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)"

ScienceApologist also posted a bad-faith, uncivil personal comment on another editor's talk page, saying "I'm sorry that you are ignorant of physics and haven't been able to understand the sources I cited." .

ScienceApologist has also assumed bad faith and made uncivil accusations in edit summaries,

  • In response to this edit, ScienceApologist accused the editor in his edit summary of “(rv BLATANT pseudoscientific POV-pushing.)"
  • This accusation was made after ScienceApologist made a previous, similar accusation: “(rv -- those edits look like POV-pushing...)"

Also, opinions are welcome on ScienceApologist's use of WP:SPADE regarding the contents of an article: .

Dreadstar 23:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I recognize that my comment to User:Wndl42 regarding the person's so-called "ignorance of physics" can easily be misconstrued as uncivil. I have struckthrough that comment. However, my analysis that there is some serious POV-pushing going on by a group of editors committed to New Age pseudoscience promotion stands. Also, I'll point out that the so-called "canvassing" was done as a direct consequence of my last block where User:FT2 counseled me to get outside help when conflicts arise. That's why I have a section on my talkpage called User:ScienceApologist#Administrative helpmates. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I noticed the "strike-through" and consider that a good first step. Perhaps even erasing the stricken comment with a nice, friendly note in the Edit Summary would be a good follow-up. That would clear up the "personal remarks" aspect of this.
It's difficult to separate personalities from principles, especially when it comes to pseudoscience. Let's assume good faith, give S.A. the benefit of the doubt, and try to consider objectively whether anyone is POV-pushing here. The goal is to create a neutral article, right? --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that everyone, including ScienceApologist should AGF in this situation. Pseudoscience is a delicate matter, and we should tread carefully to achieve our end—a fair, unbiased encyclopedia. Just my 2 cents. Regards, Keilana(recall) 00:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"I'm sorry that you are ignorant of physics" can not be construed as anything but a personal attack. Any native speaker of English engaging in civil discourse would most certainly not use the word "ignorant" to describe the person to whom they are speaking. Moreover, this appears to be a generalization from an alleged inability to understand a few sources to ignorance of an entire topic, which is unfounded. If this is a problem so severe that ArbCom has had to place restrictions, I don't see how a strikeout is going to help. MigFP (talk) 00:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Funny. I have in the past described myself as being ignorant of various topics. Does that mean I'm personally attacking myself? ScienceApologist (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Not at all, it is perfectly acceptable to apply the term to oneself. Are you being facetious, or do you really think that calling someone else ignorant is not an insult? MigFP (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Please don't mischaracterize this as something other than what was said. Not "ignorant," but "ignorant of physics." Many intelligent people are quite ignorant of physics. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Either way, it's an insult. See below. MigFP (talk) 01:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Strikethrough and apologise is fine. No need to get the tar and feathers out. Guy (Help!) 07:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Asserting that someone has pushed a POV is not an assumption of bad faith. Every day, with completely innocent intent, thousands of editors add POV statements to articles. There is no judgment about intent inherent in saying that someone has pushed a POV, only a judgment about outcome. If SA's rv -- those edits look like POV pushing is an assumption of bad faith, Dreadstar, what are we to make of an edit summary you left yesterday (rvt pov and non-consensus changes )? It strikes me as a mild case of "the pot calling the kettle black." Personally, I don't think your or SA's edit summaries fail to AGF. Antelan 01:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Antelan, there is an enormous difference between accusing someone of Misplaced Pages:POV-PUSH#POV_pushing and "innocent intent" edits that add a pov, or an edit summary that says 'rvt pov'. The accusations of POV-pushing can clearly be viewed as uncivil. Accusing someone of pushing a POV, without having convincing evidence of such intent, is clearly a bad faith, uncivl accusation. Dreadstar 01:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Nice try, but that doesn't even claim to be a policy document or a community guideline. Antelan 03:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus, a POV is being pushed here. Guy (Help!) 07:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how stating that someone is "ignorant of physics" is a personal attack. Most of my family members and friends would agree that they can be fairly characterized as such. This looks like yet another "let's poke SA with a stick and see if we can get him to blow up" thread. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That this "ignorant" comments comes from a post which SA entitled "Take some physics classes" seems to support the idea that this was indeed a personal attack. At the very least, one could describe these kinds of posts as "snide". I also don't think it is helpful or all that civil of SA to characterize editors as "New Age pseudoscience pushers" as he does so above or even as "pseudoscience promoters" as he had done during his canvassing efforts. What he deems to be pseudoscience is his POV and by calling others pushers or promoters constitutes incivility. -- Levine2112 01:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
One person's "snide" is another's clear and concise. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
It is clearly a comment on the contributor, not the content. It is also a derogatory comment. How would you feel if someone said you were ignorant of the norms of civil discourse? Your comments here lead me to suspect that might be true. A better way to have but it might be "I am sorry that your statments reflect a lack of understanding of (specific topic, not physics as a whole)." As it stands, it is clearly a personal attack per WP:NPA. MigFP (talk) 01:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
It looks like a personal attack to me. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not a personal attack, it's not particularly civil but neither is it particularly problematic. The option always exists of working with SA rather than simply removing statements people don't like. New age pseudoscientific concepts can be documented, but we should be very clear what their status is in the scientific mainstream. So, rather than shooting the messenger, why not help out with the process of persuading those who resist including the well-documented mainstream interpretation? That would be more productive, since it is a better result for the encyclopaedia than badgering the editor working for NPOV. Guy (Help!) 07:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

All--This is an arb enforcement page, not a debate page. — RlevseTalk02:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering that ScienceApologist's last block came as the result of calling other editors POV pushers, regardless of how astute that observation may really have been, he's toeing the line in a few of the diffs Dreadstar provided. However, many of those diffs aren't particularly relevant to his ArbCom restrictions in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with the WP:SPADE edit. And while calling someone "ignorant of physics" might be worded a little sharply (even though the person in question may very well be ignorant of physics), I don't see how we can simply assume it was done out of bad faith. And as far as WP:CANVASS goes, it's merely a behavioral guideline. Correct me if I missed something, but it was four edits, and you could've just left him a note on his talk page about it. I don't see any blatant attacks on other editors, so I see no clear and pressing need for arbitration enforcement. ScienceApologist should be more careful about calling out others for POV pushing, given the way civility guidelines are enforced, but a block would be overkill. -- RG 11:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Agree with RG2. A block would be overkill, and he certainly wasn't canvassing. The administrative helpers (of whom I am one) is an informal arrangement meant to help avoid this sort of thing. We're supposed to be neutral outsiders who SA can ask to wade in and evaluate a situation - if he's right, and there's POV-pushing, we can correct it; if he's wrong and being hasty or rude, we can correct that too. It's not meant to be a canvass for support. ♠PMC17:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree with RG2/PMC William M. Connolley (talk) 18:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment: I thought ScienceApologist was to be more careful about his pseudoscience accusations pr WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjaminbruheim (talkcontribs) 02:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's what we said. -- RG 02:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, we have to remember that pseudoscience is not science. We should try to make Misplaced Pages an unbiased encyclopedia. However, we cannot afford to be 'nice' to pseudoscientific theories. That's just not acceptable. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. But consensus at the moment is to be nice to pseudoscientific garbage, and unfortunately, we have to learn to work within that framework to get things done. We're getting off topic, though, as this discussion should solely be focused on the merits of Dreadstar's accusation that ScienceApologist has violated ArbCom restrictions. -- RG 03:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much consensus that he did to a degree that anything other than has been said is necessary, reviewing the comments of 4 different admins above. There's nothing left to do here, case is closed. FeloniousMonk (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to reopen Arbitration Enforcement

ScienceApologist, after receiving at 72-hour block for edit warring on What the Bleep Do We Know!?, applied for the Right to Vanish. His user page and talk page were blanked accordingly. However, ScienceApologist has not vanished. At all. Instead, he has returned to Talk:What the Bleep Do We Know!? where dispute resolution is underway and his first act was one of incivility. Please see this (diff). I, in turn, removed the incivility and posted (IMHO) a very civil message on ScienceApologist talk page (diff). This posting was immediate deleted by ScienceApologist with an edit summary stating: "rv POV pushing by Levine2112" (diff). This was followed by a pretty terse posting at my talk page (diff). -- Levine2112 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

  • You could always try asking your pseudoscience and fringe POV-pushing friends to stop baiting him. That would probably work - unlike pretending your personally-directed rudeness is civil and his more general testiness is not. Guy (Help!) 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Friendly reminder requested

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
Obviously, Rlevse's warning (Jan 11) did not attain its desired goal as Anyeverybody continues on, eleswhere, with questionable "questions" (questionable since discussion remain ongoing here). Twenty four hour block. The next block will be significantly longer. El_C 02:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS Since I don't want it to appear as though I've been seeking this editor out, I just want to get it noted that I'm not. Bearing in mind that the committee ruled that this editor and myself should limit our interactions, he has begun editing pages I have been active on and posting on my talk page, I'll include these in roughly chronological order;

I don't mind dealing with this person, however I'm concerned that it could be interpreted that I'm flouting the ruling. Moreover since it was found that I had harassed him without actually seeking him out, I don't want that to happen again. Anynobody 01:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

AN, I apologize if I have been making you uncomfortable as regards the arb ruling, that was not my intent. You are right that I have originated or joined ongoing discussion with you on some issues of mutual interest. I thought we were being collegial about it and I, for one, certainly do not feel harassed, and I felt that our exchanges were within the boundaries of the ruling (and unlikely to exceed those boundaries), but if you prefer that I not communicate directly with you at all then just say the word and I will honor your request. --JustaHulk (talk) 03:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your apology, but it's not that you're making me uncomfortable so much as this is exactly the way we came to the previous disagreement. You may or may not remember that I was editing Barbara Schwarz when BabyDweezil asked for your assistance. From there my attempt at coming to a mutual understanding with you over a minor issue as well as concerns you expressed about my understanding of guidelines was rebuffed. So another user, also experiencing difficulty with you, and I attempted to seek dispute resolution, long story made short it ended with you saying I was harassing you in the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS case.

Here we are disagreeing again, if it continues we'll have to seek WP:DR again as well. We're essentially going down the same road, and you're driving. (That's all I want to make sure is noted to address any concerns of harassment on my part.) Anynobody 21:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, without getting into your self-serving abridged version of our history, I do not think it likely that I will not take an interest in Schwarz. You are right about one thing, since BabyDweezil turned me on to that article I have maintained an interest in it and in her presentation in this project by those that may or may not have an ax to grind and/or those that may or may not know when to let things go. How that relates to you and I seems to be that some interaction between us is unavoidable so long as you continue your interest in the subject, also. I think that so long as you do not go from disagreeing with me to trying to have me sanctioned then things should be alright. --JustaHulk (talk) 21:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Closing, see note at top. — RlevseTalk03:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that I'm supposed to request/suggest a remedy, which I didn't, or that the arbcom case's remedy is vague? Anynobody 04:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

  • The problem is that Anynobody is prohibited from harassing JustaHulk, enforceable by blocks, while JustaHulk is urged to avoid Anynobody. It would be wise for JustaHulk to heed the urging of Arbcom but there is no enforceable means to prevent JustaHulk from editing the same articles as Anynobody. This does create the potential for an inequitable situation, but that can avoided as long as Anynobody keeps a cool head and does not resume harassing JustaHulk. If it appears to Anynobody that JustaHulk is harassing him, or baiting him into resuming the previous behavior, Anynobody can report here (*if the article is under probation JustaHulk could be blocked or topic-banned for baiting), or at WP:ANI (*if the baiting is so outrageous that it is sanctionable under the general harassment and NPA rules). If neither of those two conditions is met, then Anynobody will have to go back to Arbcom for a modification of the original ruling placing them on more equal footing. Obviously, pleasant, productive and collaborative interactions between editors are always encouraged, especially if those editors can put past disputes behind them. Thatcher 16:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, the whole reason for the unequal treatment in the arb is that I was deemed the "victim" (or perhaps "harassee" is a better term). It is entirely fair that I edit any article I care to. I am not interested in baiting AN and I am not a "crybaby" - I don't mind a bit (or more than a bit) of spirited debate. The warning that User:Rlevse gave me was not in keeping with the arb. It was inappropriate for Rlevse to give an equal warning in an inherently unequal situation. I will write more later but I have a meeting at this hour. --JustaHulk (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • To continue, I am not intentionally baiting AN to start harassing me so that I can then complain. I don't do "bait and bitch", a term I coined to describe the on-Wiki activities of one of our Scientology-critics toward Scientologists that attempt to edit here. So no, so long as AN does not engage in the type of activity that got him in trouble before then we should not have any problems. And the key is for AN to realize that people can disagree. It ain't the end of the world if AN and I disagree. This line is problematic "Here we are disagreeing again, if it continues we'll have to seek WP:DR again as well." What do you mean? What is the big deal for you that we disagree. We are two small fish in a very huge sea of small fish. If by WP:DR you mean that we get a WP:3O or a regular RfC on our issue, then fine and that is what I urged you to do all along before the arbitration. What got you in trouble is making it about ME as an editor with your claims of WP:COI and User RfCs and the like. AN, you can use any WP:DR you like so long as it is about the article and not about me. That's easy to understand and follow, isn't it? --JustaHulk (talk) 19:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I was responding mainly to Anynobody. He seems to be concerned that you are editing the same articles. For the reasons you point out, the remedy is one-sided. In order for him to edit successfully and not trigger any harassment blocks, he needs to not harass you. That means finding more appropriate ways to deal with disagreements. The top of this page points out that it is not acceptable to game the system or try and bait editors who are under restriction, and I was simply pointing that out, not that I think you would do that. And regarding Rlevse, I would tend to agree with you that the remedies in the case were one-sided for a reason, and that a "warning" was not the best language to use. Thatcher 23:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for responding Thatcher, the discussion has touched on my main concern, but I'll clarify it a bit more. In discussing the unequal nature of the ruling, Justanother says :*Well, the whole reason for the unequal treatment in the arb is that I was deemed the "victim" (or perhaps "harassee" is a better term). The first discussion of any type of harassment was allegations of "pestering" Justanother, despite him being unable to identify when I had actually done any pestering:Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Workshop#Mutual pestering ban between Anynobody and Justanother. Not long afterward it turned into this:Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Harassment of User:Justanother by User:Anynobody. I honestly can't think of any harassment I've done, so I asked what the harassing behavior was: Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Harassment ? the response I got was a bit difficult to believe. I was never able to get a clear understanding of what I had done, and they didn't say why they found I had harassed him:as you might have noticed in the earlier link (this one's included just for convenience in case it wasn't seen).

I'm not presenting any assumptions about Justanother, however since

  • the ruling was pretty emphatic about keeping distance
  • this is how things started

and

  • I still have no clue what I did before to be found a harasser,

I just want to get it on record that as before contact was initiated by him, so at least it could be questioned why one would go back for "more punishment" should the subject come up again. Anynobody 02:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

AN,I am sorry that you are having difficulty understanding what exactly got you in trouble. That is an uncomfortable situation, I am sure. Please reread my previous post as I pretty well sum it up there. Here it is again in a nutshell. It is entirely appropriate for you to ask for community input on any issues of disagreement - on the issues. The issues. It is not appropriate for you to target the editor that you disagree with and repeatedly hold that editor up to community scrutiny. The issues not the editor. Can it be made any clearer than that? --JustaHulk (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I did indeed read your post, and I guess it's difficult reconciling that with what actually happened. You'll find that any time I held you up to community scrutiny it was done citing a concern for a policy/guideline and was much less, shall we say "public" than how you held me or others up to the same scrutiny (These are all threads started by you on WP:ANI, minus templates like {{userlinks}} etc.):

You held Smee up to way more scrutiny than I ever did you. Here's a quick sample to refresh your memory:

There were actually others too:

When/where did I alone ever hold you up to the kind of community scrutiny that matches the level of what you were doing at the same time to several editors (including me) on WP:ANI? I'd really like to know and these links should help, Special:Contributions/Anynobody and Special:Contributions/Anyeverybody Anynobody 05:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And this constitutes exactly the behavior that got you in trouble and here you are doing it on the Arbitration Enforcement page itself!!!

Seriously, you did this crap in the arb also and you were cautioned there. One thing I have noticed about you, AN, is that you refuse to "get it" and you will prove that you refuse to "get it" every chance you get. --JustaHulk (talk) 06:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide a diff from the arbcom where I pulled "this crap" and was told why what I did was like/unlike this? (Seriously, I'm not holding a grudge I just can't remember doing anything like what I've identified as harassment. Would you please just show where/when I did the same thing?) Anynobody 06:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Violation of "no harassment" ruling

Anynobody is violating the "no harassment ruling" right here, right now. See above. I was trying in good faith to explain to him the difference between acceptable behavior and prohibited behavior as he continually says that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do under the arb ruling and he grossly breaks it right here. Please someone help him! --JustaHulk (talk) 06:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I was involved in this case. Anynobody has a long history of trolling and goading. He is now bringing up pre-arbitration grievances. There is no reason to open old disputes. This is harassment and baiting by Anynobody. Jehochman 06:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Guys, I didn't understand then, I still don't. How was it ok for him to take his concerns to WP:ANI and my concerns are deemed harassment? Anynobody 06:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, if one has never really done anything wrong, it seems like one shouldn't mind their actions being discussed. I don't mind any mistakes I've made being talked about. I view what I cited as behavior consistent with what the arbcom meant by harassment, is it and if not what was the difference? (Bear in mind I'm not asking for any punishment if it is, given the amount of time that has passed. However a simple answer to guide future efforts would be helpful.)Anynobody 06:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, you do realize these are things about me and others that you identified as cause for concern. Don't you still stand by the validity of those concerns? Anynobody 07:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, am I really the only person who thinks it's unfair for me to be called a "harasser" for pursuing WP:DR which put the actions of another editor up for scrutiny when that same editor has not only done more or less the same thing before and has started doing so again, User:Anyeverybody (AKA User:Anynobody) and Barbara Schwarz. If you look at the tone of the examples I cited from before and of this recent one, nothing has changed, so why isn't it harassment for him to hold my actions up to scrutiny? Anynobody 07:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You had your chance for a hearing at arbitration. The findings speak for themselves. If you cannot understand how to act properly, maybe you should just take a wikibreak until you feel like you can edit without placing unwanted attention on Justanother. Jehochman 14:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Bad faith by User:Anyeverybody
AN constantly claims that he does not understand the ruling but when it is clearly explained to him, he ignores the explanation and grossly violates it by trotting out his collections of old, out-of-context diffs regarding me. Regarding AN's request that I prove my statement, sure I will waste some more time showing him what he likely already knows - Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS/Workshop#Disclosure of report to WP:3RR regarding Justanother. AN's activity during the arb itself garnered these responses from an arbitrator and an experienced admin:

FYI, this is exactly the sort of thing that will get you blocked if the remedies regarding your behavior toward Justanother pass. --jpgordon 15:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Unbefuckinglievable. "I'm just using as an example." Again and again and again: Justanother the eternal example. Jpgordon, the proposed harassment remedy and its enforcement by blocks are clearly going to pass. May we have a temporary harassment injunction right now to cover the time up to when they formally pass? Bishonen | talk 20:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC).

Well, the remedies did pass and AN's egregious violation above calls for their application. I, for one, am kinda out of WP:AGF as regards this cat. The above was the last straw for me. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Forum shopping by User:Anyeverybody

Here's an example of how Anynobody masterfully uses the trolling tactics of pestering and misuse of process to create disruption. Its the same "I am not complaining about you, just using you as an example" ploy that Bishonen found "unbefuckinglievable". Anynobody had no issues with me until I came to the defense of Justanother. (Since Bishonen is away, I feel obligated, and Anynobody's timing in filing this complaint is not lost on me.) The COFS dispute has lingered for a very long time. I think it's time for strict enforcement of the remedies against Anynobody. Jehochman 18:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is disruption to make a point. Jehochman 18:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Tenebrae

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
As this report was filed by Skyelark as an IP against Tenebrae and no enforceable behavior was found, closed. Some issues have been raised about Skyelark's conduct, but there is not much in the way of specifics and the thread is getting tangled. To report concern's with Skyelark's behavior please make a new report showing what part of the ruling he breached and include some appropriate diffs. Thatcher 02:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


Comments on the article's talk page by this party involved in the dispute contain several uncivil remarks that could be considered inflammatory to the situation and would contravene Principles 1 (Editorial Process) and 3 (Assume Good Faith) and would go against Remedy No. 3 - Disruptive Editing (which extends to any related article or page).

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AJohn_Buscema&diff=183100476&oldid=183004684

Some of the offending passages, all referring to the other party of the ArbCom ruling :

'The above post is so inaccurate it's preposterous.'

'As for the version of the article to which Skyelarke links, it is a hagiographic, fan-magazine travesty...'

'...purposefully misleading statements, however, I believe need to be addressed in forceful terms....'

"A lie can travel halfway 'round the world before the truth gets out the front door."

'One can't let the goaders get your goat.'

--70.48.122.29 (talk) 11:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

First ruling:The arb enforcement ruling allows talk entries and the remedy specifically applies to violating the page ban. I don't see this as an arb enforcement case, but a case of generic incivility and disruption, so I'm warning him in this case. — RlevseTalk11:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/John_Buscema

This was reopened at Tenebrae's request. He states he was not notified. I apologize for missing that when I first handled this. — RlevseTalk • 15:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC
New section
Never received notification

CC of posting placed at ]

==Never received notification==
I never received notification of the case against me at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Tenebrae. I'd like the case reopened in order to have a chance to respond. I think that would be the fair thing, obviously. Thanks, --

Additional note here: I find it troubling that the accusation against me was made by an anonymous IP that seems to be a sock-puppet of User:Skyelarke, as evidenced by this sequence: , --Tenebrae (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/John_Buscema

Comments on the article's talk page by this party involved in the dispute contain several uncivil assumption of bad faith remarks that could be considered inflammatory to the situation and would contravene Principles 1 (Editorial Process) and 3 (Assume Good Faith) and would go against Remedy No. 3 - Disruptive Editing (which extends to any related article or page).

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AJohn_Buscema&diff=183857439&oldid=183854034

The offending remark, all referring to the other party of the ArbCom ruling :

' ... I made corrections to such things as an unfounded claim you attributed to that book. '

'Please, I ask you again, as I have numerous times: Do not say things you know are untrue. It's neither reasonable nor fair to make another editor frequently have to point out untruths.'

--Skyelarke (talk) 22:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment At this point both editors need to be warned off. It's looking more and more like a case of intentional goading between this complain and the previous one. And if, if mind you, there is any truth in the assertion that an editor subject to the ArbCom ruling is deliberately twisting comments or miss-representing facts, that editor should back off and re-think his attachment to the article. - J Greb (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the corrections that I'm suggesting are basic and necessary and, I thought, uncontentious - I don't enjoy making these enforcement notices - but am doing them diligently early on so as to ensure a future civil discussion atmosphere - If you feel that I've been disruptive, you're welcome to report it, no hard feelings - if it improves the level of civility on the page, then all the better.

--Skyelarke (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is both of you have been biting each other for months. On the talk, with the RfCs, with the abortive mediation, and with the ArbCom. It escalated to the point where it looks like knee jerk reactions.
Was there a bad reaction from Tenebrae which got you to post the first call for enforcement? Yes. But, you trimmed the material and left out that 1) he was called on lack of civility on the talk page itself and that portions of the material were from him explaining himself, why he went off and how he perceives things.
This situation is close to the same. He's calling what he sees as dishonest claims as such. And this is where it's getting annoying watching.
You are coming here complaining about Tenebrae, at worst, not changing or, at best, holding you to account, but you aren't changing your tone or attitude. You need to be as aware that the ArbCom sanctions are against you and your actions as much as his. Re-think how you are presenting things on the article talk and be aware of the ill feeling that do exist between you two. That means presenting the information you have for verification, not as universal truth. For example, the source material you two are arguing over, a neutral start would have been:
"The edition I've been using as a source is John Buscema Sketchbook by Spurlock and Buscema. It lists a pub date of 2001 by Vanguard Productions in New Jersey. Is this the same book you're using?"
Asking, not dictating. And then allowing others to check and confirm, not goad. Tenebrae commented that he needs time to physically check the edition he has. That didn't need your defensive, and slightly possessive response. That didn't need any response beyond "Fair enough, we can compare when you've been able to get to the book." Simple and neutral.
- J Greb (talk) 00:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


Cool, but at this point I just feel that if Tenebrae, yourself, or anyone has the concerns about my conduct that both of you are expressing, it's probably better to just go with the ArbCom remedy process and make an enforcement notice - that way objective proof is provided and a qualified administrator will look into it and it will get properly handled and documented. A friendly suggestion - look, I'm even smiling :) --Skyelarke (talk) 04:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Response Skyelark and Tenebrae, the Misplaced Pages editing process is very simple. If you can not resolve a dispute by amicable discussion, you involved additional outside editors. In this case, for example, that may mean asking someone neutral at Wikiproject:Comics to get a copy of the same book and double-check your interpretations. If you can not learn to resolve your disputes amicably and through discussion and consensus, the ban on editing the article will be extended. Thatcher 12:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

All I can say is, I did ask for additional editors, and when the RfC didn't go Skyelarke's way, he went ahead and made the non-consensus changes and made baseless accusations about canvassing that are demonstrably untrue. See, among other places, this posting by an outside editor.
One of the balder examples of Skyelarke's misstatements, to use a polite term, is his false statement here that "he doesn't seem to be contesting the inherent correctness of the information." Not only did I, but so did several other editors at Talk:John Buscema#Request for Comment: NPOV and images.
Lastly, and thank you for noticing, Skyelarke has until now not been called to task for a pattern of deliberate goading — for which I can find no more concrete an example than his insistence, during part of the mediation, on writing everything in hard-to-read italics despite my and the mediator's repeated requests for him not to do so. His continued goading eventually got me so frustrated I finally wrote three sentences in boldface capital letters to try to get him to empathize with how unnecessarily more difficult it is to try reading non-standard fonts, as one can judge for oneself.
All I can add at this point is to ask you go to User:Tenebrae, see my contributions, my long and generally non-controversial experience, and the compliments, at bottom of page, from some of my peers. I'm not sure Skyelarke's single-article hero-worshipping has contributed similarly. And I will be glad to have the ban extended indefinitely so long as Skyelarke and any sock-puppets or surrogates do the same — that's how strongly I feel about the sheer impropriety of his hagiographic content. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Comments
Thatcher - At this point the situation is all but intractable. The posts by both Skyelarke and Tenebrae on the Buscema talk page started out exactly the same way they had been before the ArbCom closed. Tenebrae has started to change his tone since Hiding called him on it on the Buscema talk. Skyelarke has not, and things like this only add to the problem since it comes across as defensive and goading. (Note: Skye seems to be having trouble remembering to log in before posting.) I pointed this out to him above and got back what reads to me as "Make it a formal complaint and if an admin warns me I'll change, but not until then."
And you may want to note that neither has made a run at the article itself. And that there has been little chance given for any attempt at dialogue since the ArbCom. The kick-off post from Skyelarke was brusk, propriatory, and self-promoting, not a post of "I see a problem with this or that. Shouldn't it be this way?" When Tenebrae reacted in a predictable manner, Skyelark's response was not to try to modify the discussion or remind Tenebrae about the ArbCom sanction on the talk page, but to immediately report him here. Frankly, I find that worse than Tenebrae's not stopping and double-thinking before hitting the "Save page" button. We haven't started with a clean slate, we haven't started a process of getting better, we've started a game that is going to turn this page into a tit-for-tat harangue that will just make things worse.
Tenebrae - Even with as much history as there is between you and Skyelarke on the Buscema article, this isn't the place to dredge up an overly detailed re-hash. The ArbCom itself was the place for that, and the net result was both of you were told to clean up your acts. This is supposed to be the place where serious breaches of the ArbCom sanctions made by either of you are to be noted for further remedy.
- J Greb (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


  • Further note to my closing statement above, Skyelark's contribution history is indeed illuminating. It is difficult in cases like this to determine with clarity that one editor has been baiting or goading another who is completely (or mostly) innocent, but we will do our best with any new reports. Thatcher 02:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.