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I've just noticed that our link in the side bar reads "Mental Health Issues" - that seems to support my rather recommended proposal of moving the (now tiny stub of an) article to "Mental Health Issues regarding Abortion" or something similar and leaving Post-Abortion Syndrome as one section in a larger article. Thoughts? Kuronue | Talk 01:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd support that, no problem. Phyesalis (talk) 01:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

So would I. There doesn't seem to be that much to say about PAS specifically, while there's much more to say about mental after-effects of abortion in general. I think this should satisfy Strider too, as she's been trying to lean this article that way. My only concern is a move like that might land us back where we were with the revert-warring... but fear of that shouldn't stop us from making the move to a better title. We'll worry about wars later, if/when it happens. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:22, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

We just moved PAS to mental health effects of abortion. For that reason, I think there should be other external links that are not PAS-specific. Also, what happens to the interwiki links? миражinred (speak, my child...) 01:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

If you mean the links from other articles to Post-abortion syndrome, they're automatically redirected to the new article name (try clicking that link). Equazcion •✗/C • 02:40, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Oh no. I meant to say that since the title of this article is no longer post-abortion syndrome, I wasn't sure if it should continue to be linked to the German and the Portuguese Wikpedia. миражinred (speak, my child...) 02:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I just want to note that back in September (see here) I proposed renaming the article to Abortion and mental health and expanding the article to not focus only on PAS. I'm glad to see that path now finally pursued, and I still think my proposed name is better ;P-Andrew c  02:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I think that can be another possible name for the article. миражinred (speak, my child...) 03:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I remember the suggestion being brought up many times, and happily weighed in my support every time, only to see it get utterly ignored in favor of the next big "POV" crisis. I debated Abortion and Mental Health as a title for a while but then decided it seemed somehow less.. direct. Mental health effects of abortion tells how it's linked; Abortion and mental health seems to indicate, to me, things like how many "crazy" people have abortions. Kuronue | Talk 03:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, "abortion and mental health" implies that the article deals in what causes people to make the decision to have an abortion. As for your previous suggested moves, I wasn't around for those, but you should've just taken the initiative, like user:Saranghae honey did :) Good ideas can be enacted without much discussion, long as they really are good ideas. The worst that can happen is someone reverts you, but you still wouldn't have broken any rules. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:46, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Woah! "Mental health effects of abortion" overtly implies that abortion has an effect on mental health. Our sources say otherwise. The title should say either "Abortion and Mental Health" or "Controversial Claims on Mental Health and Abortion." Also, until we can come up with a better name, I think we should change the article back to "Post-Abortion Syndrome," since that is what the article is about!! --IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Holy cow! The first paragraph is just empirically wrong!--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Holy cow! Then change it. As for the title: There are sources that say there are definitely never any psychological effects of abortion? This is just an article that discusses mental health as it relates to abortion, and I don't think anyone disputes the notion that abortion is related to mental health, in some way. I don't think the current title implies that there are definitely always effects, or whether those effects are bad, good, or neutral. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:32, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on how the first paragraph is incorrect? миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Time out

Let's get something straight. This article is no longer about presenting various negative effects and then proving or disproving a causal relationship between those effects and abortion. The article has changed. It's now about simply presenting all the possible effects of abortion on mental health. The controversy over PAS is now just a small part in a little subsection. Nothing needs to have been proved. Controversy is no longer the focus here. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:38, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

This article is no longer about post-abortion syndrome anymore. The article is about abortion and mental health, positive and negative. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

First, and I mean this literally, that is a ridiculous premise. You simply can't list all the "possible" effects of abortion and mental health. Your list would be a mile long - every feeling that any woman ever had after receiving an abortion would merit a description. Before we make radical changes to this article, we have to think seriously about what is possible and what is responsible.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

In other words, the PAS article was in response to a very real controversy. Making this article about "Abortion and Mental Health" is opening a can of worms we aren't ready to deal with. Also, we still need to have a PAS article (not only a paragraph), just as there is an "abortion and breast cancer" article. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The possible effects are backed by numerous studies. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We're not listing everything anyone has ever claimed. We're just listing possibilities shown from studies. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:42, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Which studies? There are 4895247589 studies, and 24895828357 doctors with opinions on those studies. We simply can't be a mental health resource here. But we can respond to controversies and controversial topics about abortion.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

In the words of the creationists, Misplaced Pages also is not a place solely to "teach the controversy." I like the current draft as it is. It lists the possible positive and negative effects and the confounding factors that can influence mental health after abortion. It seems neutral to me. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do we need an article on PAS? We had one and it was a stub. Abortion and mental health isn't a can of worms; PAS was the can of worms, and we've closed it by cutting it down. This article is about presenting the discussion rather than proving one side over the other. It's a much lighter subject. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:46, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. The very title of post-abortion syndrome invited disruptive edit warring that did little to improve the article. What happened after users argued about which studies should be included? They were chopped down into a stub. By changing the title, I believe we were able to keep the content without the edit wars. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, I've been dealing with this article for ages, and the mental health effects on abortion for far longer than that. One of the studies being cited now deals with abortion in the 30 minutes prior to having received one. Another study had only 14 participants - which makes it's sampling statistically insignificant. Plus, many of the studies are preliminary. Having a long list makes it seem as though these conditions are real, permanent, and one can suffer from all of them. This is not responsible of us. Please do not change this article until there is consensus.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not about what's true. It's what can be verified. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I can "verify" just about anything. Your comment doesn't make sense.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Medication literature lists possible side-effects that often include death and impotence, yet people don't consider that irresponsible; they know it's just a list of possibilities and they still end up taking the medication. However I do agree that the list isn't really necessary, and a summary prose is fine. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:57, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

I ran out of my 3RR so I won't stop you. However, I want to note that User:Equazcion, User:Kuronue, User:Andrew c and I had an agreement about moving the article to cover a lighter subject. миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The title needs to be changed

The title need to be changed to "Mental Health and Abortion." The current title is unacceptable.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, why? миражinred (speak, my child...) 04:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Mental health effects of abortion" overtly implies that abortion has an effect on mental health. Our sources say otherwise. The title should say either "Abortion and Mental Health" or "Controversial Claims on Mental Health and Abortion."--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed. And the sources "don't say otherwise." Whether you go to Planned Parenthood or David Reardon's website, it will say that abortion has some psychological effects such as depression and anxiety just to a different extent. миражinred (speak, my child...) 05:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The Planned Parenthood sources do not say "abortion" causes clinical depression. What the majority of longitudinal studies say is that abortion has no effect on mental health - in the sense that women may experience short-lived sadness, but there is no overall change in one's mental health that is caused by abortion.

On the other hand, the David Reardon website certainly wants to make the case that abortion causes a change in a woman's mental health. The argument you are making is a pro-life one.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 05:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(5 ec's, and the argument you are making is a pro-choice one -- you've reworded the lead in a slanted way.) This isn't an issue of whether or not the title needs to be changed but on what this article should be about. If it's to present the possible mental health effects of abortion, the current title is fine. IronAngel evidently would like the article to be about something else entirely. If anyone else feels this way, please speak up. Also, this lead paragraph doesn't sound nearly as neutral is the previous version, and I think you're the only one who had a problem with it. For the current purpose of the article, barring another title change, the other lead was better so I'm reverting that. Just a heads-up. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:07, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

You can't discredit me because you think I am pro-life. миражinred (speak, my child...) 05:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, hey, hey... let's try to focus on content and not any editor's POV. Everybody has a POV, and as long as we adhere to policy, that shouldn't be a problem. To be fair, Alice started this sub-section to discuss the title. I think it merits discussion. I also have to agree that the general position is that abortion has no implicit effect on mental health. While there are certainly a wide range of understandable emotional responses to abortion, these do not necessarily constitute an effect on mental health. I support the change to "Abortion and Mental Health" because the current title does expressly imply that abortion has an effect. Using "and" seems much more preferable as it has almost no POV. I believe Andrew has also expressed support for this title. Phyesalis (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this is just ignorance on my part, but what exactly is the difference between an "emotional response" and a "mental effect"? That seems like a very thin line to me, if any line exists at all. Equazcion •✗/C • 06:21, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

The article's title isn't "Mental effects of abortion" but "Mental health effects" - for example, your pet dies, you feel sad, feeling sad isn't a mental health effect because sad isn't a state of good or bad health, it's an emotional response. Now if you became chronically depressed, then it would have effected your mental health and might require some kind of mental health attention (therapy or medication). It's kind of like the difference between weather and climate. Phyesalis (talk) 07:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I'm for "abortion and mental health" then. Although it doesn't sound perfect to me, I don't have anything better in mind. Equazcion •✗/C • 07:55, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

I like "abortion and mental health" as well. MastCell 21:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Lead section

I don't think not assuming anyone participating in this discussion at this time is pro-life. What I'm suggesting is that you are making Reardon's case for him, instead of looking at the metadata, and evidence from reliable sources such as the APA and the American Surgeon General.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 15:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you need to stop using your perceptions of people's political views as an excuse to act against consensus and edit war, Alice. You need to continue discussing here. You, and you alone, are causing us to fall into the old pattern. You need to stop, right now. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:01, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

You are missing my point entirely. There is no "old pattern." Please explain why you think you paragraph is more accurate, while mine - which sites the APA and the American Surgeon General is not. Also, it seems as though KillerChihuahua and Phyesalis are in partial or full agreement with me - so I am not alone.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 17:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The old pattern is the edit warring. You're acting as Strider did, only for the other side now. Your paragraph focuses on stating the positive and neutral effects first, and then that the negative effects haven't been proven to actually be effects. Have the positive and neutral ones been proven to be causally related? Why not just say all effects aren't proven, and that we're just stating the possibilities? If you want to provide sources, you may, it can only help. That doesn't mean the entire lead needs to be changed. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:43, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Please do not compare me to Strider. I was always civil and respectful of her. Not only I, but several other editors worked hard to take out the original research, and misrepresentation of the facts that Strider tirelessly worked to put into the article (please read the archives). I have to continue to disagree with your lead because it misrepresents data and (unintentionally) verges on the political debate instead of the medical one. The APA and the Surgeon General are strong indications that your lead is simply not correct, and also contains some (completely unintentional) original research and editorializing.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, have the positive and neutral effects been proven to be causally related? Your lead separates the two types of effects as if one has been proven more than the other. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:57, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Are we disagreeing over the lead or the title? As for the title, I now support moving the article to "abortion and mental health." However, I strongly prefer Equazcion's lead which had a consensus. миражinred (speak, my child...) 18:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

We're disagreeing over the lead now, apparently. I've changed it once again, basically blanking it and simply stating that nothing has thus far been proved. I hope that can suffice. Alice, if you feel there's something inaccurate about this new version, please state here what the inaccuracies are and we'll all try to correct them. Equazcion •✗/C • 18:21, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Also did the move to "abortion and mental health" as there didn't seem to be any objection to that anymore. Equazcion •✗/C • 18:34, 19 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Consensus

There has been some great work done on this article. I think a round of applause for all involved is in order. We took a fairly contentious article to a consensually agreed upon stub, to a broader perspective article in a very short period of time. A number of editors were bold, and the discussion has remained civil. I'd like to suggest that we take a step back and discuss the handling of the lead, as well as what else we might like to include in the article.

Personally, I think it would be good to discuss issues related to pre-abortion counseling. And I have some issues with the wording of the opening paragraph that I think we should hash out. "It is currently unknown" - sounds like there's equally weighted evidence for and against a distinct causal relationship - while the majority of evidence suggest neutral or positive effects in women without pre-existing confounding conditions and that of those who do have confounding effects, the percentage of those who experience long-term negative mental health effects is relatively small. Perhaps if we could get a few lines about what people like and dislike about the lead, we could focus on some key issues holistically? Phyesalis (talk) 23:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to expansion as long as it doesn't turn into another revert war. I suggest we work on a draft copy of the lead here on the talk page or on a separate sub-page. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:00, 20 Jan 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Good idea. Phyesalis (talk) 01:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion is that we keep the Surgeon General information and the APA information in the lead that was deleted early today. These seem to be significant statements by significant Governmental and Academic institutions.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 04:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the "suggestion". Equazcion •✗/C • 05:44, 20 Jan 2008 (UTC)

I'm finding it difficult to remain civil here. There are certain times on Misplaced Pages when I really wish it was okay to call someone a moron. I've never felt that more than I do now. I'm unwatching this page, and I hope you can all find a way to deal with this on your own. Enjoy. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:47, 20 Jan 2008 (UTC)

After doing so much work to improve the page, it's sad to hear that you will not be contributing anymore. I think we need more discussion before making any more bold edits. миражinred (speak, my child...) 05:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I like User:Phyesalis's suggestions and I agree with her comments. However, it seems like IronAngelAlice's edits are slanting too much to the other side. It just seems like too much "slap in the face" to readers to assert one POV and not letting the facts speak for itself. The article already says that PAS is not recognized by major associations, that it is heavily criticized, and mentions the positive and the neutral feelings observed after abortion. Isn't this enough? миражinred (speak, my child...) 05:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That's funny, Equazcion, I feel the same way. Particularly since (comparatively) you are an interloper to this subject. What I and MastCell have found especially vexing about this topic is the notion that truth and accuracy are dependent upon the notion of "balance." This leads to original research and editorializing. When editing this topic and the David Reardon page, MastCell came upon a great article by Chris Mooney. The article is linked to from the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view page. The external link is here: http://cjrarchives.org/issues/2004/6/mooney-science.asp I hope you do check it out. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 06:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the phrase of the day is "User talk pages" (and to be fair, I'm not on any high horse, I'm as prone to getting tangled up as the next good faith editor - I just happen to have come in on the end of this particular dance). I have to agree with the point about truth and balance, particularly when backed up by R and V sources. The point about needing more discussion before making the same changes again is also a good point - which is why I suggest we take it to the mock-up per E above. What if we try to stick to the WP:BRD cycle and agree that we won't revert back to something, only revert forward (that is to change B, not back to A unless by consensus, but to a new edit C) and that these kind of evolving edits on the mock-up are to be taken as GF edits?

Actually, that is what I suggest we do after we all step back for a day. I think things are just a bit too tense right now. Phyesalis (talk) 06:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Structure for History of Debate & Evidence

We were previously stubbing this down to just PAS and suddenly it is back to a clumsy cut-and-paste of discredited materials from previous versions with virtually no recognition of the fact that MOST experts agree that there are negative mental health effects associated with and arising from abortion. Even sadness is a mental health effect. THe controversy is over if, when and how often the mental health effects are so serious that they should be called a mental illness. See Wilmouth's summary:

In 1992, the Journal of Social Issues dedicated an entire issue to research relating to the psychological effects of elective abortion. In an overview of the contributors papers the editor, Dr. Gregory Wilmoth, concluded: "There is now virtually no disagreement among researchers that some women experience negative psychological reactions postabortion. Instead the disagreement concerns the following: (1) The prevalence of women who have these experiences . . . , (2) The severity of these negative reactions . . . , (3) The definition of what severity of negative reactions constitutes a public health or mental health problem . . . , (4) The classification of severe reactions . . . "

The whole intro is now propaganda, and misleading, and simply wrong. It is simply not true that "the American Psychological Association (APA) and Surgeon General of the United States have claimed that abortion does not cause changes in mental health." Koop said there was insufficient data from which to draw conclusions....fare different than does "not cause changes in mental health." Even the APA does not make such an absurd claim. The 1990 Adler article instead acknowledges that abortion has very significant emotional effects but concludes that for the MAJORITY of women it is tolerated well, which implicitliy reflects the admission that for a minority of women it is not tolerated well.

I think the intro should simply outline that this is an issue of controversy, then give a history of major events in the controversy, followed by a summary of major symptoms associated with abortion and the related studies. This structure will make it easy for editors to add new material in an appropriate place.--Strider12 (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

What This Article Is About

This article, as redefined by the moves I and several others have enacted recently, is no longer "OMG abortion doesn't have any effect on people how dare you say it does" (extreme pro-choice) versus "OMG STFU PAS!!!" (extreme pro-life). It's also not about listing all the potential effects of abortion upon mental health, as stated above. It's about listing all the notable, verifiable potential effects abortion has upon mental health, by citing them to various studies, and explaining them a little so that people can learn about them. That said, I expect every statement in this article to be sourced. If we source everything and include everything that's notable there shouldn't BE an accusation of bias - it should simply report what group X has found in study Y and so forth. When studies contradict, simply write "group X has found that Y, but group Z has found Q" and leave it be. And for chirssakes, stop strawmaning people based on their supposed political affiliations and AGF! Kuronue | Talk 18:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Thank you. I think we should go back to the version as it was last night and continue with our hard-won decision to move forward civilly and harmoniously by working from a communal mock-up. I've reverted the page once today, and in a bid for harmony, I'm not going to revert it again (today). Thoughts? Phyesalis (talk) 18:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely like yesterday's version better. I'm getting fed up also and considering unwatching this page. миражinred (speak, my child...) 19:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

NO! Please, I think this is getting out of hand. We lost E yesterday. I think if we can't move forward on this, quickly, we should consider some form of formal intervention. Phyesalis (talk) 20:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Kuronue that NPOV can be easily achieved by simply requiring appropriate cites to support statements and generally respecting people's contributions instead of just deleting them. I also agree with the places Kuronue indicated cites are needed. Obviously, I think the new structure is more straight forward and informative because it avoids mixing sources which has freqeuntly turned into original research and synthesis.--Strider12 (talk) 20:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. While I supported the move, looking at the article right now as opposed to when it was entitled "post-abortion syndrome", there's been a major drop in quality. From the introduction on, it's less readable, more opaque, and even downright wrong and misleading (no negative effects have been demonstrated because of the difficulty of studying them? Really?) It's been filled with weasel words and the actual WP:WEIGHT of views has been obscured. We've gone back to having editors select their favorite studies from the primary literature. The ridiculous WP:OR spin and misrepresentation of Fergusson's article has made a triumphant return. We're back to the argument that anything published in a journal should be regurgitated, devoid of secondary-source context (more "purging" accusations") Hopefully this is just a temporary growing pain, but I'll be honest: I'm not sure a good article can be written so long as Strider12 is active and her behavior remains unimproved. MastCell 20:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you MastCell, and tried hard to stop the topic change. New editors to this topic had no idea what they were getting us all into. Indeed, they had very little knowledge about topic.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 00:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I have posted on her talk to see if we can discuss what are clearly editor issues, there. It seems there's a pretty good consensus here as to what the article is about and what is neutral. Anyone up for reverting it back and getting it protected while we work this out? --Phyesalis (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree to that.--IronAngelAlice (talk) 00:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Well said, MastCell. миражinred (speak, my child...) 01:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The new lead "Research upon the relationship between abortion and mental health indicates that abortion is usually associated with positive or neutral effects on mental health" is not supported, and is more POV pushing. Am I reading MastCell above as suggesting that the Fergusson study should be blanked? It's the best study available!

The use of peer reviewed studies is recommended by Misplaced Pages policy. The warnings against the use of primary sources refers to first hand accounts, like eye witness reports, and recommends the use of reliable "secondary sources" such as a scholar's peer reviewed study of primary sources. In this case, the raw data examined by Fergusson is the primary source and anyone trying to publish material from the raw data would engaging in original research. But Fergusson is analyzing a copious amount of data, interpreting it within the framework of other data and studies, and his peer reviewed paper is definitely a reliable source and "secondary" in that it is not the raw data of an eyewitness acount, a court record, etc. It is a notable, verifiable, intepretation of primary data by a scholar whose work has been peer reviewed and accepted as reliable.

Furthermore, I too am tired of people arguing that THEY alone know where the WEIGHT of this article belongs, especially when they ignore all the studies and reviews I have identified and insist that the 1990 Adler (APA) review and 1992 Stotland's commentary--because they are referenced by Bazelon and Mooney--are the sole determiners of weight. These very date references are not made more relevent just because biased reporters continue to mention them while ignoring Fergusson and other experts.--Strider12 (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC) --Strider12 (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fergusson: best available study according to whom? What reliable source calls it the best available study (besides Strider12)? Why feature it over the dozens of other studies which reach conclusions less Strider-friendly? As to WP:WEIGHT, the consensus view is documented by secondary sources including the relevant expert bodies (American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association), the DSM-IV, review articles from top-tier medical journals, and mainstream-media pieces from the New York Times Magazine and PBS. Please stop dragging us in circles by claiming it's "only" this or that source supporting the consensus. MastCell 05:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, here is a source where Fergusson asserts (rightly) that this is the best study done to date. It is best, as you well know, because it is a prospective study that has many pre-preganncy measures, and it has virtually no drop out. It is exactly the type of study Koop recommended would need to be done. It still has many limitations in that it was not designed to study specifically abortion and mental health but is a general study of the population, so some data that would be good to have is not there...at least yet, as Fergusson has stated his intention to ask women additional questions to probe deeper. The fact that this is the best study is also underscored by the fact that after it was published the APA pulled their abortion/mental health web page due to Fergusson's criticisms and set up the Task Force. Clearly this study is far better than any of the half dozen conducted by Russo and Majors. But again, instead of just allowing the evidence to speak for itself, you engage in or defend, the blanking of key studies. Please stop ignoring my evidence that the consensus is not what you say it is. All the sources listed above have as much weight...and arguably more, than a 16 year old commentary and an 18 year old APA position paper. The fact that mainstream media still rely on these old standbys proves only what the consensus is among pro-choice journalists, it tells us nothing about the consensus of experts doing research in the field.--Strider12 (talk) 18:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Fergusson stated that his own study is "probably the best", which is understandable. I feel the same way about the work I publish. Do you have a source for your frequent claim that the APA site was pulled "in response to Fergusson's study"? In any case, if his study is solid enough to overturn the consensus view, then that will all be clear when the APA issues its new summary of the evidence. Which we will incorporate here. Until then, I don't see much new or relevatory sourcing; just the same old editorial posturing. MastCell 19:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Weight Should Not Be An Excuse to Blank Verifiable Material

A frequently raised excuse for blanking material has been that inclusion of material supporting a veiw that abortion has mental health effects runs counter to the WEIGHT of expert opinion. My arguments now archived, that this is a distorted view of the WEIGHT, have not been argued and no one has produced new evidence that this claim rests on more than the 1990 Adler (APA) review and 1992 Stotland's commentary. Just because these old sources are repeatedly cited, most recently by Grimes, Bazelon, and Moody, doesn't mean they really reflect the WEIGHT of evidence nor the weight of expert opinions, and all the sources I have cited to the contrary are repeatedly being cut simply because they demonstrate that this deniers view does not define the WEIGHT of evidence or opinion.

What I find especially disingenuous about the WEIGHT argument is that it's not like we are dealing with a flat-earth theory for which supporters cannot cite a single peer-reviewed study. We are talking about an issue that is a hotly contested academic issue with lots of peer reviewed studies and experts to draw on. Insisting that one side has the WEIGHT is ridiculous and just an excuse to censor material and opinions from the other side. We should simply allow and encourage the use of as many peer reviewed sources as editors wish to bring to the table, instead of sifting them to fit one POV.--Strider12 (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT is a fundamental, inalterable policy on Misplaced Pages. Views are detailed in the context of, and in proportion to, their representation among experts in the field. Insisting that the conflicting "sides" are equally supported in the view of experts in the field is ludicrous, and easily disproven with the sources cited. You fixate on peer review as a means of making an end-run around this fundamental policy and giving extra weight to your POV. You also fixate on the idea that once something is published in a peer-reviewed journal it can never be removed or contextualized. It's just not going to fly on Misplaced Pages. MastCell 05:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Ir is also uncontested that you are relying on two expert opinions (1) APA 1990 Adler, and (2) Stotland which are old cites that just get repeated by advocacy journalists like Bazelone and Mooney, and are elevating these sources to the Gospel of WEIGHT. You don't just ignore that I have previously put forward many other sources and experts, a partial list below, you actively work to purge them from the article so as to disguise the FACT that the WEIGHT is not as you say it is.

• Thorp JM, Hartmann KE, Shadigian E. Long-Term Physical and Psychological Health Consequences of Induced Abortion: Review of the Evidence. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey 2003, 58(1):67-79. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strider12 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
• Elizabeth Ring-Cassidy, Ian Gentles. Womens's Health After Abortion. 2002
• Coleman, P. K., Reardon, D. C., Strahan, T., & Cougle, J. (2005). The psychology of abortion: A review and suggestions for future research. Psychology and Health, 20, 237-271. (Coleman is the most published researcher in the field of abortion and mental health)
• Coleman PK. Induced Abortion and Increased Risk of Substance Abuse: A Review of the Evidence, Current Women’s Health Reviews, 2005, 1, 21-34.
• Coleman, PK. The Uniquely Destructive Psychological Experience of Elective Abortion: Comparisons with Other Forms of Perinatal Loss and Delivery of an Unintended Pregnancy, Association for Interdisciplinary Research in Values and Social Change. Vol. 17, No. 6 Fall 2004
• Thomas Strahan, Detrimental Effects of Abortion: An Annotated Bibliography With Commentary. 2001
• E. Joanne Anegelo. Psychiatric Sequelae of Abortion: The Many Faces of Post-Abortion Grief Linacre Quarterly, 59:69-80, May, 1992
• Theresa Burke. Forbidden Grief. 2002.
• Candace Du Puy,Dana Dovitch The Healing Choice: Your Guide to Emotional Recovery After an Abortion

and additional pro-choice advocates such as Fogel, Wilmouth, Soderberg, Fergusson, Zimmerman and many others who believe abortion should be readily available but also insist that it has significant mental health risks.

WEIGHT should not be dictated by one or two editors, it should be allowed to be SHOWN by the INCLUSION of evidence and expert opinions. If my recommended policy were followed, it would be evident in an article on the earth that there are NO peer reviewed studies supporting a flat earth argument, so the standard applies. Also, you are misrepresenting the distinction between primary sources and secondary sources. Peer Reviewed articles of the type we are talking about are SECONDARY SOURCES which analyze, intepret, and synthesize primary sources (like the NLSY data set) and that anlaysis is what it peer reviewed for reliability. This is why these sources are Most FAvored by Misplaced Pages policy. More below.--Strider12 (talk) 14:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Integration of lede content, removal of uncited content

The lede was a poor repetition of the material given in the first few sections. It actually repeated certain sections word-for-word, which greatly impedes the readability of the article. I integrated the content which was not duplicated into the article, and replaced the lede with a single, neutral sentence. The article is short enough that the sections can speak for themselves. If we want to rebuild the lede I suggest we do it at Talk rather than having all those changes "go live".

Also, I removed a good deal of content that was unsourced, both from the promote-PAS and debunk-PAS sides. In an article on a topic as heated as abortion, we really need to be certain we follow WP:V to the letter. Photouploaded (talk) 23:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleting the first paragraph is not the way to proceed. We do need to have a lead paragraph. Let's work on taking out any repetition, but keep the gist of the paragraph. --IronAngelAlice (talk) 23:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit summary

I just want to point out that in this edit summary, I did not intend to state that no negative effects can possibly exist, ever, at all. I have not interviewed every single person who has ever had an abortion; I cannot say. My intention was to illustrate that this so-called syndrome, since it is not recognized by any major medical body as legitimate, should not be categorized in such a way that the article indicates that this "syndrome" is considered a "negative effect". With the lack of evidence for this "syndrome", it is best to leave the discussion of the concept under its own self-titled header. Photouploaded (talk) 02:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the article looks better having a heading to cover the 'opposite' opinion, but taking account of what you say, I've put 'alleged' in the heading. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 09:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Editing Policy to Avoid Edit Warring

Much of the edit warring over this article revolves around disagreements over editing policy and the argument about what sources should be allowed and how WEIGHT is to be determined. I would ask editors to discuss, refine, and agree to a policy that properly interprets Misplaced Pages policy.

1. I agree the scope of the article on abortion and mental health (and/or "post-abortion syndrome) is regarding both the controversy of this issue and the evidence for or against the idea that abortion has negative mental health consequences.

2. I agree that WEIGHT is composed of two elements: facts and expert opinion. From this it follows that facts should never be deleted because the conflict with the opinions of some experts. Secondly, the opinions of a few experts should not be treated as the "Gospel of WEIGHT" for the purpose of excluding the opinion of experts who disagree.

3. I agree with Misplaced Pages policy that:

In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.

4: I agree that peer reviewed studies are "reliable secondary sources" in that they provide a synthesis and analyses of "primary sources" (including raw data and eyewitness accounts), and as the methods and analyses have been reviewed determined to be reliable by academic peers they should be accepted as reliable sources by Misplaced Pages editors.

5. For the reasons explained above, I agree that all peer reviewed material shall always be treated as verifiable material and that while entries relating to peer reviewed studies may be edited for accuracy, they should not be deleted since they represent the facts which shall help to demonstrate the where the WEIGHT of evidence lies.

6. I agree that in general, for the sake of brevity and to avoid giving undue weight to any single source, it would be best for each source should be used and described only once.

7. I agree that any general conclusions, whether by an expert, team of experts, or from a media source, such as "Abortion trauma is a myth" shall always be attributed in the text (not just the footnote) to the party making the generalization.

8. I agree with Misplaced Pages policy that the authors of peer reviewed studies on abortion and mental health should be recognized as established experts in the field and that statements made by these experts may be quoted or accurately summarized in the article if approriately attributed to the expert in the text.

9. I agree with the commonly held view of Misplaced Pages editors that articles in the popular press should not be relied upon as sources of fact in preference to the peer reviewed studies themselves. Referance to articles in the popular press, however, should be allowed if properly identified as such in the text (not just the footnotes) in order to document the controversies surrounding this issue.

10. I agree that when I see an entry by another editor which seems to "cherry pick" only facts that seem to promote a POV that is not fully supported by the source, the solution is not to delete the contribution but rather to add additional material or clarifications from the source so as to accurately represent the source in a more balanced NPOV fashion.

I believe it would be very helpful if we could arrive at some objective standards for ensuring that the verifiable material and the contributions of editors will no longer be just constantly deleted. If you wish to discuss and help to edit this proposed policy, please do so at a page I have setup for that purpose: Proposed Editing Policy AgreementStrider12 (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors have already agreed upon community standards for editing set forth in our policies and guidelines. It is unreasonable to expect editors to agree to a Ten Commandments of Editing This Particular Article. Photouploaded (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is people aren't following PG policy and are deleting verifiable material. Regarding PAS section, we previously agreed to keep it short. That it describes the abortion-trauma allegation and is not recognized in DSM and is considered a political ploy. All the other material should go elsewhere...and most of it already is elsewhere. Redundant.--Strider12 (talk) 15:13, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the problem is that no amount of outside input can convince you that your understanding of policy is flawed. There is no policy against removing even verifiable material if it is irrelevant, misleadingly presented, or abused to further an original synthesis or provide undue weight. WP:V says as much in its opening: "Jointly, these policies (WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV) determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another." We don't need new policies for this page; we need for you to follow the existing ones. MastCell 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Lopsided?

OK, Photouploaded, why the lopsided tag? What's the issue and let's see if we can addess it. --Phyesalis (talk) 15:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I misread the sentence. I have removed the tag. Thanks for checking in. Photouploaded (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem, I thought it was odd, so I figured I'd just ask. Thanks for the fast response! --Phyesalis (talk) 16:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I'm going to be posting some sources so we can get some issues ironed out:

• Guttmacher --Phyesalis (talk) 15:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

1. Wilmoth G. Abortion, Public Health Policy, and Informed Consent Legislation. J Social Issues, 48(3):1-17 (1992).

• Start-Class Abortion articles
• Unknown-importance Abortion articles
• WikiProject Abortion articles