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Ukraine B‑class Top‑importance

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Normanist/Antinormanist debate

This article could do with a little polishing... Scandinavian settled and Kyivan Rus was founded way before Christianity was accepted from Constantinople in 988 by Kievan Rus prince Volodymyr. Geraldo

I'd say it needs a lot of polishing, because:

• The foundation by the Scandinavians is only a one from three or more ethnological theories explaining the origin of Kievan Rus and Ukrainians (at least I was tought so in Ukrainian university);
• Like Geraldo says, adopting a Christianity was definitely not a starting point for Kievan Rus statehood. Kiev became a capital of Duchy when still being Pagan, and few Kievan Dukes before Volodymyr are known by their political and military deeds.

So let's go off West-centrical position. I`m looking forward to edit&widen Ukraine`s historical stuff radically, but it would take a lot of time since I don`t specialize in history. --AlexPU 17:33, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ukrainians in Moldova

According to CIA factbook 2005 estimate (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/md.html) out of Moldova's population of 4,455,421 , there are 13.8 % of ethnic Ukrainians. This gives us 614 848 Ukrainins... (The number includes Ukrainians in Transnistria where they make up more than 25 % of the population). (Fisenko 05:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC))

Let's use the latest officially available data. For Moldova there's the 2004 census:

• Moldova, excluding Transnistria : 283,000 (8,4%)
• Transnistria: 162,000 (28%)
• Moldova: 445,000

bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 14:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

CIA factbook is a very credible source. In this particular case I would consider CIA to be more neutral than Moldavian government. (Fisenko 04:14, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC))

CIA factbook may be a very credible source, but it still uses the old data from the 1989 census. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 07:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Picture for Infobox

Please note that contrary to a common beleif, Khrushchev is not an ethnical Ukrainian. See his article and his talk page. The picture needs to be modified. --Irpen 00:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. Replaced by Korolyov of the same time. --Irpen 03:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Скорочення

Не можна скорочувати Леся Українка, як Л Українка L. Ukrainka, тому шо це її псевдо. Варто вказати повне ім'я.

We musn't cut Lesya Ukrainka as L. Ukrainka, because it's her anonym. Boduni (talk) 10:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainians in Germany

I've heard alot of Ukrainians reside in Germany; however no numbers are given for Ukrainians in Germany here.

rest of the Russians

Ukrainians used to be part of the Old Russian stock up to the 14th century. However, long history of separation and foreign influences have perceptibly reshaped their ethnolinguistic identity splitting them from the rest of Russians.

What does this mean? Should be removed/reworded if noone can explainIlya K 10:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I've improved the wording, but I think it's still over-generalized to the point of inaccuracy. Anyone know more about this? —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 17:09 Z

Actually all the people of former Kievan Rus refered to themselves as Rus'kie and their homeland modern Ukraine, Belarus and Europea Russia as Rus even as late as the 17th century (the term is still in use, name Rossiya (Latin version of Rus) was only popuralized by Peter the Grear). In English language it is called Kievan Russia and Rus' people are called as Russians even in those times in either English or Russian. The only people who are trying to change it recently are often nationalist Ukrainian and Polish academics. Fisenko 20:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

In modern English, Rus’ is not the same as Russia, and I think Rus’kie a thousand years ago is not the same asRusskiye or Rossiyskiye today (but I don't speak Russian). I guess your nationalist conspiracy is succeeding, because "Kievan Rus" outnumbers "Kievan Russia" in Google results by a hundred to one. Welcome to the twenty-first century. —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 21:14 Z

The word Rossiyskiye in Russian language applies only to things not to people. The term Rossiyane is only used by politically correct government officials. Majority of Russians always called themselves (and still do) Ruskiye exacly like majoity of Ukrainains called themselves between 11th and 18th centuries. Nobody denies Ukrainians are a separate nation today, however, they didn't existed as a separate nation in the middle-ages. PS I wouldn't call it "conspiracy" but rather a trend or fashion. Fisenko 21:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough; sorry if my reply sounded testy. In this sense, neither Belarusians, Russians nor Ukrainians existed as separate nations a thousand years ago, although I understand there were at least regional linguistic differences by then.

I think the words Russkiye and Rusyny were used in much the same fashion, simply to refer to "our people", and of course were sometimes adopted to support national and political points of view. But as far back as the late 1700s the Austrians used Ruthenen to refer to East Slavs who called themselves Rusyny and were obviously different from Russians. The definition of nationality has more to do with politics and self-identification than it does with genetics or linguistics anyway, and today it's polite not to call Ukrainians Russians, nor Russians Ruthenians. Likewise, we (try to) avoid bad feelings by referring to Kievan Rus, and not Russia. I don't see anything wrong with it, if we can leave it at that and get on with contributing to the Misplaced Pages. —Michael Z. 2005-11-12 22:43 Z

Yushchenko in the pic

Looks for me like orange propaganda and POV. It is not politically neutral to place this one-year president among the greatest Ukrainians, since he is highly disputed in the own country and his achievements so far are doubtful. Why was Sergey Korolyov removed?? He is an everywhere respected person and his achievements for the humanity are clear and undisputed.

I suggest to restore the old pic and keep Misplaced Pages free of political bias and subjecitve preferences. Voyevoda 09:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yushchenko has the advantage that he is possibly the most-recognized Ukrainian in English-speaking countries today, but I agree that Korolyov is more neutral and probably lasting figure. —Michael Z. 2006-01-17 18:30 Z

I think currently Yushchenko is undoubtedly the most recognizable Ukrainian today (possibly just behind Shevchenko) and despite accusations of his progress that kind of popularity should not go unrewarded. This Misplaced Pages entry should reflect its current status, not be some museum for old Soviet relics! (unsigned)

We need some balance and diversity here with respect to different times and different fields. The modern concept of the nation was born in the 19th century and it seems reasonable to not go any further back. I also doubt Bohdan Khmelnytsky, a notable figure for wure, would be very recognizable and someof his actions ring unpleasantly to our Western neighbors. Taras Shevchenko tops the list without a doubt. Lesya Ukrainka seems the most notable Ukrainian woman. We need one modern very recognizable person, and Andriy Shevchenko (currently) or Ruslana are the obvious choices. I would think that now Shevchenko is the most recognizable but Ruslana's fans may disagree. Having a scientist as a fourth figure seems a good choice for a complete diversity. Besides, it is a good idea to have a person who attained notability in the 20th century (we have 19th and 21st already). To call Korolyov a Soviet relic is an outright nonsense. There is no need to politicize this. Any president is recognizable. I don't see many presidents in other ethnicities' articles. --Irpen 20:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

How about someone of Ukrainian ancestry from outside of Ukraine? Off the top of my head I can think of astronaut Roberta Bondar, current Alberta premier Ed Stelmach, and both William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy. I don't think any of these could be considered controversial in a political way, although perhaps the consensus is to only feature Ukrainians born in Ukraine? --Charlene 00:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was not to move this page --Lox (t,c) 16:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainians → Ukrainian people : To follow pattern used for many other articles on peoples.

Voting

Please add  * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~"

• Oppose- "Ukrainian people" seems ambiguous. Could mean equally Ukrainians or citizens of Ukraine. OTOH do not see any real benefit of renaming the article (other than the pleasure of consistency with another article that you have renamed :-( --_Lysy 21:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose—the large majority of articles in category:Ethnic groups in Europe follow the same simple noun form as "Ukrainians", and there doesn't seem to be any advantage to the other form. —Michael Z. 2006-01-18 22:33 Z
• Oppose no need for "people" as unlike "English", "Ukranians" can not be mistaken for Ukranian language. --Philip Baird Shearer 01:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Number of Ukrainians

Dear User:Lysy 47,425,336 is the number of people living in Ukraine and 77.8 % of them are ethnic Ukrainians (subject of this article) which adds up to about 36,000,000 ethnic Ukrainians living in Ukraine. Reference: CIA -- The World Factbook -- Ukraine Fisenko 02:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainians in Italy and Portugal

Are you serious about 500 000 Ukrainians in Italy and 300 000 in Portugal ?

These numbers seem incredibly high. Obviously there is much bigger Ukrainian communities in Germany, Poland and USA.

If anything these includes all the temprorary guest workers from Ukraine to ever visit these countries (still I doubt the numbers) and defenetly not the numbers of permanent residents of Ukrainian ethnic origin in these countries. Fisenko 05:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This data on labor migration. Probably they aproximate, but their gives "World congress of ukrainians". Askold Lozinskiy, President of the congress, confirms that this numeral (500 000 in Italy and 300 000 in Portugal) Ukrainians in that moment (2003) in these country. I suppose these numbers can be published with note that data is aproximate.

Here is else reference . On calculation Ministry of Labour overseas constantly work more than 3 million people Ukraines. Of them 500,000 legal (Including in Portugals 80,000). --Yakudza 23:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Temprorary workers, especially illegal, are very hard to count let's stick to the numbers of Ukrainian diasporas (permanent residents) abroad. Fisenko 16:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Khazars and Goths in Ukraine

1) Only Khazar upper class and nobility converted to Judaism the majority of population remain pagan or Christian. 2)Khazars did not remain in Ukraine and Jewish Diaspora was virtually no-existent in Ukraine until the Ashkenazi Jews started to settle in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1500s. Fisenko 12:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I find it amusing that Ukrainians are said to be descendants of Goths and Varangians. Even though Ostrogoths settled north of Crimea, they took off long, long before Ukrainians as a distinct nation started to emerge. Varangians were Scandinavian mercinaries in Kievan Rus', and I don't think they arrived in such numbers as to have any effect on the genetic "composition" of present-day Ukrainians. Both these claims need to be supported by some solid evidence rather than someone's imagination. 134.220.203.115 14:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the article again. It never said that Ukrainians are descendants of Goths and Varangians. On the opposite it implicidly states that Ukrainian origins are overwhelmingly Slavic while non-Slavic nomads who mostly lived in the steppes of southern Ukraine had little influence on the ancestors of modern Ukrainians Fisenko 14:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is the bit: "Ukrainians are the descendants of several peoples who inhabited the vast area extending from north of the Black Sea to the borders of Russia, Poland, Moldova, Belarus and Slovakia. These people included numerous nomadic tribes such as Persian-speaking Scythians and Sarmatians; Germanic-speaking Goths and Varangians" :-))) By the way, if the Slavs and the non-Slavic nomads lived side by side, how can you be sure they did not inter-marry? 84.67.221.237 02:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Add Ruslana in the picture with famous Ukrainians!

Please add Ruslana in the picture with famous Ukrainians. This is not fair! She deserves it more than the football player!!!!!!!!!!!!

I added Ruslana 2 times in the picture but someone removed it!

Ruslana is much famous than the 4 mens from the picture!! Do you have someting against womans?????

Who thinks that Shevcenko is much famous than Ruslana is crazy!!!!!!!!!!--Alexandru Busa 16:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem may be that putting her in over and over and over again may appear to some to be a bit fanboyish. She's also nowhere near as notable as Shevchenko; believe it or not, she's virtually unknown outside of Europe, and even in Europe she's considered by many to be a one-hit wonder. Misplaced Pages should be an encyclopedia, not a slave to what's hot in pop culture right this exact minute. It would be a bit like putting Barbi Benton (look her up) as an example of a notable American. --Charlene.fic 09:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainians in Brazil

I've edited the figure for Ukrainians in Brazil to 550,000 per the reference given. There is no evidence for a figure of 1,050,000. --Charlene.fic 04:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Just to inform you that User:200.206.210.76 (see: contributions) has been vandalizing other pages by inflating similar numbers. Please free to revert, after confirmation. Poeticbent 05:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the Sneaky Stats Vandal. He's been around for a long time, and unfortunately, he's now using a dynamic IP address. Please block for a few days on sight, and add his IP to the list at the link above. —Michael Z. 2006-12-12 06:45 Z

Italic text

And a year later he's back at it! --Charlene 20:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Isnt this article supposed to be about ethnic Ukrainians??

How could you not place Nestor Makhno in the image?

A great man, an honest man. A hero of many, and were the first to practicaly try to creat anarchism. M.V.E.i. 19:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I propose to enter Nestor Makhno instead of Andriy Shevchenko. First, there are license problems with Andriy Shevchenko. Second, Andriy Shevchenko is a good footbaler but he's not the greatest in the world. I mean, there were greater Ukrainian players during the Soviet time. The trick is to enter people who are unique, special, irreplacable in the history pages. M.V.E.i. 19:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Makhno should be in the image, but Andriy Shevchenko must stay.. he is defenetly a well known football player. I believe that we can remove Vladislav Gorodetsky (He is part Polish..) and replace him with Shevchenko and remove Leonid Kadeniuk and replace him with Pavel Popovich (more important than Kadeniuk.) —dima/talk/ 00:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree to that. Give me a few minutes to do that change please. M.V.E.i. 09:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no way we can remove Andriy Shevchenko, he is probably today's the best known Ukrainian. Here is what I propose.

• T. Shevchenko
• L. Ukrainka
• B. Khmelnytsky
• A. Shevchenko
• P. Popovich
• S. Korolyov
• S. Timoshenko

...And one more. I won't make any edit until we have some agreement, what does everyone think? Bogdan 01:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

He is probably TODAYS, and the trick is to place those who are irriplacable not only tody but in the history pages. Anyway, since so much insist i will return him. I just love what DDima suggested. M.V.E.i. 09:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Popovich i cant put due to the fact we dont have a free image of him, and Makhno we cant not put due to his historical value. Except having Makhno instead of Popovich, as you can see what we have know fits yours proposal :-) I hope it means were near a concensus. M.V.E.i. 10:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We all due respect to Stephen Timoshenko, he is hardly recognizable. There are actually four modern Ukrainians with a good world-wide face recognition. Andriy Shevchenko, Ruslana and the Klitschko's. Shevchenko is probably the most recognizable. We can't have more than two modern faces. So, I vote Ruslana, because she is also a lady and a pretty one, with all due respects to the great boxers. --Irpen 10:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

He is very recognizable. In a few years Andriy Shevchenko wont be known by anybody, while Stephen Timoshenko will be remembered forever. Shure you wont see Timoshenko on the cover of a magazine as one of "top ten sexy man" today and all this celebrity idiotism, but he will always be remembered. I think the current image is the most perfect it can be. M.V.E.i. 10:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and please no controversial figures, Makhno, Bandera, Petliura, Antonov-Ovseyenko, Kuchma, Kravchuk, Yushchenko, Yulia Tymoshenko, Yanukovych, etc are all divisive enough. If we have room for an older figure, perhaps Skovoroda but remember to spread them by time. --Irpen 10:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Makhno is not controversial and dont compare him to them. He wanted a peasent free state, and he made the first ever attemp to create an anarchist state. He was unbribable. He represent the strong Ukrainian peasent. Someone above already stated he supports Makhno to be here. Dont belive the Soviet propogande about him because it's all lies. I read a huge number off books on him so i know. M.V.E.i. 11:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Please notice, since i decided to start improving the image i made alot of hard work. The licenses discription, improving the quality (if you'll notice on the previous image all the colour-images were low quality). You know why i started all that? Se we will have Makhno in the images. So please, lets keep him. An honest unique man, one of it's kind, with a rough destiny. M.V.E.i. 11:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Dude, calm down. You like him, I don't. Next thing is Yakudza or Hillock from uk-wiki coming here with the lecture that Petlura is also a good guy. Just cut the politics out of the template. --Irpen 11:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Makhno is not politics! Makhno is history, he represent's the cry of the peasent people for freedom. Pitlura is political, currupted, represents only nationalists, and eventually sold himself to the Poles and Germans and fought for them. M.V.E.i. 11:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You know? It's simple. Lets keep it the way it is for now, and see what others say. M.V.E.i. 11:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

How about this? Add Skovoroda and Kirponos, a great philosopher and a great war hero who all respect instead of Makhno and Timoshenko. I hope you don't mind Kirponos, do you? If in months or years we get a free image of Ruslana she will be in. --Irpen 11:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Skovoroda- YES. Kyrponos- NO. Ivan Franko should be included. Makhno and Mazepa- for sure.Galassi 11:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Dont compair Makhno to Mazzepa. Mazzepa is a creep. M.V.E.i. 12:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Makhno and Mazepa are divisive and not recognizable at all. But I can't imagine anyone having beef against Kirponos. --Irpen 12:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm against! Not recognizable, while Makhno is. And dont compare Makhno to Mazzepa! Mazzepa is a creep. M.V.E.i. 12:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I would imagine that for the Russians he is. Mazepa, however, is one of the most recognizeable Ukrainians and is unlike Makhno featured on Ukrainian banknotes. His legacy in Ukraine is just as much debated as that of Khmelnytsky, so his inclusion would be indeed divisive. Hillock65 16:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry i cant tell you you have history knowladge. I'm a Russian so ont teach me what Russians think of him. Makhno fought agains Petlura to. Why? He wanted an idnependent peasent state without a government. He has many fans in Russia, why? Till the end he didn't want to fight the reds due to the fact they have poor background. He was anti-racist and he had Ukrainians, Russians and Jews in his army. Mazzepa was a traitor, he fought for the Turks. M.V.E.i. 16:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

That Russians thought he was a traitor doesn't surprise me. If foreigners are to decide who of Ukrainians are traitors or not, maybe we shouldn't include Khmelnytsky for betraying the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, since that what Poles think about him. What about what other Ukrainian neighbours think? I am sure Germans, Romanians, Turks and Hungarians, just like Russians have their view on Ukrainian personalities — that doesn't mean that all that should be reflected in an encyclopaedia article. Hillock65 16:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You dont even know your own history. Betraid Poland? Shure! Be a slave for some Polish pan! I see you really miss those times when a Ukrainian was beatten by a Polish pan every day, and then the Russians gave him freedom! Have you ever read why the Ukrainians started a revolt against Poland?? Now have you read why they needed Russia? They would be all on sharp big stickes in their butts if the Poles would win them (it was one of the punish-ways used by the Poles). M.V.E.i. 19:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Now I like Irpen's idea. Ruslana+no politics. Makhno has huge political status. I also like the idea of two modern Ukrainians, Andriy Shevchenko and Ruslana sounds good to me. Bogdan 14:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I also think politics should be kept out of there. If there is a Soviet general featured, so should an UPA general too. Featuring Soviet generals is divisive, even though the majority fought in the Red Army a substantial number of Ukrainians didn't. The matter itself in the present-day Ukraine is not as clear-cut as some would hope and is subject to controversy. Let's not feature divisive personalities and let's concentrate on neutral non-divisive figures. Hillock65 16:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

UPA are traitors and German spyes, low people. There is no "controversy", only those who had grandpa's in the UPA try to show as if there is a place for a debate. M.V.E.i. 16:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There are up to several millions of Ukrainians, who think them their heroes, they have a veteran status and receive pensions in at least three Ukrainian oblasts, in the areas where they fought, with up to 15 million inhabitants. Shruggin this fact off is not as easy, it is divisive all right, 100th anniversary of Roman Shukhevych and the death of Vasyl Kuk were celebrated on the state level. Shrugging them off because some foreighners consider them traitors is not that easy. It is a subject of controversy, so let's keep Soviet and WWII personalities out of the article.Hillock65 16:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Those "several millions Ukrainians" are grandchildren of those traitors who sold out to the Germans, offcourse they will try to rewrite the history. Its hard for them to addmit they have wrotten blood. It eats them from the inside, thats why they are so jumpy about it. M.V.E.i. 19:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please spare us the twisted national-bolshevik view on history and concentrate instead on topic of discussion. No further comments on history. Hillock65 19:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ruslana is pro Yuishenko. And there are many people who won the Eurovision, nothing unique in that. M.V.E.i. 16:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, M.V.E.i what do you suggest? Bogdan 17:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

If I could suggest Solomiya Krushelnytska instead of an obscure Tymoshenko, a famous opera singer, known not only in Ukraine. She is also apolitical and non-controversial and will balance nicely the male-dominated picture. The image can be downloaded from Ukrainian wiki since it is old enough to be in commons. Hillock65 17:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

So, Hillock would suggest something like this?

• T. Shevchenko
• L. Ukrainka
• B. Khmelnytsky
• A. Shevchenko
• P. Popovich
• S. Korolyov
• S. Krushelnytska
• Ruslana Lyzhychko

Lets get this over with. Bogdan 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Tymoshenko is much more famous then her. I dont see the problem. Leave it the way it is now. M.V.E.i. 19:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the list. Maybe instead of two people connected to space exploration/cosmonauts (Popov and Korolyov) we could add more historical figures? What do people think about Roxelana if one wants to go further back into history? Hillock65 17:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess popovich could go, but there is no way we can take out Korolyov. He practically built the Soviet space program. As for Roxalana, I wouldn't mind, but I don't think she's very well known around the world. Bogdan 18:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Roxelana is absolutely a great idea. Our time diversity and gender distribution would be greatly enhanced. I doubt we can find a free image of Ruslana though. It would be great if we do. --Irpen 18:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you gone mad?? Roxalena more then Korolyov? I see that the Ukrainian article competes with English and French people on who has the cheapest image. M.V.E.i. 19:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Guys, i think the current image is best and no one can go, esspecially Makhno, who, together with Korolyov, are the two most importent figures here. If you decide to remove Makhno, please delete my name as "author" and "source". You can keep all the work i've done, but if Makhno is removed i dont want my name there. M.V.E.i. 19:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I see you guys compete on how to make the picture cheaper, so i offer (me it discusts but you guys might like it): Verka Serduchka (why not?? thats where it goes), Klichko, Shevchenko, Roxelena. Then you will be in the same line as French people, as those who have the cheapest pictures. In that rythm you will find yourself in the European Union! M.V.E.i. 19:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am also against Makhno. Let's keep it without divisive personalities. If Russians won't object to the inclusion of Korolyov, let him be. Let's get some concensus on who should be in the there and move on:

• T. Shevchenko
• L. Ukrainka
• B. Khmelnytsky
• A. Shevchenko
• Roxelana
• S. Korolyov
• S. Krushelnytska
• Ruslana Lyzhychko

There is a nice balance of male - female personalities now. Any other additions/changes? Hillock65 19:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I as a Russian not only don't object, but support you guys having Korolyov. I mean, he's half Russian and half Ukrainian, so both nations can equaly be proud of him. Roxalena instead of Stephen Timoshenko? Ruslana?? Cheap. At least you didn't insert Verka Serduchka. Look, i dont want to take part in this image-murderer. All i can advice you is if you dont want an administrator to delete your image (in case you creat one) make shure there are no license problems (and with Ruslana you will have, they werent taken before 1953 so the images are copywrited). In case you use the current image as a base, please delete my nickname from "author" and "source". M.V.E.i. 19:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so now we have consesus for 6 of the 8 pictures (T. Shevchenko, L. Ukrainka, B. Khmelnytsky, A. Shevchenko, S. Korolyov and S. Krushelnytska) right? The only question is Ruslana or Tymoshenko or Makhno or Roxelana? Of the four I would prefer Tymoshenko and Roxelana. Bogdan 20:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Krushelnytska is a bad choice. Guys, cant you see Makhno wasnt a politician?? He didnt understand those stuff. He was just a peasent who wanted freedom for the peasents so they could work out of the feeling they are free and wont be controled by parasites. He was offered bribes by the Reds, Whites, Petlura and Grigoryev, and he refused. Thats why he lost. He died in complete poverty. M.V.E.i. 20:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought we agreed, no divisive personalities - Makhno is out of the question. Tymoshenko is very obscure. My vote is for Roxelana. It is non-political, from a different time frame, and adds another female to the list dominated by males. Hillock65 20:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, why have we not considered any figures from the princely period? I notice their portraits have been avoided in the articles Russians and Belarusians as well, but I would not have a problem with thoughtfully-chosen East Slavs of this period appearing in any of the three.

Although their ancestry is traced back to Scandinavia, would in not be appropriate to include Kniaz’ Volodymyr Velykyy, Kniahynia Ol’ha, Yaroslav Mudryy, or Danylo Halyts’kyy as important Ukrainians? —Michael Z. 2007-09-16 23:23 Z

That cant be done, they were not Ukrainians. They were not even slavs. M.V.E.i. 09:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Portrait criteria

Can we establish a list of portrait criteria as a basis for discussion?

This seems to be a popularity contest run by a committee, which can only result in a boring list of personalities. There are very few famous Ukrainians who aren't divisive at all. Isn't the idea to have a representative grouping of significant figures for this encyclopedia, not just our favourite folk heroes?

I would point out that Makhno can also be considered a bandit leader who murdered Mennonites and burnt their villages. Along with Putlura, Khmelnytsky would be removed from the nomination if we leave out anyone who has been accused of killing Jews. Remove the nationalists, Soviets, and Yushchenko supporters too, and it starts to get watered right down. —Michael Z. 2007-09-16 21:32 Z

You dont even know who he was. He havent burnt down and images, and he killed those of his men who did that. Makhno haven't killed Jews, it was a lie invented by Petlura. He killed those of his man who have killed Jews. His right hand, Levka Zadov, amd the head of the Gulay Polye soviet, were Jewish. M.V.E.i. 09:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think a number of factors should be taken into account: people well-known in and outside of Ukraine, representative of different time periods and not just men, but female too, and no hugely controversial figures. I guess we can get a few of those out of so many Ukraine has had. Hillock65 21:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind adding some good photos of people who are not as widely-known, to help draw an interested reader in to discover a little-known but interesting personality.

We definitely want diversity in gender, period, and I would say politics. I'd like to see at least one living person. Also, a wide variety of vocations: political leadership, academics, arts, military, music or sports.

I disagree that non-controversy should be a criterion. Naturally, a more controversial or not universally liked figure may be harder to agree on, but how else can the portrait collage represent the tumultuous and diverse history of Ukrainians? Perhaps we can include one or two such figures who balance each other out. —Michael Z. 2007-09-16 22:59 Z

MVEi, you should cut down on providing your eloquent opinions about the people, we are discussing here. Read their articles and suggest some valuable changes. Your comments here are unhelpful.

Michael, I think we should stay away from the figures that are divisive within Ukraine. Khmelnytsky is certainly controversial, true, and Poles may not like him. But there is no strong dislike of him within Ukraine from any side. The same may be said about Kirponos, an acclaimed and respected war hero. Despite being the Red Army commander, I have never heard any badmouthing of Kirponos from the nationalist circles. And I disagree with pre-Ukrainian figures. East Slavic Princes of 10th-11th centuries were not Russian in modern sense. Neither they were Ukrainian. --Irpen 02:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree about what you said to Michael. Khmelnitsky should stay, and East-Slavic princes should not be entered due to the fact they were not Ukrainians. They were the people of Rus, Rusachi as they were called. Not Ukrainian nor Russians. Thats why in the Russians and Belarussians images those were avoded. And knyaz Vladimir wasn't even Slavic, he was Varagian. M.V.E.i. 10:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, Josaphat Kuntsevych doesnt fit

First, he was canonysed only in the Greek-Catholic chirch, which means it represent's only a minority and not the provoslavian majority (not talking about atheists). Second, he wasn't even Ukrainian but ethnicly Belarusian. M.V.E.i. 20:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Popovich

I noticed we have a license problem with his image. I thing he should be replaced to Korolev, who was half Ukrainian. Please state your opinions. M.V.E.i. 09:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

License problems solved

If you will enter the image page you will see that a discription and source and license types were all given. I have done it to prevent the possibility of a future administrator deleting it due to license problems. M.V.E.i. 10:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Links

The links that are being removed are relevant and helpful to readers. Why remove all of them? Ostap 20:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The Kuban Kazak doesn't like Ukrainians, methinks.Galassi (talk) 21:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

May I remember you both, and the other editors, that we are writing an encyclopedia here, not a linkfarm. Some of the links may be allowable, though most can better be used as references, and some plainly fail our external links guideline. Please discuss them here first before readding them.

Also, please assume good faith, deleting external links does not mean that someone does not like Ukrainians. --Dirk Beetstra 11:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

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