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Documentaries and Interviews

Just one question, how would one cite a TV documentary or interview? A lot of the time these things don't appear on the internet or on a news broadcast, so it's difficult to include information from a source like that in an article. BalkanFever 04:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a job for {{cite video}}. RossPatterson (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Here's a real example using {{cite video}}...

• Sherratt, Dr Andrew (Presenter); Sarah Marris (Producer); with Daniel Seibert, Dr Françoise Barbira-Freedman, Dr Tim Kendell, Dr Jon Robbins and Sean Thomas (1998). Sacred Weeds: Salvia divinorum (video) (Documentary). UK: TVF Productions (for Channel 4). Retrieved 2007-08-08.

--SallyScot (talk) 11:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Style guideline for PD sourced content

Template:RFCstyle

Does WP:REF support that all (all, as in everything without exception) PD-sourced material be placed in quotes to avoid the appearance of plagiarism? If PD-sourced material is not in quotes, is it proper to remove the offending text? Please say it ain't so! -- Paleorthid (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The same editor removed a map and updates which interfered with his wrapping PD text as quotations. He places imaginary plagiarism restrictions above that to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Or, in this case, this wasn't even expired copyrighted material, as the work was created in the public domain. -- SEWilco (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

SEWilco, that is misleading. You know I made effort to save your contributions here: Talk:Bathhouse Row#Alternative sources, for editing back into the article when more peace prevails. To others, please see the history of edits of Bathhouse Row, reflecting many combative reverts, and the talk page, if you want to review SEWilco and my roles. doncram (talk) 21:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The PD text was still adjacent, with cosmetic blank lines (proposed by another editor), although better organized than in the original, with the source cited at the end of each section. There was no need to destroy the improved presentation and remove material. And you didn't bother restoring the new material, leaving the article for readers and editors with older text and large blocks of text protected from alteration within quotation markings. You say below that "a huge block of text" is intimidating, yet that is exactly what you insist upon. -- SEWilco (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

To focus on the question posed for the RFC, is it wrong for another editor (me) to delete copied text from a 1985 source while leaving a link (change which SEWilco reverted)? Is it wrong for an editor (me) to set aside copied text into block quotes (which SEWilco reverted several times)? I tried both approaches as intermediate steps in editing the Bathhouse Row article, to make some space to improve the article with new writing outside of the copied text sections, toward eliminating all of the copied text. Perhaps either editor approach is fine. Someone can add PD text without violation of copyright but with poor referencing practice (not putting it into quotes to reflect that the wording is copied). In my view, another editor has equal right to remove it all, leaving link to the available source, or to set it aside in block quotes, or to label it as badly referenced / requiring improvement in referencing. SEWilco would even deny me the right to put copied text into quotes, I actually had to beg him to let me. Paleorthid, where do you stand on the right of an editor to set aside text into quotes, or to label an article as poorly referenced? (You posed other side of the question, must you use quotes, in terms of say it isn't so, now what is your view about can you choose to use quotes, or can u label unquoted copied text as poorly referenced?) doncram (talk) 06:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely support the right to place that kind of text in block quotes, or remove it. I suppose it would depend how well-written and informative it was. If the article could easily survive without it, I'd say remove it and link to it. If not, then block quotes would seem fair enough. SlimVirgin 18:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

doncram wrote: Someone can add PD text without violation of copyright but with poor referencing practice (not putting it into quotes to reflect that the wording is copied). You're confusing the issue somewhat. Something in the public domain is by definition non-copyrightable and the only issue is proper referencing of the material and that does not have to be done via block-quotes. In addition, if you have a problem with material that doesn't address an issue in your opinion then find something that does.Awotter (talk) 23:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

To give some more info to Paleorthid's question, I have indeed added the "nofootnotes" tag to a number of articles covered in "Category:Misplaced Pages articles incorporating text from public domain works of the United States Government". For some of these articles which show some effort to properly reference other sources, I have added a note to the talk page such as this one related to one of my edits that Paleorthid questions. In response to a a similar posting I made on Talk page of "2007 Brooklyn tornado", an author/editor expressed appreciation for my calling attention to the appearance that the article was poorly sourced due to the use of that "USGovernment" template, and has chosen to fix the article so as to be able to remove that disclaimer. In other cases I have just added the "nofootnotes" tag. In some cases I removed offending text (leaving the appropriate external link to the text source). In one case I returned to add more sources and to set aside copied text in a block quote, see this diff on James R. Allen article. I think all of these interventions are helpful and justified. doncram (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have stated that these types of edits on articles involving big hunks of copied text are needed to avoid the appearance of plagiarism, but that is only one reason. Another reason is to clarify that, in some cases, virtually all the text is copied, perhaps slavishly, from a source that perhaps should be questioned. I noted in the Talk:James R. Allen case that the official U.S. Air Force biography which was the source, had neglected to discuss potential controversy about his role as superintendent of the Air Force Academy when women were admitted, which later led to great controversy and scandals. I don't know in that case whether Allen was involved constructively, obstructively, or not at all, but I do question whether the USAF official biographies are selective in what they report in ways that excludes anything that might reflect poorly on the USAF. I think it is highly appropriate to segregate by quotations or block quotes anything that is directly copied, to avoid being slavish dupes of dated or otherwise questionable sources. doncram (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It occurs to me to look at the official U.S. military bios of officials involved in the Tailhook scandal. Compare the official bio for official U.S. Navy bio for Frank Kelso which does not mention Tailhook to the wikipedia entry Frank B. Kelso II which does cover it. My point is that slavish copies into wikipedia look convincing, but in fact are selective, biased accounts that only show the military in a favorable way. Quite a high proportion of the articles in "Category:Misplaced Pages articles incorporating text from public domain works of the United States Government" are virtual copies of US military bios, but are presented not in quotes so they convey a) that the facts stated are accurate, obvious, non-controversial, and further they imply b) the facts stated are the notable ones to be said about the given person. It is intimidating to others who might want to edit, and would naturally search for other sources if they see that the whole block of text is just from one source, that it is not considered obvious, uncontroversial facts. I believe the military bios are valid on most biographical facts, but still if u copy it without putting it in quotes I think you are endorsing the included material and endorsing the omissions of significant negative material. doncram (talk) 04:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Another reason is to facilitate entry into the editing of an article by other editors. When there is a huge block of text copied in from another site, it is naturally intimidating to many potential editors. To begin to revise or add to an already big article that may be stated very authoritatively, is difficult, unless and until one understands that all of the article, or huge chunks, is merely copied from one source. This came up in somewhat heated discussion with SEWilco of Bathhouse Row where copied text is currently segregated in block quotes; it certainly applies to Duquesne Spy Ring which is mostly 33 profiles and photos copied from here. doncram (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Doncram says that a huge block of text is intimidating, yet that is exactly the format he has forced upon Bathhouse Row. The copied text was "segregated" by him, replacing a better organized and well sourced format (which also had some updates which he removed). -- ] (talk) 05:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Copied text seems unencyclopedic. Shouldn't an encyclopedia include condensed discussion, that is be shorter than the sources that it cites? It does not add value to merely copy. It potentially adds value to call attention to material, by selective quoting and citing, or by including an external link. doncram (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Copied text is no more encyclopedic than original text, based merely upon whether the text is being reused or newly written. We accept newly written text and consider it for further editing. Would text copied from, say, the current edition of an encyclopedia not be encyclopedic merely because it was copied? It would be a copyright violation, but it would not lose its encyclopedic quality merely due to being copied. Being encyclopedic depends upon an evaluation of the specific text and not its origin. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I do appreciate Paleorthid's raising this question here, which may be an appropriate place to raise it. I look forward to your comments. I have also made a point to raise the issue in WikiProjects involved in many of the articles, as here:Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history#Copied material in Military History articles, and quality ratings and here Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Aviation#Copied material, inappropriately sourced, in aviation articles. doncram (talk) 21:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

As I told Doncram (who seems to have then ignored me and gotten into the same dispute with other people) PD text doesn't need to be in quotes. There's no legal or ethical requirement for this... even our copyright/plagiarism critics have never complained once about our use of PD text. There are much better issues to fret over. --W.marsh 21:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

We interacted over editing Big Oaks National Wildlife Refuge to improve its referencing and in discussing those edits in its talk page. I did not ignore you at all there, but your assertion of no need to track copied material did not convince me. It turned out that the article was referenced inadequately to start with: it had been tagged with the general disclaimer that it "incorporates text from" one source, but in fact when specific statements were reviewed, some were not supported by that one source after all. Keeping track of which text is copied from where by using quotes is part of sensible, normal practices of good referencing / proper sourcing, that is the lesson I took from our discussion. doncram (talk) 23:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

To sharpen my point slightly: use of the general disclaimer obscures new Original Research assertions that can be added to an article, as was the case here. It is fair to label an article having the general disclaimer "incorporates text from" as poorly referenced, given higher likelihood that OR assertions can/ may well have crept in, given no separation between sourced vs. non-sourced material. doncram (talk) 06:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• No - per WP:CREEP first and foremost, but among other things per above. MilesAgain (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Hmm, the WP:CREEP article is interesting but I don't think it is very relevant. I don't think that keeping copied text in quotes is something that is complex to manage. And it is the practice in most English-speaking educational systems, that students are taught to do that. doncram (talk) 23:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Students aren't writing papers to inform an audience though, they're writing them to prove their knowledge of the topic, and thus, using someone elses words as body text is a problem, even if used legally and attributed. We're just trying to create good articles, proving how much we the writers know about the subject is irrelevant. --W.marsh 23:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
      • By mentioning the usual training of students, I was meaning to convey that keeping copied text in quotes is a procedure that is widely understood and hence not unduly "complex" to manage, relating to WP:CREEP. I didn't mean to suggest that the collective of wikipedia editors is involved in writing articles to get a grade. But, come to think of it, perhaps that is sort of true that we writers do need to prove the accuracy of what we know/write. The collective of wikipedia editors can well be concerned with their credibility and the credibility of wikipedia in general, and there are principles of Verifiability and so on. Unquoted copied text simply looks bad, is disappointing and discouraging to come across, and obscures the verifiability (the specific sourcing) of the material. doncram (talk) 23:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Random break 1

When one publisher republishes a new edition of a work from a different publisher and author (after the earlier work has either entered the public domain, or permission has been obtained) the new publisher acknowledges the earlier edition in the front matter, but does not use quotation marks or indention to distinguish text which is being used without alteration. Following that convention, I believe it should be sufficient for Misplaced Pages to mention in the reference section that an article is derived from a PD article published elsewhere.

If specific facts need to be supported, and rely on the PD edition, a suitable inline citation should be provided. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 23:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

But exactly! Each fact with a big text copied from a PD source, does need to be supported. You mean one needs to insert an in-line citation for each sentence. (And I think each sentence needs to be put in quotes, to show that the wording, not just the content, is from the given source.) The better alternative is to put the whole text in a big quote. doncram (talk) 01:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no difference between facts in reused PD text and facts in original text. If each sentence of original writing requires a citation to support its facts, then indeed each sentence of reused PD text needs a citation to support its facts. You're blending text with facts in your claim. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's where you and I differ. I think there is and should be a big difference between statements in copied PD text and statements written by the editors. If a statement is not in quotes in an encyclopedia article, it signifies to me as a reader that the editors have carefully considered it and concluded that it is fact, non-controversial. But if I am beginning to work on an article and a big block of text turns out to be merely copied, I am disappointed and I have to revise my expectations. I realize that as a regular reader I was misled. I realise then that careful consideration was probably NOT taken in deciding which facts were controversial or otherwise need specific support. It is too easy for someone to paste in whole blocks of PD text without thinking; I simply do not believe that an editor who copied a 1000 word passage, say, actually went through it and checked whether there were other sources available for every statement in it, separately, and that the consensus view on every point is the one stated in the PD text. Cutting and pasting a huge block equates with noncritical thinking. If an editor has reworded the material, I do believe that she/he cogitated over it, and would likely have been referring to several sources, and has taken care in evaluating whether some statement is a consensus, factual statement not requiring separate support. Even when mainly working from one source, the editor limits her/himself to rewriting what she/he understands to be pretty well known, and refrains from merely rewording statements that she/he knows are questionable or that she/he cannot evalutate the accuracy of. That's how it is supposed to work, in my view, and that's what I think most encyclopedia readers expect. doncram (talk) 17:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

An author did consider their text when they wrote it, and a Misplaced Pages editor is responsible for reuse... and you're changing to yet another claim from the preceding facts-require-citations statement. Which of your numerous positions is today's statement on formatting for PD text? -- SEWilco (talk) 17:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you meant to imply that only asserted facts that might be controversial need to be supported separately. However, when a big text is copied to create an article, it is usually not obvious which assertions might require specific support. And it is being copied in by one editor who, perhaps uniquely, believes the PD material is all true, when it may not be. The PD material is given undue credence, it is pasted in and appears to be the received wisdom (behold, it appears in an encyclopedia, it must be true), when in fact the PD source may be outdated, inappropriate, suspect due to bias, and so on which is obscured by not putting that material in quotes. While one editor may slavishly believe one source, there are many other perspectives usually. The editing process requires keeping track of what is the source of facts, particularly when it is just one source that is being relied upon at first. doncram (talk) 01:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant that whether an inline citation is needed is independent of the Misplaced Pages article being based on a PD article. So if the fact is controversial, or if the fact would be difficult to look up in an index or table of contents of one of the sources in the reference section, then an inline citation should be supplied.

It could be a bit awkward if some passages from the PD article are in quotes, because they are followed by an inline citation, while other parts are not in quotes, because there is no inline citation. This is a problem unique to Misplaced Pages. It is only in Misplaced Pages where every controversial fact has to be supported. Other publishers rely on the reputation of the publisher or the author to support many of the facts. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A bunch of sentences together carry no undue credence on their own. Wrap them in quotes and they're set aside as being special and alteration is forbidden. If a paragraph simply has a bunch of text then people will read and edit the paragraph, with the ability to check facts in whatever sources are cited. Evaluation of text being outdated, biased, or inappropriate, has to be done for all text and not only whatever happens to be wrapped in quotation marks. Actually, text in quotation marks is by implication not to be altered and outdated, biased, and inappropriate terms are acceptable in a quotation. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at WP:MOS#Quotations ("Attribution—The author of a quote of a full sentence or more is named; this is done in the main text and not in a footnote. An exception is that attribution is unnecessary for well-known quotations (e.g., from Shakespeare) and those from the subject of the article or section." and WP:MOS#Quotation marks ("Double or single—Quotations are enclosed within "double quotes". Quotations within quotations are enclosed within 'single quotes'."), I'd interpret that guideline as advising that literal quotations, regardless of source and unless the quote is well-known, should be set off by quotation marks and should be attributed. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

We usually aren't actually quoting the PD source, such as the 1911 Britannica, but just using its wording. Using something as body text isn't the same as using it as a quote. --W.marsh 00:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

But if an article is a total quote from PD but the quoted part is not indicated, and if someone wants to reword a paragraph, how will the reader know what has come from the original source and what may have been altered and therefore may not represent the original PD author? I am thinking of a particular article that is (or was at least) a total quotation from a known writer who donated (or sold) her writing to a site that is now in the PD. This article was just several huge blocks of text -- very reader unfriendly. Does that mean that anyone who alters anything in a PD article MUST reference the alteration? Mattisse 00:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages publishes an article that is derived from a PD article, it is no different from Dover Publications publishing a revised edition of a PD book. To avoid plagarism, the original edition should certainly be acknowledged, but if readers wish to know what passages remain unaltered from the original, they will just have to buy the original and compare. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

In the case I am thinking of, it was slavishly copied but not attributed to the particular author who wrote it. It was just labeled PD. Now, of course, if someone went to the PD source, they would eventually discovered it was a word for word copy. (Or maybe it will have be altered in some way they would discover if they did a side by side comparison.) Normally Dover, or whatever publishing house, is very careful about notifying the reader of the copyright status of the material they publish. If Dover revised a PD work, I am quite sure they would copyright the revision. Mattisse 00:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I daresay Dover would obtain a copyright on the revision*, just as Misplaced Pages editors copyright their revisions (and immediatley license them under the GFDL license). However, there would be no markings in the body of the text to distinguish passages that changed from passages that remained the same.

*For recent publications, Dover couldn't help but get a copright on revisions; it's automatic. Of course, registering the copyright is another matter. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Dover is not striving to be encyclopedic, with the policy of WP:V either. Dover can be POV without having to cite sources. Mattisse 01:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

To Matisse's (00:14 UTC) question "(in a PD originated article) how will the reader know what has come from the original source?": add "and to what degree will they care?" Normally source matters for only select portions of articles, and the need for cites can be dealt with selectively as the need arises, and to the degree it is important. Articles are evolving to using more intext cites. Among weakly sourced facts, those that have the highest demand for verification will be among the first to attract intext cite edits. The rest can wait their turn. --Paleorthid (talk) 04:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It matters to the degree accuracy matters. If accuracy in Misplaced Pages is unimportant, then we do not need this discussion. Anyone can add any statement or chunks of statements and the source is irrelevant. WP:V is irrelevant as nothing needs to be verified. And it matters to the degree that you want editors to edit. It is the articles that are long blocks of PD text, some of it out of date, that editors seem to avoid as it is daunting to verify a humongous copy/paste article. Easier to start from scratch and find sources. A huge number of articles are copy/paste from Encyclopedia Britannica 1913. My observation is that editors seem to leave them alone. Mattisse 19:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You're reading the minds of editors? Perhaps such articles appear to be encyclopedic. But you're implying that editors verify a humongous copy/paste article differently than they verify any other humongous article. Inventing a likely article name... Is History of Boston humongous, how do editors verify it, and does it matter if it is reused text? -- SEWilco (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

How do editors verify a copy/paste article? They have to find multiple secondary sources. Who wants to do that for huge blocks of text. Not very many people. That is why those articles are neglected and stay that way. The point of WP:V is that each reader can verify facts independently while reading the article. For example, some studies have shown inaccuracies in the current Encyclopedia Britannica but since the EB does not source its articles, the reader can not judge the quality of EB sources. Here lies the potential superiority of Misplaced Pages. That is why Misplaced Pages desires multiple sources to verify a fact. The template {{onesource}} can be placed on an article that relies on one source overly. Also PD articles can be out of date. WP:RS and WP:V are important. Are you saying they are not? Mattisse 20:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

How do editors verify any article? "They have to find multiple secondary sources. Who wants to do that for huge blocks of text." What facts are in huge blocks of text? Facts tend to be in fragments of text, so huge blocks of text are not fact checked in entirety. Facts within text are checked, which is why most text with citations has citation notes scattered throughout. Reused PD text is just text donated by an editor. If the source from which it came supports WP:V then the facts within might be supported by the same source from which the text came. The facts scattered within the text are checked individually and may acquire additional sources. Note that reused PD text might actually not meet requirements such as WP:RS but might still be usable as raw text, conceivably with unrelated citations (in addition to credit for the text, which would be separate from fact-supporting citations). -- SEWilco (talk) 00:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, do you think that a block of reused PD text is a monolithic fact which must be isolated and cited in totality as being a fact? As a fact, not merely identification of the source of the text? -- SEWilco (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Another problem with this is splits and merges. Under this new standard, if we merged two articles, since we can't just copy text from a free (GFDL) source but most quote it, merged articles would have to formally quote the original articles they were merged from. If we split content off from an overlong Misplaced Pages article, the new subarticle would have to say, "According to the original Misplaced Pages article... quote..." and so on. That's another reason why this "quote" thing is silly. We always have re-used, without formally quoting, text from free sources, with proper attribution. It's practically a required part of what we do. --W.marsh 03:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see that raising a problem. Perhaps you need to conceptualize "we the collective of wikipedia editors" as one big collective author. "We" wrote one big article, say, and then choose to split it, "we" have still written each of them. To the extent that either/both contain text sourced from some PD source OUTSIDE of wikipedia, that can be / ought to be tracked, but you don't have to put in quotes "our" wording from the other article. It is "we" that wrote it wherever it is. doncram (talk) 04:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And "we" track the origin of the text "we" wrote through the article history, not by noting each editor's contribution within the text. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, you say "We have always" done whatever, and I kinda want to separate from that. It is not the practice in the articles covered WP:NRHP where I have mostly participated, for example. It is in fact a few intrusions into that area which raise my concern about this issue. doncram (talk) 04:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with "kinda want to", it's the "absolutely want every article to" that I have heartburn over.--Paleorthid (talk) 16:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Random break 2

I am a member of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ships, and we often copy the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships verbatim, with proper sourcing, as a start to many articles. DANFS is a public domain encyclopedia (not really a dictionary) that aims to have a brief history of every ship to ever serve in the U.S. Navy. I completely disagree with the principle that all PD text must be placed in blocks of quoted text. Our uses of DANFS are not a copyright violation, because the source is public domain. They are not plagiarism, because they are properly sourced. Finally, they are encyclopedic, because they come from an encyclopedia. TomTheHand (talk) 14:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than placing this kind of material in quotes, would it not make more sense to write it up as your own summary? Cutting and pasting is a little unethical, but it can also lead to strange-looking writing depending on the source, and in particular on the age of the source (some older PD texts use very flowerly language). Also, the point of Misplaced Pages (as I see it anyway) is that it's meant to be 100 percent our own work, free for others to use. Not 100 percent someone else's work, copied and pasted by us. SlimVirgin 14:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

If you'll check out DANFS, you'll see that it's already a concise summary. For many ships it is the best, and sometimes only, history available. It is not unethical to copy and attribute a public domain source, and it is just as free for others to use as it would be if you wrote it yourself. There is no moral high ground in rewriting it; what's free is free. Keep in mind the number of articles that began as copies of entries from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, and see here for how many articles still include its text. TomTheHand (talk) 14:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but they're often poorly written by our standards, and rarely NPOV. In my view, our own work should be our own work. That's a separate issue from whether we're allowed to copy PD texts, because of course we are. I suppose the question is why anyone would want to, when the articles could be rewritten fairly quickly. SlimVirgin 16:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I took TomTheHand's suggestion and I see between 12K and 15K articles (here) that still include its text from EB1911. Considering the proliferation of PD source templates, some uncategorized or poorly categorized, the style issue that we are discussing surely affects several 10s of thousands of articles. --Paleorthid (talk) 17:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a waste of time to rewrite PD text simply for the sake of rewriting, and we have other guidelines that address poor writing and NPOV, so that's not really relevant. DANFS, Britannica 1991, and other PD sources are only a starting point and are cleaned up and expanded as the article evolves. TomTheHand (talk) 17:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that's where we differ. I wouldn't say "simply for the sake of rewriting," as though that's not much of a concern, because to me the way an article is written is very important. But I suppose it depends on priorities. If your priority is to get the material into Misplaced Pages in whatever format — information over presentation — then I can see your point. SlimVirgin 18:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't advocate just dumping an article from DANFS into Misplaced Pages, tossing in some wikilinks, and saying "Woohoo! We're done!" However, I think it's very valuable to be able to use a DANFS entry as a starting point, then gradually clean up the prose and add additional sources. If you look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:DANFS, you'll see how many hundreds of articles began this way. I suppose you could describe my attitude as "eventualist" in this sense: we should get articles these articles going now, by copying PD sources, and then improve them with time.

The first article of that whatlinkshere list is USS Arizona which includes the DANFS statement "This article includes text from the public domain Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. The entry can be found here" However, I note that article does NOT in fact seem to have any text from DANFS at all, and in particular not at the "here" link given. Perhaps the DANFS template is overused? By the way, for articles originally based on the 1911 encyclopedia britannica, the 1911 eb template is removed from articles after they have been completely rewritten. I would think that editors of articles should want not to give undue credit to DANFS. Perhaps some other sort of legacy DANFS template, like "this article was originally based on a DANFS entry, but no longer incorporates any text from that" would allow you to express your appreciation to DANFS while a) taking proper credit for wikipedia editors and b) avoiding muddying the waters about the extent to which wikipedia is merely copied from public domain texts. 69.226.46.107 (talk) 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

We're at a point now where we don't do a lot of dumping from DANFS any more. We've shifted from quantity to quality. However, it'd be extremely problematic if it suddenly became unacceptable; as Paleorthid points out, tens of thousands of existing articles are based on PD sources. TomTheHand (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

What began this discussion, I believe, is the practice mentioned in your first sentence: 'I don't advocate just dumping an article from DANFS into Misplaced Pages, tossing in some wikilinks, and saying "Woohoo! We're done!" ' I understand that was done previously with PD sourced articles. The question is if we should condone such practices now, especially if the source is not an encyclopedia. Do you think so? Mattisse 20:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The question is whether the reused PD text must be inside quotation marks. -- SEWilco (talk) 20:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The quotation marks issue became the question after the creator of a particular article recently did a "dump and desert" from a source that was not an encyclopedia. When another editor suggested rewriting the article, starting with a skeleton of the original "dump and desert" so he could edit it and add sources, the original creator resisted this attempt to rewrite the article, (even though the second editor was willing to collaborate in a sandbox first). Mattisse 20:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what situation you're talking about, and the question here is: "Does WP:REF support that all (all, as in everything without exception) PD-sourced material be placed in quotes to avoid the appearance of plagiarism?" -- SEWilco (talk) 21:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Our collective answer to that question looks to be "No", at this point anyway. No one here has explicitly stated that they advocate that all of the 10s of thousands of articles with PD source tags must be treated with quotes to satisfy the style guidance that this talk page relates to. Certainly there are deficiencies, and remedies available for those deficiencies, on an article-by-article basis, but that's not the question.--Paleorthid (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

But if you were writing an article and suddenly introduced part of a copied PD text, you would have to say something like: "The X Encyclopedia writes that ..." and then quote them, or place the text in blockquotes, or something to indicate that this had been lifted from elsewhere. That's just common sense, and it would take seconds to add it, so I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to do it. SlimVirgin 19:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What is the useful question to ask, then, Paleorthid? It is probably not the straw man proposal that you put forward to start this discussion. If it was just that, then the question was posed by you and answered by you. Perhaps you could expand on what you think are appropriate or inappropriate remedies for deficiencies (to be applied on an article-by-article basis, as you say). Or perhaps there should be some distinctions made between text copied from encyclopedic sources (1991 eb, DANFS) vs. just any old random U.S. Federal document that is in the PD. I think it is clear that WP:REF guidance on these matters could be improved. Could you make a real proposal, or suggest where you think discussion would be productive? Sincerely, 69.226.46.107 (talk) 01:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The original question I posed was my understanding of instructions doncram had expressed to me (and many others) in tagging articles we were working on, work that I have halted until we get this cleared up. Correct me, but that's not the same as a strawman. Nor is it the same as extending logic to its most ridiculous consequence. Doncram had indicated to me that, to avoid plagiarism all PD sourced material needs to be identified with inline cites contained in quotation marks. PD-source tags alone will not satisfy WP:REF. That's not view, and not my preferred style, but doncram indicated that my view and my preferred style was not supported by WP:REF. Rather than engage in edit warring, I put my planned edits on hold and posed the most fundamental question here for comment: Is what doncram was telling me supported by WP:REF: all PD cites have to be in quotes? Now that we have determined that it is not supportable to the extent that doncram initially represented it. Like Misplaced Pages, and consensus, doncrams understanding of the issue has evolved since then. That evolution would not have occurred without this RFC. My understanding is evolving also. I think we have room for improvement in this area.Yes we can move on discussing some of the more nuanced implications of the issue. ---Paleorthid (talk) 19:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Reused text is not a quotation. If you introduce a text because an "excerpt can sometimes explain things better and less controversially than trying to do so ourselves." or to "provide a direct source of information or insight." (per WP:QUOTE) then indeed quotation marks are needed to mark that block of text as representing exactly what someone said, because exactly how they said it is important. Thus what is in the quotation marks must not be altered. The quotation at Of Plymouth Plantation#From the journal must be preserved despite its POV and unusual spelling. However, reused PD text is not a quotation. Reused text does not follow the other WP:QUOTE issues: It might be encyclopedic (such as being from an encyclopedia), the text might be worked into the article imperceptively because it's just text, reused text can indeed be proper paragraphs, and reused text does not have to take away from the encyclopedic feel. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is ridiculous double-speak. Copied text is a quotation, whether u credit it or not. doncram (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mention anything about credit, as that is a WP:V issue and not a style issue. Copied text is only a quotation if it is intended to be "a direct source" and must be marked as providing insight. Otherwise it's just a pile of letters for editors to work on. If I'm referring to the U.S. Declaration of Independence then "the pursuit of Happiness" is a quotation; if I'm writing about sports then the pursuit of happiness might just be some more text to be edited. If I took that phrase from the Declaration or from Common Sense then I should give the author credit for his creation (which I did within this phrasing). -- SEWilco (talk) 02:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Does all text from EB 1911 have to be put in quotation marks or can it be used as text? Does all text from Simple Misplaced Pages have to be put in quotation marks or can it used as text? -- SEWilco (talk) 04:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(←) No, it doesn't have to be quoted. You use the template {{1911}} for the 1911 encyclopedia. There isn't a template for simple.en as far as I know, but you can use {{Translation/Ref}}, or take one from Category:Interwiki translation templates and create a specific template for simple.en if you needed one. Doncram's comments appear to contradict our longstanding practice, as illustrated by the contents of Category:Attribution templates. A key motivation for free content is the we can reuse free content by others and they can reuse the free content we create. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Summary so far

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trying to summarize thus far... and the numbers in the list have been hard-coded intentionally so they can be referred to without the numbers changing due to wikilist editing. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

1. All PD-sourced material must be placed in quotes. 
2. PD-sourced text does not have to be in quotes. (Paleorthid, SEWilco, MilesAgain)
3. PD text must be in blocks of quoted text.
3a. Blocks of text are intimidating to editors. (SEWilco)
3b. Editors verify facts of huge blocks of text in articles. 
3c. The consensus import of 1911 Britannica used no such formatting (MilesAgain)
4. If specific facts need to be supported a suitable inline citation should be provided. (Gerry Ashton, Paleorthid)
5. WP:MOS#Quotation marks: "Quotations are enclosed within 'double quotes'." (Boracay Bill)
5a. We aren't quoting the PD source, just using its wording. (W.marsh, SEWilco, MilesAgain)
6. Quotation marks are needed so the source of PD text can be identified.
6a. Misplaced Pages tracks the origin of text separately from the text, in article History. (Paleorthid, W.marsh, MilesAgain, SEWilco)

I added my name and comment to the above. MilesAgain (talk) 04:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Matisse withdrew Matisse's name from what he/she thought was misrepresentation of Matisse's comments. I follow Matisse and withdraw my name from this "summary" by SEWilco. I do not endorse this as a fair summary of the discussion, however well-meant it may have been intended to be. doncram (talk) 22:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Then nobody agrees with the following:

1. All PD-sourced material must be placed in quotes. 
3. PD text must be in blocks of quoted text.
3b. Editors verify facts of huge blocks of text in articles. 
6. Quotation marks are needed so the source of PD text can be identified.

That leaves:

2. PD-sourced text does not have to be in quotes. (Paleorthid, SEWilco, MilesAgain)
3a. Blocks of text are intimidating to editors. (SEWilco)
3c. The consensus import of 1911 Britannica used no such formatting (MilesAgain)
4. If specific facts need to be supported a suitable inline citation should be provided. (Gerry Ashton, Paleorthid)
5. WP:MOS#Quotation marks: "Quotations are enclosed within 'double quotes'." (Boracay Bill)
5a. We aren't quoting the PD source, just using its wording. (W.marsh, SEWilco, MilesAgain)
6a. Misplaced Pages tracks the origin of text separately from the text, in article History. (Paleorthid, W.marsh, MilesAgain, SEWilco)

very funny summary was removed. i don't think it is easy for anyone very heavily invested in a debate, to summarize it objectively while involved in it. doncram (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, you find someone to summarize it then. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

OK well, for anyone who cares, the above "summary", now enshrined in "archive" do not change tags, is SEWilco's amended by 3 others, and hence probably no longer even SEWilco's view of what is a fair summary of the preceding discussion. It is fairly ridiculous to try to score points or whatever it is SEWilco is trying to do, by taking advantage of removal of some names to imply consensus on some point he wishes were true. doncram (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to identify what the issues are in that long discussion. Apparently I misread something as indicating that PD text must be placed in quotes, and nobody proposed a different interpretation of whatever those statements were saying. If you can improve the discussion, pipe up rather than hiding that something has been misinterpreted. -- SEWilco (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the comments of SlimVirgin below as we are editors and summarizing is not hard and involves some creativity to do it accurately. But it is not important. I personally skip over block chunky articles both as a reader and as an editor. If others enjoy reading a copy/paste, then so be it. For example, the bath house article (in Arkansas, I believe, but I can't remember the name of it) is one that I would just skip over both as a reader and as an editor. But if there are people who like that sort of thing, then so be it. I do not want to deprive you of your enjoyment and there are plenty of other articles for me to contribute to productively. I look for articles to edit that are inviting and interesting to me. I am speaking for myself only. Mattisse 17:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Examples

Examples of what placing all PD sourced material into quotes might look like.

• Nimrod Glacier: Before and after (Discuss) --Paleorthid (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Itek: (No before example) after (Discuss) --Paleorthid (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Bathhouse Row: Before and after (Discuss) -- SEWilco (talk) 16:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The above examples all miss the point. Setting aside long copied in texts in quotes is not usually optimal, it is intermediate, in clarifying which stupid text is merely from one source, which can then be evaluated. (Although I reserve judgement about the Itek article, where an editor/author not involved in this discussion was just doing what he/she thought was right and/or was best, maybe that is meant to be an end point article.) Probably large passages should be deleted entirely, replaced merely by a link to the source. Often the material should be rewritten. These examples are being proffered as if they are proof that quotes look bad. Well, don't copy in the long texts! The only thing worse that long copied in quotes, which require lots of referencing, is copied in text that a reader/editor may sense is copied from somewhere else without proper attribution. It is NOT proper attribution to attach a footnote at the end, or even a template that states "text is incorporated from" somewhere. That is the amount of referencing that is appropriate for crediting substantive content to some source. It is inadequate referencing for showing which actual wording is to be credited (or blamed) to a specific source. If you don't want to credit the source, then DON'T COPY THE TEXT, that is a simple rule you could follow. And perhaps something along those lines should be part of the guidance in WP:REF, if it is not explicit enough on this. doncram (talk) 01:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It surely isn't difficult to summarize a text and keep in quotes anything you feel needs to be reproduced exactly. I must say I agree with Doncram -- if you don't want to attribute text to other people, the best thing is not to copy what they've written. SlimVirgin 13:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the box at the bottom of the article explicit attribution of the source? Doncram's comment "It is NOT proper attribution to attach a footnote at the end, or even a template that states "text is incorporated from" somewhere." disagrees with our longstanding practice of doing exactly that. The entire purpose of the template at the end of the article is to credit the source. There are other potential problems with copying long parts of text from public domain materials, but simply failing to adequately credit the author isn't one. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Well there are some shortcomings in the crediting of public domain authors in wikipedia. First, for instance, a template that I have only come across recently (since this discussion started here), simply states that material in the article is from some National Park Service site, without identifying which one. (To quote: "This article contains material that originally came from a National Park Service website. According to their site disclaimer, 'Information presented on this website, unless otherwise indicated, is considered in the public domain.'" The "their site" is linked to one NPS location with that disclaimer. And I happen know there exist other NPS locations with statements limiting use of NPS-reproduced materials.) A reference in the article may be to a NPS site, but in many articles about historic sites there are often multiple NPS sites referenced, so the template is not specific enough. doncram (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

These templates rarely are specific enough. It's better just to use the PD text as you'd use any other. Read it, summarize it, and give a citation. Doing that avoids all these issues. SlimVirgin 23:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Second, it is interesting perhaps to note that the DANFS attribution is evolving, implying dissatisfaction with the overly general attributions given. After considerable discussion in WP:SHIPS, new versions of the DANFS template allow for linking to the specific DANFS article that is being cited in a given ship's wikipedia article, and even for multiple specific links, because it turns out there are different versions of DANFS material. doncram (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Third, the generic 1911 eb template, the generic DANFS template, and other templates are in my opinion inadequate for not crediting, by name, the specific author of a given article (especially if a specific link to the article showing the author name is not given). doncram (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Fourth, too often not credited is the actual writing done, as opposed to the content (whether or not a sprecific link is given). There is a distinction between crediting the source for content and crediting the source for the writing that I believe is not adequately understood in wikipedia. To credit a source for content, it is enough to provide a reference (perhaps okay to do this in template form that links to the content). However, in my view that needs to be distinguished from crediting the writing, which can be conveyed by use of quotation marks or block quotes. The wikipedia article on plagiarism is currently inadequate in my view, by the way. There are different types of plagiarism that are not adequately understood. One type of plagiarism is not giving attribution at all to a given source. Another type is not giving credit for wording copied, although the source is stated. There are other types of plagiarism. (To illustrate another one, not especially relevant otherwise in this discussion, it is perhaps especially abhorrent to copy the bibliography of a given source, which falsely implies that the author of a plagiarized work has consulted those sources. It is appropriate to cite only the first source which cites those other sources. This clarification on what is appropriate is made somewhere in the wikipedia style guidelines, maybe in WP:CITE, but I believe the inappropriate action is not clearly covered as a heinous type of plagiarism in the plagiarism article.) doncram (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with SlimVirgin, who points out that it is not difficult to summarize a text and use quotes for exact reproductions. On wikipedia, where so many editors are involved, it make it possible for other editors to freely edit the article without worrying about what is an exact copy and what is not. Granted that summarizing is not as easy as a straight copy/paste, but wikipedia is supposed to be about editing. Mattisse 14:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The entire point of free content, though, is that it can be freely reused by other projects. We grant our free content for others to reuse, and in exchange we have always permitted ourselves to use free content by others. We acknowledge the sources of this free material more prominently, in many cases, than we acknowledge our own editors, who are only listed on the history page. So I see Doncram's concerns as disagreeing with our status as a free-content project, and our long history of reusing free content. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If we can agree on this fundamental aspect of Misplaced Pages (and I don't see how we could not agree on this), we could move forward to address the underlying concerns that can be addressed within this context. That is we can talk about using inline cites and quotes as desirable in some situations, not as an enforceable requirement of WP:REF. --Paleorthid (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Again Carl/CBM is commenting in a way that i must acknowledge I find compelling. I do value free software, and free documentation/text content, to be reused by others under the GFDL restrictions. However, I think it is overstatement to say that the "entire point of free content" is that way. Just because it is legal (that is, not a copyright violation) to copy PD text without extensive attribution, does not mean that is better than copying with extensive attribution (that is specific linking to sources and use of quotations to track the specific wording copied). Or better than rewording material, and keeping specific linking to source to reflect content. I think that what PD content gives us, which other sources do not, is the right to copy long passages that go beyond what would be fair use quotations. In some situations (I am not sure where vs. where not), it may be useful for wikipedia articles to provide those long passages. In all of those situations, I am inclined to expect that it is better to quote the PD source than not to quote it. Anyhow, PD content is different, legally, so you can use more of it than content from non-PD sources. That might be a point, if not "the point", about PD stuff. doncram (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

And I find Paleorthid's request also compelling. I don't want to quibble too much here about exactly what I must agree upon as a fundamental aspect of wikipedia in terms of use of free content. Would the following be enough? I recognize that Misplaced Pages was once an underdog group of renegades who were trying to do what people said could not be done, creating a significantly large encyclopedia. By capitalizing upon the expired copyright status of the 1911 eb encyclopedia, which had been widely regarded as a high quality encyclopedia, with additional hard work these renegades were able to manufacture many articles that were encyclopedic, and a wikipedia encyclopedia of substantial scope was born. (I am not really meaning to sound facetious, that is pretty much as I understood it, from afar, as it was happening.) The wholesale incorporation of EB material is, indeed, part of Misplaced Pages history. However, allowing for all that, what is appropriate now may be different. For one, wikipedia has grown and is here to stay, so wholesale incorporations are not necessary for success of the project. For two, there are many public domain sources which are not encyclopedic. Perhaps only well vetted PD sources should be "incorporated" (I would accept DANFS as basically being very well vetted, although apparently there are different DANFS versions and some controversy about which is best/okay within WP:SHIPS) and covered by use of improved templates (which provide specific links to sources, and which are more clear in their statements in some respects). I think it is time to question the presumed value of many PD sources for wholesale copying, and to question whether regular use of quotations when material is copied would not be better for readers and for subsequent editors. doncram (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Paleorthid focuses on what is to be enforceable or not. Few people like to be told what they must do, but it goes both ways. Some would not like to be told they must go back and reword many EB or DANFS-based articles, for instance. I and others would not like to be told that we CANNOT reword EB or DANFS or lesser-quality PD content, or that we cannot put quotes around material that we detect has been copied, as part of tracking what needs to be rewritten to make a better article, one not requiring the generic template-type disclaimers. doncram (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The examples look to me to have been chosen to stimulate discussion, not as proof that quotes look bad. In the userfied Nimrod Glacier example, the one most apt to be described as proof that quotes look bad, I took a robotic approach to simulate an objective approach that might occur under one of the scenarios discussed above. 10s of thousands of problem pages all with the same problem creates an opportunity to use an automated approach to producing the in-line cites and quoting which several here have advocated. There are 730 articles that use the same source as Nimrod Glacier, all written with the same approach: copy-paste direct from the source, wikify, categorize, rewrite very slightly to conform to Misplaced Pages style. If we can simplify the proposed remedy to the point where a bot could do a significant portion of it, that would be a very positive outcome of this discussion. Nimrod Glacier is a great article for discussing this because it is such a simple and straightforward example.--Paleorthid (talk) 19:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing seriously wrong with the "before" form . The attribution at the bottom could be more clear, however. I would suggest making a template similar to Template:Planetmath, and using that to give more direct source information. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If we require quoting for public domain text, why not take it to its logical conclusion and require it for GFDL text as well - such as the previous version of each article you edit? The substance of this proposal is essentially "Misplaced Pages articles cannot be based on public domain texts", which is an EXTREMELY radical change in policy and beyond the scope of this guideline (I found this discussion via WT:MOS, but it's beyond the scope of the manual of style too) —Random832 17:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"It surely isn't difficult to summarize a text and keep in quotes anything you feel needs to be reproduced exactly." - that's fine, but as I read this proposal, it seems to be for requiring quotes for anything that happens to be reproduced exactly —Random832 18:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, except that it doesn't "happen" to be reproduced exactly; it is being copied word for word because people don't want to take the time to write it in their own words. Surely that's not what we're here to do. SlimVirgin 21:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if we find a good free source for a worthwhile topic, and Misplaced Pages lacks an article on that topic, of course we should copy it verbatim. That way, we quickly provide a free, online source in a place people are accustomed to looking for information. Depending on how good the free source was, we might or might not be able to improve on it later. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's what people do. The question is twofold: First, should they be doing it? Why not take the time to read the passage and write it in your own words? Failing to do so can lead to some terrible articles if the PD source is POV or badly written, and they often are. Secondly, a problem arises when only some of the article has been lifted in that way. Do we acknowledge the change of style with quotation marks, or just leave the mishmash of texts? I think it was that question that triggered this thread. SlimVirgin 21:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that Category:Attribution templates is the answer to these questions. Free content from other sources can be incorporated into articles with attribution but no extra quoting. This is how should be. If I am writing a GPL computer program and find GPL code I want to use, I don't rewrite the code, I just incorporate it into my program as is. That's the point of free content as wella s free software. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a big fan of free software and Carl/CBM's bringing it up gave me pause. I think the difference is that software is, well, different. In software, it may be that extensive comments about the source of different code sections is not generally helpful (although on the other hand, isn't there a big fuss made about software version control and bug-checking and tracking, so keeping track of source of code sections might sometimes be helpful). At least the comments do not directly affect the functioning of the software for the users. The value of software is that it functions correctly in doing whatever it is supposed to do, which is more objective than subjective. For an encyclopedia, however, the sourcing is important in establishing the validity of assertions made, as well as in crediting either the external authors or implicitly crediting the wikipedia editorship as the writers of the material. (In many encyclopedias, there are explicit by-lines for the authors of given articles; in wikipedia the implicit by-line is to the collective of wikipedia editors.) An asserted fact is more valuable to a wikipedia reader when its source is given. And, also, it is more helpful to subsequent editors of an article if the pasted-in text is identified. It could also be helpful to computer software editors, to have well commented code, too. I suspect that there are software editors as well as wikipedia editors who want more tracing of the source, when they have to go in and fix things later. doncram (talk) 21:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As for SlimVirgin's first question, about what editors should do, ideally the editor should evaluate the quality of the source. If it's in the public domain because it was written before 1923 it's very likely the article could benefit from a rewrite. If it's a recent technical article written by the leading authorities in the field, which they generously decided to put in the public domain, the Misplaced Pages editor may not be able to improve on it.

As for the issue of distinguishing the text of the original article from alterations made by Misplaced Pages editors, this is an issue, especially if the original is a paper document or in a substantially different format than the Misplaced Pages article. (If the original article is available online in a similar format, computer software exists that will make a comparison easy). This problem exists for paper publishers who create a new edition of a public domain book too, but this situation is different; for the paper publisher, the original publisher and author, and the revision publisher and author, are all known quantities and the revision can normally be presumed to be well done. The Misplaced Pages editors are an unknown quantity and the revision is not reliable.

So, we have a problem that is unique to wikis. Perhaps a major software revision, unique to Wikimedia, to solve this problem, is justified. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 22:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't understand your second paragraph, Gerry. The question is what is wrong with using quotation marks, or blockquotes, or some other form of attribution to show which parts of the article have been lifted word for word? SlimVirgin 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's already been covered in the above discussion. Having blockquoted text discourages people from editing it. From what I've read so far, your main worry is that people don't judge the validity/quality of the text they're copying and that they're just blindly pasting it in. Well, then that's what {{citation needed}}, {{dubious}}, {{update needed}} etc. tags are for. I don't think Misplaced Pages has ever cared about plagiarism, just copyright violations. The quality of the writing and source of the writing are two different issues. If I paste in PD content that's poorly written and POV and whatnot, it should be challenged by other editors. PD material certainly may be out of date, in which case it can be improved upon, but PD text should be treated the same as prose written by Wikipedians -- edited mercilessly. howcheng {chat} 05:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That has been the practice up until now. Some people here seem to want to get rid of that practice, but I will say again - such a change is far beyond the scope of this guideline, or indeed any part of the manual of style. —Random832 08:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The problem I have with using blockquotes or quotation marks to show what part of an article was lifted from a PD source is that if most of the article is unchanged from the PD source, it will be so ugly it will be difficult to read. I suspect that's why no one who prepares a revised edition of a book ever does that. The one technique I have seen used when it is important to keep track of revisions is that a vertical line is placed in the margin next to lines that have changed since the previous version. I'm sure Misplaced Pages is neither equipped nor inclined to do that. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 05:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't cite me, bro!

This source: has been cited in Interstate Highway System, probably to the chagrin of whoever added this Important Note: "Note: do not quote, cite, or reproduce without permission of the author. Contact Essays in History to arrange permission." Going on the assumption that no one has bothered to contact the author, is it unreasonable to just ignore the note? —Rob (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. What the hell were they thinking? MilesAgain (talk) 04:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I imagine they were thinking, correctly, that the author has no right to require people to ask permission to cite or quote him. See fair use, the principle on which we cite or quote every source. TomTheHand (talk) 14:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This kind of "no cite / no quote" questions occur occasionally in academic publications. Usually when it concerns a copy of an officially published source. In such cases it means: You should cite the published source. It is customary to provide the full reference in such cases. Alternatively it maybe a source that is not (yet) published or under review. There it means something like: "Be careful to cite as the publication maybe withdrawn" or "Please do not use this freely as this intelectual property of mine is not quite ready and someone may steal the idea and get it faster to publication than my team". However, by publishing a text on the (open to all) internet without giving full referencing information defeats all these. By doing so the author put the ideas (not the actual text) in the public domain, and implicitly agrees with fair use (ie properly referenced cites and quotes). If you don't want to be cited; don't publish your text! In brief I support TomTheHands comment, the use of the cite is fair use. Arnoutf (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Deterioration

I've restored a version of the page from a few months ago, but I included the recent version of some issues that I know are important to people e.g. where to place ref tags in relation to punctuation.

The page had deteriorated to the point where parts of it were very difficult to understand, and someone had made substantive changes to the layout -- I believe it was User:SallyScot. The page has to be clear and clearly laid-out, so that people can find things and understand them. Otherwise, there's no point in the guideline existing. SlimVirgin 00:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

"deterioration" means what? gradual changes that you, personally, don't agree with? —Random832 18:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I meant changes that made the guideline even harder to follow, with writing that was unclear. SlimVirgin 19:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Here's a hardlink to 'deteriorated' version for ease of reference. --SallyScot (talk) 00:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation templates

Comparison of two versions for this section under discussion. - Similar parts are grayed here only for contrast, otherwise the emphasis (i.e. the bold closing part of #1) is as per original text.

1. The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them unnecessary and annoying, particularly when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and therefore harder to edit. Because they are optional and contentious, citation templates should not be added against consensus, and editors should not change articles from one style to another if there are objections.

2. The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, unless their use is contrary to the established consensus of editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them unnecessary, arguing that they are distracting, particularly when used inline in the article text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and therefore harder to edit.

Version two has dropped the final sentence of version one. Version one ends up on the side of discouraging the use of templates, in contradiction to the first sentence, which states that their use is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline.

Version two also drops the reference to some editors finding the use of citations "annoying", as this is an inflammatory emotional response. Version two replaces this with the argument that some find their use distracting. For contrast, imagine if the section were edited to say that some editors are infuriated with formatting inconsistencies that result from non-use of citation templates.

Version two has better balance in suggesting templates may be used "unless contrary to consensus" rather than "subject to agreement" which was again leaning toward discouragement.

--SallyScot (talk) 00:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You keep leaving out the crucial part that the style should not be changed over objections. It's the same with any style change. It avoids arguments. SlimVirgin 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not the same as any style change because, unlike say reference tags and punctuation, it is not necessarily visible to the reader. In practice you should find editors more relaxed, and you'll see articles containing both freehand and template citations. Version one discourages such tolerance with its emphasis of annoyance on one side. Why does it shout citation templates should not added against consensus while saying nothing about freehand citations being added against consensus, or about citation templates being removed against consensus? --SallyScot (talk) 09:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You can see them if you try to edit. The issue of citation style has been discussed a lot on this page, and it has always been agreed that people shouldn't switch from one style to another over objections, as with any style issue, unless the old style is deprecated; and the principle of not forcing style changes in general on pages over objections has been upheld by the ArbCom. That principle particularly applies to citation templates because many people dislike them and they make pages hard to edit for flow (hard to copy edit). It's a rule of thumb that saves a lot of arguments. If someone wants to start an article using templates, there's nothing to stop them, but they shouldn't change well-formatted references to templates without agreement. SlimVirgin 16:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There are two somewhat distinct issues here. On a purely templates versus not-templates level, the matter is largely invisible to the reader, and so it's more a matter of editor preference than many of the more obvious "optional style" issues. I'll leave the discussion of this aspect to SlimVirgin, since I don't really care about the presence of the template code one way or another.

The other issue, however, is the question of citation style rather than template use. The templates—at least as they're currently implemented—will generate citations in a particular style (MLA, if I'm not mistaken). Inserting them in an article that already uses that style would bring us back to the first issue, since it would be invisible to the reader; but inserting them in an article that uses a different style (e.g. CMS) would be a reader-visible style change, which is explicitly prohibited without the consensus of the article's other editors. Kirill 17:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's because the reader-editor distinction breaks down on Misplaced Pages that we have to look at how the page is read in edit mode too, and there's no question that these templates make pages harder to edit, and especially to copy edit, which can lead to poor writing. I'll post an example here later. SlimVirgin 17:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Example of the kind of problem templates cause (and this is by no means the worst I've seen -- the more contentious the article, the worse it is, because the more citations it needs):

From 1994 to 2000, Wales served as research director at Chicago Options Associates, a ] and ] ] in ].<ref name="qanda">{{cite news|title=Q&A: Jimmy Wales, Misplaced Pages founder|author=]|url=http://qanda.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1042|work=]|date=]|accessdate=2006-07-11}}</ref> By "speculating on interest rate and foreign-currency fluctuations" he had soon earned enough to "support himself and his wife for the rest of their lives," according to Daniel Pink of ].<ref name=bookstopshere>{{cite news|url=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html?pg=3|title=The Book Stops Here|date=]|accessdate=2006-10-09|publisher=]|last=Pink|first=Daniel H.}}</ref> During this time one of the projects Wales undertook was the creation of the ] ], a website featuring ] ]s that, according to ], meant the site "found itself positioned as the ] of the ]".<ref>Poe, Marshall. "". ''The Atlantic Monthly'', ]. Retrieved on ].</ref> For a time the company sold erotic photographs<ref name=accessforall>{{cite news | last = Brennen | first = Jensen | title = Access for All | journal = Chronicle of Philanthropy | volume = 18 | issue = 18 | publisher = Chronicle of Higher Education, Inc. | location = USA | date = ] | accessdate =2008-01-16}}</ref> and Wales described the site as having had "a market similar to say ] magazine. So it‘s kind of a guy-oriented search engine".<ref name="qanda"/> Although Wales is no longer connected with the company his involvement with Bomis has been criticised with questions frequently asked about the nature of its content.<ref>{{cite news | last = Mangu-Ward | first = Katherine | title = Misplaced Pages and beyond: Jimmy Wales' sprawling vision | journal = Reason | volume = 39 | issue = 2 | pages = 21 | publisher = Reason Foundation | date = June 2007 | accessdate = 2008-01-16}} </ref><ref name="wirednews">{{cite news |last=Hansen|first=Evan|title=Misplaced Pages Founder Edits Own Bio |work=]|publisher=] |url=http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,69880,00.html|accessdate=2006-02-14}}</ref> Bomis also provided the initial funding for the ] project.<ref name=bookstopshere>{{cite web|url=http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/wiki.html?topic=wiki|title=The Book Stops Here|date=]|accessdate=2006-10-09|publisher=Wired|last=Pink|first=Daniel H.}}</ref>

Some people get round this by having the template stretched out vertically, but that makes it even worse if there are lots of them. SlimVirgin 18:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

True enough. (To be fair, this is partially due to our having footnote text inline to begin with; even without using the templates, dense footnotes—particularly footnotes with discursive text of their own—will make editing more difficult, particularly for someone not familiar with the text.) Kirill 18:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

(<-)Why is that worse? In the regular view they are invisible, and in the edit view, it makes quick identification of text vs. cite extremely easy; just look for a horizontal line of text. -- Avi (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

In principle, one could make a statement in this guideline that citation templates should not be added against consensus. However, one could not make the statement that freehand citations should not be added against consensus, because the citation templates only handle the sources that the template editors have thought of. From time to time, one will find a source that the existing templates cannot accommodate. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Here's a closer representation of how the above example might more properly look in edit mode...

/Citation templates example

--SallyScot (talk) 19:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

First, that's not what it looks like because I copied it exactly. But even if it were, you can still see how hard it would be to create any kind of decent writing with these templates in the way. Plus there's simply no point to them. People who know how to fill in the templates properly can write refs without them. People who don't know how to do it make mistakes and fill them in wrongly, so you end up with inconsistency. And as others have said, if introduced on a page using a different style, you end up with a mishmash of styles. SlimVirgin 19:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You've argued that the templates stretched out vertically would make the layout even worse. User: Avarham questioned this. So I'm not sure what your "that's not what it looks like because I copied it exactly" issue is about really. If I've made the example look even worse as you say then surely that's only further supporting your contention that it's hard to create any kind of decent writing with these templates in the way. --SallyScot (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat related to this is Bugzilla Bug 12498, which contains draft code to implement a cite.php extension enabling named refs to be declared outside of the article prose, and to allow editor control of the order in which the cites appear in the <References /> expansion. All that need appear within the article prose would be a ref like <Ref name=whatever />. It is currently awaiting review. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That will be very helpful. I found an even worse example yesterday. Try editing this for flow. :-) SlimVirgin 13:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

In an interview with the '']'', Morton stated that he asked Cruise for an interview, but was turned down: "I asked Tom for an interview and he declined. The Church of Scientology has got a very controversial reputation and that is what he is linked with. An unauthorized biography would essentially be a compromise. . . . I want to investigate it without any kind of fetters."<ref>{{cite news | last =Staff | first = | coauthors = | title =Tom Cruise biographer Andrew Morton defends his unauthorized book | work =] | pages = | language = | publisher = | date =], ] | url =http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gi2ILpMTEyM_2o4rOKSi9vj1lnxQ | accessdate =2008-01-18 }}</ref> Morton hired private investigator and former adult film actor ] to investigate Cruise's private life.<ref name="titlePAUL BARRESI SUPERSTAR">{{cite web |url=http://www.hotbottoms.com/video_prev/baressi/baressi.html |title=PAUL BARRESI SUPERSTAR |accessdate=2008-01-17 |format= |work=}}</ref><ref name="titlepaul baressi - porn star and director - dvd and videos and more - filmography - iafd.com - internet adult film database">{{cite web |url=http://www.iafd.com/person.rme/perfid=PBaressi/gender=m/Paul_Barresi.htm |title=paul baressi - porn star and director - dvd and videos and more - filmography - iafd.com - internet adult film database |accessdate=2008-01-17 |format= |work=}}</ref><ref name="churcher">{{cite news | last =Churcher | first =Sarah | coauthors =Emily Maddick | title =Tom Cruise fury as Diana author hires gay actor to probe private life | work =Daily Mail | pages = | language = | publisher = | date = ], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref><ref>{{cite news | last =Staff | first = | coauthors = | title =Royal biographer and a porn star anger Cruise | work =] | pages = | language = | publisher = | date =], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref> He also consulted with ] attorney Graham Berry.<ref>{{cite news | last =Staff | first = | coauthors = | title =Morton moves on from legal defeat with life of Cruise | work =The Evening Standard | pages = | language = | publisher = | date =], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref><ref>{{cite news | last =Zwecker | first =Bill | coauthors = | title =Biographer's Cruise work will probably lack usual 'as-told-to' label | work =] | pages = | language = | publisher = | date = ], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref> Baressi stated he had begun investigating Cruise after his marriage to ] ended, but after six years of research on the actor had not been able to find any evidence that Cruise was gay.<ref name="grover">{{cite news | last =Grover | first =Sally | coauthors = | title =Detective Gets 'In Touch' And Confirms Tom Cruise Is Straight | work =All Headline News: Celebrity News Service | pages = | language = | publisher =AHN Media Corp | date =], ] | url =http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009237994 | accessdate = 2007-11-22 }}</ref> Baressi gave all of his research to Morton, and later told ''InTouch'' magazine: "Everything I have found, and everything I know, points to Tom being heterosexual."<ref name="grover" /> Morton also traveled to ] to interview people who knew Cruise when he was filming '']''.<ref>{{cite news | last =Staff | first = | coauthors = | title =Longoria takes a fall | work =] | pages = | language = | publisher = | date =], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref> Several ] employees were interviewed about Cruise's termination by ].<ref name="intouch" /> The book had initially been planned for a February 2006 publication date.<ref>{{cite news | last =Staff | first = | coauthors = | title =Latin American video awards postponed | work =] | pages = | language = | publisher = | date =], ] | url = | accessdate = }}</ref>

---

I'll have a go at editing that one for flow if you like, but a couple of things to take into account I'd say are, firstly, judgment based largely on extreme cases doesn't necessarily make for good policy, secondly, perhaps more importantly, bear in mind that if you want to see the information using inline full citations then it has to be included somehow anyway. All the citation templates really do is identify the parameters, if you have lots of freehand citations then they're inevitably going to break up the flow too.

To that end I've updated the earlier example to also include an edit mode representation without using citation templates (i.e. freehand) for fairer comparison :-)

/Citation templates example

--SallyScot (talk) 15:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Second example edit mode representations done. These are: with citation templates unaligned (as above); with citation templates aligned (and the empty citation parameters removed); and without citation parameters (i.e. freehand).

/Citation templates second example

--SallyScot (talk) 22:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Commenting on SlimVirgin's horrific example above, I'm not convinced that the use of templates vs. hand-formatted cites is the culprit here which causes the edit-flow problems. I have converted the the template-based citations in that example to hand-formated inline citations, with the following results:

In an interview with the '']'', Morton stated that he asked Cruise for an interview, but was turned down: "I asked Tom for an interview and he declined. The Church of Scientology has got a very controversial reputation and that is what he is linked with. An unauthorized biography would essentially be a compromise. . . . I want to investigate it without any kind of fetters."<ref>Staff. "", , ], ]. Retrieved on ], ]. </ref> Morton hired private investigator and former adult film actor ] to investigate Cruise's private life.<ref name="titlePAUL BARRESI SUPERSTAR">, Retrieved on ].</ref><ref name="titlepaul baressi - porn star and director - dvd and videos and more - filmography - iafd.com - internet adult film database">, Retrieved on ].</ref><ref name="churcher">Churcher, Sarah; Emily Maddick "Tom Cruise fury as Diana author hires gay actor to probe private life", ''Daily Mail''], ].</ref><ref>Staff. "Royal biographer and a porn star anger Cruise", '''', ], ].</ref> He also consulted with ] attorney Graham Berry.<ref>Staff. "Morton moves on from legal defeat with life of Cruise", ''The Evening Standard'', ], ].</ref><ref>Zwecker, Bill. "Biographer's Cruise work will probably lack usual 'as-told-to' label", '']'', ], ].</ref> Baressi stated he had begun investigating Cruise after his marriage to ] ended, but after six years of research on the actor had not been able to find any evidence that Cruise was gay.<ref name="grover">Grover, Sally. "", ''All Headline News: Celebrity News Service'', AHN Media Corp, ], ]. Retrieved on ].</ref> Baressi gave all of his research to Morton, and later told ''InTouch'' magazine: "Everything I have found, and everything I know, points to Tom being heterosexual."<ref name="grover" /> Morton also traveled to ] to interview people who knew Cruise when he was filming '']''.<ref>Staff. "Longoria takes a fall", '']'', ], ]</ref> Several ] employees were interviewed about Cruise's termination by ].<ref name="intouch" /> The book had initially been planned for a February 2006 publication date.<ref>Staff. "Latin American video awards postponed", '']'', ], ]</ref> -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Comparative examples with edit mode representations

It's completely one-sided to go looking around for particularly horrendous examples, implying that they're largely the fault of citation template usage, without also including comparative examples of how the same content might look without template usage.

I have attempted to address this by showing comparative examples with fairly realistic edit mode representations. However, if you looked at the first example earlier you may have seen an intermediate version which had been changed by User:SlimVirgin into something which (as far as I could see) did not have realistic edit mode representations. However, I'm prepared to be reasonable, give the benefit of the doubt, and assume SlimVirgin's purpose was simply to include into the comparison the original unaligned citation template examples, and that the hacking of the edit mode representation was just an unintentional misuderstanding. Anyway, the idea is to show representions including a realistic looking editor typeface (a monopitch teletext font) within editor like scrolling windows, so, here they are again if you've not seen the fixed versions:

/Citation templates example - Jimbo Wales excerpt
/Citation templates second example - Tom Cruise excerpt

The two examples each show show three representations:
1) with citation templates unaligned (as they were found originally);
2) with citation templates aligned (re. debate as to whether this improves or worsens); and
3) without citation parameters (is freehand better than both of the above?).

--SallyScot (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

On the wording

Re. the sentence - "Because they are optional and contentious, citation templates should not be added against consensus, and editors should not change articles from one style to another if there are objections."

I would like to remove this. It does not make logical sense. It implies that citation templates should not be added against consensus because they are optional. This is a non sequitur. For example, creating a Misplaced Pages account for editing unprotected pages is optional, it does not follow that someone editing anonymously needs to get consensus first. That's not what optional means.

It also inappropriately shouts "editors should not change articles from one style to another". When in practice you should find editors more relaxed and accommodating, and you'll see articles happily containing both freehand and template citations. The overemphasised wording here just unnecessarily encourages people to make fuss over something which doesn't need to be such an issue.

I'd also like to change the second sentence's reference - "subject to agreement with other editors on the article" to say "unless their use is contrary to the established consensus of editors on the article"

The concept of consensus is key, objections could otherwise be of any kind, such as against consensus and quite unreasonable. The wording should encourage consensus, not simply the idea ultimately of stubborn veto.

--SallyScot (talk) 00:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

SallyScot, from the time the citation templates were invented until October 2007 the guideline had that (or substantially similar) wording. In October you unilaterally removed these words from the guideline, without, I might add, even a comment stating you were doing so. The reasons for keeping the wording are obvious; the citation templates are a complex language that add huge amounts of bulk to articles for only dubious benefits - in this case, uniformity of citation format. However, even that benefit is illusory - you would be hard pressed to find any reasonably lengthy article that had uniform citations, even among those that use citation templates. The few articles that do have uniform citation styles inevitably have someone closely monitoring them to weed out alternative styles, which are continually introduced by new editors. In addition, the citation templates are themselves often improperly used; for example, I've found people using the web citation template for articles that appeared in print, solely because the article was reproduced on the internet. Citation templates are awkward and complex, and multiply like roaches - currently I count over 80 of them in Category:Citation templates. Citation templates are made for people who like to fiddle with templates, not for people who actually are trying to write articles. That is why people object to them so strongly, and that is why this wording must remain in the guideline. Jayjg 03:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Re the point above - "In October you unilaterally removed these words from the guideline, without, I might add, even a comment stating you were doing so." - For reference, the edit in question was - 18:31, 27 October 2007 - It was accompanied with the following edit summary... (→How to cite sources -make example vol number different to page number for clarity + some Full citation templates rewording) --SallyScot (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Jayjg, your response does not really deal with the issues raised. In fact, it misses the main point entirely, going off instead on a sweeping POV tirade against citation templates generally.

I have not argued for and do not insist that everybody should use Citation templates. This is a key difference between our positions. You appear to want to discourage citation template use entirely. - Whereas I'm only arguing for wording in this guideline which actually reflects the current consensus as I understand it, namely that "The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged".

I do apologise if my earlier edits were felt to be lacking in terms of appropriate edit summary or sufficient comment. I don't seek to impose unilaterally and I am happy to work toward a consensus. In my defence however I should point out that the edit version I've been trying to work toward was largely User:Wtmitchell (aka Boracay Bill)'s and not solely my own. This, in addition to User:Kirill and User:Avi's discussion comments, suggested to me otherwise that overall discouragement of template use is not a consensus view. In fact, before your contribution we were dealing principally only with User:SlimVirgin's objections. And SlimVirgin, seemingly disbelieving, posted on my user talk page querying whether I might have multiple accounts. To which I have to say quite categorically that neither User:Wtmitchell, User:Kirill, User:Avi, or any other user, is a sock-puppet of mine.

Please try to deal with the points that I've actually raised. If they are too much to swallow all at once, then we can break them down and go through them one at a time. Establishing true consensus is sometimes a slow process which requires patience on all sides.

So, bearing that in mind, can we not agree, isn't it the case that the current wording incorrectly implies that citation templates should not be added against consensus because they are optional? Isn't this a conclusion that does not follow from its premise? For example, creating a Misplaced Pages account for editing unprotected pages is optional, and it simply does not follow that someone editing anonymously needs to get consensus before doing so. That is not what optional means.

- Further discussion is welcomed.

mini references:

User:Kirill - "I don't really care about the presence of the template code one way or another" - above - 17:51, 18 January 2008.
User:Avi - "in the edit view, it makes quick identification of text vs. cite extremely easy; just look for a horizontal line of text" - above 18:15, 18 January 2008.
User:Wtmitchell - "Change "subject to agreement" to "unless contrary to consensus"" - project page edit summary - 20:11, 17 January 2008.
User:Wtmitchell - "Because this page neither encourages nor discourages use of citation templates, remove boldface discouragement regarding their use" - project page edit summary - 03:49, 17 January 2008.
User:SlimVirgin - "I'm not keen on seeing someone in a protracted revert on a guideline who may have tried to do the same thing before, under a different name." - SallyScot's user talk page - 20:45, 21 January 2008.

--SallyScot (talk) 20:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Sally, the primary points are that the templates rarely provide the benefits claimed for them, particularly consistency. Indeed, with over 80 of them, how could they possibly do so? On the other hand, the issues raised regarding them are (arcane language, bloats the article, inflexible) are entirely valid. What typically happens is that an article writer goes along merrily writing and editing an article. Then a template wonk comes along and "improves" the article by putting citations in templates. The article writer is obviously miffed; the additions have only made his job of editing harder, not easier. Yet what recourse does he have to remove them? He is thus forced to accept this unhelpful imposition, or edit war rather than write articles. The guideline has always rightly recognized this reasonable disaffection for citation templates by including a strongly worded message to template wonks not to go adding them against consensus. Jayjg 03:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The templates always include more text than is necessary, and so they invariably add to the problem. Plus they're inflexible, they can introduce inconsistency, and they don't prevent errors. Above all, they're unnecessary. It takes less time just to write the citation -- whether a long or a short one -- without adding a template structure around it.

— SlimVirgin, 14:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly disagree with the above. Citation templates allow for a consistent display of reference; allow for many options such a sadding LCCN's, DOI's, OCLC's, ISBN's, a consistent format for journal volume/issue numbering, the ability to have a consistent format for accessdates, which is critical when quoting URL's, not to mention the ability to have the original and archived copy, and the text that is added is just four braces, some pipes, some equals signs, and intuitively-named parameters. http linking and wikilinking for most entries, as well as italicization, is handled seamlessly by the template, further adding to a consistent display. Error prevention is irrelevant, as hand-coded ref's are just as prone, if not more so, as there is no helpful parameter name in the field. Inflexibility is addressed above, and the introduction of inconsistency can be equally blamed on non-template users as template users, Slim. As for more text; since the text is invisible in view mode, it can only be an issue in edit mode. And the horizontal format of untemplated references is just as confusing, if not more so, do to the absence of the pipes and equals signs that tip the editor off that this is a cite and not text. So, Slim, your arguments are not convincing, and, what it boils down to, is a matter of taste that should not be imposed one way or the other. Please do not forget WP:OWN; not to mention unfounded accusations of sockpuppetry. -- Avi (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

And as for Jay's comments, I have to agree with Sally again. Please see above for point-by-point discussion about sice, uniformity, and complexity. As for using cite web for a print article, it depends. If the URL was used as a convenience link, then you are correct. But, if the citation is the URL, the fact that it was printed is just as irrelevant as a printed article's being posted on the web, Jay. As for you comment “Citation templates are made for people who like to fiddle with templates, not for people who actually are trying to write articles,” besides it being both false and fallacious, it is an insult to those of us who try and write articles that are properly referenced and æsthetically pleasing in view mode. Please speak for yourself and restrain yourself from making blanket assumptions about others. Also, making invalid sweeping generalizations of appeal to emotion does not serve to further intelligent discourse about the topic at hand. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 22:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Revised wording proposal

Re. the concern raised by User:Jayjg above "...Yet what recourse does he have to remove them?" Well, believe it or not, I actually quite agree with the underlying sentiment here. However, it has to work both ways surely. And I don't think an appropriate sense of give and take is clear from the current guideline wording.

As a result, I propose the following revision…

The use of citation templates is on the whole neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find templates helpful, arguing that they help maintain a consistent style across articles; while other editors prefer writing freehand, saying that they find templates distracting when used inline in the article text and arguing that they make it harder to edit. Given the diversity of opinion, editors are encouraged overall to be respectful, tolerant and accommodating of the different preferred approaches as long as the results render similarly well to the reader. Pre-existing citations added by other editors should not subsequently be changed from freehand to template, or vice-versa, if there are objections.

--SallyScot (talk) 18:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiment, but it seems long. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Or, a shorter version (i.e. with a footnote)...

The use of citation templates is on the whole neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find templates helpful, others argue that they're a distraction. Given the diversity of opinion, editors are encouraged overall to be respectful and accommodating of the different preferred approaches as long as the results render similarly well to the reader. Pre-existing citations added by other editors should not subsequently be changed from freehand to template, or vice-versa, if there are objections.

Notes

1. Some editors find templates helpful, arguing that they help maintain a consistent style across articles; while other editors prefer writing freehand, saying that they find templates distracting when used inline in the article text and arguing that they make it harder to edit.

--SallyScot (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not the templates, it's the referencing system

The issue here is not the citation templates, it's the use of full citations directly in footnotes. If the full citations were moved to the end of the article, and the footnotes only gave author, year, and page number, there would be no issue. This system is used in several featured articles, I believe. Or Harvard referencing could be used, which is even more editor-friendly. For example, see the work in progress at Mathematical logic. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The templates always include more text than is necessary, and so they invariably add to the problem. Plus they're inflexible, they can introduce inconsistency, and they don't prevent errors. Above all, they're unnecessary. It takes less time just to write the citation -- whether a long or a short one -- without adding a template structure around it. SlimVirgin 14:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

However, when used at a the very end in a references section, the templates encourage consistency when possible (of course they don't cover every possible situation). See Mathematical logic#References and its source. In that article, many of the references are not simple enough to only use the citation template, but its use does help with consistency, and gives HTML anchors to which the in-text references can link. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The templates encourage consistency only insofar as all editors use them, use the same ones, and use them correctly. That, however, is rarely the case. Jayjg 03:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Not to argue that it doesn't have its place, but the style used in the work in progress at Mathematical logic article pointed to above can draw a {{nofootnotes}} tag, and placement of that tag may be justifiable. IMO, intrusion of fotnotes into the article prose needs to be minimized while still providing inline footnoting capability. I'll again mention Bugzilla Bug 12498, which attempts to do this. (I filed that bug, but I'm not wedded to the specifics of the solution suggested there. An alternative approach would be fine with me if the approach taken there is judged suboptimal.) -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It uses Harvard referencing; anyone who puts on a nofootnotes tag gets a free trout. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

(hangs head) I missed that at a quick look, I'm so used to seeing superscripted cite.php refs in WP articles. I've often seen articles formatted similarly but which deserved {{nofootnotes}} tags. Not to defocus this to a general gabfest about wikitext alternatives for references, but I've seen similar utilization of the ID element provided by {{Citation}} done with e.g., (], p. 686) vs. {{Harv|Katz|1998|p=686)}} vs. <Sup>{{Harv|Katz|1998|p=686)}}</Sup> vs. <ref>{{Harvnb|Katz|1998|p=686)}}</ref>, etc. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 02:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I have just created Bugzilla bug 12796, billed as "Enable editors to control footnote ordering and to insert wikitex between footnotes. Also declutter article prose." The decluttering of the article prose is done by optionally allowing editers to declare footnotes in a block (grouped and ordered as desired, with un-numbered header wikitext insertable before/between/following the declared footnotes). The bug includes cite.php code with changes to implement this, plus a test case to demonstrate the added functionality. I've marked its priority as NORMAL, but I think that it should have a higher priority than that. This bug replaces previously-mentioned Bug 12498, which I've marked "WONTFIX". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Hi Bill, Just to be clear, so you could use them like this, yes?

The Sun is pretty big,<ref name=Miller2005 /> but the Moon is not so big.<ref name=Brown2006 />

== References ==
{{reflist}}

<ref decl=Brown2006>Brown, R (2006). "Size of the Moon", Scientific American, 51(78).</ref>
<ref decl=Miller2005>Miller, E (2005). "The Sun", Academic Press.</ref>

--SallyScot (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias against templates

You (SlimVirgin) reverted my edit which was intended to make it so that this guideline does not express a preference one way or the other for having templates or not having them. If you think the guideline should specifically say that not using the templates is better than using them, you should get a consensus to that effect (probably at TfD) - otherwise this guideline should recommend against unilateral changes in either direction, rather than forbidding them in one direction (adding templates) while silently endorsing the opposite. —Random832 21:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Put simply, if there is a rule saying that I can't go in and change all of someone's citations to templates, but there is no rule saying they can't go in and change all the templates on another article to not using templates, that is saying it is NOT an optional style difference, and that is not something that the community seems to agree with. —Random832 21:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the edits to this page, but removing the templates from a page that already uses them would be a poor way to spend your time. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, there's no need for a template once the citation is properly written, so there shouldn't be a problem removing them. What the guideline is saying is that they shouldn't be added to a page over objections, given how hard they make the page to edit. If we want well-written articles, templates tend to get in the way of that. That's the only point. SlimVirgin 21:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(editconflict)Honestly, I'm not a fan of these templates anymore - i used to be, but ever since the stuff about date wikilinking, etc, it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. But unless the templates themselves are deprecated, I see no reason to permit people to go in and remove them any more than to let people add them.(/editconflict) I don't think there is a consensus that the templates are not indefinitely useful. And, for the record, I think that the problem is the fact that the whole citation's inline, and IMO it's not substantially more readable without templates than with them. There needs to be a way to define the content of a reference somewhere other than in the middle of a sentence. and I have filed bugzilla:12765 to that end. —Random832 21:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, Templates aren't what makes articles hard to edit, it's placing footnotes which are intended to appear elsewhere inline in the article prose which makes articles hard to edit. Earlier, you provided a horrific example of how templated citations got in the way of editing. I hand-converted your horrific templated example to just-as-horrific hand-formatted citations which also got in the way of article editing -- no improvement at all with hand-formated citations vs. templated citations. (see here). Again, Templates aren't what makes articles hard to edit, it's placing footnotes which are intended to appear elsewhere inline in the article prose which makes articles hard to edit. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Random832: there is. You can just put author, date,pages in the footnotes, and references in their own section. Or you can use Harvard referencing. As I pointed out somewhere else, the real issue here is the use of full citations in footnotes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Random832 and Carl (CBM) Please look at bugzilla bug 12796, which addresses this. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There is certainly a problem with people removing templates. I am quite sure there is no consensus that templates get in the way of a well written page; otherwise we wouldn't have them still. Now I need to go look at the edits to the page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin: Please look at Bugzilla bug 12796, which provides a way of removing footnote clutter from the flow of the article prose. (whether the clutter consists of textual asides, complicated hand-formatted citations, template-formatted citations, something else entirely, or some combination of the foregoing) -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(<-)Also the term over objection is inherently flawed. That implies one person, such as SlimVirgin can put up a fuss and point to the wording. Any change, be it to add or remove, needs consensus. More than that, if the article is undergoing edits by a number of people, and the usage is pretty much evenly spread in terms of usage or non-usage of templates in any given ref, it would be improper to either cause all ref's to be templatized, or to remove all of the templates against consensus. An article with an existing distinctive style (be it templates, Harvard, {{note_label}}, etc.) should not be changed against consensus. -- Avi (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

And yes, CBM, there is a problem with people feeling that it is "all right" to remove templates, but not to add them. -- Avi (talk) 22:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I was going to say, at some point when an article gets long enough, the active editors should discuss on the talk page and pick a style to be used. This is completely parallel to the British/American dialect issue, and should be handled the same way. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Those of you who are changing this are forgetting what's behind it. We don't force style changes on editors. If an article has been written using Harvard refs, and if there's no problem with it, we don't turn up and change to footnotes. Or if it's in British English, and again is unproblematic, we don't change to American English. This is a principle that's been upheld by ArbCom several times. Ditto with templates. Particularly so with templates, because they inevitably cause the writing to deteriorate. I'm not aware of any Wikipedian who is a regular article writer who likes them. SlimVirgin 22:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because you are'nt looking hard enough . Unless, of course, you have a new definition of "regular" article writer? -- Avi (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Avi, your approach to this is illustrative of the problem. You told me that you don't write articles. You said you're a wikignome, and that you go around imposing these templates on existing articles. What you're in effect saying is that the writers can go hang -- once they've done their job, you will impose your citation style, and if that means they can't write anymore because they can't see what they're doing, tough. That's exactly the attitude this guideline seeks to protect editors against. SlimVirgin 22:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Right. We don't force style changes on editors. So how is it that you use that to justify removing my edit, which said not to force the style change of "templates -> no templates"? —Random832 22:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Slim, no one is trying to force templates into articles; we are concerned by the seeming bias towards their removal against consensus ("over objections" for example, or only mentioning "adding"). If an article is in the process of being built, and the style is not clear, there can be no more reason to remove the templates than to add them. Everyone agrees that an existing, established style needs to be maintained, per the various ArbCom rulings, but no one style should be affected by a negative or positive predisposition, Slim. The way this guideline was worded was leading to a distinct bias against the use of templates, which is counter any of the ArbCom rulings you were referencing.

And as an aside, I never said I do not write articles (please see Actuary or Circumcision or Abbey Mills Mosque or Actuarial science or Jack Coggins for some examples). I also like to enhance others' work by ensuring that facts are cited, links are corrected, interested readers can find more information, and policies and guidelines are upheld in both the letter and the spirit, Slim. -- Avi (talk) 22:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC) -- Avi (talk) 22:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation templates 2

• Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus. I don't think this is anything to do with templates. Presumably this refers to changing footnote format to Harvard, or whatever. I don't think it matters whether editors use templates or not, since the reader will not notice.

Hi Qp, Have you been through the first Citation templates section above? - The SallyScot section has some bearing too. --SallyScot (talk) 18:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• the "Cite xxx" family separates elements with a full stop, and gives page ranges as plain numbers, while the "Citation" template separates elements with a comma, and precedes page ranges with "pp." Thus, these two families should not be mixed in the same article. Well, yes, that would be a mess. But it is normal to use both a comma style and a full-stop style in the same article. The comma style is used for notes and the full-stop style for the bibliography or references list. qp10qp (talk) 16:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Qp, the advice not to change to templates over objections is that many editors find it harder to edit the text with templates in it, especially when there are lots of them. So editors are asked not to arrive at a page and switch to templates unless editors on the page agree. SlimVirgin 19:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What you have just said is, in my opinion, better than "editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus". Although the latter is true, it sounds as if it is about citation formats such as Harvard, footnotes, or whatever, and not about templates. qp10qp (talk) 22:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. What I wrote above is more or less what it said before. It was changed by pro-template people, and is now less clear. SlimVirgin 23:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not to say that all editors agree with the current wording of course, or that its balance and clarity couldn't be improved. --SallyScot (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The "cite xxx" thing was recently added by Gerry Ashton. I couldn't judge whether it was problematic or not, so I just left it. If you feel it complicates things, we could remove it. I think the details of how to use these templates belong on the templates page anyway, not here. SlimVirgin 19:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it makes it very complicated. Whether the article is consistent about using pp. or whatever is not really a template issue. That should be decided before referencing, whether by templates or not. Templates are alien to me. I'm particularly annoyed when I see them used in the same way in both notes and bibliographies, in which case I feel entitled to remove them in one or the other (I haven't got time to go look at a template Smörgåsbord page to choose a second template for the page). Templating should not be an excuse to write note references in the same way as bibliography entries, in my opinion. (Turabian has a neat way of showing the difference between the two styles (N & B) and we should perhaps take a leaf out of that book, which explains things much more clearly than we do.)

I can just about tolerate templates in bibliographies, but I agree they are a nightmare to edit around in the main text. And when one tries to fill one in (to be consistent with an existing convention), one finds required fields missing or intractable: rather than go and find the fields somewhere, I take the short route and turn the templated note into a freehand one. Voila. Then I am liberated to give more information about editors etc. (I find the books I use are often untemplatable: for instance, today I referenced a preface by A. L. Rowse to a book of letters by John Chamberlain edited with an introduction and interspersed matter by Elizabeth Thomson: at different times I needed to ref to Rowse, Thomson, and Chamberlain. Templates don't have the flexibility to handle that, but freehand it's a cinch.) qp10qp (talk) 22:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a critical point; there are now over 80 templates, so that even knowing what they all are, much less the thousands of permutations of fields in them, is an impossible task - and yet, they are still too inflexible to use in many situations! Jayjg 22:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

And they are very useful in others. So your point is? -- Avi (talk) 01:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is that there are disadvantages without any clear advantages. They make articles harder to edit, they don't introduce consistency, they don't prevent errors. The biggest supporter of them on this page edited one recently with last name, first name for the first author in the citation, then the other way round for the other two. I had to go and fix it by hand. The citation didn't prevent the error, and may even have caused it because they cause such confusion. But I really think all this talk of templates needs to go on the template page. It's not a major issue for this guideline. SlimVirgin 01:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

In some editors opinions (to wit, you and Jay for example). In other editors' opinions they provide consistency of style, automatic linking of important data such as URL's to titles, OCLS, DOI, ISBN's, archived links and dates, etc., and allow for easy recognition of text vs. citation while editing. In a nutshell, Slim, some people like them, some do not, so leave it up to the editors on that page without predisposition to any one side, which this guideline seemed to do in a not-so-surreptitious manner. This page should be neutral on citations, overtly AND covertly. -- Avi (talk) 01:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

As has been shown, the claimed benefits are illusory, and the critical point for this page is that their inclusion in existing articles has always been controversial, which is why the guideline has always contained very clear admonitions not to force them on articles without agreement. Jayjg 01:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

People who see themselves as article writers -- who care about good writing -- tend to dislike them, for the simple reason that they make good writing harder. For that reason, we don't allow editors to arrive at a page they may never had edited before and impose templates on the people who actually wrote it. That's just a matter of basic respect. In the same way, we don't allow people to turn up and impose American spelling, or other stylistic issues. Article writers -- the people who created it and who are maintaining it -- have to be allowed a certain leverage, and people who go around making only stylistic changes have to respect the conventions of the page -- assuming the page is in order, of course. SlimVirgin 01:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. For better or for worse (and, I think, mostly for better), precedence matters on Misplaced Pages pages when it comes to stylistic issues. There have been any number of ArbCom cases that have confirmed that. Jayjg 01:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) A problem with citation templates is there is no one place (so far as I know) to look to see what style the various templates try to achieve. As far as I know, the editors interested in developing each template do their own thing. If, for example, "Cite book" put "pp." before a page range and "Cite journal" didn't, there would be no place to look to decide which one should be changed. Also, so far as I know, the various sitation templates do not document whether they are intended for use in endnotes or bibliographies. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"Subject to agreement" phrase in template section

There seems to be a bit of a disagreement as to the presence of the bolded sentence in the section below:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit....

I am of the firm opinion that this predisposes articles not to use templates, because it sets the standard at "objection" which means that any one editor can come and complain. I believe the standard should be like any other guideline, which is consensus. I think the best course of action is to leave the sentence out completely, as their use should be determined by the initial authors of the article the same way as Harvard vs. Note citation is used. There are other editors who have a problem removing this sentence. I would like to see discussion both pro- and con- so that we can work out what is best for this guideline in this area. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 19:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It means that you shouldn't arrive at pages to impose templates against the will of the editors on the page. It's the same with any style change, as explained above. SlimVirgin 19:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Then the suggested version (shown below) should be completely adequate as it specifically states that (in bold letters to boot):

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

I believe that the text, as brought above, makes it crystal clear that "you shouldn't arrive at pages to impose templates against the will of the editors on the page," without having the connotation that templates are weaker than other styles in that consensus is not necessary; only objection. As a compromise, would you consider the following (sentence changed is in Italics):

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors unless against pre-existing consensus on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

I still think the guideline is clear without the sentence, though, and am interested in other opinons. -- Avi (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The reason this is happening, in case anyone wonders, is that Avi turned up at New antisemitism, an article he had never edited before so far as I know, and changed the refs to citation templates. He was resisted, and revert-warred war to keep them in, then gave up, after posting various angry messages. He then came here to change the guideline so that it can't be quoted against him if he wants to do this in future.

We get this a lot -- people who turn up policies and guidelines to change them after finding the policy stopped them from doing something they wanted to do. These changes are almost always a bad idea, because they focus only on one incident or one point of view, and ignore the bigger picture or other people's interests. SlimVirgin 19:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Slim, Slim, such vitriol is unbecoming in you--no matter. As regards New Antisemitism I concur that after strong sentiment from you and Jay adding templates is inappropriate due to the fact that a pre-existing style had been created. My concern with you was what I perceived as intolerable rudeness, which I am currently drafting an off-line e-mail for you, as there is no need to involve other editors here in any personal disagreements you and I have.

That, however, in no way shape of form changes the inherent bias implied in the current wording. You may not like me, which is fine; the right of free association is upheld by the US Bill of Rights which governs Misplaced Pages (due to its location in Florida). However, that does not give you, or anyone, free reign to make changes, or maintain inequities, in guidelines against consensus. The fact that it may have taken a particular incident to alert me to the inequity in the current wording is just as irrelevant as your ad hominem misrepresentation of the reason for my edits. Furthermore, even if you were correct, which you are not, your response above is still fallacious as you are neither repudiating nor even discussing the points I raised, but theorized as to my intentions, which, may be fun for you, but does not serve to answer the valid points I raised.

So, in a nutshell, my dear Slim, please save your excoriation of me for e-mail and chat, and kindly keep this page discussing the problems with the guidelines, and not the problems you have with me, Sally (whom you accused of sockpuppetry, and seemingly only because she had the temerity to disagree with you), or any other editor in particular. I await a reasoned response. Thanks, -- Avi (talk) 21:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

We have no personal agreements or disagreements, Avi. No one was rude to you, as I recall. You, on the other hand, started wondering what I was trying to hide by removing the templates. That's how silly it got, and then you brought it to this page.

The important point is that we see this a lot at V, NOR, and here -- editors try to add something without a source, or a source that's not right in some way, or they want to impose their citation style on an article, and so they go to the policies and try to change them. But policy writing requires being able to stand back and see issues from multiple points of view. It also requires resisting the temptation to create a new rule for every experience we have. That's why I'm opposing your changes. SlimVirgin 21:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The matter of rudeness or lack thereof is not for discussion here, Slim. I will be glad to discuss it with you offline. E-mail has been sent, by-the-by. The issue here is the sentence I bolded above. You responded with your reasoning. I responded that based on that reasoning, I still do not understand why the sentence needs to remain, as the bolded part at the end of the section makes it very clear that people should not change styles against consensus. -- Avi (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The bolded part is your wording and it's not clear; you saw yourself above how a new editor here didn't know what it meant. Therefore we need to keep the rest of the text. SlimVirgin 22:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Re. "you saw yourself above how a new editor here didn't know what it meant" - If you're referring to User:qp10qp's request for clarification in the Citation templates 2 section above. My reading of this was that they were confused by what was meant by the term 'citation format'. --SallyScot (talk) 22:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Slim says - "policy writing requires being able to stand back and see issues from multiple points of view", but has also argued against citation templates earlier, saying - "how hard it would be to create any kind of decent writing with these templates in the way. Plus there's simply no point to them. People who know how to fill in the templates properly can write refs without them." Perhaps Slim could hold back on the Ad hominem circumstantial arguments and focus more on the reasoning as it is presented.

Anyway, here's how I would attempt to stand back and see the issues from multiple points of view...

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, arguing they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Given the diversity of opinion, editors are encouraged overall to be respectful and accommodating of the different preferred approaches as long as the results render similarly well to the reader. Pre-existing citations added by other editors should not subsequently be changed from freehand to template, or vice-versa, if there are objections.

--SallyScot (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The wording used to be better (by the way, I've got 89 edits to this page, so I'm not a new user: the expression "citation format" is only confusing to me insofar as it is now made to apply muddlingly both to what appears on the page and to what appears in the edit box: two different matters).

Your last sentence would be unacceptable to me: I'd rather lose it and look at improving the penultimate sentence of your draft, if we must have it. The reason I find the last sentence unacceptable is that I often change templates to freehand when I feel I can improve the presentation of references (I leave them if they are doing no harm, of course: mishmash seems to be the most common state of affairs on a page), and I don't want a stroke of the guideline to make me a miscreant or restrict my freedom to edit. I don't set out to remove templates, but it is necessary, in places, when standardising references, say for a FAR.

I'm afraid that I cannot accept an equivalence between templating and non-templating. This is because on the one hand we have had several centuries of the English language being written with words and punctuation in the right order, and a mere few years of this computer trick of putting words in the wrong order only to see them magically jump into the right order when saved. I put templates in the same category as electric toenail clippers: Shakespeare managed well enough without them and I expect his toenails were as well manicured as his sentences. I tolerate the sticky mess templates make, so long as I can manage to work around them, but the minute one interfere with my editing, out it goes. It feels like removing a corn. The truth is that many pages contain a mixture of templates and non-templates and that this mixture does no harm so long as one makes the citation system (if you know what I mean—last name first name, CMS/MLA, that sort of thing) consistent. A toasted sandwich is a toasted sandwich whether it is done under the grill or in a complicated toasted-sandwich-making contraption that is tricky to wash up: the choice of cheese is what is important (I recommend tangy red cheddar with a sprinkle of Worcestershire sauce. But each to their own).qp10qp (talk) 02:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Qp, what is your opinion about the following:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

-- Avi (talk) 02:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The last sentence is unclear, as I have said before, and possibly superfluous, but the rest is common sense. I don't think we should be telling editors what to do on this ("should not"): this is not an issue like BE/AE since it is not visible to the reader. The notion of consensus is implicit in the long-standing opening part of the above and I suspect we need not go further than that. qp10qp (talk) 02:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The current section has an extra sentence, which I have bold italicized. Do you believe that the extra sentence is necessary, unnecessary, incorrect, confusing, or irrelevant? Thanks for your answers:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them distracting when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and harder to edit. Because templates are optional and can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus.

-- Avi (talk) 02:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This was the section before it was recently changed, for the sake of comparison:

The use of citation templates is neither encouraged nor discouraged by this or any other guideline. Templates may be used at the discretion of individual editors, subject to agreement with other editors on the article. Some editors find them helpful, arguing that they maintain a consistent style across articles, while other editors find them unnecessary and annoying, particularly when used inline in the text, because they make the text harder to read in edit mode and therefore harder to edit. Because they are optional and contentious, citation templates should not be added against consensus, and editors should not change articles from one style to another if there are objections.

The issue that is key for me is that they may only be used "subject to agreement with other editors on the page" (unless of course it's a new page and there are no other editors). This prevents people from turning up at articles and imposing these templates on existing editors. SlimVirgin 02:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

But the way it is written now, it allows people to show up and remove them when the article has already had them, which is why if the sentence is removed, BOTH possibilities are covered by the existing statement of "Dont change w/o consensus". -- Avi (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Glitch in Citation accessdate= treatment

An anomaly which comes up in use of what I believe to be a standard Citation reference, is that use of "accessdate=January 20, 2008" ends up generating a red-link to January 20, 2008, while use of "accessdate=2008-01-20" does not. Seems like a bug to me, I am trying to report it here. Please advise on where it should be reported, if not here.

This came up for me in editing List of National Historic Landmarks in Oklahoma. I tried eliminating the red-link by going ahead and creating the article on January 20, 2008, but an efficient wikipedian ever-so-promptly and politely deletes the new article (as is appropriate) :) doncram (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

References:

• National Park Service (April 2007), National Historic Landmarks Survey: List of National Historic Landmarks by State (PDF), retrieved 2008-01-20{{citation}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

• National Park Service (April 2007), National Historic Landmarks Survey: List of National Historic Landmarks by State (PDF), retrieved January 20, 2008{{citation}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

This was changed in this edit. Both {{cite web}} and {{cite news}} specify accessdate in ISO format and wikilink it. Apparently Kaldari changed {{citation}} such that it's also wikilinked, which means it must be in ISO format to avoid a redlink. Gimmetrow 02:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for the informed and informative response. I gather the right place to report it is in "template talk" for the Citation template, and i raised it there (cutting and pasting from this discussion here). See Template_talk:Citation#Glitch in Citation template treatment of accessdate= field. Thanks! doncram (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

1. The issue of auto-formatting of dates will automagically resolve itself when bugzilla:4582 issue is resolved.
   (I'm on it and I'll hopefully be done in a week or two)
2. The issue with the redlink for non-ISO dates is known. That is why citation does did not link dates.
3. Would people please relax about date auto-formatting? For 99.99% of all views, dates are not formatted even if wiki-linked.
-- Fullstop (talk) 08:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Quoting hardcopy sources

User:Jack-A-Roe just added this paragraph:

When using citations that are not available online for verification, if the use of a citation is likely to be controversial or if it is questioned by other editors, it is helpful to provide a direct quote of a short passage from the cited source. The quoted text can be placed either in a footnote or on the talk page, so editors can confirm that the source supports the text as used.

The edit summary stated this was a more logical place for this paragraph, but did not explain where the paragraph came from. So, where did it come from?

Also, I don't agree with the part about using the article talk page. If the talk page gets archived frequently, the quote will be too hard to find. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

also not maintainable. If the quote is not provided by the editor what happens then?Arnoutf (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a good idea to put such quotes on the talk page if they're not crucial, for other editors to see. If the quote is crucial, it's better to place it in the footnote to avoid the archiving problem. I think these things boil down to editorial judgment at the time. SlimVirgin 18:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Finell has removed this passage, citing talk, though he didn't leave a comment here. Does anyone else object to this?

When using sources that are not on the Web, and if the material is contentious, providing a direct quote helps other editors to verify that the source supports the edit. This can be done on the talk page or in a footnote; if the quotation is crucial to understanding the edit, placing it in a footnote will give it wider exposure than adding it to a talk page.

SlimVirgin 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I deleted User:Jack-A-Roe's recent addition to the MOS. It was added with no discussion or consensus. More importantly, is is a bad idea for three reasons.

• First, it deprecates print sources that are not reproduced online, even though that is still where the majority of reliable scholarship resides. Misplaced Pages's emphasis has always been, and should remain, on the reliability of the source, not whether the source is online. Further, offline print sources that are cited are usually available to Wikipedians who want to check them—in the library.
• Second, it assumes bad faith by those who cite offline sources. Or, perhaps, it assumes bad faith by everyone—that everything that anyone submits is likely to be wrong and must be verified (as opposed to verifiable) by others. Either is unacceptable. Wikipedians who cite reliable offline sources should not be put to the special burden of supporting in advance, with direct quotations, everything that they contribute.
• Third, articles should not be larded with quotations (even in footnotes) that do not contribute to the reader's understanding of the article. Personally, I tend to use quotations from my sources, but that should be a matter of individual editorial judgment, not a guideline.

If an editor has reason to question the accuracy of another's contribution, the question should be raised on the article's Talk page. If the original contributor does not respond and no one else satisfactorily addresses the question, the question can be raised on the original contributor's Talk page, if there is one. It that doesn't settle the matter, it is up to the doubting editor to research the facts, either from the cited offline source or from other available sources. Finell (Talk) 20:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear SlimVirgin: I was already writing this and saw your comment in an edit conflict window when I tried to submit it. I believe that my edit summary said that I would be explaining my action on the Talk page, and that is what I was doing. Finell (Talk) 20:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. You raise some good points. Would it be better to have the same passage, but say that "as a matter of courtesy," some editors provide quotations? Or would your objection still stand? (I take your point that things need to be verifiable/attributable, not actually verified.) SlimVirgin 20:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I object in principle to treating print sources less favorably than online sources in any way. I've seen several less experienced Wikipedians even ask whether it is permissible to cite offline sources, when there was nothing in WP:CITE that said that online sources were even preferred; I get palpitations when I see that. I've been active online since the mid-1980s and had an Internet account before there was a Worldwide Web, so I am not anti-tech or anti-Internet. But, except for current and relatively recent developments, the best sources in most fields are still offline. That will continue to be the case until intellectual property law and the means of compensating writers and publishers catch up with 1990s technology. Until then, people should be encouraged to use books and the library in addition to, but not to the exclusion of, online sources.

If you wanted to say that where a reliable online source supports a statement in an article for which a print source is already cited, editors may consider adding the online source for the convenience of the readers, I could support that (or at least not oppose it), but only after there is a Talk page consensus for such a new guideline. But the guideline should make clear that the reliability of the source is paramount, whether online or in print, and there is no preference for online sources.

By the way, if an editor wants to document something for the benefit of future editors, the place to do it is in a <!-- hidden comment -->—not on the Talk page or in a footnote. Anything in footnotes, as in text, should only be for the benefit of readers, not editors.

Time to go back to my real work. I won't be back here for at least several hours, if then.Finell (Talk) 20:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree about the importance of not appearing to downgrade offline sources, so if it looks as though it's doing that, perhaps you're right that we should leave it. SlimVirgin 21:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

As a reader, I wouldn't mind quotes from online sources too, in some cases. —Random832 21:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's especially helpful where the online article is several pages long, and you'd have to struggle to find the relevant section. It's not always clear which passage an editor intends to use as support for his edit, and especially not when he's made a mistake and the source doesn't in fact support him. Supplying a quote on talk or in a footnote saves a lot of time. SlimVirgin 22:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

When providing a quote ina footnote/cite, it is not a bad idea to wrap it in <small>...</small> tags. Otherwise longer pieces tend to overwhelm the citation area. -- Avi (talk) 22:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps there is a reason to take the original proposal "When using sources that are not on the Web, and if the material is contentious, providing a direct quote helps other editors to verify that the source supports the edit. This can be done on the talk page or in a footnote; if the quotation is crucial to understanding the edit, placing it in a footnote will give it wider exposure than adding it to a talk page."

And instead turn it into this "When using sources where the material is contentious, providing a direct quote helps other editors verify that the source supports the edit. This can be done in a footnote; if the quotation is crucial to understanding the edit, placing it in a footnote will give it wider exposure."

Wjhonson (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I like this approach a lot; it was what I was thinking as I read the above material. No reason to disfavor non-online materials; quotes can be useful in many circumstances. A few thoughts: (1) We may as well mention that it can be helpful in multiple circumstances, although it's nice to provide the "controversy" example; (2) Is might be worthwhile to add a caution against people padding cites with additional extraneous quotes. So here's a proposed edit of Wjhonson's edit:

  In instances, a direct quote from the source helps other editors verify that the source supports the edit. If the quote provides important contextual information, it can be placed in the footnote.

  --Lquilter (talk) 16:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

At least Wjhonson's approach doesn't treat, say, the Durants' The Story of Civilization as being inferior to some high school history teacher's, or even college professor's, Web site. In response to SlimVirgin's concern about what pert of a long online article the editor is citing for support, print sources have the advantage of page numbers; if an online source has headings or other anchors in the HTML, the link can point to that, although not all Wikipedians know how to do that. I still object to adding quotations ANYWHERE in the article, including footnotes, solely to persuade other editors that the source supports the statement for which it is cited. Everything visible in a Misplaced Pages should be there to help the reader, never for the convenience of other editors. Avi's suggestion of putting the quotations in small type is an indication that the extra quotations will be a problem, and his solution adds another problem on top of it: making Misplaced Pages harder to read.

The standard for years has been that a disputed edit without a citation is subject to removal. If this new proposal becomes a guideline, will doubting editors start reverting edits with citations if the citation is not supported by a confirming quotation? Assume bad faith or incompetence? The burden should remain on the editor who doubts a statement to follow up in some way (I have done this myself many times when I doubted the correctness of an edit with a citation); there are many ways of doing that (I suggested a few above). The burden should not be on every Wikipedian not only to cite WP:RA but also to supply a supporting quotation. While the proposal is well intentioned, it is really a very fundamental change in Misplaced Pages editing policy and opens the door to even more contentiousness than we already have. Finell (Talk)

Free sites preferred

When the guideline says that we prefer links to free sites, what do we mean exactly? For example, we almost always prefer scholarly articles to non-scholarly ones, and generally you have to pay to read the former online, unless you're a member of a university library. SlimVirgin 22:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That leads to an interesting point. If the article/journal itself is locked behind JSTOR or Elsevier, but an on-line copy exists on a less reliable platform, can the original (printed or on-line) article be the reference, and the URL be solely a convenience link? -- Avi (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, subject to WP:COPY#Linking_to_copyrighted_works and WP:RS constraints. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the guideline should be that if exactly the same information is available for free, or for a fee, the free version is preferred. Also, if substantially the same information from sources of comparable reliability is available for free or for a fee, the free version should be preferred. But if substantially the same information is available from both a free and a non-free source, and the free source is less reliable than the non-free source, the more reliable source should certainly be cited, possibly with an additional citation to the free source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerry Ashton (talk • contribs) 22:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding scientific papers. I think we agreed we should always refer to the full pint (hardcopy) information as well as the DOI identifier. That will solve most of the problem. Regarding referring to less stable versions of a paper. There is a very good chance the free copy is copyright violation which will disappear as soon as the legal deparments of the copyright holder (e.g. JSTOR or Elsevier or whoever else) finds out that. Anyway I think we should be very careful linking to suspect sources; so make sure the non-official version is not actually an illegal copy. Arnoutf (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The danger of advocating links to free sites is that we may inadvertently encourage courtesy links to copyright violations. As I see it, the issue of whether the site is free or not is irrelevant: what counts is the quality of the source. SlimVirgin 22:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say whether the site is free or not is irrelevant, I would just say that reliability, absence of obvious copyright violations, and stability are more important than the site being free. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there's some merit to the "free" recommendation, as papers may be available from a variety of reliable sources. And with all due respect, the copyright concerns are highly overblown, and out of our purview. There's a substantial effort underway to encourage faculty to self-archive their own publications, many reputable journals now have official author-retain-copyright policies, many journals have some level of open-access policy, and there are a number of publicly available archives of scholarly material. It's worth talking about assessing reliability of sources, but we definitely ought not assume that sources violate copyright nor require that WP editors ascertain copyright status before linking to something: Ascertaining copyright status is a full-time, difficult job that can require significant legal expertise, inside information, hours of investigation, and so on. --Lquilter (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

How about this?

Where material of equal stability, interest, and reliability is available on a no-cost site, this will usually be preferred to one that charges a reading or subscription fee, but bear in mind that the quality of the source takes priority. When providing courtesy links, editors should be careful not to link to obvious copyright violations.

SlimVirgin 23:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, provisionally it looks okay to me as a draft, although I want to tweak in a bit, but let me just make sure I understand what we're comparing it too -- we're all talking about the section in "Convenience links", and only that section, right? It currently reads:

Convenience links

The term "convenience link" is typically used to indicate a link to a copy of a resource somewhere on the Internet, offered in addition to a formal citation to the same resource in its original format. It is important to ensure that the copy being linked is a true copy of the original, without any comments, emendations, edits or changes. When the "convenience link" is hosted by a site that is considered reliable on its own, this is relatively easy to assume. However, when such a link is hosted on a less reliable site, the linked version should be checked for accuracy against the original, or not linked at all if such verification is not possible.

Where several sites host a copy of the desired resource, the site selected as the convenience link should be the one whose general content is most in line with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. While no-cost sites are preferred, convenience links to non-free archives such as JSTOR are permitted, provided the material is available to the public (in libraries, for example).

So, SV, is your proposed text to revise the second (last) paragraph of this section? --Lquilter (talk) 00:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To replace the last sentence, starting "while no-cost sites ..." I'd also want to copy edit the previous sentence. SlimVirgin 00:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree with SlimVirgin's suggestion. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• (Outdent) I would suggest changing the final sentence to "While no-cost sites are preferred, convenience links to non-free repositories are permitted, provided the material is available in free repositories (such as libraries)". Wjhonson (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• I'd suggest changing the first phrase ("Where material...") to ("Where copies of the reference...") just to be clear that we're talking about the same "material". --Lquilter (talk) 14:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't make any grammatical sense in that sentence. SlimVirgin 15:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at this again, I can't even see what it has to do with convenience links, which is the section it's in. I think this was maybe written by someone who was just confused, so I've removed it and copy edited the rest of the section. SlimVirgin 15:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think that's fine. --Lquilter (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. SlimVirgin 16:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Looks good. -- Avi (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• User SandyGeorgia inserted a couple of sentences about copyright (diff). I took out the second one, which adds extra detail about whether or not the site has licensed the content. I think it goes beyond the current policy on linking to copyrighted information, and at any rate, it introduces the possibility for duplicates & ultimate inconsistency. So long as we link to the copyright policy & say linking it is in conformity with that, it should be okay. Other thoughts? --Lquilter (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not keen on having this guideline say anything about copyright. I took out that sentence I proposed, Lquilter, because of your previous post. It's a very complex area, and it's often used on WP as an excuse to remove links that are objected to on POV grounds, rather than out of a serious desire to respect copyright. SlimVirgin 17:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• If a cited source has a web page for the cited item (such as a web page for a journal article) then that URL is preferred. For many journals, that URL is to a page which only has a citation or abstract of the article (with links to access the full article). If someone finds what seems to be a legitimate copy of the same article elsewhere, I suggest a separate citation for that item (which also takes care of the problem of preprints before changes, or an article and a book having the same name). If more than one source exists (such as full PD text of Treasure Island) then a free version would be preferred over one for a fee. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally hear what SV is saying and, wonder of wonders, we agree! Just for the record -- I'd rather not mention it at all, as I feel it contributes to copyright paranoia more than serves a useful purpose. But, I'm not strongly opposed to mentioning it, so if others think it's important to keep it in, that's okay; however, I do feel we shouldn't unnecessarily replicate information in multiple fora. Simply referring is better than restating & explaining in another place. --Lquilter (talk) 18:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. SlimVirgin 19:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Language

In Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 the references state the language that the source is written in. I added the retrieval dates, but should the language be there at all? Is there a standard for internet sources?Grk1011 (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not necessary, but it's definitely helpful. SlimVirgin 00:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

In publishing references it is generally seen as a good idea to mention if a source is in a foreign language; but not if a source in the language of the publication as that can be considered standard. In the case of English Wiki; I would suggest to make a note of the language of non-english references only. An example of this is found in Dutch general election, 2006#References where almost all refs are tagged Dutch except for the few English ones (admitted because of the heavy coverage by Dutch sources this is not very clear). Perhaps time for a guideline how to handle foreign language sources in the references? Arnoutf (talk) 16:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

By all means have a go at drafting something, Arnout. It's a subject that people have strong feelings about. Some editors feel that sources should be predominantly in English so that readers can understand them; others feel that even hinting at this furthers systemic bias. If you feel you can pick your way through that minefield, it would be very helpful. :-) SlimVirgin 19:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I like the idea of including a (French) or whatever after non-English sources. We are definitively "English-language" WP, so I think we can distinguish non-English sources without necessarily prejudicing against them. --Lquilter (talk) 15:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, some first draft would be something like this, I would place it as section 4.4:
===Citing non English language sources===
When citing a source written in another language than English, report the language of the source, by placing this name between brackets in bold immediately after the title. This prepares editors to judge whether it is useful to check a source based on the language of that source.

Example:
Mulisch, H (1992): "De ontdekking van de hemel" (Dutch), De Bezige Bij, the Netherlands
please comment Arnoutf (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

okay that works, i was putting the language if other than english at the end tho, ill start putting it after the title i guess.Grk1011 (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem where it is placed, whatever works best for all. This was just a suggestion. My reason for this suggestion is that it easily works with templates, just type the whole "De ontdekking van de hemel (Dutch)" as title in the template and it will work; but other suggestions are welcome. Arnoutf (talk) 19:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that most of our citation templates already have a property for language. Make sure either that any new policy we introduce is compatible with what the templates already do, or that the templates are changed accordingly. In any case, sneaking the information into the "title" property of a template is a bad idea. If there are templates that need a field added for this, we should do so. This information should remain logically separate from the title. - Jmabel | Talk 18:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

SallyScot

SallyScot has been making edits that have substantially changed parts of this guideline since roughly October, and repeatedly reverts when challenged. She does this even when her edits have clearly caused the writing to deteriorate.

If SallyScot is who she says she is -- a new account, not a sockpuppet -- then she arguably doesn't have the experience to be going around changing guidelines or policies. She has made only 481 edits to the encyclopedia, 273 of them to just one article. Of her other edits, 103 have been to this guideline or its talk page.

Alternatively, SallyScot is not who she says she is, and is indeed an account belonging to another user, in which case I would like to remind her that sockpuppet accounts are strongly discouraged on guideline and policies.

Either way, it would be appreciated if this kind of editing would stop. The guideline has to be reasonably stable, and material that has been in it for a long time shouldn't simply be removed on a whim. Similarly, we have to try to maintain a decent standard of writing. To call a template a "technique" is strange writing. It is a style or a format or a method, perhaps, but "technique" is just odd. And yet I am being reverted by her for correcting it. It is starting to feel as though I'm being trolled. SlimVirgin 15:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The style or format would be the resulting rendered HTML - a template or "raw" wikitext are techniques for getting that rendered HTML; even if you don't agree with the terminology, this is at least a reasonable distinction to make. —Random832 08:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Slim, Can you back up your claims about my history of repeated reverts when challenged on this article since about October with some examples other than those which relate to your own edits? It will be helpful if you take into account and include reference to edit summary comments. - From my perspective there was no great issue with repeated reverts here until you got involved.

You are as entitled as anyone to get involved at this or any other stage of course. That applies to each and to all. But this attitude of attributing your own edits greater importance based largely on criteria such as previous Misplaced Pages total edit count rather than more reasonable arguments just smacks of cliquishness.

Let's go over the issue of citation style / citation format.

'citation style' was changed to 'citation method' at 12:00, 24 January 2008 with the edit summary comment: (→Citation templates - The term "style" is misleadingly suggestive or at least ambiguous with sense of style as per e.g. the Chicago Manual of Style. We are talking about a behind the scenes METHOD.) - IP edit - SallyScot accidentally logged out.

reverted 15:13, 24 January 2008 SlimVirgin (style is correct)

Also posted on my talk page 15:15, 24 January 2008 - a second query about sock-puppetry...

"Please say what your main account is. You're continuing to revert on tiny little points in what looks like an effort to stir up trouble. Either quit it, or come clean about who you are. --SlimVirgin 15:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)"

So, Slim didn't think much of 'citation method' then. What about 'citation technique'?

19:11, 24 January 2008 SallyScot (→Citation templates - the term "citation style" invites some confusion with distinct citation formatting conventions as in e.g. Chicago Style or MLA Style, "citation technique" is better)

Then it goes like this...

02:59, 25 January 2008 Jayjg (→Citation templates - techniques aren't distinctive, styles are)
03:47, 25 January 2008 Gerry Ashton (The style is the appearance seen by the reader. The technique is the markup which creates the appearance. We don't want the markup changed to or from templates; that's technique.)
12:57, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (technique -> format, and restored the References section, which was clearer before the copy edit)
14:40, 25 January 2008 SallyScot (→Citation templates - 'format' is synonymous with 'style' and invites similar confusion. Reasoning for use of 'technique' has already been given. Better argument for alternative is yet lacking.)
14:45, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (it's not a "technique" -- please don't edit in a way that causes the writing to deteriorate)
15:03, 25 January 2008 SallyScot (It IS a technique, for the reasons already given. Stubbornly saying otherwise is simply contradiction, not counterargument. You need to calm down and explain WHY you think it's not a technique.)
15:20, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin (your changes were objected to, so please discuss on talk rather than just reverting)

With at 15:13, 25 January 2008 SlimVirgin's post above - i.e. the initial post of this 'SallyScot' section.

It looks as though a reasonable case has already been put against use of either the terms 'citation style' or 'citation format' in the Citation templates section. By comparison the arguments for continuing to use either of these terms seem to me more like stubborn contradictions "style is correct" or "it's not a "technique"" without a reasoned supporting argument.

It looks as though all SlimVirgin has to do to keep their edit in place is object in a simple "oh no it isn't" kind of way.

I'd like some clarification on the rules of engagement here.

--SallyScot (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

In the spirit of compromise and in the interests of working to a consensus I refer to the part of SlimVirgin's post above that says "a method perhaps" and propose a wording change from 'citation format' to 'citation method'.

If there are no counterarguments put forward in the interim (and no one does it before me) I'll do this in the next few days.

--SallyScot (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, SlimVirgin is correct; someone who has made fewer than 500 actual article edits shouldn't be attempting to re-write our guidelines. Experience is critical in understanding what works and what doesn't. Jayjg 23:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

And as someone with over 20,000 edits, I think I can say I have a fair working of wiki, and I agree with almost everything Sally had to say, Jay. -- Avi (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My point was that people who don't have a lot of article editing experience shouldn't be trying to re-write policies or guidelines. That obviously doesn't apply to you. Jayjg 01:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg's point is a topic for wider discussion. However, in this case, it is clearly now moot. I have the support of at least one editor with over 20,000 edits. Counterarguments relevant to the proposed wording are thus called for. --SallyScot (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Referencing different pages in the same book?

I have been learning how to add citations and references for a while now, but I still do not know exactly how to make multiple references to different pages in the same book. I could just reference a book without a page number, give the reference a name and make multiple references but I want to make my citations more precise.

I hate not backing up statements and claims without the exact page number listed. Despite checking many times, over a period of months, I find that the help pages are not clear enough for me to understand how to do this. - Shiftchange (talk) 22:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

One solution is to use {{Harvnb}} and {{Citation}} in combination with one another. See Philippine-American_war#Notes for an example. Click wikilinks to get from footnotes containing (possibly page-numbered) references to the associated citation or a work to which the references apply. Use the browser's Back button to get back. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The inline citation method Short footnote citations with full references covers this. It's documented with examples on the project page. --SallyScot (talk) 11:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC) - This has since been removed as a consequence of 'Deterioration' edit (see section further above) --SallyScot (talk) 11:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the way most people do it, Shiftchange, is simply to write <ref name=Smith25>Smith, John. ''How to Write References''. Random Publisher, 2008, p. 25.</ref> Then if you reference the same page again, write <ref name=Smith25/>. This avoids the need for citation templates, which can make the text hard to edit. SlimVirgin 13:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a good idea to actually make it <ref name="Smith25">, so that if you have spaces or other weird characters in the refname, the system doesn't bug out. --Lquilter (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also very possible to combine these approaches: named ref element for same page + use of {{Harvnb}} for the reference itself. Whether templates make things easier or harder is a matter of taste. - Jmabel | Talk 18:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for handling page numbers with <ref> format_format-2008-01-26T05:39:00.000Z">

There's needs to be a better way to cite the same source with a different page numbers in the same document so that someone still knows which page related to what quote/statement. For example:

You might have <ref name="NameOfSource"> Full citation</ref> and <refpage name="NameOfSource">p.30</refpage> and later in the article you might use <refpage name="NameOfSource">p.35</refpage>. You can still use <ref name="NameOfSource" /> for simple citations that don't require page numbers.

---Action potential 05:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

Not sure I follow your question, AP. There are different ways of handling it. The way I write them is <ref name=Smith70>Smith, John. ''Name of Book'', 2008, p. 70.</ref> Or if I'm using short refs <ref name=Smith70>Smith 2008, p. 70.</ref> If I'm certain I'll only cite page 70 once, I leave out the ref name. Or have I missed your point? SlimVirgin 21:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

---

I think the question has been asked (and misunderstood) before. I've moved earlier section from further above to immediately above this section for comparison. I think it's asking how you refer to different pages in different citations, but from the same basic reference, such as from the same book. Like, if you have...

The Sun is pretty big, but the Moon is not so big.

References

1. Miller, E: "The Sun", page 23. Academic Press, 2005.
2. Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", Scientific American, 51(78):46.

...using Footnotes referencing method, then how would you add to the text "The Sun is also quite hot." referenced from another page, e.g. page 34, of Miller's same "The Sun" book?

--SallyScot (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

Thanks for translating for me SallyScot. That's exactly what I meant. In Stanford referencing it is simple, you can use (Miller 2005:23) for the first example you gave and (Miller 2005:34) for the second. I don't know how to handle it properly in the current wikipedia referencing system. Perhaps I'm looking for something like: <ref name="Miller 2005:23">Miller, E: "The Sun". Academic Press, 2005.</ref> and <ref name="Miller 2005:34"/> . The actual page of the quote would be added to the reference list which will help in fact and reference check. ----Action potential 02:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Another whack at an explanation — In the article prose, you might have something like this for inline harvard referencing:

The Sun is pretty big,{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|pp=12,236}} but the Moon is not so big.{{Harv|Brown|2006|p=57}}. The Sun is also quite hot.{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|p=34}}

or, with the harvard refs placed to footnotes in an endmatter Notes: section:

The Sun is pretty big,<ref>{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|pp=12,236}}</ref> but the Moon is not so big.<ref>{{Harvnb|Brown|2006|p=57}} (Brown was quite an expert on the moon)</ref>. The Sun is also quite hot.<ref>{{Harvnb|Miller|2005|p=34}}</ref>

Then, in the endmatter, something like:

If footnotes are used:

==Notes==
<references/>

and

:==References==
*{{Citation
|last=Brown
|first=R.
|title=Size of the Moon
|journal=Scientific American
|volume=78
|issue=46
|month=October
|year=2006}}
*{{Citation
|last=Miller
|first=E.
|title=The Sun
|year=2005
|publisher=Academic Press}}

See and the documentation for the {{tl{Harv}} {{Harvnb}}, and {{Citation}} templates. {{Harv}} and {{Harvnb}} generate forward links matching the {{citation}}: Empty citation (help) entries which have matching last= and year= values. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)_format"> _format">

When other full citations are extensively in Footnotes already_format-2008-01-27T12:38:00.000Z">

I was wondering what the view is when contributing to an already well-established article. Supposing an extensive list of full citations already exist in a familiar Notes section (i.e. via <ref> tags and <references />), would the "refs placed to footnotes" approach then create a new Reference section and put the single new full reference there, and supporting multiple short citation references to it for the different page numbers via Notes (via <ref> tags).

In other words, so that the Notes section contains a mix of full citations and short citations?

--SallyScot (talk) 12:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty common to have a Notes section that contains full citations to things that are only cited once (or where the same note is repeatedly linked from the text, because it is a web source and page number doesn't apply) and some kind of abbreviated citation for page numbers in books (used in conjunction with a "references" section). See John Considine (Seattle) for an example. - Jmabel | Talk 19:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Thanks Jmabel, John Considine (Seattle) is exactly the kind of example I was looking for.

It makes for interesting comparison with an article such as Sophie Blanchard, where short citations with full references have been used consistently throughout (i.e. even when there's a one-to-one relationship between citation and reference).

The project-page section relating to this suggests that the reason for including an alphabetised listing of full references in addition to short notes is to "help readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used". So the question I would ask of John Considine (Seattle)'s approach is: Doesn't it look somewhat like a fairly arbitrary partial listing of some references, while other full citations appear in notes?

--SallyScot (talk) 13:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Too many sources?

I was just reading today's featured article, Treatment of multiple sclerosis, and although it is immaculately referenced, I feel there are so many references that the readability of the article is impaired. This is something that I notice from time to time in many big articles. My immediate concern is not whether or which citations might be "removed" (see below) from this particular article, but that WP:CITE doesn't mention this at all, so I don't know if there has ever been a consensus sought.

The main issue with the article linked is that it has a lot of lists of drugs, each wiki-linked to their own article, and then referenced with a citation to a journal that shows that the said drug has been used to treat the said specific symptoms. WP:LS#Citations already advises against redundant references in the lead section, and I think this should also apply to topics like this where the main article on that drug/whatever should be expected to restate the fact described by the list, and have that citation there.

If people disagree on this front, then WP:CITE should include something along the lines of, "If the same contentious statement is made in more than one article, such as when the subject of a statement on a broader topic has its own article, a citation should be provided in all the concerned articles, even if the same source is repeated, as each article must be independently verifiable." However, I don't think this should be the policy. If you saw a drug listed and thought, "I don't believe that this drug is used in this way" it would be logical to follow that article's link and find the citation on that page. Alternatively, to avoid WP:original research-ness as much as possible, a link to a secondary source with a related list would be appropriate. Anyone with me on this? BigBlueFish (talk) 15:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This has come up before and is indeed an issue for debate.

I agree the Treatment of multiple sclerosis is very heavily referenced; and I would agree that listing 4 sources for a single sentence maybe both overdoing it, and disrupting the flow of reading.

While I agree the Lead should not have references redundant to the body text of that same article, in my opinion this is something completely different from information referenced or not somewhere in (I am overstating to make the point) another article of unknown quality. In my opinion it is simply not maintainable to keep track of all such articles, and this may mean that one of the articles is detoriating into a really bad one. This is obviously different from lead to body text as this both reflect same article. Basically my argument is a reason why I am a strong supporter of the guideline that other Wiki articles can never be used as reference. That would include this situation, each article has to verifiable from sources, not from other Wiki articles, so whereever sources are needed they have to be used. Arnoutf (talk) 15:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Your comment on maintainability is very insightful. I agree that from an editing perspective (always important on Misplaced Pages the incomplete encyclopedia) it is a pain not to be able to see what statements are sourced and which aren't. For the purposes of scrutiny, however, both for the reader and the editor, a statement isn't any more verifiable for lack of source on the broader article. Clicking the main article is a fairly minor step when looking up the said citation and deciding on what level it justifies the statement and how reliably.

I wonder whether this calls for some sort of expansion of the syntax. What immediately comes to mind is something like <ref name="p55" from="Stede Bonnet" />, which perhaps obviously would transclude the <ref name="p55"></ref> tag in the article Stede Bonnet. References such as this could be turned off by default and have the capacity to be turned on in user preferences or by a special page action. The reflist at the bottom could even include a note, "Other articles linked to by this article contain additional references which may be relevant to subjects discussed here. You can turn these references on in your preferences or show them now."

This would have the advantage of making all articles concerned more maintainable, as well as more readable for the majority. References can already be conditionally cited by putting the reference in a template, so I don't think that getting the preprocessor to transclude a relevant reference would be difficult to implement.

The issue of what is default and how to change it might be an issue, but I think my above suggestion would work nicely. Note that even if the visibility of references was permanently on, it would still make it easier to maintain citations of facts repeated across multiple articles, so if a better source is found or an update is made, the changes propagate across all the articles immediately. BigBlueFish (talk) 21:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Provide page numbers

Is this part new? I've submitted four featured science articles in the past without this being a requirement (the last in December), I've always followed the method used when writing journal articles, which is just to include the book title (or chapter title if it is a section like collected conference proceedings) and assume that people are capable of using indexes. I can see why this would be important if you're refering to an unindexed older text book or popular science book, but is it a requirement when citing an indexed monograph or handbook? I ask because it's been raised in a recent FAC (House Martin) as a possible objection. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's been there for a while. I'm not clear what difference it would make if you were quoting from a monograph or handbook, Sabine. SlimVirgin 21:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, any scientific text I mean. So this is a valid reason to oppose an FAC? Jeeze.... Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say it is, yes, because it's easy to give page numbers if you're reading the text yourself, and obviously you'd be reading it if you were citing it. So it's hard to see why we wouldn't want to. Sometimes you can give a page range, if you're citing a lot of material between, say, pp 50-70 -- you wouldn't necessarily have to cite every separate page, especially if the stuff's non-contentious. But to have no page numbers at all could be problematic at FA. SlimVirgin 21:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

If material could be easily located using the index, that would ordinarily suffice for the purposes of verifiability. However, the possibility for reviewers to place form over function is a well-discussed issue with the FA system. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of a citation is to efficiently lead the reader as close to the source as possible. The closer and more efficiently, the better.

Arguing that something could be located using an index is like arguing that only an ISBN number is sufficient. That would technically "suffice for the purposes of verifiability", but is not good citation. -- Fullstop (talk) 08:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I took at look at the FAC Sabine was referring to, and it did look as though the commentators were asking for too much. I think as Carl said this was a case of form over function. SlimVirgin 19:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. In that particular case, there is no chapter title provided in the citation either (and still isn't). A book titled "Swallows & Martins" could have a chapter titled "House Martin" of course, but commentators can hardly be expected to assume that.

I'd actually be surprised if anyone had done so: It would be more natural for an FAC reviewer to assume that a book titled "Swallows & Martins" would have info on Martins (House or otherwise) scattered throughout it (thus provoking the demand for page numbers).

Would you not demand page numbers for references to "Pretorians" in a book titled "The Romans"?

-- Fullstop (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't know if this has been discussed, but I find that some internet versions of sources do not provide page numbers, such as some Lexis-Nexis texts. (Personally, I find it's easy to deal with because such texts can be searched.) HG | Talk 02:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The reviewers can indeed be expected to actually look at the cited book, or have first-hand knowledge of it, before they complain that the reference isn't specific enough. I would expect that out of a referee for an article, and they're anonymous, unlike FA reviewers. The fact that reviewers may complain about references that they are not actually concerned enough to check is precisely what I meant by "form over function". — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of terms Reference and Citation

A Use of terms section has been added to the project page which says - This guideline uses the terms "source," "reference," and "citation" interchangeably.

I asked the question a while ago (Archive19) - "aren't the terms "References" and "Citations" fairly synonymous?", and it was pointed out...

"Maybe there is different jargon in different fields. In the field I'm in (math), references are published works and we cite those references in the papers we write. So the article Sophie Blanchard matches our usage of the terms. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)".

I was looking at the former featured article Sophie Blanchard at the time, and wondered if its two section headings, one called Citations and one called References weren't interchangeable.

Another response was...

"I don't know, that article seems fairly intuitive to me. One list contains a list of works to which the author referred in writing the piece ("References"), and the other contains instances in which the author actually cites those works in order to substantiate the content of the piece ("Citations"). Christopher Parham (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)"

So, after this, I thought I understood the difference.

However, the new 'Use of terms' section seems to be leaning toward the idea of citation and reference being the same thing.

This is true enough when full citations are included within <ref> tags using the Footnotes approach and generated in a References section using <references /> tag (or {{Reflist}} template). In this case they do seem to be one and the same thing.

But with Harvard referencing (for example) I thought the citation would be like, (Miller 2005, p. 23).

And the Reference...

• Miller, E (2005). "The Sun - Our Nearest Star", Academic Press.

So, my question is, do we need to make a distinction between citations and references or not?

--SallyScot (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Short footnotes with "Reference" section

If a complete reference section is being supplied, then short footnotes should be used. Firstly, they cut down on the in-text clutter, which I know is a dearly held concern of yours, Slim and Jay. Secondly, there is absolutely no reason to have every citation umpteen times in the notes section, of all that is changing is a page number. Put the author-date-page number in the ref tag and the complete citation in the Reference section. Do you have any compelling arguments as to why it should be otherwise? -- Avi (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Avi wants to say that short footnotes must be used if a separate References section is maintained. Note -- must be used. Do we want to force editors to do that? If so, what do we mean by short footnotes exactly, because they can mean several things?

In my view, we have enough rules here, and we shouldn't be forcing people to write citations in certain ways if they don't want to. SlimVirgin 01:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"Should" <> "Must", it is a strong recommendation. Is there a reason why we should not recommend it, Slim? I thought you were all in favor of reducing in-text clutter? -- Avi (talk) 01:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

For those, who want to see the issue here:

Version A:

If a reference section is included, the footnotes should be in a separate section entitled "Notes" or "Footnotes" and short footnotes should be used, giving the author(s) and the page number, and perhaps the title, but without a full citation, which should be placed in the "References" section.

Version B:

If such a section is included, the footnotes should be in a separate section entitled "Notes" or "Footnotes." Where an alphabetical list of references is provided, short footnotes may be used, giving the author(s) and the page number, and perhaps the title, but without a full citation.

Wjhonson (talk) 01:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it should be a rule, but I think Avi's approach is a fairly good idea. This seems to be an invention for Misplaced Pages; the style manuals I'm familiar with don't mention this exact approach. If we are inventing something new, should we make the format clearer? Some points that have not been addressed are:

• • • What is the exact format for the short note?
    • If writing freestyle endnotes and bibliography entries, how can I create a link from the endnote to the bibliography entry? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The question is whether it should be introduced as a rule. My version says short footnotes "may" be used if there's a separate references section. His version says "should." I would like to leave it as "may," because I think we already have too many rules for writers. What matters is that we know who their sources are, and that they use a consistent style.

And people understand different things by "short footnotes" anyway. SlimVirgin 01:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Responding to Gerry Ashton - one way would be:

• In the article prose: <ref>a footnote with a harvard-reference to {{harvnb|Author|2008|p=123}}.</ref>, placing something like the following in the Notes section:

27. a footnote with a harvard-reference to Author 2008, p. 123

• In the Notes section: <references />
• In the References section.

• {{Citation|title=A book about something|last=Author|first=John Q.|year=2008}}

The {{Harvnb}} creates a link to #CITEREFAuthor2008, and {{Citation}} creates a <cite id=...> with that ID. No backlink is provided -- the browser's Back button can be used to back up from the citation to the link which navigated you there. {{Citation}} supports an optional ref= (lowercase 'r') parameter which you can use to specify the cite ID yourself, and {{harvnb}} supports a Ref= (uppercase 'R') parameter to specify a matching link href.

Also, you can place literal links like #Joe's book or , etc. in your article prose and/or in your footnotes and manually place a {{anchor}} with the matching ID at your citation for Joe's book.

Here are targets for the links above:

• Author, John Q. (2008), A book about something {{citation}}: |last= has generic name (help)
• Joe Blow wrote "A book about nothing". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Boracay Bill, thank you for trying to respond to my post, but apparently you missed the word "freestyle" in my post. Your suggestion relies on templates. Furthermore, you suggest the use of the Citation template in the references section, but that template separates elements with commas rather than full stops, and therefore goes against what one finds in most style guides. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Gerry Ashton: OK, without formatting templates and using a dot rather than a comma after the year -- similar to my second example above regarding Joe Blow's book, but using the HTML <CITE> tag instead of {{anchor}} in order to get the styling hilite working:

Some text using an inline harvard ref to cite a book. <small>(])</small>

and

<cite id=CITEAuthor2008>* Author, John Q. (2008). ''A book about something''.</cite>

modify as needed to tweak the style but, done as shown above, producing the following:

Some text using an inline harvard ref to cite a book. (Author 2008:123)

and

* Author, John Q. (2008). A book about something.

If there's further on this, let's discuss it on my talk page as this sidebar discussion is a distraction here. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(<-) Back to short notes, Gerry, there does not need to be a fixed format, but something along the lines of <ref name = "NameNumber">LastName, Year, pg #</ref> with the full citation (templatized or not ) in the Reference section seems much more manageable. -- Avi (talk) 16:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine, and the guideline gives it as an option, but I wouldn't want this page to try to enforce it. We already have too many citation rules, and people are feeling overwhelmed by them, particularly at FAC. The tone of this guideline has always been, "Here are the options; you choose which one to follow; just be consistent within pages and don't force style changes on other people." People may use footnotes or Harvard refs, with or without a separate Refs section, and if with, then with or without short footnotes. SlimVirgin 17:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

On the specific issue of "should" versus "may" I'm in agreement with SlimVirgin here. Requirement-creep is we don't want, unless there are many invisible flame-wars going on (of which I'm not aware), over people trying to force style changes on others. For my own, I don't like template, and I'm blithely (sp?) unaware of standard referencing. Personally I like full-citations in footnotes, but I'm not terribly consistent. However if someone were to fix my footnote citations, and add a references or bibliography section, I would think that's super. We don't want style to be so burdensome that it causes new editors grief. I think "should" has more potential to cause biting, then "may" has to create it. Wjhonson (talk) 17:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, Slim and Wjohnson, we'll leave it at may. What about this last edit? And yes, I did restore "some editors" as opposed to "it can" as I think that as the guideline is essentially wikipedia talking, it should be as neutral as possible. -- Avi (talk) 17:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I like your latest wording better yes, I have no contention with it. One quibble, here

If short footnotes are used, the full citation, which should be placed in the "References" section.

, you have an extra "which" which — isn't grammatical. Wjhonson (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that was hideous. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 18:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Avi, please stop trying to force your template change in. Four or five people have explained here on talk what the problem is. You've already tweaked and tweaked at it to the point where it doesn't make as much sense anymore, but every time you make another edit, you have to tweak it some more. Please leave it alone. SlimVirgin 19:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You reverted the changes to the Maintenance section as well, perhaps inadvertently, when you restored the "subject to" sentence. I fixed those changes back to what was discussed here, left the sentence you feel is critical in the text, and would ask you discuss it in the section immediately below above. -- Avi (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

How to site flash

Let's say we have a corporate website, and we're trying to source a fact. They happen to heavily use flash on their website. Which means there is no direct link to the section you want to source. How can we properly source this?--Crossmr (talk) 04:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside the reliability issue with corporate websites, the fundamental issue is verifiability. Verifiability is needed for controversial facts, so if its not controversial, don't cite it. To be verifiable a cite should be in print, a web link is a convenience link that supports the underlying printed source. Flash doesn't seem convenient at this time.--Paleorthid (talk) 05:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)