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Revision as of 16:00, 4 February 2008

User:Tlatosmd/Adult-child sex

An attempt to rescue an article that was deleted not because of the content but because the title - the term itself - is unacceptably POV. The term appears to be used only by pro-pedophile activists, and the content is already discussed in several existing articles under less problematic titles. Guy (Help!) 22:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Relevant links:

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adult-child sex (Oct. '07)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adult-child sex (2nd nomination) (Jan. '08)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Adult-child_sex (Jan. '08)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 28 #User:Tlatosmd/Adult-child sex (closed) (Feb. '08) --12 Noon  00:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Question: should VigilancePrime's fork of a fork be included in this MFD? --Calton | Talk 13:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. Let's see:

1. An attempt to rescue : this work page was there long before the mainspace one was nominated for deletion, so it certainly can't be a wrongful re-creation attempt. Moreover, if the mainspace article really was a content fork, as was claimed repeatedly during the AfD, then then work that went into this draft may benefit other, existing articles. Deleting this piece of work seems to go against the DRV closing admin's call for editors to contribute their efforts to existing articles.
2. The was deleted because...: it is not completely clear why the mainspace article was deleted, but "title is POV" is not reason I remember being mentioned often. Anyway, if the title, not the content, is somehow inappropriate, then there may be a case for moving the article, certainly not deleting it.
3. Title is unacceptably POV: I just don't understand the moral panic over this. "Adult-child sex" is not a viewpoint, it's not the statement of an opinion, it's the objective description of a kind of human interaction; one that is strongly frowned upon in most contemporary Western societies, obviously, but that shouldn't prevent us from describing it in a dispassionate manner. We have an article on Female genital cutting, not Barbaric mutilation of women by senseless fanatics, and as much as I may agree with that latter characterization, I'm quite happy the current title.
4. Term is used only by pro-pedophile activists: not only is this patently wrong (as a Google search will show in a matter of seconds), it also seems to be a thinly-veiled attack on your fellow editors.
5. Content is already discussed in several existing articles: again, this only suggests that the work that went into this well-referenced draft page could benefit those existing articles.

Hopefully this MfD doesn't turn into more bitter wiki-drama. Bikasuishin (talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Subpage cannot be used to harbor a deleted article. A subpage can be used to draft a new article, but for only so long, and then it must be moved to mainspace. Since this article title is protected from recreation , it cannot be posted in mainspace. Since it cannot be harbored on a user subpage, it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is nowhere - deletion city. If the user wants to preserve it, save it to some other site or to a Word document. On a sidebar, Bikasuishin's arguments seem circular, extremely off-topic and, as it is, moot. --12 Noon  00:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per Guy and 12 Noon. As a side note, the user page version was created in Nov. '07 after the first Afd in Oct. '07, not "long before the mainspace one was nominated for deletion". -- Donald Albury 01:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Its material that covers a topic in a manner that has been rejected for inclusion. Its been salted. Therefore it cannot be foreseeable that at the present time it will be an encyclopedic topic. So it can't be a work inprogress if it can't become an article. And the other stuff the stuff 12 Noon said. MBisanz 02:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - From reading through the discussion at the relevant AfD, it seems that the reason for the deletion was not because the title was non-neutral but because the content constituted a POV fork. Regardless of title--as an aside, salting of this particular title in mainspace does not prevent the article from being created under a different name--the community has spoken and rejected the content of this article. Barring a complete rewrite, any creation in mainspace would thus result in a G4 deletion, which means that this page is not viable as a potential mainspace article and should thus be deleted per WP:UP. --jonny-mt 02:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete Same animal as the POV fork that was deleted before. NPOV is needed in the userspace too, we are not a web host. _(1 == 2) 05:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - per Bikasuishin. To others, deleted pages are userfied all the time. The term itself has been used in mainstream news such as Washington Post and USA Today. The POV fork assertion was never solidified and only argued after the initial arguments were easily refuted. Userspace is generally free for any purpose so long as it does not harbor a personal attack and this page is clearly an encyclopedic-based effort. The content is only in part covered in other articles as the original (with finding of keep) AfD noted about the original article. The original article was deleted in accordance with WP:STEAM, in case nobody had noticed. The article in the userspace is a complete rewrite (and one of a few different versions available under different userspaces). There is no real reason to delete this userpage and there is plenty of reason to leave it be, if for no other reason, per WP:EM. What's the big threat to "you all" (those pressing so hard to delete with great prejudice) from userspace drafts and userfied information? There still has not been put forth a solid, policy-based reason to delete. Can anyone provide one? VigilancePrime (talk) 05:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no threat per se (incidentally, I believe the grammatically correct term is "y'all" :P), but the fact is that the merits of this article should be--and have been--discussed at the appropriate venues, specifically WP:AFD and WP:DRV. Simply put, MfD is not a last-last chance to save deleted content; the discussion here should center around whether or not the userfied article adheres to WP:UP and related policies and guidelines, not rehash the arguments put forth in favor of and against the original deletion. This, in turn, is the starting point for the rational, policy-based arguments for deletion presented above. --jonny-mt 06:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - I don't see anything wrong with keeping it in userspace for now, and considering the deep edit history behind the article, it could prove useful. Userspace pages aren't held to the same standards as mainspace articles, and the case for deleting the article for mainspace I think was rather tenuous in the first place (as per Bikasuishin's points). — xDanielx /_C\ 06:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Strong keep. This is by no means the article of the same title that was deleted under similarly illegitimate circumstances. See for a more detailed account of the relating scandalous crusade against several admins and for the particular reasons why the widely controversial, basically illegitimate decision (being illegitimate due to illegitimate AfD as directly defined by Misplaced Pages policy that each new AfD needs new nomination rationale, as one of many other reasons) on the main article would not even be applicable even IF the userpage would be identical (which it's definitely not!) and even IF the mainspace decision would be legitimate and entirely uncontroversial (which it's definitely not either), my post on the DRV for Adult-child sex here. True, the userpage was put up after the first AfD, however that AfD closed with a strong keep from closing admin due to consensus and affirmed by another admin in DRV, and it was before the next bludgeoning of process by another, identical nomination rationale AfD with same voting statistics and even more arguments for keep was opened just a few weeks later. It would be great if MBisanz wouldn't stubbornly and untruthfully call content "(metaphorically) salted and deemed unencyclopedic" if 130 people, established editors and admins alike, adamantly wanted (and want) it to stay. I see though that Adult-child sex has now even be self-righteously protected which I regard pretty offensive to the established 10 dozen members of Misplaced Pages vehemently disagreeing with these illegitimate decisions violating any known consensus policy and guideline on Misplaced Pages as well as all decisions made in all precedence polls, AfDs, and admin decisions based upon the same (or even worse) conditions and rationales; at the very least it's arrogant ignorance towards their sophisticated, abundant reasonings and official, verbosely well-substantiated admin decisions (where the other party was found entirely incapable of even just debating or refuting anything as SSB pointed out at the provided link, all we got every single frickin' time were colorful one-liner no-brainers and personal, unsubstantiated, and unreferenced opinions), or this protection resembles pretty much the name-calling these 10 dozen established members "Pro-pedophile activists" all over again. Any alleged "POV" and "POV fork" issues are just as moot points for userspace as hammered out in detail at link. --TlatoSMD (talk) 08:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete. Yeah, deleted pages are userfied all the time -- but that's only if there's some potential for saving them in the first place. Certainly user pages are NOT a semi-permanent home for the not-ready-for-primetime, nor even a temporary refuge for that which shouldn't be hanging around in the first place. That's not even touching the title, whose very existence makes this a no-go. The overheated conspiracy-theory stuff just above certainly helps make this an easy decision. --Calton | Talk 13:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Delete the term is and always will be a POV fork. Viridae 13:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• I am getting tired of this whole stupid POINT. "The term appears to be used only by pro-pedophile activists" is an indication of IDONTLIKEIT. There are a huge number of reliable sources cited the use of this term that can be seen in this deleted talk page. Strong keep per my rationales last time and per DGG's comment in the DRV discussion "there was no consensus that this material could not be turned into an article, just a rather disputed consensus that the present article was was not acceptable. This should be allowed to remain a reasonable time so it can be worked on". @pple complain 13:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You need to read WP:POINT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This topic has already been deleted, and if anyone is disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, which is unlikely, it would probably be those who are so insistent on trying to "rescue" an article under a title which is POV on a topic which is already cvered in numerous other articles (all of which are also subject to occasional problems of similar POV-pushing). Guy (Help!) 14:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment. There was not even a consensus in favor of the unsubstantiated opinion that the term ACS itself would be inherently POV instead of CSA, so it would be great if you'd stop insisting there was. As SSB pointed out, the most sophisticated reply to requests as to give reasonings why the term ACS could be considered POV was screaming "PEDOPHILE!!!!!" at everything that walked. There were plenty of academic sources (at a three-digit amount!) and sophisticated rationales brought up as to why the term CSA ought to be considered POV, and all those colorful, no-brain one-liners saying otherwise were verbosely and profoundly debunked again and again and again and again. The question ought rather be, why save the existing CSA main space article rather than to attack this private userpage, so apply there. Experienced admins such as User:John, User:Grue, User:DGG, User:Tango, User:Coren, User:@pple, and others, called the closing admin Keilana's entire ability to proper judgment and fulfill her duties as an admin into question for her unwarranted personal decision to delete the mainspace article for which she was even incapable to provide any rationale for. Please call them all pedophiles as well so we can have you perma-banned as quick as possible. The whole AfD where that decision was made about the mainspace article ACS was illegitimate to begin with, and it's even more wrong to apply in a self-righteous crusading fashion that illegitimate, arbitrary decision upon a private userpage not resembling the mainspace article. It's fascinating to watch this numinous, irrational, pre-scientific panic to burn anything at the stake that which does not fit one's pathetic ethnocentric values. --TlatoSMD (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Please Tlato, let's keep a cool head over this. I'm no more pleased than you are to see a number of perfectly reasonable editors side with the witch-hunters when it comes to these touchy issues, and I understand why accusations of POV-pushing directed at your hard, deeply-researched work would upset you, but even if you feel personally offended by some remarks here, retorting will only antagonize people further. Also, while I don't think you were serious regarding the current CSA article (which covers a topic whose notability is obvious, if only because of its use as a legal qualification), comments like these are unlikely to help either. The mainspace ACS article was deleted, and the deletion was endorsed at DRV. It doesn't mean that it cannot be recreated at a later date, as consensus changes (I'm not sure what the rationale was for salting it either, by the way), but let's focus for now on this particular deletion discussion. Bikasuishin (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)