Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:27, 6 February 2008

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This article was nominated for deletion on January 26, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

I've changed 'remedy' into 'substance' for no sources of the effectiveness of this 'remedy' were cited. Furthermore, the encyclopedic value of this article is disputable.

This article seems to be full of POV-pushers

I've just found this article, and wouldn't you know that I find many of the most frequent anti-homeopathy editors here. Hello everyone! This article is another piece of evidence that many of the anti-homeopathy editors assert that there is "no scientific research" on this or that subject within homeopathy, and yet, either these editors are purposefully ignoring the body of basic science evidence and clinical research or they are choosing to not look and simply asserting that there is no research (when you don't look for something, it is indeed hard to find it). What is also so interesting is the degree of self-justification that goes on in the homeopathy-bashing and the unapologetic tendencies for either ignoring or attacking homeopathic research. "How convenient" is all I have to say about the lack of references to the scientific literature at this article, especially when there is a reasonable body of basic science work (testing homeopathic doses of this medicine) and clinical trials too. This article deserves better than where it is now...let's try to maintain the good wiki-spirit in this process. My apology if I'm sounding a bit arrogant or paternalistic, but coming to this article fresh, I can't help but feel that the editors here are asleep at the wheel (and seem to be proud to be asleep). Eeeeks. Dana Ullman 06:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than jumping in and calling people "POV pushers" (which is insulting), and referring to "anti" editors and "pro" editors, can't you just try and open a friendly dialogue and Assume Good Faith. I think you've been reminded of this before. This isn't going to get editors already here open to your point of view (you know, the "POV" that you're "pushing", in your words)--88.172.132.94 (talk) 09:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is a helpful addition to the understanding of homeopathy, especially since "placebo effect" cannot be attributed to the mice. I've corrected the reference formatting by adding {{reflist}}. Arion 3x3 (talk) 13:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.--Area69 (talk) 06:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Be careful, the placebo effect is complex. If the vet or other people around the animals know which ones are getting the verum and which one the placebo, the animals can react to the (unconsciously signaled) expectations. (More likely to play a role with horses or dogs than with mice.) If the vet or technicians evaluating the improvement of the animals are aware of who's who, then their evaluations can be influenced by their own expectations. (Whereby the subjective element for some measures is greater than for others.) There is no excuse for not blinding a study at anything above the pilot level, and the results reported from a non-blinded study should always be treated with caution. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

88, you're right: maintaining good faith is so important to wikipedia. Perhaps then, you and other editors who have worked on this article can show good faith by explaining why this article asserted that there was "no" research testing this medicinal substance. "No research" is a very precise and absolute assertion. I find that it is interesting that certain editors are very good and fast in inserting references to anti-homeopathic literature but ignore and even delete references to good research published in high impact journals when the results are positive. Dana Ullman 14:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Defies logic

If a patient is suffering from arsenic poisoning, because they are being exposed, via the water you drink, to arsenic, in the amount of X per day, how is giving dx, where dx is an additional but infinitesimal amount of arsenic, for a total of X+dx, going to "remedy" the arsenic poisoning? It doesn't. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WnEo46h4A, which discuss homeopathic dillution. I will be adding this to the article. TableManners 07:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the source (without the video):

• Williams, Nathan (2002-11-26) Homeopathy: The Test, Horizon (BBC) Retrieved on 2007-01-26 (transcript)

youtube is probably not the best reference, but the BBC is per Misplaced Pages:Reliable source examples#Science article in the popular press. TableManners 08:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi there TableManners. I have no problem with people being skeptical of homeopathy, though I do not yet understand people's skepticism of the primary principle of homeopathy: the principle of similars. I'm a little confused why you don't see the logic to the homeopathic principle of similars (treating like with like). I assume that you know something about and have respect for vaccinations and conventional allergy treatments, two of the few methods within conventional medical care that work by augmenting immune response...and what a coincidence, they utilize that principle of similars. In addition to the logic to using the homeopathic principle of similars is the body of animal and human clinical trials that have been conducted, have been posted here, and have been deleted by people who follow my contributions. Hopefully, you will help me maintain this information here, and perhaps, you can help refine the information so that it incorporates info about the semi-blinding aspect to some studies and the size numbers. As for the BBC's "test" of homeopathy, I suggest that you do some simple reading about the validity of that test. It was supposed to be a "repeat" of the work of biochemistry professor M. Ennis, but clearly, it wasn't: It wasn't until late 2003 (over a year AFTER the BBC had conducted their trial) that Ennis was shown the protocol that was used, and she was shocked to discover that there was little similarity between her trial and the one that was created by a "medical technologist" at Guys Hospital who had never conducted or published reseach on basophils (yeah, it was THAT bad!). Here's some more info about the BBC's and the 20/20 "tv experiments": There is more depth and breadth to homeopathic research than you may realize. Dana Ullman 14:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Dana, why do you keep repeating this same arguments when it's been explained to you that they aren't valid on other pages? --88.172.132.94 (talk) 22:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ullman's studies

is by homeopathic manufacturer Boiron, published in a minor journal, and which says in the abstract that it's a pilot study ("This pilot study was conducted on 20 males and 19 females of village Dasdiya") where over a third its subjects dropped out. As such, it does not pass WP:RS.

The second article's site is not working at present. However, The New Scientist article and related piece have some oddities, but the one unrelated scientist interviewed says that he is "extremely skeptical". I'm sure w ecould track down response letters.

The third one is claimed to be in a "major journal" (J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987.)

Unfortunately, the journal "Human Toxicology" does not seem to actually exist, and an online search for the title () comes up with no reliable source. Adam Cuerden 02:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden 01:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your objections. I also disagree with your selective quoting. The article actually stated:

"Although Gescher told New Scientist he is "extremely sceptical", he adds that the study is interesting."

Remember, consensus is an inherent part of the Misplaced Pages editing process. Arion 3x3 (talk) 02:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(1) Human Toxicology does exist. Not every publication is online (yet).

(2) Just because a homeopathic manufacturer such as Boiron has sponsored research does not make it invalid. Who do you think does the research on new medical drugs before they are marketed? Arion 3x3 (talk) 02:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As per point (1), in may exist, but it's certainly not a "major" journal, as the text explicitly claimed, as major journals, indeed, almost all minor journals, are indexed and so on so that researchers can find relevant articles. Per point (2) - To some extent, yes, however, strong regulatory binding does mitigate this, as does recent moves to force pharmaceutical companies to announce all trials when they start, so that the ones they don't publish can be known and inquired into. No such restrictions apply to Boiron, as far as I am aware, making their studies far more doubtful. Adam Cuerden 09:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is claimed that Human Toxicology is a major, high impact journal. So major and high impact that u+c

It's been 5 years since the New Scientist article. What has happened since? Any follow up? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 03:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

What happened since the New Scientist's article 5 years ago? Did you not see the info about the HUMAN clinical trials that not only showed some clinical results but also showed significant objectively measured changes in various lab measurements. It is very challenging to do such human trials, and these researchers were impressively sensitive to the ethical issues involved in the use of placeboes in treatment, though they did have a placebo group in their studies (it was simply smaller than the treatment group). In referene to Adam C's statement above, I hope that people are seeing that he consistently provides partial information that only supports his point of view. I sincerely hope that we all make an effort to avoid the obvious truncating of quotes. Dana Ullman 20:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a self-described pilot study run by the same group as the mouse study. We can mention it briefly, but that's about it. Adam Cuerden 09:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

The section about "Claims of efficacy" now has provided undue weight to the fringe-minority belief that this substance does something. PouponOnToast (talk) 14:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to address this just. I'm not entirely happy with the study that is currently still there being included. It doesn't prove anything, and the conclusions are so weak--RDOlivaw (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleting properly sourced scientific data, without reaching a consensus with your fellow editors, is not the best way to edit Misplaced Pages (or any other encyclopedia). Using "fringe-minority belief" as justification is simply not acceptable. Arion 3x3 (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you might want to reconsider the AGF notice you have on your userpage. --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The Linde metaanalysis

"The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis . Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. ) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy ), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments."

Linde et al, Impact of Study Quality on Outcome in Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy, J Clin Epidemiol Vol. 52, No. 7, pp. 631–636, 1999, doi:10.1016/S0895-4356(99)00048-7

Since Linde et al. have rejected the findings of their metaanalysis after further study, I believe the results from it should be considered superseded. Adam Cuerden 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Adam...in THIS case, you are mixed up on the various meta-analyses that this team has published. You're confusing their clinical meta-analysis published in the Lancet (1997) with the one I cite here (1995) which is their meta-analysis on environmental toxicology studies (animal research, not human). The meta-analysis to which I referenced here was published in a major toxicology journal. If you think that I'm wrong (though I'm not), please provide verification. My advice is: slow down a bit. You're getting sloppy (we all get sloppy when we do too much). Also, I deleted the reference to the Shang review because it didn't have any direct research on Arsenicum album (remember: THIS is the subject of this article). Dana Ullman 04:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

That's true, Dana, but the 1994 (not 1995) study is being misused here all the same. Here's a quote from that article:

"As with clinical studies, the overall quality of toxicology research using SAD preparations is low. The majority of studies either could not be reevaluated by the reviewers or were of such low quality that their likelihood of validity is doubtful. The number of methodologically sound, independently reproduced studies is too small to make any definitive conclusions regarding the effect of SAD preparations in toxicology"

You've ignored the findings of Linde et al, and instead reported the bits of data that suit your point of view. Hesperian 04:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hesperian, you're right...it is 1994, not 1995. Thanx. My writing pointed out that most of the 105 publications used in this meta-analysis were of low quality. I prefer to simply ignore low quality studies and instead only focus on the high quality one (this is not "cherry picking"). There are 9 points that are a part of the abstract to this meta-analysis. #6: "Among the high quality studies, positive effects were reported 50% more often than negative effects" (I reported this, and it was deleted) Point #7 says: "Four of 5 outcomes meeting quality and comparability criteria for meta-analysis showe positive effects from SAD (serial agitated dilutions) preparations. Point #8: Average percent protection over control in these preparations was 19.7% (this research was published in a leading toxicology journal; the authors are highly respected physicians who specialize in analyzing research design; this information is RS and V).

By the way, Hesperian's quote above continues and says: "Our indepednet analysis of high quality studies and meta-analysis of comparable experiemnts did show some surprising findings. First, experiments using the 'high' dilution range had higher quality evaluations than experiments in lower dilution ranges, making their validity more likely. Second, our reevaluation of results form these studies using the raw data showed that over 70% had positive effects. Finally, the meta-analysis also demonstrated positive effects for preparations in which no effect is expected when the data form multiple studies was combined. These studies provide the strongest evidence that 'solution'effects may indeed occur." My previous writing in this article provided this summary, but it has been deleted several times. I am concerned that Hesparian chose to truncate the quote above. I will assume good faith, and you can show good faith by you summarizing this body of information for this article. Is that reasonable? Let's be reasonable. Dana Ullman 17:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I need to note one other important fact here which I also previously wrote in the article (but that was deleted): Of the high quality studies, 27 were found to show "a high degree of evidence for activity. In contrast, only 13 sutides were found showing no effective in these dilution ranges." Dana Ullman 18:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Misinformation in first paragraph

Friends, the statement "rare reports of arsenic poisoning from poorly-prepared homeopathic treatments have been reported" needs to be striked. First, it is a report from India with such a low dose of arsenic that it would be illegal to have in the U.S. or any European country. Dana Ullman 06:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a V RS backed statement, perhaps it could use some rephrasing? —Whig (talk) 07:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It may be V and RS, but it needs to be significantly changed or deleted because it suggests that a medicine that is impossible to buy or get in the US and Europe has undue weight. See, I'm learning Dana Ullman 07:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing the V and RS statement because it shouldn't happen where you live sounds a bit like suppression of information. That doesn't tend to go down well on wikipedia. How about just adding a bit of context, if required? Then again, the statement is factual and this is a real scientific paper, and it is clearly notable that some (incorrectly) high doses are toxic --DrEightyEight (talk) 08:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This "V and RS" statement is a reference to a 1X potency, and yet, in the US, the OTC dose of this medicine is a 6X. Although I recommend deleting reference to this statement, I'm open to keeping it if there is adequate consensus, but you need to mention that this patient's experience took place in India with a 1X dose, and the American and European laws do not allow the over-the-counter sale of such toxic doses. In fact, the lowest potencies allowed of this medicine are 1,000,000 more dilute than the dose in this statement. Because my editing tends to be reverted, often without comment, can I ask you to make this change? Dana Ullman 17:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added the information you've provided, but we need a source for the legal levels --DrEightyEight (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The source: Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States, published by the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia Convention of the United States, it is updated yearly. This book is recognized by the US FDA as one of the compendiums of drugs. Once again, the dose in which Arsenicum album is an OTC drug is 6X. By the way, I appreciate your thoroughness. I really do. I hope that we can collaborate more together. Despite our differences, there is a lot upon which we can agree.Dana Ullman 00:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

An important study was deleted

The below statement was deleted without comment. This is a RS (the journal is now called "Human Toxicology" and is highly respected in the field): Another animal study testing various homeopathic doses of arsenic on mice was published in a leading toxicology journal and showed statistically significant effects.

Based on the paragraph above that describes one more study, it seems a little funny (and inaccurate) to refer to all three studies as "preliminary." As for the mechanism of action, it wasn't until somewhat recently that we began to understand how aspirin works...and this didn't influence its acceptability. The reference to the "mechanism of action" has no place here. This article should emphasize what is known, not necessarily what is unknown (if we were to say what we don't know about something, then most of each article would discuss the various things we don't know. Further, this is an article about Arsenicum album, not the entire field of homeopathy. The reference #3, #6, and #7 and the partial sentence connected to it have no place here.

Here's what is presently written with my recommended changes (I suggest that we add the above study after reference #5): Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album; however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danaullman (talk • contribs) 07:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but WP:Undue weight and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, among other things, says we cannot delete the mainstream view. No large-scale trials of the remedy itself have been done. However, there is strong consensus on homeopathy as a whole, and we can't weight small trials, at least one of which i s self-described as a pilot study, over large-scale analyses of the purported mechanism by which they would work. Adam Cuerden 07:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, the study you advocate is from an obscure journal that is not available online, is not pubmed indexed, and which only gets 7 google hits under its title: , all seven of which are the exact same opinion piece which cites the article at the end. Calling this a "major study" being unfairly ignored is hyperbole of the most excessive sort; indeed, it's not even clear from the online sources if this is, indeed, on Arsenicum album or on some other arsenic-containing remedy. Adam Cuerden 08:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, given the description of that study in that opinion piece, which is similar to wording you have previously used, two questions: #1. Is this opinion piece your source for discovering this study, or are you the one who informed Mr. King of it for his opinion piece? #2 If not, then how are you aware of such an obscure article? Adam Cuerden 12:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Adam...please remember that not everything that is available online, and how you searched came up with much fewer references than when I just searched under Google Scholar using: Cazin "Human toxicology". It is referenced in several journal articles and in several books published by leading medical/scientific publishers. Further, this study in this respected journal was a part of the Linde meta-analysis (1994). This study was recognized by Linde et al as one of the high-quality studies, even though I didn't find it via Google as cited in this article (but I have a copy of it, and I not only see it there, it is highlighted by the authors). By the way, I previously erred. The "new" name of this journal is "Human and Veterinary Toxicology". Let's be fair, especially nowadays. Dana Ullman 18:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am fully aware that not everything is available online, but such low numbers of references to it - your method gives 20, and none of them look particularly impressive - does seem to limit what claims can be made about its importance to somewhat less than what you are making it out to be. A search for "Human and Veterinary Toxicology" stops at #14, although it suggests that there are really about 365.

In short, it becomes somewhat difficult to consider this study notable unless you can provide some really good reason why. Adam Cuerden 19:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The reasons that the Cazin (1987) study is notable is that it was published in one of the leading journals in toxicology. It was conducted at a major French university and department of pharmacology. It showed a statistically significant result. It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial." It has had several replications that have confirms its results. It has V, RS, and 3rd party confirmation...it has them all. At this point, it is your responsibility to assert why it should not be in there. Dana Ullman 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You keep saying it's a leading journal of Toxicology, without offering any evidence to that effect, and it is missing most of the trappings of a major journal - pubmed indexing, actual mentions in the literature online. Adam Cuerden 04:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thomson Scientific's Journal Citation Reports lists 76 journals in the "toxicology" category. It doesn't list journals entitled "Human Toxicology", nor "Human and Veterinary Toxicology", but it does list a journal named "Veterinary and Human Toxicology". When listed in order of impact factor, H&VT ranks 68th out of 76 journals. Hesperian 05:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This journal gets more and more mysterious. Who publishes it? Adam Cuerden 06:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not mysterious at all. The correct name is Veterinary and Human Toxicology. I'm glad that you've confirmed that it is a recognized peer-review journal in toxicology. We can strike the word "leading," but it is still a NPOV source, and the various 3rd party referencing of this study make it notable. Oh...and here are some more new and NPOV references:

--BELON P., BISWAS S.J., KARMAKAR S.R., BANERJEE P., BANERJEE A., DAS J.K., PATHAK S., CHOUDHURY C., BHATTACHARJEE N., GUHA B. Is an elevated anticuclear antibody titer in subjects living in two groundwater Arsenic contaminated villages indicative of a time-dependent effect of Arsenic exposure? Environmental Science (2007) , vol 2 (1), 10-16 --BANERJEE P., BHATTACHARYYA S.S., PATHAK S., BOUJEDAINI N., BELON P., KHUDA6BUKHSH A.R. Comparative efficacy of two microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum album, to ameliorate toxicity induced by repeated sublethal injections of Arsenic trioxide in mice. Pathobiology 2008 in press Dana Ullman 18:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Um... it's not in press, as far as I can tell. Pathobiology publishes the contents of their next issue online: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=Ausgabe&Ausgabe=234549&ProduktNr=224272 and it's not listed there. In any case, science usually requires replication by independent groups. These articles are by the exact same people who did the other two studies already in this article. Adam Cuerden 21:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam, for now for providing an explanation for why you have been so adamant about deleting the 1987 study by Cazin, et al, published in "Human Toxicology" (previously mentioned). This newer work are the replication studies of the pervious work...and now, there are several replication studies...and further, there are a confirmatory human trial. This body of work follows ALL of the RS and V and NPOV that wiki loves. Will you now recognize the Cazin trial, and if not, how many more trials do you now want to delete from wikipedia on the similarly flimsy grounds that you have suggested for not accepting Cazin? Dana Ullman 00:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The abstract of "Is an elevated antinuclear etc", available here, appears to have nothing whatsoever to say about homeopathy. What makes you think it is a replication of Linde et al? Perhaps, Dana, you could lay out for me all the relevant published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each? Hesperian 04:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and incidentally, Environmental Science: An Indian Journal appears not to be indexed by any body at all. As far as dealers in reputable journals go, it apparently doesn't exist. Hesperian 04:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hesperian, you're right...THAT study is not a replication study. It verifies and specific problem, and THIS study shows the effects of homeopathic Arsenicum in help reduce the problem. This study was previously deleted from this article. And please slow down a tad and read my posts properly. I never said that this study was a replication of Linde's. My reference to Linde was that he referenced the Cazin study and confirmed it as a high quality study and one with significant results. As for that Environmental Science pub, it is a new pub and is not presently notable. Now, do you want to put in the Cazin study or shall I? Dana Ullman 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the Cazin study should or shouldn't be included, as yet. I'm trying to form an opinion, but I am confused. I imagine it is at least possible that my confusion will not be resolved by "slowing down a tad and reading your posts properly." Considering you gave a wrong year above, a wrong journal title above, a wrong journal title in the article citation under dispute, and put forward a reference that turns out to be unsuitable for this article, I think you may bear at least a small portion of responsibility for my confusion.

I really think we could all benefit from you doing as I requested a post ago, and laying out all the relevent published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each. If I only had a clear idea of what had been published, what was a replication study of what, and the quality of each journal, then we might be able to get to the bottom of all this.

Hesperian 00:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I apologize for some of my errors (it proves I'm human). My initial posting made reference to several important studies and I provided some detail about them ]. Please note that Linde, et al (1994) is an important meta-analysis. Typical of virtually all scientific research, they found that most studies were not a "high quality." I recommend that we only evaluate and write about the results of the "high quality" studies. Cazin's work is mentioned specifically as one of the high quality studies. There have now been several replications of this work, and now, there have been human clinical trials (please note that this clinical trials not only found reduction of arsenic in the treatment groups, as compared with the control groups, the researchers also found certain increased laboratory measures that confirm a physiological effect experienced by those given homeopathic doses of Arsenicum album. Dana Ullman 05:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have finally found the absolutely correct reference to the Linde meta-analysis on homeopathic doses and environmental exposures. Here's the link: ]. The correct title of this journal is: Human and Experimental Toxicology. My apologies. On a different but still important subject, anyone interested in basic science evidence on homeopathic doses might benefit from reviewing: ]. You will note that his is a review of 67 in vitro studies, 1/3 of which of the trials reviewed here are replication trials. Dana Ullman 06:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathic Clinical Trials Are a Higher Quality Than Conventional Medical Studies (Lancet, 2005)

First of all, the Lancet (2005) article was not a "meta-analysis." It was a comparison of studies (conventional vs. homeopathic). Although many physicians and scientists have reported sharp critique of this study that has no external validity, this article ignores one of its important conclusions. The researchers found that 21 of the homeopathic clinical trials were "high quality," while only 9 of the conventional medical studies were of a similar "high quality." Because people in this article on Arsenicum album include a statement about the quality of homeopathic research, we need to have a statement that a more recent analysis and comparison of homeopathic and conventional studies found that "more than twice as many of the homeopathic studies were of high quality as compared to those testing conventional medicines." Although I suggest that the reference to Lancet and Int'l Journal of Epidemiology articles should be deleted, we should include this observation from the Lancet article if we are going to include them. Dana Ullman 02:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You and I must be reading different articles, or I'm just not getting what you're saying. But to quote the Lancet article, the conclude "When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." Which means, homeopathy is no different than drinking water. Ooops. It is drinking water. There will NEVER be evidence that homeopathy is anything more than a placebo because 0 molecules of anything can't have any clinical effect. Although drinking that water is probably good for the kidneys and bladder. OrangeMarlin 03:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, the Shang analysis found several medical trials to be inadequate for one reason or another as it did with the homeopathy trials. That is not surprising or important. The important conclusion is that as the quality of trial increased, the medical trials showed significant effects against the placebo while the homeopathic preparations showed little difference from the placebo. Acleron (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin, I know what article I'm reading, but it seems that you're only reading the abstact. Because you are chosing to being prolific in editing homeopathy articles, it would be helpful if you read the research, not just their abstracts. My statement above about how many trials Shang defined as "high quality" is absolutely correct. What is interesting (VERY interesting!) is that he never provided any statistical analysis of the 21 high quality homeopathic studies and the 9 high quality conventional medical studies (luckily, a major journal will finally publish this analysis shortly). Instead, Shang asserted that although these high quality studies were all randomized, double-blind and placebo controlled, they were "biased" because they had under 80 subjects in them. By choosing to include only larger studies, he then limited the inclusion of studies to those that used only ONE medicine (or a placebo) for the treatment of everyone with the same illness (despite homeopathy's insistence upon individualization of treatment, except in a select minority number of conditions). In order for Shang's analysis to show homeopathy in a bad light he had to ignore two of the large 300+ clinical trials on the treatment of the flu with Oscillococcinum (he used only 1 of the 3 studies; and he used one pilot trial of using this medicine in the prevention of the flu...this trial was conducted by a competitor to the makers of Oscillo!). Shang also didn't include any of the high quality studies of Reilly at the University of Glasgow, and he didn't include the Jacobs' trial published in PEDIATRICS. As the Church Lady said, "How convenient." Dana Ullman 18:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever your personal opinion of the Shang analysis, it has been accepted by the scientific community and no good criticisms of its conclusions or methodology have been published in the literature. I know you're aware of discussions that have rebutted your claims (a cursory Google search will show you've participated in these discussions and been shown to be wrong). --DrEightyEight (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

In DUE respect, there have been a significant amount of critique of the Shang article, unless you now consider the Lancet to be non-RS. In fact, the letters published ripped up the Shang analysis, and Shang's response was inadequate. In addition to the published letters in the Lancet, several other peer-review publication have also published strong and credible critiques. Are you saying that you haven't seen these critiques. Dana Ullman 00:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you're aware that letters are just letters, no matter who publishes them. I'm also sure you're aware that all these criticisms have been addressed, unless you don't understand, or are refusing to understand (cf. serial dilution), the issues. This is understandable if you've had no scientific training. Why don't you ask for help on the bits you don't understand? --DrEightyEight (talk) 09:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand and don't need your help here in seeing the lack of external validity that the Shang paper had. Shang never responded to that critique, nor did he (or you) give us an analysis of the high quality trials. Do you or do you not have this analysis? Please give us this information or acknowledge that Shang purposefully left it out because it would give credence to homeopathy...or are you now saying that high quality randomized double-blind placebo controlled trials are "unscientific"? As for critique of the Shang paper, there are so many good critiques that there are even editorials about the junk science that it was: Are you now choosing to ignore editorials too? Dana Ullman 15:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes the Journal of CAM, hardly a RS for criticisms of Homeopathy; no bias there! --DrEightyEight (talk)

Just because a medical journal doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that it isn't RS. There has already been a lot of discussion on this topic, and this peer-review journal is a RS. Further, I couldn't help but notice that you did not answer my previous question: What was the analysis from the 2005 Lancet/Shang study on the 21 high quality homeopathic trials and the 9 high quality conventional trials? Further, now that others have brought up the issue of the quality of research at this article, this 2005 Lancet article shows that more than twice as many homeopathic trials are recognized as "high quality" as conventional medical trials. Should you make this editorial change or shall others? Dana Ullman 14:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you banned from editing the mainspace, Dana? That paticular finding of the Shag analysis is irrelevant here, and I know you're aware of previous places where this has been discussed with you. --RDOlivaw (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If others have accepted the issue about research quality, this opens to door to a reference to Shang's Lancet article that showed that homeopathic research is more than twice as likely to be of a higher quality than conventional medical research, unless you prefer to delete all of the references to Shang's questionable "study." Dana Ullman 19:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge target

There seemed to be consensus at the AfD that this should be moved somewhere. Shall we try to establish a consensus where? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The decision was to KEEP this article, not to merge it. Dana Ullman 15:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Dana: what part of "The result was keep in the sense of "not delete". There is no immediately apparent consensus as to whether or not the article should be merged to one of a number of proposed other articles, but that is a matter for editors to work out." did you fail to understand? Hrafn_Stalk 16:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that merging it to arsenic trioxide or water (or more accurately lactose) would be violently opposed by pro-homeopathy editors, and given that homeopathy is already quite large, would it be appropriate to suggest List of homeopathic preparations as the first candidate for an up/down vote on merger? Hrafn_Stalk 16:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This article should not be merged since it is notable in its own right. Arion 3x3 (talk) 05:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, and having just gone through AfD it would be pointless to continue the debate. Let's work on making this a good article, it is clearly notable, but if there is insufficient content to justify it being separate from a larger article of homeopathic remedies it can be merged at a later time. —Whig (talk) 06:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely wrong. The result of the AfD specifically noted that almost all !votes were to merge it somewhere, but that merge is considered keep as opposed to delete. If there really were two or more plausible merge targets, then keeping the article would still be appropriate, even if the consensus were to merge. And there was no finding the subject is "notable in its own right." — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that you failed to provide a reason for your own vote and did not respond to a request for clarification, you should know that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. —Whig (talk) 07:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no justification in the AfD for the subject being notable, either (although there's a slight justification on this talk page, not in the article). And my "explanation" would be that the reasons given in the "keep" !votes justify my proposed merge, instead. (Which should have been clear to any readers.) Unless this is the prinicple homeopathic remedy, it should be merged into the list and then (if too long) be separated on other grounds. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It hardly matters, there is no rush to merge. If you think a merge is appropriate then propose it and post the banners. —Whig (talk) 08:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

That's what I was saying. We need to decide where to merge the article, before the detailed proposal is posted. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus to merge, I oppose your merge proposal. If you don't even know where you want to merge it, then I think that it is premature to discuss. —Whig (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

An objective observer would probably find consensus to merge. As no such (objective observer) has appeared, we'll have to agree to disagree until the merge target has been specified. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, no merge target has been specified, so your desire to merge...somewhere...but nowhere in particular, seems just to be a desire to override the vote to keep. Please stop being disruptive. —Whig (talk) 22:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, a number of potential merge targets were listed in the AfD; Arsenic trioxide, list of homeopathic preparations, water, dilution and succussion (since merged to homeopathy), bollocks, urine, homeopathy, alcohol, .... List of homeopathic preparations seems best. One could make a case for Arsenic trioxide, but I don't think it would be correct. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD Nominator TableManners banned

I don't have a horse in this race, but, FYI, the person that nominated this article for deletion has been identified as a sockpuppet and has been blocked indefinately. See .--Hjal (talk) 07:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Kdbuffalo again??? Sheesh. That bugger has hundreds. Suppose it might have been more obvious had I been watching Richard Sternberg. Adam Cuerden 14:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

1. J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987