Misplaced Pages

I suggest, for accountability purposes, that when an Admin is mentioned as at fault in an Arbitration preceeding, e.g. LessHeard vanU at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Zeraeph/Proposed_decision#Discussion_by_Arbitrators, that is be recorded somewhere besides an obscure arbitration page that the Admin is free to ignore. Mattisse 16:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Please can you direct any further discussion to this page (under the Discussion tab) in my userspace. Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 11:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

BusinessWeek's Terms of Use

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I know this is not an admin related thing, but there is no other page where fruitful discussion can be achieved. There are some notes in the blogsphere (particularly, this one) informing that BusinessWeek not only does not allow deep linking, but that they also enforce it. Since we have around 2828 links that would breach their terms of use (businessweek.com/copyrt.htm), it appears as if we will have to remove them all. Of course, it cannot be automated, as some are being used as references and would have to be replaced. I am wondering whether there is a way of ignoring their terms of use to keep the links or, if it is not possible, to begin working on the removal. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 23:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We should not remove links. What legal precedent there is generally shows deep linking to be legal. BusinessWeek don't have a case, we should not be bullied into compromising the quality of the encyclopedia. I am of course not a lawyer. At most we should ask the Foundation's legal team to weigh in on this before acting precipitously. Gwernol 23:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

"generally shows deep linking to be legal...I am of course not a lawyer." Um, not always. Anyhow, I don't think we should worry about this until they send us such notice, and then it's a question for our counsel. Cool Hand Luke 00:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think we would be bullied, and neither think it is a boycott. But if there are no precedents on this, I think we should avoid future problems. From what I see, and without legal precedents that I know of, it is like pointing to a page that requires registration, and providing a username and password to access it, which violates their terms of use. And I don't like this "let's wait until they sue us", as it is the most common excuse fair use advocates use. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 00:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Obviously with any legal issue it is the Foundation legal counsel that needs to get involved in determining what the legal rights and wrongs are, but I personally hope their decision is to fight back against such idiotic (and almost certainly not legally enforceable) link policies, and keep the links and dare them to sue us. A court decision against BusinessWeek would be a good precedent for all deep-linkers everywhere. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we're building an encyclopedia, not fighting for deeplinkers everywhere. Deeplinking does not effect WP:V, so if our counsel chose not to divert resources to this, it would be a sound decision. Cool Hand Luke 00:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Concur with Dan. The fight for free-linking should begin with Misplaced Pages. Amerique 00:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a question - has anyone talked with BusinessWeek and confirmed that this is true? -Jéské 00:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Honestly Amerique, BusinessWeek and their crusade on deep linking would be the least of Misplaced Pages's problems. — Save_Us † 00:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I hardly expect WP to "take point" on copyright issues in any but the most regressive manner. Still, internet controversies have a habit of affecting us. remember the AACS encryption key controversy? Amerique 01:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I expect Misplaced Pages to view its mission as building an encyclopedia and other user-generated free content. I didn't sign up for an advocacy group, and I'm sure a lot of contributers didn't give their money in defense of deeplinkers.

In fact, we don't think that the fight begins with us. Take a look at the history of Fortune 1000 if you don't believe me. Our job is to build an encyclopedia, not fight for some broad conception of internet rights. Misplaced Pages is not EFF. Cool Hand Luke 02:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Honestly, a policy against deep linking sounds like a cash grab to me. (Advertisers pay way more for "front-page" ads than for article ads.) It also sounds to me like it has little legal basis -- as far as I'm aware, hyperlinks are considered the content of the host site and not of the target site, so there's little the target site can do about it. Sure, they can whine about it, but when push comes to shove, you can't tell someone they can't reference something that's publicly available. If the links were workarounds for some sort of payment or service, that'd be a different question, but links on Misplaced Pages are the legal domain of Misplaced Pages, not of their targets. - Revolving Bugbear 01:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If they really wanted to, they could block refers. That's why it's strange they would use notice—self-help is likely much more effective. But honestly, deeplinking's interplay with copyright is not clear. Cool Hand Luke 01:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Cool Hand Luke, you can continue working the way you are. However, the same way we have our own terms of use (like not hotlinking our images), they have theirs, and if they can enforce them, we should not "wait until it happens". Sites like Famitsu block forum referrals, for example. I would advice to bypass BusinessWeek articles for now, finding a second reference (eWeek usually post full computer-related articles from BusinessWeek, and I guess other outlets mirror them as well) if possible. If not, continue using it, but try to minimize whenever possible, at least until this is clear. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You can use an article on BusinessWeek as a reference without linking it! If we decide not to link to BusinessWeek, there's no reason to remove any references; all that's required is not having a hot link. - Nunh-huh 03:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that there is absolutely no reason to remove the link, but there are a few lawyers around you could ask if you want a better opinion. BD2412 and Eastlaw would both be good picks. But removing the links would be disruptive at this point. Prodego 02:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, asking lawyers would be the reasonable option. And I didn't say we must start removing links now, but instead try to use alternative sources until this is clarified. And if necessary, to plan on replacing the links (or as Nunh-huh says, replacing the {{cite web}} for {{cite journal}}, for example. I will ask some others (I can't remember the name of our legal counsel after User:BradPatrick, and have problems posting, must connect to job's computer to post since I cannot access Misplaced Pages from home for some reason). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, Mike Godwin is the one. I will mail him, and leave notes in some talk pages to get some more feedback about whether that makes sense or not. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If I may interject here -- I am an attorney in New Jersey (although I must admit, I am a relatively new lawyer). I am not terribly familiar with this area of the law, and I am not sure what binding precedent exists on this point in the State of Florida, where the Wikimedia Foundation is based. I think there may be a possibility that BusinessWeek's policy against deep-linking may be enforceable through contract law (i.e., you agree to their terms of use when you access their site), but even this is pure speculation on my part. As far as copyright issues are concerned, I'm not entirely sure if there is a copyright issue here, because we are doing nothing to infringe on their actual copyright (i.e. we are not copying or redistributing their materials).

As User:CoolHandLuke mentioned, BusinessWeek could configure their server to prevent such deep-linking, so they could enforce their policy without resorting to legal action. The fact that they have failed to exercise such rights could lead to an affirmative defense for the Wikimedia foundation of estoppel or acquiescence -- in other words, because BusinessWeek failed to fully protect themselves, they might be estopped from taking action against a deep-linking user because they could have solved the problem without resorting to the courts.

I would be interested to hear what other lawyers here, such as BD2412 and Postdlf have to say about this. --Eastlaw (talk) 04:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So far as I know, the only case that has directly addressed the issue of "deep linking" (Ticketmaster Corp. v. Tickets.com, 2003 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 6483 (C.D. Cal. 2003) came out on the side of it not being a copyright violation. However, the linking at issue in that case was to pages with information about concerts, said information not being copyrightable by itself. However, in reaching its conclusion, the court said, "A URL is simply an address, open to the public, like the street address of a building, which, if known, can enable the user to reach the building. There is nothing sufficiently original to make the URL a copyrightable item, especially the way it is used. There appear to be no cases holding the URLs to be subject to copyright. On principle, they should not be". The court also held that the deep linking involved in that case did not compromise the plaintiff's exclusive right to "show" its work, because the work was still being "shown" on plaintiff's own webpage, and (this is key for us, I think) because defendant did not endeavor to "frame" plaintiff's materials within the appearance of defendant's own page. Since all of our links are just straight links taking users out of our cite entirely, and to the other party's website, I think we are in the clear on that. bd2412 T 05:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no consideration for a contract. The Terms of Use are only enforceable through suspension of access. MilesAgain (talk) 04:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Moot point - even if there was, a breach of contract action would run against the person who accessed the site, not against Misplaced Pages. Since an editor gives up control of information once it has been posted here, and since BusinessWeek holds those decidedly non-copyrightable URLs open to the public, there is really no way BusinessWeek could force Misplaced Pages to remove the links. At most, BusinessWeek could change the page locations or means of access so as to make the current links inaccessible, but I think that would be as much of a pain for them as for us. bd2412 T 05:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Our disclaimer reads Misplaced Pages does not encourage the violation of any laws; and cannot be responsible for any violations of such laws, should you link to this domain or use, reproduce, or republish the information contained herein. Wouldn't we be seen as "encouraging" the action? From what you say, it appears they can prevent outsiders to go to these pages directly only by technical means, not litigation, which is what I was interested in knowing. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 05:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't be that difficult: they could just block or require registration for every request that has Misplaced Pages as a referer. The fact that they haven't done this suggests to me that its not a problem; that we should wait until they actually ask us (if they do). If it ever does become a problem, it's not a big deal to drop the hotlink. URLs are not required for WP:V.

Yeah, Wikimedia probably has CDA sec. 220 immunity for all of this, but our policy can't favor illegality. And there are several cases about deeplinking in the US and worldwide, especially in Europe where it's possibly illegal under the Database Protection Directive. There's no consensus, but contributory infringement in the US is not totally impossible. Cool Hand Luke 08:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So far as I know, there is no copyright issue associated with deeplinking to a BusinessWeek article. BusinessWeek has not complained to us, so far as I know. They'd contact us before filing a lawsuit. They can also enforce a prohibition on deeplinking through technical measures. Whether they do this is out of our hands. I wouldn't lose sleep over this issue -- it doesn't seem to be generating a problem for WP. MikeGodwin (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Prolific POV-pusher moving from Misplaced Pages to WikiNews

Hi. I really need some good advice here from experienced users. A prolific POV-pusher has made a move from Misplaced Pages to WikiNews and there do not appear to be mechanisms in place there to check him. I am referring to Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Cirt runs an incredible 5000+ edits per month with the main effect of his efforts being to bring articles critical of (primarily) Scientology to featured and front page status. And you know what, I have no objection to that. Misplaced Pages is a community and featured articles are the most scrutinized of all and I am comfortable with the community holding him in check so if he can make a Scientology-critical piece into a featured article then more power to him. Of course in areas that are not scrutinized he has more "freedom of expression" as in the article on Bowfinger where the only "Theme", according to Cirt was that Scientology is a cult, see this. He expanded it a bit after I pulled his little piece though it is still unduly weighted. Or perhaps Curt's recent spat of AfDing and prodding Scientology-series articles that are, IDK, not sufficiently critical? I am not going to play around with words here, I respect this community too much. I, for one, am 100% certain that Cirt is a reincarnation of Smee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (formerly Smeelgova (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who disappeared just before Cirt appeared. Their interests, article for article, are identical, as is their editing style and MO, with Smee famous for bringing material critical of Scientology to the front page under WP:DYK.

So what does this have to do with WikiNews? Well, we were discussing a recent DDOS attack on the CofS on the talk page and whether it was notable (consensus seeming to be no, not notable) and I saw a reference to a WikiNews article so I went over there. I found that someone had been very busy indeed! Not only an article on Jan 20, Hackers attack Church of Scientology website but another today, "Anonymous" releases statements outlining "War on Scientology" and the first raised to FEATURED STORY status. So today, a release by some bunch of anonymous haters is front page news along with Gaza and Iraq. Who would think that? Who would benefit from that thought? Of course, I find that both were essentially written by the same person, Wilhelm. And I happen to know that Cirt's original name here was User:Curt Wilhelm Von Savage, an alias once used by Werner Erhard, the founder of EST, another of Cirt's targets, see the little treatment at Semi-Tough, similar to the treatment at Bowfinger (you may need to go back a bit as recent GA review may have toned it down). I also recognize Cirt's style in the WikiNews articles but then I am very familiar with it.

So you see my dilemma? So long as Cirt was not repeating Smee's more offensive errors and working within the community, I had no huge problem with his efforts to push his agenda. I knew that the community was large enough and the structure strong enough to hold him in check and meanwhile the project gets a prolific editor. But this WikiNews thing is a dealbreaker for me. He is using the power of Wikpedia to push the ill intentions of a small group of ne'er-do-wells (and read their page if you do not know what they are about) and he is doing it with no regard for the project or for anything other than his agenda. And there do not appear to be mechanisms in place at WikiNews to hold him in check. I really do not know where to go with this. This is a big thing and, if Cirt/Wilhelm is left unchecked, it will only get worse. Help. Please. Thanks in advance. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Please speak more! Just kidding. Misplaced Pages has no power over Wikinews. What users do in out-space is not under our control. You can certainly cut Wikinews links from here if you find they are not reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjhonson (talk • contribs) 20:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry, this is not a simple issue that could be summarized in a few words. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Wikinews also has policy pages don't they? They must. It might be very helpful to that sister-project to take your concerns there as well. Remember that our policies were fine-tuned over many quite um.... enthusiastic discussions.Wjhonson (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Actually, Wikinews isn't a reliable source at all - WP:V specifically excludes open wikis such as Wikinews from consideration as sources. (Added) I note, though, that Wired has reported on the story that you mention (see ) so if you really want to document it I suppose Wired would suffice as a reliable source. I don't think it's a particularly notable episode though - don't fall into the trap of recentism! -- ChrisO (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
        • I would note however some rumblings from certain "persons to listen to" that Wikinews *might* be coming up the world. (cf somewhere Jimbo has some thoughts on this) So some editors here should probably begin paying more attention to Wikinews Policy pages before the situation gets out-of-hand. Wjhonson (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
          • There was a fairly recent discussion about this on the Foundation-l mailing list if anyone wants to go through the archive. I believe it has to do with WikiNews's policy on "archiving" (protecting) articles once there is no more news relating to the subject. Mr.Z-man 22:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Wikinews has the Neutral point of view policy that all Foundation projects have. It has been reasonably well exercised over the years. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to argue on source reliability of WN. If there is no wrong doing or proof then nothing to worry about. So stop trolling the trolls. DragonFire1024 (talk) 01:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Alerting this project to misuse of a sister project to basically promote cyberterrorism is hardly trolling. Let's see a front page story (or two or Featured) on WikiNews about some "announcement" by Encyclopedia Dramatica. Let's see how far that gets --JustaHulk (talk) 04:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • WikiNews has the problem that their "front page stories" are really just a list of recent changes. They're probably going to have to come up with a better approach. What they have doesn't scale. --John Nagle (talk) 06:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • No, they aren't. What is listed on the main page is determined by a story's status. And we came up with a scalable system ages ago. We have a wide range of specific topic and area portals. Indeed, the level of new stories has nowhere near reached what the system is capable of, yet. See how low the story rate is at n:Portal:Brazil, for example. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages has nothing to say about WikiNews? Yet when I look at the Scientology article, what do I see at the bottom but Cirt/Wilhelm's WikiNews over-promotion of the ill intentions of a loose collection of cyberterrorists. Interesting because at least one of the *chan's is showing more discretion than Misplaced Pages in that 7chan has apparently blocked promotion of this group's activity. That is a truly sad reflection on Misplaced Pages. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Articles here are based on policy and consensus. There are many avenues to address your concerns but AN/I wouldn't be the appropriate one. We have policies that cover for example verifiability and neutral point of view and it sounds a lot to me like you're having a content issue, that should be taken to one of those talk pages, instead of here to get more input. Wjhonson (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I was asking for input about WikiNews and I learned that there is little that can be done here. I brought the subject up over there at their equivalent to this board but the little bit of response I got indicates that basically what is being run over there is more an open blog than a responsible news organization and Cirt/Wilhelm is free to turn the WikiNews site into "The Anti-Scientology News". Good news for him, no doubt. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Obsession

Your obsession, Justanother, with Smee and editors you presume to be Smee must end. You dislike the attentions that Anynobody directs at you, do you not? Then please stop chasing Smee. This whole situation reminds me of the crocodile and Captain Hook in Walt Disney's Peter Pan. Tick, tock, tick, tock... Jehochman 14:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ain't no "presume" about it but your point is taken. Obviously, my concerns fall on deafish ears. So be it. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Smee may or may not have editing problems. Given the history of bad blood, why don't you let somebody else deal with that? Likewise, I would give the same advice to Anynobody concerning your editing. If everybody follows this advice, we will have much more peace and happiness at Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 14:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I already said that I trust the community to hold Cirt in check as regards featured articles. I was addressing another point entirely and will not bore the reader by repeating myself on that. BTW, more eyes are especially helpful now at Scientology and related articles due to a spate of red users trying to forward the little 1337 campaign. --JustaHulk (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Response from user who is subject of the "Obsession"

• I have reserved commenting, and not fed into this vitriol, until now. But at this point, this continued posting by JustaHulk/Justanother has gone on long enough, and I feel I must respond. (7) other editors/Admins what have you ( Wjhonson (talk · contribs), ChrisO (talk · contribs), Mr.Z-man (talk · contribs), Uncle G (talk · contribs), DragonFire1024 (talk · contribs), Nagle (talk · contribs), and Jehochman (talk · contribs)) have all given insightful insight above, and yet none of them have said that any of my recent actions on either project have been inappropriate. JustaHulk/Justanother went cross-projects to voice a complaint about a user he thought was me at Wikinews:Admin action alerts, that is fine. I will confirm that yes, I am Wilhelm on Wikinews. That discussion over there has since been moved to Wikinews:Water cooler/miscellaneous. In that thread, yet again, (5) editors/Admins whichever responded with comments, none of which said I have done anything inappropriate. JustaHulk/Justanother has continued anyway to post comments in both locations. One can assume good faith with the initial complaints lodged in both locations, sure. But at this point, the actions of JustaHulk/Justanother are bordering on not just outright disruption of these complaint boards cross-projects, but also personal harassment to me on both projects, after all of these other users have already commented on the situation. DragonFire1024 (talk · contribs) has here characterized his behavior as "trolling", and Jehochman (talk · contribs) has said that this is an undue "obsession" with me that "must end". (See above for their comments.) I would tend to agree with both of these highly respected editors - the former an Admin on Wikinews, and the latter an Admin on Misplaced Pages. If JustaHulk/Justanother feels he must be ever more disruptive/harassing, and post to here, and to the thread at Wikinews yet again, and have "The Last Word", as it were, I hope that an Admin (on both projects) will call this out for what it is - and take whatever action that Admin feels is necessary to curtail this situation. I won't be posting here again, and any Admin can feel free to drop me a note on my talk page to discuss this further with me (NOT JustaHulk/Justanother) Cirt (talk) 14:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC).

• Cirt, thank you for your comments. However, I hardly think that my words here rise to the level of "vitriol" (abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will). While I might not appreciate your efforts here, I have not used vitriol. I had/have a legitimate concern and I expressed it. I never said that there was anything wrong with you being Wilhelm or that you had tried to deceive anyone about that. You are certainly free to have different accounts on different projects and not disclose the relationship. My sole concern is about the mechanisms that exist to hold POV-pushers (references available upon request) in check and what can or should be done when those mechanism seem ineffective. Needless to say, I did not learn much in this exercise. I did not go "cross-projects to to voice a complaint about a user he thought was me", I followed the advice of an editor here, "It might be very helpful to that sister-project to take your concerns there as well" and brought up my concern there about an editor that is you. Your style, when considered with your interests and methods, is totally distinct and recognizable. And as far as "JustaHulk/Justanother has continued anyway to post comments", that is just odd as I have not contributed to this thread in two days and I certainly acknowledged Jehochman's concern re "obsession". I can only assume that you performed your calculus and concluded that you had nothing left to gain by remaining silent and came over here to take your shot before this thread archived out. Fair enough. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• JustaHulk, because the user feels uncomfortable under your attention, could you simply avoid them, whether or not the feelings are valid? A little courtesy costs you nothing. If you have problems with this user, go to an uninvolved administrator and email a request for help. Jehochman 15:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Cirt, don't jab JustaHulk with a sharp stick if you want to be left alone. Jehochman 15:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Works for me. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

My obsession

"Cyber-terrorism is the leveraging of a target's computers and information technology, particularly via the Internet, to cause physical, real-world harm or severe disruption of infrastructure."

Block review

Could someone take a look at User talk:Podcito with regards to the unblock request posted there? I tried to be nice with a short block initially, but the editor continued to make personal attacks on its talk page, and it definitely suggests that despite four decent edits six months ago it's kind of gone all /b/ tonight, so I indeffed as a vandal-only account. There are still some PAs being flung about on the page, so I figured I'd bring it up here. Tony Fox (arf!) 08:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Not worth giving the time of day. Good block. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Hut 8.5 10:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the sanity check; I just wanted to be sure I hadn't jumped to the indef too quickly. Tony Fox (arf!) 23:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

3RR request

I was going to block PIO (talk · contribs) for WP:3RR but thought it might be a WP:COI. They have been adding in text to Association football (history). They have been reverted by three different editors and warned on their talkpage. Could someone review please. Woody (talk) 13:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Have now blocked after repeated edits. Can't see it being contentious, but request review. Woody (talk) 14:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

PIO has requested an unblock. D.M.N. (talk) 14:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed and commented on his talkpage. I will defer to the reviewing admin given that he believes I have a COI. Woody (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Woody - you should not have blocked this editor. You have a conflict of interest as you are involved in the edit war. That said. I'm seeing no evidence of discussion by the user and they did break the 3RR. I'm going to void your block and institute my own. Spartaz 18:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

At some point, it isn't a content dispute as much as it is an issue over the English language. I reviewed his edits for the last two weeks and he has been adding the same unintelligible content to soccer articles repeatedly. I'm sure it's in good faith, but the fact is that all of the good faith in the world doesn't change "Australian rules football is national and most popular sport for many source" into good English. If an editor persists in adding indisputably bad content, there's nothing wrong with an admin doing something about it. --B (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Always better to have an uninvolved admin do the block - its easy to miss the line on this kind of thing. Spartaz 19:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Accepted, and I apologise if I over stepped the mark. Woody (talk) 19:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair-use image deletion deadlines (update)

Please click "show" above and have a look at the backlogs arriving soon in the "disputed fair use images" dated categories. The current backlog of 793 for 15 January (I'm linking to permalinks to show the number of images on those days) has decreased from 1784 when it was first created. Most of this seems to be images being fixed, though I haven't fully checked that. That is about 1000 in 12 days. The current deadline on Category:Disputed non-free images as of 15 January 2008 is 23:59 on Sunday 03 February. I added that deadline and I'm still happy with that. Is there a good place to get agreement on that deadline? Secondly, there are two other big backlogs rapidly approaching. There are 2567 remaining to be reviewed in Category:Disputed non-free images as of 21 January 2008 (originally 4061), and 4058 (originally 4677) in Category:Disputed non-free images as of 24 January 2008. Normally, these images would be deleted after 7 days. The practice so far has been to extend the deadline some indeterminate amount. Given that these two runs by Betacommandbot were done rather close together (3 days apart), what would be the best way to determine a suitable extension here? An extra week? An extra two weeks? I asked Betacommand on his talk page recently, and he said he was near the end of doing these runs. For now, I've put dates of 10th and 17th February on them. It isn't terribly clear where this sort of thing should be discussed, or with whom, and it seems no-one else is attempting to manage the backlogs. To avoid future disputes, I'd appreciate it if people could object to or endorse this action, here. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC) 16:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC) (timestamp update - want to make sure people get a chance to see this)

Deletion discussion due for decision

Mmm alliteration. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Warrior's Return. It's been open for about a month now, so if a non-involved admin could take some action there, I'd appreciate it. Metros (talk) 01:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Closed. How it slipped through the cracks is beyond me. hbdragon88 (talk) 02:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for sysops for Khmer Misplaced Pages!

Helo! Now Khmer wikipedia has no khmer admins(sysops). There are 2 sysops on Khmer Misplaced Pages but they had no any actions on it. They are not Khmer, So I am Khmer. Now Khmer wikipedia has vandalized by some people. We can't stop these action. So we ask for Khmer sysops to protect Khmer wikipedia from any destroying.

My account on Khmer wikipedia is User:តឹក ប៊ុនលី.

Best Regard! —Preceding unsigned comment added by តឹក ប៊ុនលី (talk • contribs) 13:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Please go to Requests for permissions and request temporary access, we aren't able to do anything for you here. Sorry. MER-C 13:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is an open vandalism report at meta found here. Woody (talk) 13:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The person who started this notice is a troll. What they are trying to tell people in a secret way is to vandalize Khmer Misplaced Pages because they are saying the police (administrators) are away. It is working. In the past few hours, Khmer Misplaced Pages has been flooded with many vandals blanking pages. Stop this trolling. Sandra123234345 (talk) 19:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:AGF. Though, per WP:BEANS, a request on meta with no fanfare would probably have been a better course of action.—Random832 14:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Frankly Sandra is wrong. The above user is now a sysop on the Khmer wikipedia to help stop persistent vandalism attacks which have been ongoing for a week. I don't think the user knew about meta until I told them. Woody (talk) 15:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:IPtalk proposal

I propose to add a template on anonymous user talk pages directing them to view the bottom of the page. Please read and comment: Misplaced Pages:IPtalk proposal. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 14:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

A brief note to let you know I'm signing off WP

Not that you should be sorry to lose me. The administrator Tyrenius (talk) 05:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC) welcomed me here only about a month ago. If you look at the new notice on my user page, you'll probably feel I'm too angry, too unfair, and didn't give WP enough chance. Perhaps so. Very briefly, my reasons are:

• I feel that Wikipedians are too involved with process (guidelines, policies) items that are good in themselves -- but easily become restrictive and a goal in themselves. People game the system, and use legalism for their own agenda. Meanwhile, I know what you think a "good article" is, but I find it hard to visualize writing what I'd think is "good." Simply put, there's too much tunnel vision - in the name of ideas that were originally good.
• I'm deeply offended and hurt by WP's continued refusal to allow LGBT users a category, such as "gay wikipedians," so those who wish to can identify ourselves. Our oppression in the larger society is caused by the fact that we're pressured to hide -- and then people can pretend we're just a fringe group that makes no contribution to society. WP expects to continue the same policy, to rip off what we can give but not let us identify our otherwise maligned group, even only to other editors.

I would point out that the user Avruchtalk happened to be the immediate cause of my anger spilling over in both of these areas. Last evening, he unilaterally, illogically moved my discussion contributions to an area where they wouldn't be seem. And then he topped that off by informing me that he'd been the one who nominated Category:Gayass Wikipedians for deletion -- and, with the discussion still open, it was a done deal that I'd better learn to accept. His actions are not by any means the only ones leading to my decision to leave -- but they are beautifully symbolic of the issues.

Good bye.William P. Coleman (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• I object to the implicit insult in Coleman's many 'sign-off' posts (each one is the last one). I am not anti-homosexual, homophobic, bigoted, biased against gay people, whatever else you'd like to throw at me to see what sticks. I merely cleaned up an AfD, where the consensus after the fact is that it was unproblematic to do so. (This is the Adult-chid sex AfD). Coincidentally, Coleman also is apparently a recent member of the "Gayass Wikipedian" category, which I nominated at UCfD and which is headed for deletion. I attempted to leave explanatory notes on Coleman's user talk, but apparently to no effect. Its unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door. If Coleman finds at some point in the future that perhaps he can accomplish this task, then I hope he returns. 23:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'd also like to express some disappointment that it appears no one has refuted his implication of bias in my actions on this page or any of the others (so far as I know, I haven't checked them all). 23:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a hell of a lot of homophobia on Misplaced Pages, and a profound unwillingness from admins-in-general (there are of course some honourable exceptions) to root it out. I can readily understand why an editor should become so disillusioned as to need to leave. DuncanHill (talk) 19:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sexual orientation is irrelevant here. This is an encyclopedia, not a singles bar. HalfShadow (talk) 19:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with "singles bars". Building an encyclopædia of this nature requires that all editors are able to edit honestly and openly - something which is prevented by the attitudes and actions of certain users. DuncanHill (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I do hope that you're referring to something more than a few categories being deleted. – Steel 19:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope that comment wasn't meant to sound as snidey as it did.DuncanHill (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that User:HalfShadow assumed that a category identifying gay Wikipedians would purely be used as a dating service, probably sums up the original poster's point more succinctly that anything else could. BLACKKITE 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the topic creator seems to think the fact that he's gay matters in any way, shape, or form says quite a lot as well. He is what he is: does he need a badge for it? HalfShadow (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec)With all due respect to William P. Coleman and DuncanHill, the fact that these categories cause so much upset and dispute is the reason we delete them. There is nothing stopping people expressing their sexuality on Misplaced Pages (I'm heterosexual, if anyone cares) but there is no need for a category. Deleting these categories is not intended to be homophobia- we would also delete a category for heterosexual Wikipedians. We delete them because they do not aid us in building the encyclopedia, and, if anything, they slow us down through the disputes they cause. J Milburn (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed about the categories; I was merely commenting on the assumption made by HalfShadow. BLACKKITE 20:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, it was you I edit conflicted with, I intended my reply to come after DuncanHill's comment at 19:47. J Milburn (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been here since 2004. I've been repeatedly attacked by vandals because I've openly declared that I'm gay. But never once has anyone who cared about the encyclopedia - even people I've got into huge editing disputes with, even people I've picked fights with, even people with strong conservative or religious views - ever even mentioned sexuality. We don't here. In fact, people lose arguments, badly and permanently, if they try to play any form of sex, sexuality, race, religion, etc, card. We don't do it. This place is amazing for that. And it works both ways: I've defended people under attack from vandals or for their editing style even when they've got userboxen calling for my basic rights to be curtailed; I've had barnstars from people who declare that homosexuality is wrong, and have given barnstars to such people. They are, of course, entitled to their worthless views ;o) There is a community here, and people who act outside that community sooner rather than later end up exiting it. And the community has decided, a long time ago, that everyone has a right to challenge any element of community structure - templates, user pages, categories - and each case is taken on its merits. The community decides if we need specific groups to be identified and in what way. So, William P. Coleman, please stay. HalfShadow, please don't make sweeping judgements. Avruch, if you're about, feel free to deny Mr Coleman's point and we'll believe you. But battling over the subject of what editors do when they're not editing is something we try not to do. We are here only to build an encyclopaedia, after all. ➔ REDVEЯS is standing in the dark 20:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A category is not just "identifying yourself", it's maintaining a list, and the decision was made that there's no good reason to have such a list. —Random832 20:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen editors personally attacked and accused of being pædophiles because they opposed deletion of a category for homophobes - and admins took no action against the attacker for this. This does not inspire confidence in the ability or willingness of admins to act against homophobia. I would add that the community can be wrong - and I say it is wrong when it says that Wikipedians by ethnicity or by religion are acceptable user categories, yet Wikipedians by sexuality aren't, and I believe that it is displaying homophobia whenever it restates this position. DuncanHill (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict): I am looking at this from the periphery ... part of the problem is that there have been perennial disputes about whether Article space and User space or Wikpedia space should intersect in meaningful ways. The Userbox wars were in part about the intersection between Template and User spaces. Likewise there has been a lowerkey (as far as I've seen) UserCat war that is similarly about the intersection between Category and User spaces. One thing I've seen over and over again is people putting forth one mechanistic solution - like using a category - and not seeking alternative mechanisms; oftentimes mechanism changes can, in fact, defuse conflicts of this sort. So here is my suggestion - use a subpage of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject LGBT as a point of recognition for sexual orientation with the legitimate argument that persons belonging to a community have a valuable perspective on that community which has a positive impact on the encyclopedia. Placing this under the rubrick of the LGBT WP provides 'ownership' for the resource, which might allay some of the concerns of persons who are against (for whatever reason) sharing this type of information. As far as the argument that such a list should not exist at all, a great deal of latitude is provided to WikiProjects with regard to the creation of resources that are felt to advance the encyclopedia-building activities of the group of similarly inclined editors around which a WikiProject forms. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I take my usual position here - that categories that appear to be irrelevant to the purpose of writing the encyclopedia are valuable for community-building and building support circles, which provide incentive and motivation for many encyclopedia-related activities. People who interact are bound to collaborate, and any structure promoting this is a good thing. Dcoetzee 22:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That is rather the point of a wikiproject, is it not? Putting me in a category that says I am a fan of the Calgary Flames does not serve to enhance collaboration. My membership in WP:HOCKEY, however, does. More to the point, my being a nominally Christian Canadian does not automatically mean I am particularly interested in editing topics related to Christianity or Canada. So no, putting me in such categories does not enhance collaboration at all. Same is true of virtually every user category. There are better mechanisms in place to enhance collaboration. Resolute 23:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Need for user pages?

Does user pages help Misplaced Pages at all? Is it just a concession to myspace? My user page is only 5 characters more than the minimum. It says hello. No user boxes. No fancy graphics. I can see the value of talk pages, but user pages? We'd save bandwidth and controversy. If there is an explanation why user pages are useful, I am open minded. Spevw (talk) 01:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

My userpage here is not as sparse as yours, but for an example of highly useful userpages, see mine at enwikibooks. My toolbox provides insane convinence, and the number of "why did you delete that?" and "what does {{nld}} mean?" threads on my talk page have dropped to almost nothing due to the header, which also appears collapsed at the top of my talk page. – Mike.lifeguard |  02:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

A user page is a desktop from which to work on the encyclopedia. Sometimes there are bobble head dolls or a stand-up "I love (insert state here)!" cardboard cutout vying for space alongside an in-box and a pile of partially written reports, and that is what you will see when walking down the corridor past open cubicles on the way to your next meeting in most office settings. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 04:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Perfect metaphor. I completely agree. нмŵוτнτ 06:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well my Misplaced Pages user page predates MySpace, so they've been around for a long time. Their intent is to help build community, to provide a clue about the personality of its owner. (Mine is utalitarian but somewhat raggedy-looking because I'd rather spend my time getting content into Misplaced Pages than making it look nice. Or else because I'm lazy. Take your pick.) I wish more people would take a moment & put someting on their user pages -- not userboxen, or fancy graphics or images. Just something about oneself, one's interests, one's background as far as it's relevant to Misplaced Pages. Then if I need to talk to them, I have a sense of how to present myself to them. -- llywrch (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Visibility

A Gay Wikipedians category establishes visibility. It's easy to allow the inertia of systemic bias to remain when the issue is relatively low on the radar. However, such a category helps support WP's goals of harmonious collaboration by giving those who identify as "Gayass Wikipedians" (and I'm one of them) the same kind of respect as say, oh I don't know, "Christian Wikipedians". Seriously, can you imagine the furor if WP editors tried to WP:Censor Christians from self-identifying? Please. No really, let's go back and reread this whole thread replacing "gay" with "Christian", or "Jewish", or "Muslim". If a gay usercat is verboten, then all usercats should be. I'll be blunt, this seems an awful lot like bigotry.

Visibility of self-identified gay or queer editors makes for a more welcoming editing environment. Categories also allow new editors to find a community - and yes, technically, a list on a project talk page is good, but again, not that visible or accessible. It can take new users a while to get into the backdrop of WP, and sometimes a while is all it takes for new users to feel like they lack a voice, become disenchanted, and leave. Besides, I find all sorts of neat stuff (relevant and useful to WP) on other users' talk pages, pages I find in user categories. As to Resolute's point about being a Christian/Canadian, it doesn't hold water, as usercats are chosen by the user. If usercats are not relevant to an editor's interests, s/he is under no obligation to use them. Phyesalis (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Either we allow all such good faith categories, or we delete them all. I would favor deleting them all, including Category:Christian Wikipedians, Category:Jewish Wikipedians and Category:Muslim Wikipedians because they are divisive, and Misplaced Pages is not a social networking site. It's not about us the editors. If editors want to group together, they can form a WikiProject. Jehochman 14:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I find this discussion interesting in light of: Wikipedians by education, Wikipedians by ethnicity and nationality, Wikipedians by hardware, Wikipedians by interest, Wikipedians by language, Wikipedians by location, Wikipedians by philosophy, Wikipedians by profession, Wikipedians by religion, Wikipedians by skill, Wikipedians by software

I would like the above editors supportive of deleting sexuality as a cat, come out boldly in favor of, and actually submit dels on all these user cats. Is location relevant, is religion relevant, is skill or software or hardware relevant? Thanks I look forward to seeing massive amounts of cat deletions. Whoo Hooo. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Location is relevant because it implies easy ability to take pictures of local things. Religion is not relevant. _some_ software proficiencies are relevant, such as SVG or animated GIF authoring tools, javascript, CSS, wikipedia's own template syntax, but I would say the vast majority probably aren't. I would agree that religion categories should be deleted, just as political affiliation categories were back in August.—Random832 04:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion nomination withdrawn

• I had the mistaken belief that deleting these categories was sort of routine, and nominated based on the recent deletion of very similar categories. Apparently, the act of nominating the category for deletion is far more disruptive and divisive than the category itself. I would have no issue if it were renamed to something that had previously been deleted, because it seems like there is no firm consensus on the topic of user categories. I didn't cherry pick the Gayass Wikipedians category intentionally... Since I had the LGBT project talk page watchlisted, I just happen to notice when it was created as sort of a joke. Clearly this has generated significant ill-will in the community, which was not at all my intent. I have withdrawn the nomination of the category for deletion. 15:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Avruch for withdrawing the nomination, I think this shews a real commitment to listening to the community and acting in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. DuncanHill (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Complaint withdrawn

Since I left Misplaced Pages, Avruch has made obviously sincere attempts to explain that he did not intend prejudice, and he's made several gestures of reconciliation, of which withdrawing the deletion nomination was only one. There may have been mutual misunderstanding, but it's more important that there clearly was no malice, as there was none on my part either. I accept his explanations, I thank him for his gestures, I bear him no ill will, and I apologize for whatever degree I was the cause of our misunderstanding.

My frustration with Misplaced Pages has therefore cooled down to just below the boiling point and I am returning.

I would like to very sincerely thank several kind people who spoke decently about gays during the discussion. William P. Coleman (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you're back to stay. Hope to collaborate with you on future projects, нмŵוτнτ 18:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Would either William or Avruch please expand a little on the "several gestures of reconciliation" mentioned above? I have been looking around at this issue, and am willing to accept that Avruch did not anticipate his action would be controversial, but I am still concerned about much of what I have read. That there is homophobia on WP is hard to deny - one only needs to glance up at User:HalfShadow's comment above for an illustration. And yet, Avruch's response has been a defence of himself coupled with comments like "Its unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door." Rather than recognising that homophobia is objectionable (whatever the intent of his actions), Avruch appears to suggest that double standards and bias are something that anyone identifying as Queer simply needs to accept - which is rougly why William left in the first place. I agree that the withdrawal of the nomination was a positive step, but am concerned that the motivation was to remove controversy over a "disruptive and divisive" category (as Avruch put it), rather than in recognition that there is a genuine issue of bias here. I am also puzzled that Avruch has made few edits in the LGBT area (as he notes on the project talk page), but had it watchlisted. Now, of course, he has the right to watch (or edit) any WP page, and it is not my intention to attack here. I just don't want to go away from this discussion without trying to understand what gestures William has seen, and I would much prefer to be able to move on feeling as comfortable about Avruch as William apparently is now. Jay*Jay (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes its better to let an issue settle on its own, but apparently that is not to be in this case. My comments regarding Coleman were made when I was pretty upset at the imputation of homophobic or anti-gay motives to my nomination and other actions. My comments were intemperate, but I submit that I was pretty upset at the time. I would echo what I said on his talkpage and here: that it would be unfortunate if Coleman were to be unable to find a role for himself here that he finds acceptable. I'm not sure that active advocacy is an easy role to fill, as it finds somewhat less sympathy than perhaps it deserves in a community focused on public content. At no point did I argue that "Double standards and bias" are something that anyone should accept. I have the LGBT project talk page watchlisted because I asked a question on it about whether Matt Sanchez (Matt Sanchez) should be considered as within the LGBT-scope. I don't think he identifies as LGBT, so I wasn't sure if former gay pornographic performers would be considered LGBT.

• Avruch, I agree that sometimes leaving well alone is the best approach, and I did consider not saying anything - but then decided that that would be unfair to you, as it would mean my (and possibly others) leaving with an impression that may not be warranted. I wanted to understand, and to give you the chance to respond.
• I understand why you were upset, and recognise that we all act on emotion at times. Indeed, my actions here may well be equally criticised on such a basis. I recall an incident years ago where I was accused of making a homophobic remark, and I still regret that I have never had the chance to apologise for the offence that I caused - even though it arose from a misinterpretation of my comment. My anger at the accusation prevented my seeing how my comment could be seen from his perspective until later, and I've never had the chance to address his (likely still) negative impression. I am impressed with your actions in seeking your roommate's opinion, which has left you able to do something to address the situation. William has accepted your explanation (which is great for both of you), but I guess this serves to illustrate that he was not the only one aggrieved. I would encourage you to look at this as an opportunity for reflection on the potential for misinterpretation in written communication when emotions are raised. For example, I saw your comment that he should "check his opinions at the door" as a reference to opinions like homophobia is never acceptable, especially in light of the homophobic comments made elsewhere in this discussion and your description of the category in question as "diisruptive and divisive" - hence my "double standards and bias" comment. Hopefully, this is not what you meant, and on reflection I see that you may have been in fact referring back to the importance of NPOV.
• As regards inclusion of the page Matt Sanchez in the LGBT project, I now recall that question being raised, and that makes your watchlisting completely understandable. On that point, I think it should be so included, although I agree that he does not identify as LGBT. The content of the page clearly does have relevance to the LGBT project. FYI, whatever Matt Sanchez's self-identification may be, there are a lot of people in the LGBT community who would view him as a gay or bi based on his actions no matter what he states publicly - and many would also suggest he has internalised homophobia issues. Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the various positions on Matt, I can't see any reason to not include his page as part of the LGBT project. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• As far as withdrawing the nomination - the disruptive and divisive nature of the debate, coupled with the clear fact that consensus on the larger issue has not been achieved, was wholly my reason for withdrawing the nom. At first I was surprised that it was viewed as an attack on WP LGBT editors, but after it blew up a bit I discussed it with my roommate (who is quite emphatically lesbian) and found that from her perspective it was quite a reasonable response. I didn't withdraw it as an attempt to counteract systemic bias, per se, and I counted it unnecessary to argue from my decidedly inexpert opinion over the presence and effect of such bias. It is clear that the issue of categories and userboxes (and etc. other usage of userspace) is something that has to be decided as a single question of purpose. It is exceedingly difficult to resolve the problem case by case, because each separate nomination is seen as an attack on a particular person or group of people - whether it was intended to be or not. I regret that it happened in this case, and you can be sure that I will exercise far more care in any future user category or userbox deletion nominations. 02:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that the issue is best dealt with at a meta-level with a discussion of all user categories. In retrospect, it might have been much better to use the need for a global discussion and conclusion, rather than a case-by-case approach, as the rationale for the closure here . I certainly was concerned that your use of "controversial and divisive" to describe the category reflected an underlying anti-queer perspective, which is partly why I am now here. FWIW, Avruch, I now think that the context surrounding all of this had led me to an inaccurate perception of you, and so engaging in this dialog has been worthwhile (at least from my perspective). Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Update

When I posted the above, I was under a misimpression. The last time I'd seen the Gayass Wikipedians category, Avruchtalk had withdrawn his deletion nomination and closed the discussion. I was about to go back to the LGBT group and suggest that we rename the category to "LGBT" or "Queer" or something less inflammatory and much more inclusive to the whole LGBT community. Now I find that someone else reopened it and reclosed it and the category has now been deleted. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is so legalistic that I just spend an hour trying to figure out what happened so I could complain in a rational way. So far, I haven't been able to do that.

For Misplaced Pages at this stage in the discussion to turn around and make a point of denying the LGBT a category (to be suitably renamed) is an unbelievably blatant insult and an outrage.

My question now is how -- without becoming a Wikilawyer and spending my whole life on the legalities -- could I and the rest or the GLBT community secure a category with a reasonable name of our own choosing, and then know that it would stay that way for at least a while?

I still appreciate Avruchtalk's efforts at reconciliation, and I still appreciate those others who've tried to help, but my astonishment with Misplaced Pages in general is boundless. William P. Coleman (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There is a DRV for "Queer Wikipedians" that has a good chance of succeeding. 20:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The DRV can be found at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2008_January_21#Category:Queer_Wikipedians. DuncanHill (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Note that this discussion continued under a heading like "Better Forum?" (don't recall exact name), but was separated by Avruch. That now-separated discussion is located here. I have also removed the placing of this discussion in an archive box so that it can be more easily linked in future. Jay*Jay (talk) 05:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Religious debates over Harry Potter sock puppetry

This anonymous user has received repeated blocks for continuously re-inserting this unsourced opinion piece into the above article without discussion, despite repeated requests for NPOV and verification. Although currently on a one-month suspension, the user has employed sock-puppetry to conduct his/her edit war first using this alternate account and now shifting to this new account. I would like the new account blocked and, if feasible, the blocks on the other two accounts extended. Serendious 21:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The former address hasn't edited for a few days, so blocking will not be preventative. I have blocked the latter addy for 48 hours. If the vandalism continues after the block expires we can be fairly certain that it is static and block again for longer. Regarding the month long blocked addy I don't see the point of extending it if the editor has already moved to a new one - indeed I invite comment on whether it should be lifted in case the address is assigned to another individual in the meantime who may wish to edit WP constructively. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, we have an IP editor inserting nonsense to an FA article from multiple IP addresses, and no one requests page protection? I'll semi-protect the article. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

One editor using sequential ip addresses as the old one is blocked, it appears, rather than multiples. I had a quick look and the article does get some (but not huge) ip traffic. I'm usually not keen to sprotect articles where there is ip interaction outside of the vandals, but I suppose a regular can request unprotection if there are complaints. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Offsite canvassing?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requesting a neutral review of this offsite forum post, which appears to come from Danaullman, and seeks contact with banned Sm565 or with people who have had previous experience on wikipedia, whether it be trying to change the listing for "homeopathy" or for something else. It raises an eyebrow and I'm not sure what to make of it. Durova 07:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Also a request here for maintaining their biography. Cool Hand Luke 07:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

So what's the problem? "In case you haven't seen or heard, they have been messing with the listing that exists for me at wikipedia, and because I am not allowed to make changes myself at my own listing (due to "conflict of interest" issues), I must ask others to help and to revisit my listing regularly to keep things accurate." Sounds like a legitimate BLP concern on the editor's part. Nor do I see any canvassing going on. Doesn't raise my eyebrows at all, but then, I'm not hypersensitive to such things, and don't have a tendency to misread good-faith edits as secretly evil intentions. --Jim Butler 08:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the normal way to address legitimate BLP concerns would be through WP:OTRS, WP:BLPN, and the relevant wikiprojects. I'll step forward myself and offer to start a new biography for They even deleted the short biography of HARRIS COULTER, PhD, from wikipedia, despite the fact that he is a leading historian on homeopathy. if someone provides me with appropriate sources and he meets notability guidelines. I'm concerned by these unorthodox methods and would like to move forward through regular means in good faith. Durova 08:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a very kind offer, and I suspect Dana will be very well equipped to help, being well-known homeopath. I'll help as well if I can; IMO, there has been too much deletionism with homeopathy articles (per WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOTPAPER, it's not undue weight to have them... fer cryin' out loud, we cover the heck out of popular colture trivia). On the editor's off-wiki requests, I think it's very likely that, being unfamiliar with policy, he just didn't know how else to do it. all the best, Jim Butler 09:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You might want to check those dates and then look at Dana's block log to see why he might not have addressed his concerns through internal channels. —Whig (talk) 09:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

OTRS is accessible through e-mail, and nearly all site admins have e-mail enabled. And come to think of it, if there's sufficient material I'll submit it for Template:Did you know. They require 2000 characters these days, which comes to about 500 words. If there's a freely licenced portrait (not fair use) that would help. Follow up at my user talk or via e-mail to provide sources. Best wishes, Durova 09:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, DYK is back to 1500 chars. It was raised to 2000 because of the big backlog, but now the backlog is gone it's back to the old limit. Gatoclass (talk) 11:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the heads up. Roughly 300 words then. Well, let's see how Dana responds. Durova 11:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) What concerns me about this offsite forum post is that it seeks people who have edited the homeopathy article, and asks for an email contact, not indicating any reason. Maybe I just have an overactive imagination, but it is conceivable that the suggestion might be made to come and support Whig in his RfC, or to seek further criticism of Vanished user. Now, I have no evidence at all to offer, but this happening soon after Dana commented on that RfC, and the view of homeopathy shared by Whig and many of those posting in support (including Dana), seems an odd coincidence to me - especially given the time Adam and Whig have both spent on the homeopathy article. Of course, looking at the other link, it could also suggest recruiting for a new push to make a pro-, as opposed to neutral homeopathy article. Or, it could be about changing Dana's page. In any case, an uninvolved admin keeping an eye out for a while would be very helpful in case anything noteworthy appears. EdChem (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This was over a month ago. He was blocked from the site and not familiar with how things work here, such as OTRS or BLPN, which I'm sure Durova is aware. He's since been unblocked, obviously, and adopted (by me), and we're working on his editing of Homeopathic articles which, by the way, is all he's interested in. So conspiracy theories really won't accomplish much. It's also discouraging to see editors bring up issues they have with another editor and not be bothered to inform that editor of the thread but instead rely on someone else to notice and do it for them. Lara❤Love 14:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Durova would have notified. I spotted the thread a moment after it was posted, and let the editor know because I was keen to help, given that I was also a named party in the Matthew Hoffman arbitration. Good faith is a two way street. I'd appreciate if you and Jim Butler above would stop insinuating that other editors harbor conspiracy theories or imagine secretly evil intentions. Jehochman 14:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Lara, my apologies, I read the date as 26Jan, not 26Dec, and the difference in timing makes a huge difference. As such, striking my comments seems appropriate. If the end part of your comment is directed at me, then I'm not sure what you mean. Please explain. EdChem (talk) 14:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, the comment I referred to as "conspiracy theories" has now been struck, so while I understand that you like to interject yourself into every possible issue in this section of Misplaced Pages—as I've seen your name in every conflict I've encountered outside of the article space since adopting Dana—I would appreciate it if you would calm down on the enthusiasm and let editors handle their own situations. Lastly, if there isn't some bad faith assumption here, why exactly are off-site forum logs from over a month ago being posted here now; after he's been unblocked and adopted by an admin and constructively editing for some time now? You're quite right. That little acronym that gets thrown around here more than any other, with the possible exception of CIV, is a two-way street. Perhaps it would be best to keep your own comments in mind before making them to someone else. Lara❤Love 14:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(EC) It would be rather presumptive of us to assume that that request is an attempt to initiate an action that would violate policy here. Such an assumption is a clear violation of WP:AGF. Personally, I think it goes waay beyond the scope of this project or the mandate given the administrators here to go poking around off-wiki trying to find out what editors, even banned editors, are "up to". I'll tell you what I would "make of it". Were I of a mind to expend the effort, I might decide to keep an eye on the article and the editor and see if there is anything untoward going on and address that through proper channels. Other than that, I would keep my "discovery" to myself. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

LaraLove, if you have concerns about why Durova posted the link, you could ask her. If you have concerns about my editing, please feel free to leave me a message. Jehochman 15:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear, LaraLove, that you've adopted Dana and together are working on his editing of Homeopathic articles "which, by the way, is all he's interested in". His interest evidently extends to loosely related articles, such as Charles Darwin, where his addition clearly gave undue weight to homeopathy as one of the many remedies CD tried out for his illness, without noting that CD abandoned the water cure because his records showed no real effect. Dana's interest in promoting homeopathy and tendency to see things from that perspective are of course understandable, and trust that care will be taken to avoid distorting articles. ..dave souza, talk 15:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, I don't need to drop messages on either Durova's or your talk page. The issue was brought here, so I'll deal with it here. And Dave, yes, he also edits articles not directly in the Homeopathic category, but it is always edits involving Homeopathy. And, as you'll note on the talk page of that article, I was present for the discussions. Lara❤Love 16:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, Lara - I ought to have dropped a line at Dana's user talk immediately. Given the hour when this came up, it probably doesn't matter. I followed up there pretty quickly. If you believe this is not the appropriate venue you're welcome to mark this thread "resolved". My offer to start the new article stands.

And Jehochman, I am disappointed to see you try to tell other people where they should or shouldn't communicate with me. You have no permission to speak on my behalf. Durova 19:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My goodness, I have done no such thing. The word I used was could, as in you could ask her. This is different from the word should. I do occasionally encourage editors to talk to each other when they seem to have a disagreement. This all started because I noticed that you had forgoten to notify somebody that you were talking about them in a public forum. Yes, WP:AN is on my watchlist. You've reminded me a few times that people should have a say in matters that affect them. How can they have a say if they don't know about the conversation? Jehochman 19:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Durova, thank you for your thoughtful response. Jehochman, my best advice to you is to stop interjecting yourself into matters of conflict. Durova and I have limited interaction, but what little there has been has always been positive. I believe that both she and I are capable of handling these sort of situations without your interference, which obviously does not always help. I noticed after my original comment here that Durova left notice on my talk page about the same time you left notice on Dana's talk page. Perhaps if you had the let the involved parties deal with the situation, there would have been no confusion, as she may have posted the notice herself. Regardless, this issue is resolved. Hopefully Dana and Durova will be able to work out that biography. Durova's impressive article writing combined with Dana's knowledge, sources and enthusiasm should make for a wonderful addition to Misplaced Pages. Any further issues with Dana should first be discussed with me, unless something drastic should occur. Lara❤Love 19:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Two exclamation marks

I do not wish to start yet another discussion about the case of User:!!. I just have one question: why is this user still called a sockpuppet and a vandal on his user and talk page? Even weirder: according to the history, it was !! himself who created the page?! Could someone please explain? - Face 18:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

He was being sarcastic or facetious or one of those words. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, to much irony there for me to get at once. Maybe someone could at least add a little link to this or something? You know, for historic reasons? - Face 18:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What about the brightly-coloured happy bird on the right-hand side of the same page? Image:Animalibrí.gif ::131.111.8.97 (talk) 23:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Default in non-consensus blocks: guilty or innocent?

Request comment on: SBHarris 21:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Restore pls

Please restore Guy Ottewell to my userspace. He notable as one of the inventors of Approval voting, and I would like to convert his external link in that article's intro into a wikilink, and I should see the deleted version first. The deleting admin has retired.

Please let me know when done on my talk. Thank you. MilesAgain (talk) 22:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Er, the deleted article is a single sentence about an artist/writer with nothing but a link to his webpage. There's basically nothing to restore. I'd start from scratch. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Pookeo9

Just wanted to point out this RfA which is in dire need of more opinions as it ends today, and I am the only one to have voiced an opinion so far. Jackaranga (talk) 23:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't even transcluded. bibliomaniac15 23:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It's now transcluded & fixed - and I've asked a Bureaucrat to close it pre-emptively/early due to the nature of the nomination. SkierRMH (talk) 23:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Drawing attention to another one created by him: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/RC-0722 2. — Save_Us † 00:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I put the archive tags around it, hopefully Pookie will get the message. If not, some additional intervention might be necessary. 00:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There was also a Request for Mediation, found at Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Pookeo9. The request was rejected, archived, and the user so notified. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 01:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

, this is not his first time, he has created a few questionable noms before, he might need a little direction. Tiptoety 01:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

He's keen, that's obvious, and his enthusiasm shouldn't be stifled; but we only seem to have coaching for aspirant admins. I think sometimes we expect a lot of new, younger editors, because some of the policies are minefields of interpretation. Apart from welcoming them with the five pillars, I wonder how many are discouraged because they try things, get templated, and eventually lose heart? Just an idea. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, and that is where WP:BITE and WP:AGF come into play, like i said i think he needs someone to direct him a bit, and maybe explain to him the common prerequisites for admins here at the project. Maybe someone could offer him adoption? Tiptoety 01:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but what would you suggest as an alternative to archiving and removing the RfAs? This last one was for someone else, too. 01:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Note - He also created Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Burner0718 (which was deleted). Tiptoety 01:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

<-- I'm around pretty well most of the time. I could offer to adopt him, if only to stop him starting pointless process and give him some pointers. However, I'm pretty short on patience sometimes but know when to chill. Would this be a problem for anyone? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, as long as you are willing to ask for help if you get overwhelmed of feel like you are going to blow. He may just require a small amount of direction to proper policy pages. Tiptoety 01:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll suggest it to him. I'll give it a week & see how it goes. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

If it takes longer than that and you need a brake, I would be happy to help. Tiptoety 01:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Users intentions seem good Tiptoety 01:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, he is spot-on there, so clearly has some grasp. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Stalked by IP

This has been a long running issue for some reason beyond me an IP user Here contributions here has just pestered me left and right. The IP is guaranteed to be static and has been just attacking me left and right and has even been blocked on numerous occasions. I am bringing this up because the IP has attacked me once again but way after release of block. So it is not possible to report to WP:AIV. My only resort before was to go to admin directly and ask for help but this time seems to be late in the game. The most recent attack took place at a page I made (working on) the attack can be seen here and as you can see from the IP's talk page and contributions the attacks have been nonstop. I have warned the user for the edit. But as I missed it for four days (I have been technically on a Wikibreak). Anyways I need some advice or at least a little help in stopping the user. Rgoodermote  01:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I vote for a month-long ban. Bstone (talk) 01:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe the user has already received one, if my teachers taught me right 3 weeks is a month or maybe I should study..it is pretty darn close. Rgoodermote  01:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You may want to post this at AN/I, but with almost 1500 admins this really should have been looked at already. 5 hours with no admin attention and 1500 admins is simpy unacceptable. Bstone (talk) 06:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I blocked another month. IP doesn't seem to have been reassigned. Please give me a talk massage if this continues after another month. Cool Hand Luke 06:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This "talk massage" concept intrigues me. Tell me more. 72.16.99.113 (talk) 06:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I run an entirely reputable talk establishment, I assure you. Cool Hand Luke 06:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Khmer Encyclopedia

Khmer encyclopedia was attack by a bot that all its contents was destroyed. Please help take out this bot and undo the deleted contents. Thank you in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.17.210.8 (talk) 04:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the English Misplaced Pages. Please go to MetaWiki for assistance.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 06:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

'Its All FAke.And Misplaced Pages Is Wrong And Has To Admit Their Mistake..'''Italic text

Something odd on the Don Ho Page

The Don Ho Special is on right now, and when I went to look at his page, the protection tag at the bottom caught my eye. According to the talk page, the disputed move ended in June 2007. Unless i'm missing something.....?--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 06:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the tag, but the article kept getting moved by single purpose accounts against the talk page consensus, so the move protection can stay. If they wish to reopen the move discussion, that's what the talk page is for. Neıl ☎ 10:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Lightwing1988

He is very disruptive. He has something against one particular user, and for that reason, likes attacking that user. Please block him infinitely! 144.131.176.126 (talk) 08:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Lightwing hasn't edited in weeks, and NM hasn't edited in almost a year. And even if this were current, you would need to provide diffs. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Ahem

This page has a problem. The protect template is in the middle of this article when it should be at the beginning of the article. Could someone please fix this. 144.131.176.126 (talk) 10:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done Neıl ☎ 10:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Heads up

Not sure where to post this, but a state senator in Colorado wants to "use wikipedia" as a discussion forum for his "ski tax" proposal. I haven't been able to find any action being taken, but it was an odd idea. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 12:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Looks like the common wiki = wikipedia misconception. Guy (Help!) 14:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

If he starts, he should be informed about what Misplaced Pages is not - a site for personal essays or discussion forums, a soapbox or a BLOG|blog - so this isn't a place for him to open such a discussion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It sounds more like he wants help from wikipedia to set up his own Wiki. He's probably not that technical minded. I guess if someone has some spare time on their hands, it might be nice to help him set one up. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

But just in case we should be prepared for the masses to come. Rgoodermote  15:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Iamstevejobs

There's a problem with the blocked talkpage of Iamstevejobs. I don't know how, but he managed to add three help templates on the page. This disturbs the Wikipedians looking for help page. Please could someone remove the templates. Thank you.--Thw1309 (talk) 16:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. -- zzuuzz 16:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the really fast help. --Thw1309 (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Qst probation

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

I am closing this as a near unanimous "Good luck and get to it (ie probation removed) Viridae 05:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)"

• Qst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've been Qst's mentor since his unbanning some months back. He was initially banned because he got upset after an RfA and made some attacks and generally rattled a lot of people. I haven't had any problems with him, and he has become an extremely constructive user, creating many GA's, a featured portal and he's currently working on trying to get his first FA. He's also shown he has put any past unpleasent behaviour firmly behind him, and ever since he's been back he's been an extremely friendly user who has shown great ability to help other users. I think it's time Qst's restrictions are lifted as I feel they're no longer applicable (he's far from being in our list of most disruptive editors) and he can be left to get on with his own constructive work without a cloud above his shoulders. I'll stay on as an informal mentor to him, and I'll continue to help him whenever he needs it. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a no-brainer. Will 23:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Concur. Qst has earned the right to dignity and honour. Moreschi 23:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Strong endorse unbanning. One of our best editors, completely reformed since his original ban. Majorly (talk) 23:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly endorse. Keilana| 23:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse. I've seen this editor around discussions, and I didn't even know there was any past drama... which is a good thing. нмŵוτнτ 00:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• Can someone remind me what the restrictions are? WjBscribe 00:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
  • He's restricted from requesting adminship, and I don't seem to recall any other conditions. ~ Riana ⁂ 00:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Ever? Bstone (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Actually, just for a year, but I really hope (and don't expect) Qst to consider an RfA for a long time to come. The major restrictions I should add were revert parole and civility parole - with even a hint of infringements getting a block - I can assure you he doesn't need this. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
        • Understood. Not like being an admin means you're a super editor. It's means you now armed with certain tools and have been cautiously entrusted with the community's trust. Makes sense it should be at least a year before this fellow to consider an RfA. Bstone (talk) 01:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse unbanning, somewhat cautiously. ~ Riana ⁂ 00:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
  • That was rude of me. Qst has given me no reason in the recent past to believe that he will lapse into incivility. ~ Riana ⁂ 03:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
• Comment - I should have made this clear - the RfA restriction was only a minor concern, what I really hope is that we can relieve Qst from civility and revert parole that the community gave to him as well. He's been great since his return and I've seen no problems whatsoever with his editing. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Endorse unbanning. Tiptoety 03:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ryan said he'd talk to Qst about a rather serious issue which has developed recently, but existed for quite a while. Until Ryan has confirmed that he has indeed done this, I cannot support yet. Ryan, you know the issue, no need to elaborate on details here - feel free to confirm either here or via email that you have discussed it and had an appropriate response/promise from Qst, then I will support this. Daniel (talk) 04:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

•  Done, however the serious issue that you refer to is common with many users on IRC (especially admins), not that I approve of it in the slightest, but I can assure you it won't reoccur. The issue did not come under the terms of his parole anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Given my clarification discussion with Ryan, where he promised me that he would endorse (or even execute it technically) blocking for the issue which has raised concerns, or another issue which may come up in the future, and Ryan's assurance that Qst has promised to discontinue the behaviour, I endorse the removal of the formal probation. Ryan will hopefully continue as mentor and continue to counsel Qst on inappropriate behaviour should it occur, as well as uphold his promise about blocking should it be required. Daniel (talk) 05:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)