| Revision as of 20:19, 27 February 2008 editChaldean (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users14,990 edits →Iraqi Christians← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:30, 2 March 2008 edit undoBabychimp16 (talk | contribs)32 edits →Iraqi ChristiansNext edit → | ||
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| I am Catholic --] (]) 19:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC) | I am Catholic --] (]) 19:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :Chaldean Catholic or Syriac Catholic or what? ] (]) 20:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC) | :Chaldean Catholic or Syriac Catholic or what? ] (]) 20:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC) | ||
| My mother is Syriac Catholic and my father is Chaldean Catholic. There are no Arabic churches where I live so my family go to a Roman Catholic church but sometimes we get Arab priests from London to come down to our area to hold an Arabic mass, one is Chaldean Catholic, the other is Syriac Catholic, and the other is Orthodox. --] (]) 18:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Stats== | ==Stats== | ||
Revision as of 18:30, 2 March 2008
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| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Arabic speaking Christians redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Can we keep the article for now?
- Once the article Egyptians is fixed and it defines who is Copt (minority mainly christian) and who is Arab (majority mainly muslim).
- And I hope we try to be fair, regardless of how rude some Copts were. Facts should be stated--Skatewalk 04:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I have only spoken about what my opinion is. However, we can still leave it the way it is AS LONG AS these statements aren't just politically motivated. The opinion of how people think of themselves is just as important. ~ Troy 16:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- The opinion of how people think of themselves is just as important. — No, Ad populum fallacies is out of question. If you are let's say, an ethnic German, you don't become an Arab, because you suddenly change your opinion about your ethnicity (for whatever reason). It's about biological descent. To some extent, the language you speak, is a decisive factor in this process. But it of course, must be your native language. Not a language that was imposed on your ancestors. — EliasAlucard|Talk 04:55 10 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I have only spoken about what my opinion is. However, we can still leave it the way it is AS LONG AS these statements aren't just politically motivated. The opinion of how people think of themselves is just as important. ~ Troy 16:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is not an ad populum fallacy simply because the definition of "belonging to a group", in any way, depends largely on how one perceives himself. If it were, as you said, a biological descent then most Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders as well as a considerable percentage of South Americans are European and mostly British! Do you think, as an example, it would be correct to say that most of the English people are either French or Scandinavian since the "original" ethnicity there was Celtic?
- If we wanted to go on we could argue that Europeans are actually not Europeans at all because they originally migrated there from Asia and ultimately from Africa!
- Moreover, the definition of being “Arab” itself, the way Arabs view themselves and they way they accept “others” as ethnic Arabs is based largely on language. This concept is not new (as is the “official nationality document” definition), it’s actually very old or else the Adnanis would never have been accepted as Arabs.
- So I’m afraid this should follow the a definition stated in the Arab article, one of which states:
- Linguistic: someone whose first language, and by extension cultural expression, is Arabic, including any of its varieties.
- Accordingly, if Tariq Aziz considers himself an Arab since he speaks Arabic as a one of his first languages (he spoke Arabic before he was seven, he continues to do so to date), he lives as an Arab and identifies as one then I, as an Arab, do not contest this. (I’m not claiming to know what Tariq identifies as, I’m just saying IF).
- And if a Copt views himself as an Arab, the same would apply. This becomes especially viable in regions where people are so intermixed for such a long time and already have had similar features to start with that there really isn’t any proof of biological descent at all.
- What you are trying to do here is to enforce scientific proof where there is none and deny people of their own identities because you do not agree with them. --Maha Odeh 05:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, most Americans and Australians etc. are Indo-Europeans of English, German and French descent. As for Arabs, speaking an Arabic language, does not make you an Arab. Tariq Aziz is an Assyrian. The problem with this article, is that it wants to — regardless of how inaccurate it is — to list all ethnic Christian groups in the Middle East as Arabs, regardless of their ethnic background, simply because they live in the Middle East, and Arabic is the lingua franca of the Middle East. This is pure Arabization and nothing else. Why should ethnic Armenians and Assyrians in Syria, be counted as "Christian Arabs" in this article, simply because they live in an Arabic speaking country? And if a Copt views himself as an Arab, the same would apply. — If a Japanese views himself as an Arab, does that also apply? Do you have any respect for ethnicity at all? Do you actually have any understanding at all of how ethnicities work? Do you even care about being factual? — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:56 11 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I'll leave "who is an American...etc." to Americans themselves. and IF a Japanese has lived long enough among Arabs, speaks Arabic since he was a child, lives like an Arab and identifies as an Arab then I do not have a problem with acknowledging him as an Arab. Yes, I do have an understanding of how ethnicities work, IF an Arab, with clear and documented Arab decent was born in, say France, identifies as a French, speaks French and lives like a Frenchman then I am not going to force him to be an Arab against his will. Accordingly, it is much less likely that I would enforce that upon a Copt or an Assyrian. I have not spoken to Tariq Aziz but I have spoken to his daughter Zainab whom I went to high school with and (at least at the time) she said she identifies as an Arab; unless she changed her mind at some point in time she is still an Arab to me.
- As for caring about being factual. What is a fact to you? What I'm saying is that if they identify as Arabs and have lived long an Arabic life long enough then they are accepted as Arabs, if not then they are accepted as they identify. A person's identity has much less to do with genealogy or biology than personal feeling or else we would all either be one ethnicity (all go back to Adam) or we are all monkeys. The fact is, I do know (other than Zainab) many Assyrians from Iraq and Syria that identify as Arabs and can get very upset if someone looked them in the face and said "you are not Arab". Naturally my word will not be taken as an encyclopedic source, but it would definitely be unfair to claim that “all Assyrians are NOT Arabs”.
- Don’t forget that many of the proponents of Arab Nationalism since the 19th century were “biologically” Assyrians, Maronites, Syriac …etc. Examples would be: Tariq Aziz, Amin al-Rihani, Constantin Zureiq, Michel Aflaq and others.
- By the way, ethinicity is NOT ONLY biological, the definition says OR not AND. See Ethnic group for further details. --Maha Odeh 09:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- You obviously have no understanding of the concept of race. No, Assyrians are not Arabs, and whatever you say, it cannot change the fact that we are not Arabs. Ethnicity and biological descent should not be based on personal feelings, but rather on what you actually are. Saying you are Arab when you're actually Copt and/or Assyrian, is like saying you're black when you actually are white. To me, this is quite obvious that you Arabs only want to impose your Arab identity on all Christians in the Middle East who aren't Arabs. It's something you should knock the hell off, because we aren't interested in being Arabs. Copts are Egyptians. They have their own language, culture, and history. Respect them by recognizing their own history as a unique people, completely distinct from Arabs. — EliasAlucard|Talk 01:33 13 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously you are confusing race and ethnicity. Assyrians and Arabs (together with Europeans, Iranians, Indians and others) are all one race. Moreover, both Assyrians and Arabs have the same lineage unless you want to deny Assyrians their Semitic ancestry. Regardless, this argument is leading nowhere and is not fruitful. It is mere stubbornness. I suggest taking a break for a few days and then coming back with more fruitful conversations.--Maha Odeh 05:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, we are of the same Caucasoid race, but all Caucasoids are not of the same subrace. If you think that you as an Arab are of the same race as for instance, someone from Russia, then you still haven't understood this race issue. And yes, ethnicity goes hand in hand with it. Either way, Christians in the Middle East, are rarely Arabs. This may be difficult for you to understand, but you should at the very least respect their own history and non-Arabic culture. Perhaps it's you who needs a break. — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:49 13 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously you are confusing race and ethnicity. Assyrians and Arabs (together with Europeans, Iranians, Indians and others) are all one race. Moreover, both Assyrians and Arabs have the same lineage unless you want to deny Assyrians their Semitic ancestry. Regardless, this argument is leading nowhere and is not fruitful. It is mere stubbornness. I suggest taking a break for a few days and then coming back with more fruitful conversations.--Maha Odeh 05:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- You obviously have no understanding of the concept of race. No, Assyrians are not Arabs, and whatever you say, it cannot change the fact that we are not Arabs. Ethnicity and biological descent should not be based on personal feelings, but rather on what you actually are. Saying you are Arab when you're actually Copt and/or Assyrian, is like saying you're black when you actually are white. To me, this is quite obvious that you Arabs only want to impose your Arab identity on all Christians in the Middle East who aren't Arabs. It's something you should knock the hell off, because we aren't interested in being Arabs. Copts are Egyptians. They have their own language, culture, and history. Respect them by recognizing their own history as a unique people, completely distinct from Arabs. — EliasAlucard|Talk 01:33 13 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, most Americans and Australians etc. are Indo-Europeans of English, German and French descent. As for Arabs, speaking an Arabic language, does not make you an Arab. Tariq Aziz is an Assyrian. The problem with this article, is that it wants to — regardless of how inaccurate it is — to list all ethnic Christian groups in the Middle East as Arabs, regardless of their ethnic background, simply because they live in the Middle East, and Arabic is the lingua franca of the Middle East. This is pure Arabization and nothing else. Why should ethnic Armenians and Assyrians in Syria, be counted as "Christian Arabs" in this article, simply because they live in an Arabic speaking country? And if a Copt views himself as an Arab, the same would apply. — If a Japanese views himself as an Arab, does that also apply? Do you have any respect for ethnicity at all? Do you actually have any understanding at all of how ethnicities work? Do you even care about being factual? — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:56 11 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- What you are trying to do here is to enforce scientific proof where there is none and deny people of their own identities because you do not agree with them. --Maha Odeh 05:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
As a muslim egyptian being partly turkoman, i cannot see why i am less Egyptian than my christian neighboors in Egypt, and i cannot see why i am more arab than them oly by my religion. If it was all about genealogy, then i am not able to proove that my ancestors is Arab rather than native Egyptians, still i identify myself as arab. In the same way, Egyptian copts are not all able to proove that they do not in fact descent from jews, greeks, armenians or other ethnic groups not native to Egypt. Perhaps, you think the case must be rested until we have a genom research for all christian egyptians as opposed to muslim ones? By the way, my family is originally from Aswan, so it is most likely that i am nubian on my fathers side. Hamid-Masri (talk) 12:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Arabic Language was imposed by Arab Christians before Islam
The Ghassanids were the lords of Syria from the 3rd century AD until Islam, The Ghassanids and the Arab tribes allied to them (all from South Arabia Banu Judham, Hamadan and Banu Amilah all spoke Arabic). The muslims effect on Lebanon was minimal compared to Egypt and North Africa. The pre-Islamic population is still the majority in Lebanon. The Sunni Muslims and the Kaysi druze are the main post-Islamic Arab settlers and the long wars of the 19th century was still fought between the Pre_Islamic Arabs and Post-Islamic Arabs, regardless of religion! (well until the Druze changed the rules!). If you don't know about a subject, you shouldn't edit! --Skatewalk 18:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your history lesson. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:59 15 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
User:Skatewalk is no longer with us, maybe it's temporary, but how about jabal Amel. Lebanon is constructed of Mount Lebanon (Jabal Lubnan), Bekaa valley, Akkaa (North), and the now largely Shiite South (Jabal Amal). The illustrious Shiites of that region credit themselves of converting Iran to the Shia faithGodspeed John Glenn! Will 21:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Christian Arabs are ethnic Arabs
Elias, we talked on the email already, Levantine Christian Arabs are the founders of modern Arabism! Michel Aflec, Nawaf Hawatama, George Habash, Constantin Zureiq, Antun Maqdisi....etc We are Arabs, noble Arabs, Arab leaders. We were that way and it will always be the same. We will not convert to Islam or change our identity. Read about Jibla Ibn Al-Aiham before you even question how Arab we are! Read about the Ghassanids, Hamadanis, Banu Judham--Skatewalk 18:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Bottom line is, you can't cite from Misplaced Pages articles because that's not WP:RS. I won't remove your refs if they are actual statistics. Cite from government statistics, here's an example. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:59 15 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
Please read my contribution on the christian families in Lebanon with Misplaced Pages by logging on "Lebanon". I agree with you that Arabism is primarily Christian in Lebanon. Christians in Lebanon all came from Arabia, whether from Yemen or from the Gulf or even from the heart in Nejd. But that does not mean they are new-comers, on the contrary, this means that Arabia in the far past was a land of one language, the first language of Sam. The proof is the huge record of names of townships and regions in the actual Lubnan. I propose the timing of these migrations as being the same as the rise of the Israelites in Arabia whatever their dating is, but in any case, these migrations have happened over a long period of time stretching from the mid-second millenium BC to the first few centuries AD. Please read my contribution about Byblos and about Ahiram with Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, it aches my heart to find the Christians of Lubnan the most fervent anti-arabs distancing themselves from Arabia and Arabs while they should be claiming their godly property of the language with rights and ownership. The westernization of their hearts will not do them any good because one of these days they will be the leaders of the Arab nation again if they turn their faces eastward. Respectfully, Noureddine (talk) 17:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Christianity in Syria
I have added a source to back up the claim according to 2000 estimations:
- The source cites that 404034 of Christians of Syria are Armenians.
- 228177 are Syriacs (سريان) (Orthodox and Catholic Syriacs).
- 35280 Nestorians (Assyrians).
- 17169 are Chaldeans.
- The rest who are 842337 are Arabs (The vast majority of them are of Greek Orthodoxy then followed by Greek Catholicism and Protestantism).
- The total population of Syrian Christians is 1526997 (around 1 million and 500 thousands). Thanks--Aziz1005 15:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot for the source. One question though, being Greek Orthodox/Catholic, doesn't that mean they're actually Greeks who now speak Arabic? — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:52 06 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
- Yea, but they consider themselves Arabs. Chaldean 06:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- Does that even matter? If I move to Japan and consider myself Japanese, does that mean I'm Japanese all of a sudden? Come on, you know that's not possible. — EliasAlucard|Talk 11:05 06 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
- Yea, but they consider themselves Arabs. Chaldean 06:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot for the source. One question though, being Greek Orthodox/Catholic, doesn't that mean they're actually Greeks who now speak Arabic? — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:52 06 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
- In fact, Ghassanides, Bani Kilab and many ethnic Arab tribes who inhibited Syria before the expansion of Islam followed Greek Orthodoxy; I think that was because they adopted Christianity during the Greco-Roman era. In modern days many Syrian and Lebanese families claim to be desendenats of the Ghassanids (Refer to Tarikh Al Usar Alsharqiyya and Dawani Alqotof fe tarikh Bani Almalouf,Issa Iskadar Malouf,تاريخ الأسر الشرقية , دواني القطوف في تاريخ بني المعلوف).
- Believe or not, some Bedouin tribes in Jordan and Palestine are followers of Greek orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism. Michel Aflak him self was a follower of Greek Orthodoxy. This is a website of a Jordanian Orthodox Society that shows you clearly how the followers of Greek Orthodoxy in the Levant denied the Greek identity and prefer to be identified as Arab Orthodox instead, due to linguistic and genealogical reasons .
- Chaldean can confirm what I said since he can read and understand Arabic :) --Aziz1005 02:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh I see. If it's just Greek Orthodoxy in the sense that anyone can be Roman Catholic, well that's a different issue. — EliasAlucard|Talk 06:37 07 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
B-Class
How can this be assessed a B-Class and be tagged with {{Cleanup}}? Are the issues taken care of? What is the deal?--BirgitteSB 19:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose it's trolling or something. This article is far from B class. To begin with, it lists non-Arab groups as Arab Christians. It lacks lots of references, and so on. — EliasAlucard|Talk 01:18 01 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
Flagrant OR
This article was supposed to talk about the term "Arab Christian" as it is used in the real world. Instead, it has become a collaborative OR project aimed at presenting how a handful of persistent POV pushers think it should be used. Thus, we have the number of Arab Christians magically reduced to 1 million! This article shows Misplaced Pages at its worst, and it baffles me how anyone would think this article deserves a "B" rating in this sorry state. -- Slacker (talk) 09:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- Magically reduced? You mean, as opposed to 30 million Arab Christians as it used to be when it use to suffer from POV pushers? Look, every Christian who lives in the Middle East, is not an Arab. This article has been trying to include Assyrians and Copts (Egyptians) just because they live in countries where Arabic is the lingua franca. Look, perhaps you don't know this, but the Middle East is not a racially homogeneous region. It has many different ethnicities. If you think speaking Arabic makes you an Arab, you seriously need a course in anthropology. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 18:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Christianity in the Middle East
Wouldn't it be a good idea to rename this article "Christianity in the Middle East", and then let it cover all the different sects of the wider Middle East, also including Copts, Syriacs, and other non-Arab Christians, so the article doesn't end up as confusing as it is? The problem now is that it focuses on "Arab Christians", but many Arab speaking Christians don't identify as Arabs, so this article suffers from this due to the resulting edits. Or maybe an entirely new article should be created? Anyone agree? Funkynusayri (talk) 09:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I just created the article "Religion in the Middle East, feel free to expand. Funkynusayri (talk) 10:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I think you have a good point. Christianity in the Middle East would make a good article. But if such an article is created, it should not be written from an Arab nationalist POV (as this article has suffered from). It should be a neutral article that reflects all Christian sects in the Middle East, without making a big deal of the ethnicity thing. And this article needs to be stripped down to include only Arab Christians (like for instance, the 5,000 in Iraq). — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 18:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly, I think if an article like "Christianity in the Middle east" is created, it'll be much easier to keep out mentioning of non-Arab Christians from this here article for example, as it can simply be dumped there. Also, It would be very nice with a place where all the different Middle Eastern sects of Christianity could be orderly mentioned, as they're so numerous it can get confusing. It's amazing how many Christian sects there are in the Middle East, compared to how few Christians there are actually there all in all. Funkynusayri (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've created a tiny stub we can work from: Christianity in the Middle East. I'm not very familiar with the Arab Christian groups, so someone else will have to expand on that. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see how either of the new articles, however useful they may be in their own right, will solve the underlying problem here, which is: Does the term "Arab Christian" encompass all Arabic-speaking Christians, or only those who consider themselves to be ethnically Arabs? —Angr 19:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- If you ask me, I think this article should deal with those who are Christians and of an Arab descent/race. I'm sure there are some racially Arab Christians too. Speaking an Arabic language and being a Christian is not enough. If that's the case then I would be an Arab Christian (I speak Lebanese). — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- But then what criteria are used to decide who counts as being "of Arab descent/race" if not language? Are Lebanese Christians really ethnically distinct from Lebanese Muslims? Can you tell from looking at a Lebanese person whether they're of Christian or Muslim heritage? —Angr 19:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Lebanese people are actually just Arabized. They are not Arabs. The Lebanese Muslims, it's arguable if they are of Arab descent (probably more so than the Christians), but many Lebanese Muslims were former Maronites. The Lebanese people are Suryoye (Syriacs). But since the Christians in Lebanon are trying to resist more Arabisation, they have now created this ridiculous Phoenician identity (see Phoenicianism). So no, generally speaking, Lebanese Christians are not Arabs. Genetically speaking, they are also distinct from the Arabs in the Arabian peninsula. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Can you tell from looking at a Lebanese person whether they're of Christian or Muslim heritage? — That can be quite difficult, but I can definitely tell the difference between Lebanese people and real Arabs from the Arabian peninsula. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Lebanese people are actually just Arabized. They are not Arabs. The Lebanese Muslims, it's arguable if they are of Arab descent (probably more so than the Christians), but many Lebanese Muslims were former Maronites. The Lebanese people are Suryoye (Syriacs). But since the Christians in Lebanon are trying to resist more Arabisation, they have now created this ridiculous Phoenician identity (see Phoenicianism). So no, generally speaking, Lebanese Christians are not Arabs. Genetically speaking, they are also distinct from the Arabs in the Arabian peninsula. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- But then what criteria are used to decide who counts as being "of Arab descent/race" if not language? Are Lebanese Christians really ethnically distinct from Lebanese Muslims? Can you tell from looking at a Lebanese person whether they're of Christian or Muslim heritage? —Angr 19:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- If you ask me, I think this article should deal with those who are Christians and of an Arab descent/race. I'm sure there are some racially Arab Christians too. Speaking an Arabic language and being a Christian is not enough. If that's the case then I would be an Arab Christian (I speak Lebanese). — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see how either of the new articles, however useful they may be in their own right, will solve the underlying problem here, which is: Does the term "Arab Christian" encompass all Arabic-speaking Christians, or only those who consider themselves to be ethnically Arabs? —Angr 19:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've created a tiny stub we can work from: Christianity in the Middle East. I'm not very familiar with the Arab Christian groups, so someone else will have to expand on that. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- The distinction should rather be made between those who identify as ethnic Arabs, and those who do not, however, the majority of the ones who do identify as such do not necessarily have actual South Arabian ancestry. The Middle East is genetically divided into South, "real" ethnic Arabs, and North, "Arabised Arabs", with little to no actual Arabian ancestry. There are also quite pronounced physical differences between the two. Funkynusayri (talk) 20:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, so the point is not that Lebanese Christians aren't Arabs, but rather that Lebanese people aren't Arabs, regardless of their religion? The article Arab says that many but not all Arabized groups do consider themselves Arabs, though. For comparison, I also took a look at English people, where it says that even some people of Black African origin consider themselves English if they were born there and grew up there. (I, on the other hand, don't consider myself English at all even though probably about 70% of my ancestry is from England!) This is why questions of ethnicity irritate me so much, and I prefer to stick to languages. How about moving the page to Arabic-speaking Christians so that Copts, Maronites, etc. can be included here without necessarily implying that they're ethnically Arab? —Angr 20:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, so the point is not that Lebanese Christians aren't Arabs, but rather that Lebanese people aren't Arabs, regardless of their religion? — It's possible that the Lebanese Muslims, do have some more Arabic descent compared with the Christians in Lebanon (you know, leftovers from the Arabic conquest of Lebanon). But in general terms, no, Lebanese people are not Arabs. They used to speak Aramaic before the Muslim conquest. For comparison, I also took a look at English people, where it says that even some people of Black African origin consider themselves English if they were born there and grew up there. — You can only be English if you are of Germanic descent. Afro-Americans cannot be English, no matter what they feel about it. We have to differentiate between race and personal feelings. African Americans speak English, but it is not their native language (whatever it used to be, it's forgotten now). And the same logic goes for Copts (they are native Egyptians, most of them). This is all the result of imperialism, where the conquerors have somehow managed to impose their language on the conquered and to some extent also their ethnic identity. Let's just say it's a controversial topic. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- The thing is, pretty much all Arabing speaking Muslims also identify as Arabs, and also many Arabic speaking Christians do so, and those are thus the ones this article is about. The distinction is really based on self-identification, not any provable genetic links, look at the Lebanese demographics article for examples. Moving this page to Arabic speaking Christians might solve the problem with Copts and Maronites, but not the problem of for example Assyrians being adding to the article, so the Christianity in the Middle East is still a good option, as it could also include Armenians, Kurds, and whatever. Anyhow, I think it's a good idea to move this page to Arabic-speaking Christians, then it can be mentioned in the article that Arabic speakers do not necessarily identify as ethnic Arabs. Funkynusayri (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- If we move this to Arabic speaking Christians, it cannot be an article about an Arabic ethnic group. Also, I think it's good that we focus on the Christianity in the Middle East article, because like you said, we can include Kurds as well. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't mean there are African Americans who identify as English; I mean there are people in England of Afro-Caribbean origin who identify as English. And I suspect there are lots of white-skinned people in England whose families have been there for centuries who would vehemently disagree with your statement that "you can only be English if you are of Germanic descent" -- such as the descendants of the French-speaking Normans, not to mention the descendants of the Celts who were there before the Anglo-Saxons. (But those three ethnicities are so thoroughly mixed in England nowadays there probably isn't anyone who isn't part-Anglo-Saxon, part-French, and part-Celtic at least.) I think Arabic-speaking Christians and Christianity in the Middle East should really be two separate articles: the former would include Arabic-speaking Christians outside the Middle East (the diaspora in the Americas and Australia, for example), and the latter would include Christians in the Middle East who are not Arabic-speaking and not Arabized (like Armenians and Georgians). The Maltese would still be a question though: should they be included among Arabic-speaking Christians? From a purely grammatical point of view, Maltese is basically a dialect of Arabic, but there are good sociolinguistic reasons to consider it a totally separate language (different writing system, no diglossia with Standard Arabic, large amounts of Italian loanwords, etc.). —Angr 20:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- It's true that English people (or Britons) are a mixture of Anglo-Saxon (i.e., Germanic), Celtic and some French (i.e., Latin) peoples. But as I see it, the Celts are mostly the Irish/Scots, and the English are mostly Anglo-Saxons. The Normans were also Germanic, so there's no real difference between Anglo-Saxons. But Afro-Americans are not English. They may have assimilated somewhat into the English culture, but that's a different issue. Anyway, that's off topic. About Maltese, from what I hear, they hate Arabs (mostly because of the Crusades/early Jihad). But it's arguable if they are Arabs. Their language seems to be anyway. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't mean there are African Americans who identify as English; I mean there are people in England of Afro-Caribbean origin who identify as English. And I suspect there are lots of white-skinned people in England whose families have been there for centuries who would vehemently disagree with your statement that "you can only be English if you are of Germanic descent" -- such as the descendants of the French-speaking Normans, not to mention the descendants of the Celts who were there before the Anglo-Saxons. (But those three ethnicities are so thoroughly mixed in England nowadays there probably isn't anyone who isn't part-Anglo-Saxon, part-French, and part-Celtic at least.) I think Arabic-speaking Christians and Christianity in the Middle East should really be two separate articles: the former would include Arabic-speaking Christians outside the Middle East (the diaspora in the Americas and Australia, for example), and the latter would include Christians in the Middle East who are not Arabic-speaking and not Arabized (like Armenians and Georgians). The Maltese would still be a question though: should they be included among Arabic-speaking Christians? From a purely grammatical point of view, Maltese is basically a dialect of Arabic, but there are good sociolinguistic reasons to consider it a totally separate language (different writing system, no diglossia with Standard Arabic, large amounts of Italian loanwords, etc.). —Angr 20:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- If we move this to Arabic speaking Christians, it cannot be an article about an Arabic ethnic group. Also, I think it's good that we focus on the Christianity in the Middle East article, because like you said, we can include Kurds as well. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, what do you two think, should we restructure this article so it doesn't focus on ethnicity? Malta should at least be mentioned I think. Funkynusayri (talk) 20:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Let's discuss that in the article's talk page: Talk:Christianity in the Middle East. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 20:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Should we request that this article be moved to Arabic-speaking Christians by an admin? Funkynusayri (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I am an admin. If there's consensus, I can do it. Can it wait till tomorrow? I'm going to bed now. (Yawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn) —Angr 21:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Awright, hehe... Funkynusayri (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- Do we really need to move it to Arab speaking christians? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 03:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, we don't, unless we want to eliminate the inevitable and endless "who is an Arab" discussions the current name creates. Funkynusayri (talk) 03:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Oh okay. But an NPOV title like that would mean that we will have to write the article not from an ethnic point of view (i.e., Christians who speak Arabic). I think that could work out, since 'Arab Christians' really aren't that ethnically bound together anyway. I mean, how much in common does a Christian Arab from Syria have with a Christian Arab from Tunisia in terms of ethnicity, apart from the language? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 05:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- By the way, speaking of the 'who is an Arab' discussion, I think we could need a Who is an Arab article just like we have a Who is a Jew article. What say you? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 05:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Oh okay. But an NPOV title like that would mean that we will have to write the article not from an ethnic point of view (i.e., Christians who speak Arabic). I think that could work out, since 'Arab Christians' really aren't that ethnically bound together anyway. I mean, how much in common does a Christian Arab from Syria have with a Christian Arab from Tunisia in terms of ethnicity, apart from the language? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 05:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- There is already a sort of "Who is an Arab article", called Etymology of the word Arab, I'm not sure how good it is though... And yeah, I don't think it makes much sense to talk of Christian Arabs from an ethnic view point, as the only ones everyone today can agree are true ethnic Arabs are the ones from Saudi Arabia and such, and they're hardly ever Christian. But there are of course historical South Arabian Christians which are already dealt with in this article I think. Funkynusayri (talk) 09:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- By the way funky, you don't need to rearrange the redirects; the Bots do it automatically after a few days. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
update
Since a new title has been given to this article, I think the figures must also be updated to reflect the actual figures of Arabic-speaking Christians--Aziz1005 (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yup, but where does it make a difference, apart from in relation to Copts and Maronites? Funkynusayri (talk) 23:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- Iraqi christians such as Chaldeans who are mainly Arabic-speaking christians. Also Syrian christians (Syrian citizens) other than ethnic Arab christians in Syria, since the figure provided here which is around 800 thousands is only for ethnic Arab christians in Syria and that excludes (Syriac Orthodox,Assyrians,Chaldeans and Armenians)--Aziz1005 (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- But their primary language isn't Arabic (even though many understand Arabic). — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
- Iraqi christians such as Chaldeans who are mainly Arabic-speaking christians. Also Syrian christians (Syrian citizens) other than ethnic Arab christians in Syria, since the figure provided here which is around 800 thousands is only for ethnic Arab christians in Syria and that excludes (Syriac Orthodox,Assyrians,Chaldeans and Armenians)--Aziz1005 (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- In the case of Syriac Orthodox and Syriac catholics the majorty in both Syria and Iraq have Arabic as the vernacular language. Chaldeans who are the majrity of Iraqi christians also speak Arabic as a mother tounge.I agree with you in the case of Assyrians, Armenians, and perhaps local people of certain towns and villages in Syria and Iraq where Aramaic is still used in daily life.
- since a mother tounge is a language that you learn at home from your parents not school 'usually during childhood', then I think we must include these figures. remember we are talking here about speakers not ethnic Arabs--Aziz1005 (talk) 15:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- remember we are talking here about speakers not ethnic Arabs — Sure, you can add it into the article as long as you don't make it seem like Chaldeans, Syriacs and others are an Arabic ethnic group. By the way, there is Chaldean Neo-Aramaic and Turoyo. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 23:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I think we should only mention Syriac and other groups if we know for sure whether they speak Arabic as their mother tongue or not, if we don't have sources and percentages, it could simply just be briefly mentioned that some Syriacs speak Arabic as their mother tongue, for whatever reason. This is Funkynusayri, by the way. 83.72.194.208 (talk) 05:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- Ok I'll try to search for a reliable sources then update the article, please feel free to update it at any time :)--Aziz1005 (talk) 10:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- It should be noted that far from all Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans speak Arabic. Especially those who live in Turkey, Iran etc. do not understand Arabic. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- Of course, only Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans in Iraq and Syria are going to be mentioned who I think make at least 75% of the Chaldo-Assyrian community in the Middle East --Aziz1005 (talk) 18:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- It should be noted that far from all Assyrians/Syriacs/Chaldeans speak Arabic. Especially those who live in Turkey, Iran etc. do not understand Arabic. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- Ok I'll try to search for a reliable sources then update the article, please feel free to update it at any time :)--Aziz1005 (talk) 10:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
i think the term "arabic-speaking christians" shouldnt be used, its misleading, especially to ignorant foreigners, we should be called arab christians since we are 100% arab and did not convert or be oppressed for that matter,believed by many.and the translation in arabic following "arabic-speaking christians" means christian arabs..you should have the title changed to christian arabs, who agrees? malta should be removed,most are of british origin and speak maltese, which descended from arabic, its not arabic.this article should be about christian arabs..nobody really cares about any christian out there who "happens" to speak arabic!
- Yes, because Maronites and Copts are often referred to as Arabs because they speak Arabic, so making this article a bit more inclusive answers a lot of questions for the average reader. Funkynusayri (talk) 11:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
look, i do not care about arabs out there who dont "admitt" being arab, even if your ancestors werent arab and you were "arabized", you are still currently an arab. i have italian ancestry, which dates back almost 2000 years ago, i do not go out telling people im italian!, im an arab whose also a christian. there is such thing as a christian arab!, we ARE NOT christians in the middle east who "HAPPEN" to speak arabic, we ARE arabs! and please can someone who still has his/her 5 senses agree with me about the whole malta thing, as i mentioned earlier??we do not need research over this, common sense can solve the problem, maltese are not arabs, their language descends from our language, thats all.
Iraqi Christians
The figure of 5000 in the article is complete rubbish. There are 800,000 Iraqi Christians...not all of us know how to speak Chaldean/Assyrian.....Arabic is our mother tongue and even most of those who speak Chaldean as their first language can speak Arabic as well. The Armenians in Iraq as well can all speak Arabic as well as Armenian.
No offence to whoever listed the source for that figure, but it seems like an unreliable website. It's main concern just seems to be Evangelicism in Iraq and how to spread it, and clearly hasn't spent much time researching their facts and figures.
Look at this extract from the website:
The Yezidi are a syncretistic offshoot of both Zoroastrianism and Islam. They speak Kurdish and are known as 'devil' worshippers. There are very few believers.
The Yazidis are not devil worshippers, they could have explained their true beliefs and explained that they do not worship the devil at all.
See, this website is misinformed.
Surely someone could have found a more reliable source.
--Babychimp16 (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- This article is about ethnic Arabs (despite its title.) The 800,000 Iraqi Christians are not Arabs, even thou they know Arabic. Chaldean (talk) 04:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'm a Chaldean Catholic/Syriac Orthodox Assyrian. I speak Lebanese Arabic. I do not consider myself an Arab in any way, because I'm not Arab. I'm Assyrian. Followers of Syriac Christianity are not ethnically Arabs, even though it's popular to claim so amongst Arab nationalists. And Iraqi Christian does not mean Arab by default. Most Christians in Iraq, are indigenous Assyrians. — EliasAlucard (Discussion · contribs) 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Oh and, it should be added to that, it's not about the language you are capable of speaking, it's about your race. There are lots of ethnic Swedes in America, for instance, who don't know Swedish; they are still Swedes by heritage (just a parallel). — EliasAlucard (Discussion · contribs) 09:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'm a Chaldean Catholic/Syriac Orthodox Assyrian. I speak Lebanese Arabic. I do not consider myself an Arab in any way, because I'm not Arab. I'm Assyrian. Followers of Syriac Christianity are not ethnically Arabs, even though it's popular to claim so amongst Arab nationalists. And Iraqi Christian does not mean Arab by default. Most Christians in Iraq, are indigenous Assyrians. — EliasAlucard (Discussion · contribs) 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am an Iraqi Christian and I do consider myself an Arab. That's not the point though. The title of this article is misleading. You want to call it Arabic-Speaking Christians and then you ignore all the Christians that can speak Arabic because they are not technically Arabs.
Either correct the figures, or change the title of the article. --Babychimp16 (talk) 12:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- What church do you belong to? Chaldean (talk) 14:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I am Catholic --Babychimp16 (talk) 19:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
- Chaldean Catholic or Syriac Catholic or what? Chaldean (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
My mother is Syriac Catholic and my father is Chaldean Catholic. There are no Arabic churches where I live so my family go to a Roman Catholic church but sometimes we get Arab priests from London to come down to our area to hold an Arabic mass, one is Chaldean Catholic, the other is Syriac Catholic, and the other is Orthodox. --Babychimp16 (talk) 18:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Stats
Check this, provided to me by Skatewalk, who was banned for some reason: Funkynusayri (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Categories:- Redirect-Class Christianity pages
- NA-importance Christianity pages
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- Redirect-Class Arab world pages
- NA-importance Arab world pages
- WikiProject Arab world articles
- Redirect-Class Palestine-related pages
- High-importance Palestine-related articles
- WikiProject Palestine articles
- NA-Class Ethnic groups pages
- High-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles