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Revision as of 06:52, 13 August 2005

Was Charlotte, North Carolina also nameed after her? Michael Hardy 00:02, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes. It's even the county seat of Mecklenburg County, North Carolina. RickK 00:06, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What does "in the 15th century through six lines" mean? RickK 02:39, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Racial stuff

The whole "Queen Charlotte was black" thing is total garbage. Look at Queen Charlotte's great-great-great-great-great grandparents: ):

They are, without exception, German, Danish, Swedish, Polish, or Dutch. There is no obvious connection from that list of even how she would be related to the Portuguese royal family. Any descendancy she would have from this supposed possibly black woman would have to be shared with the entirety of Europe's royals. john k 23:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is precisely the kind of thing historians would love to cover up. I guess it's just unphantomable that the British monarchy has African ancestry, isn't it. Look at the PBS site in the link provided in the article and plenty others. --Kvasir 03:46, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. I suppose it's possible that she was the illegitimate love child of the Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and a black man. Or something. But, so far as I am aware, there is no evidence to support this. In her acknowledged ancestry, there is no obvious African connection that she would not share with just about every other European royalty. It's perfectly possible that all European royalty has a slight amount of black ancestry. But there is no particular evidence that this comes from Charlotte, save her alleged "mulatto" features. john k 05:21, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is actually quite certain that all European royalty has a slight amount of black ancestry. The studies on Most Recent Common Ancestor show that everyone has some ancestry in all parts of the planet. No need to cover up. Royals are as black as all the others. 217.140.193.123 09:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The frontline commentary, BTW, is utterly unconvincing. Charlotte shares her descent from Margarita de Castro y Susa, who may not even have been black, with large numbers of European royalty who did not have black features. Furthermore, I am not convinced that this oft-repeated story is even true. Looking at the very comprehensive pedigree for Charlotte at genealogics, one has to go back a dozen generations just to get to a Portuguese infanta. Looking at that Portuguese infanta's ancestry going back 8 generations, I see no signs of "Margarita de Castro e Sousa." Describing the Sousas as "the black branch of the Portuguese royal family" seems even more dubious. So, if true, this supposed evidence is unconvincing, and it doesn't even seem to be true. john k 05:48, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I've found out more. Margarita de Castro did exist, and Charlotte (along with pretty much all of the rest of the Protestant European nobility, including such noted mulattoes as George III) was descended from her in multiple ways. However, Margarita de Castro herself was not "black." She was distantly descended from an African mistress of the medieval King Alfonso III of Portugal. All of the intervening marriages seem to have been to proper Portuguese. So, yes, Queen Charlotte (and George III) had multiple descents from the African mistress of the 13th century King Alfonso III of Portugal. We don't even know if she was black! To speculate that whatever "African" appearance Queen Charlotte may have had was due to this very distant descent, when most of her ancestors were Germans, is highly dubious. john k 05:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The research did not say she was a love child of the Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and a black man. The reseach says her ancestry came from Portugal and the African connection was shown as early as the 15th century, THREE centuries before her birth. Nevermind the racially motivated "negroid" appearance that had sparekd the researches. There had been independent researches done on this, what more evidence do you need? DNA? Why can't the researches regarding the Queen's ancestory even be mentioned? Obviously there had been reasons significant enough for the academic community to pay attention to the matter. Besides, an African ancestry doesn't mean she's "black". Another article I've found points to Moorish origin.

Personally it means nothing to me whether she is considered black or not, but the fact is, the researches did occurred and they were about the Queen, no doubt about that. I don't see why this can't even be part of the article. The current Queen acknowledged her African ancestory during her own coronation. If she's not afraid to say it, why are you? --Kvasir 06:13, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, the connection to Portugal is in the 15th century. The connection to Africa is through that Portuguese connection, in the 13th century. Most protestant royalty in Europe are descended from this same Portuguese connection, including George III. Why is this information more relevant to Charlotte's article than it is to George III's, or to that of Goethe's patron, Karl August of Saxe-Weimar, who were also descendants of Margarida. The basic issue is that this fact is of no particular relevance to Charlotte's article. The only reason it is mentioned is because there have been claims that Charlotte is "black." And this descendancy was dug up to prove it. But the fact that Charlotte can claim three descents from Margarida (not six, as the article claims), is pointless. According to a thread on alt.talk.royalty on the subject, she can claim about a hundred descents from Margarida's near contemporary, Christian I of Denmark. Why is any of this relevant? If you want to create an article on Margarida de Castro, and the fact that through her a great percentage of northern European royalty derive an African descent, that's fine. But it's utterly irrelevant to Charlotte's article, just as it would be irrelevant to George III's and to Karl August of Weimar's. john k 22:28, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, NOBODY IS SAYING SHE WAS BLACK. Read that carefully again, okay? NOBODY ... IS ... SAYING ... QUEEN ... CHARLOTTE ... WAS ... BLACK. You don't have the information in front of you, all the scholar's research, just parts of it online, so why are you so inclined to dismiss it out of hand? However ... A, it is fact that her ancestry has become of interest to scholars of the African diaspora in recent years. B, those studies have been given large play in the media, at least in America. C, her features were commented on during her life. D even one of her leading biographers noted this. Why is this a problem for you? It's just background, deep background. You seem like you're taking this so personally. The paragraph has been written in a very tightly focussed, very careful use of language. Leave it alone. Mowens35 21:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the basis for the research was true, she was the one used to show African connection. Yes, other noble and royal houses of Europe could have the same African ancestry, so what? Would you have a problem dealing with that if it was true? The fact of the matter is, Charlotte was singled out in significant number of works. --Kvasir 02:03, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be mentioned, but we certainly shouldn't report falsely on it. We need to give the context for it. Basically, the fact is this: there's a few vague references, and some pictures, which make Queen Charlotte look like she might have some African blood. This caused people to look into her genealogy. They discovered that, like most of the rest of northern European royalty, she descends from a 15th century Portuguese lady named Margarita de Castro. This Portuguese lady descends in the maternal side from an illegitimate son of the 13th century King of Portugal Affonso III. The mother of this bastard apparently was of African origin. But was probably Arab or Berber - that is, not Subsaharan African. I don't see why this is a significant fact about Charlotte. Why shouldn't we add the same thing to George III, to Karl August of Weimar, to Christian IX of Denmark, and so on and so forth, if it's so notable? Christian IX of Denmark was the black king of Denmark! Goethe's patron, a negro! This is all silliness, and hasn't the slightest significance. If we are to deal with this we should perhaps mention that some people have suggested black blood for Queen Charlotte, but that genealogical research can only show a very slight amount of African blood which may not be black and which she shares with the rest of European royalty - that is to say, genealogical research actually debunks the idea that she was black, rather than strengthening it. john k 02:45, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, her apparent African (note that i've never specified Subsaharan or North African except when quoting other's works) ancestry debunks the infamous One-Drop Theory that had ruled America and European nations for centuries. Whether her ancestors were considered black, mixed or Moorish is unimportant. It is the notion that she and her decendants may have NON-EUROPEAN blood that policy makers and historians alike up in arms over, the POV typical of history written by those in charge, namely Europeans. This is truly the double standard that is at work here. I guess the One-Drop Theory doesn't apply when it comes to royalty who has a very remote non-European ancestry can be easily and should be disregarded; yet it is the perfect basis to segregate visible minority when it comes convenient. If they would apply the One Drop Theory to its strictest sense of the word just like you have, YES we'd have a black King of Demark. And you wouldn't have given this example if you didn't find this notion of a black Danish monarchy ridiculous and unacceptable. History had shown us that if Hitler were to apply his own racial policy to himself, he would be on his way to Auschwitz. The fact that he could impose his policies was that he had the power to. This shows the labels of black and white are totally decided upon by society, not by lineage. The difference between the Portugese/British royal houses and the rest of those in Europe is that the Portuguese and the British had acknowledged an African connection. Portugal used the African lineage to justify colonial expansion into Africa, and QEII claimed, during her coronation, the lineage as her basis for the monarchy to rule over the Commonwealth. Whether this was done solely to justify their means or not is not the point of this discussion. But the fact that they have admitted it makes it all the more official. The rest of them are possibly just hiding in their little closets.

Further more, this whole business of Charlotte's non-European lineage should be mentioned here in this article because it is the very researches dealt into Charlotte's genealogy that formed the basis of the current British royal house's claim of African lineage, as well as contemporary politics such as the abolition of slavery. I don't have a problem about this lineage not mentioned for most other European royal houses because it was, in fact, insignificant with respect to their country's historic context. --Kvasir 07:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. Hitler did not have a Jewish grandfather. That's a myth. I'd add that German/Austrian one-quarter Jews who did not practice their religion were, in fact, not murdered, for the most part. Why should I take someone seriously who repeats that hoary old nonsense? Who believes in the one drop theory at this point, anyway? Every single European monarch today, as a descendant of Queen Victoria, is also descended from Margarida de Castro, and thus from Affonso III's possibly-African mistress. As to whether, say, the Danes have "admitted" their minuscule African ancestry, I have no idea - but the whole discussion is absurd. A study of the genealogy of these people is most remarkable because of how *little* of their ancestry is non-European. These people were incredibly inbred, and very little of their ancestry can be traced to anywhere but Europe. As to "black" and "white" being determined by society rather than lineage, sure. But there are other theories on this than the "one drop" theory. The Portuguese certainly never subscribed to this theory, nor did the Spanish - they had elaborate varieties of racial difference devised. I'm not certain about northern European societies, but I do know that a German with as little Jewish blood as Charlotte had "African" blood would have faced no trouble at all from the Nazis. Finally, again, the fact that Elizabeeth acknowledged African ancestry has little to do with Charlotte - she has the same African ancestry through George III, and through Christian IX of Denmark, and probably from various other sources as well. john k 21:07, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The reason I mentioned One Drop Theory was because of your example of a black Danish King. You wouldn't have mentioned it if you didn't apply the theory in order to arrive to the label "black". Again, I have never said Charlotte was black, nor did I say Hitler was part-Jewish. I used him as an example because Hitler didn't know the identity of his paternal grandfather and as such, under his own racial policies, he could not have established himself as a German. --Kvasir 22:17, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

His paternal grandfather was Johann Hiedler - this was legally recognized. At any rate, the people whose work you are advancing have referred to Charlotte as a "black" queen of England, that is all I was saying. 23:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And who's up in arms over anything? No historians or, god forbid, policy-makers, who, so far as I am aware, have little interest in the ancestry of Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, have disputed the fact that you can trace descents of Charlotte to the possibly-African mistress of Affonso III of Portugal. What is under dispute is whether this fact is of any significance at all, and whether there is any reason to attach this fact to especially to Charlotte, when it could just as easily be attached to George III, or Christian IX of Denmark, or Karl August of Weimar, or whoever. john k 21:09, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll add that this particular line of ancestry was not exposed by original research into Charlotte, so far as I am aware. The genealogy of Europe's royalty has been very extensively researched, and almost certainly this particular line of descent was fully known by genealogists long before anyone became interested in whether or not Charlotte was black. And, once again, if the ancestry is, in fact, non-black North African (as is overwhelmingly likely), this is all the less interesting - North Africans were not normally considered racially distinct from Europeans - certainly not in the Iberian peninsula, which was full of Moors and Jews. All of the southern European royalties almost certainly have some small amount of Jewish/Moorish descent through Ferdinand of Aragon. john k 21:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, NOBODY IS SAYING SHE WAS BLACK. Read that carefully again, okay? NOBODY ... IS ... SAYING ... QUEEN ... CHARLOTTE ... WAS ... BLACK. I actually wrote about this research for the New York Times and spent a lot of time working on its verification from a wide number of scholars, not one of whom was skeptical. You don't have the information in front of you, all the scholar's research, just parts of it online, so why are you so inclined to dismiss it out of hand? However ... A, it is fact that her ancestry has become of interest to scholars of the African diaspora in recent years. B, those studies have been given large play in the media, at least in America. C, her supposedly "negroid" features were commented on during her life. D even one of her leading biographers noted this. Why is this a problem for you? It's just background, deep background. You seem like you're taking this so personally. The paragraph has been written in a very tightly focussed, very careful use of language, leaving the research open to interpretation. Leave it alone. Also, as you will note, your own initial argument of "garbage" re the research has been tempered over the last few days to the point of you're saying that maybe it should be noted. Mowens35 21:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't necessarily have a problem with it being mentioned. I have a problem with it being mentioned in a misleading manner, as, for instance, the Frontline article does. It has probably been mentioned enough as to deserve a place in the article. But there's no reason to treat it as though it is a particularly sensible claim. Margarida de Castro was not "apparently mixed-race," (and she certainly was not a member of "the black branch of the Portuguese royal house" as Frontline says) so far as I am aware - she was a Portuguese noblewoman who had a negligible amount of (apparently Moorish) African blood dating back a couple of centuries. The argument that Charlotte's descent from her has any connection to the claim that she looked "mulatto" is utterly specious - whether or not Charlotte looked mulatto, it is incredibly unlikely that this has anything to do with her very distant descent from a thirteenth century moorish woman, which she shared with numerous people who nobody has every said looked like mulattoes. Were even her brothers, sisters, or parents ever described as looking mulatto? Has anybody even bothered to see? My basic problem with this is that it's always presented as though this (genuine) genealogical descent actually bears some relation to the fact that people said Charlotte looked mulatto. It simply does not - there is absolutely no connection between these two (true) facts, and the main reason that people have juxtaposed these two things is to suggest that the contemporary observations have been proven correct by "scientific" research into Charlotte's genealogy. john k 21:26, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John, it's mentioned, it's mentioned properly in the article, with pros and cons. We can do nothing more. On the subject of Charlotte's siblings, I do not know, but if you're interested, I could scan a circa 1875 photograph of a family distantly connected to me. The husband was mixed race: white, Indian, and black, but looked rather like Abraham Lincoln. His wife was entirely white, pure Blythe Danner in appearance, though more careworn. Their grown sons all look largely black. Two of the daughters do as well, while two other daughters are very white in appearance. All the women married mixed-race men. The two grandchildren pictured -- who are cocktail of Indian, white, and black, in varying complexities -- look like the Sherwin-Williams Dutch boy. They both slipped into white society when grown and successfully so. Whether their own children and grandchildren remained blonde types is unknown. Mowens35 21:37, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I certainly wasn't denying that this kind of thing can happen. i was just noting that nobody seems to say anything one way or the other about her close relatives, and that the whole thing seems to be cherry-picking. It's also rather anglocentric - it's not as though Charlotte came out of a wild area where we know nothing of her other family members, and yet there seems to be no interest in whether she looked like a typical member of the family, or not. At any rate, I have no particular problem with some mention of this. I do think that it's pretty disproportionate at this point. john k 23:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's anglocentric. All we've got to go on are English observers of her. Her siblings, on the other hand, we know nothing about, largely, because they didn't become queens or rulers of one of the most important countries on the planet. And if they were written about, we'd be hardpressed to find to books on a local library shelf to back it up, unless some Wiki's got borrowing privileges at the Mecklenburg County Library in Germany. Or somebody's willing to track down paintings of all her family (go right ahead if you'd like and we can change the article accordingly). As for disproportionate, that is why I moved the block of text to the end of the entry. It broke the rhythm and took up too much space at the beginning of the article. I think it is appropriately placed. Mowens35 23:09, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If someone were serious about researching Charlotte's ancestry, it is certainly not difficult to find out about her family. Obviously, it is not as easy as finding stuff about Charlotte, but one would guess that there are records in Strelitz and elsewhere about the family, and that a diligent researcher could discover quite a lot. Portraits almost certainly exist, as well - her brother was, after all, a major prince of the Holy Roman Empire. This is not an issue with contributors to wiki, but an issue about the seriousness of these people (not on wiki) who are supposedly researching Charlotte's ancestry. I agree that the bit is better placed at the bottom. john k 23:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Royal descent

After a long recent discussion of Charlotte's geneology I realized that no notable ancestor had been listed but a 15th century relative of uncertain connection. A woman of no notable descent marrying into the House of Stuart? I searched for a Royal ancestry of her own and found Gustav Vasa to serve as her closest Royal relative. I added a short paragraph explaining the descent.

The addition has been reverted within a number of hours with the apparent concern that it is "irrelevant"? Along with a curious comment on an "African Queen" that I haven't been able to place. So why is listing the notable lineage of a member of Royalty, a Queen consort and ancestor of several monarchs irrelevant?

And as for listing a similar paragraph prooving descent from Gustav Vasa for all of his descentants. You seem to exaggerate. When attempting to add geneological information to an article , I am merely trying to connect the person to the closest ancestor which has his/her own article in the Misplaced Pages. Further descent can thus be traced by reading on said ancestor. I don't think this to so "irrelevant" or an attempt to turn Misplaced Pages to a geneological archive listing people with nothing to comment them but their descent.

The only other way to list such information would be to create articles on her parents. Who I doubt would ever grow beyond stub status even if created. Any other ideas on how to inform on geneology other than singling out a 13th century concumbine instead of her relatively close connections. User:Dimadick

Dimadick, I removed the Vasa descent because it was patently bizarre. I suggest that you instead do some research and beef up the info re her parents and why she was chosen to be G3's bride (they were cousins after all, so the choice is not THAT surprising). That's much more interesting and relevant that the Vasa descent, which I'm certain isn't why she was asked to marry the man she did. Mowens35 23:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dimadick, do you mean House of Stuart, or rather House of Hanover?? conventionally we do not say that G3 belonged to house of Stuart, though he descended from it. 217.140.193.123 07:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And, please do not see the ancestry so purely black or white. Charlotte certainly had lots of notable ancestors, close. such as reigning princes of principalities, duchies etc. It was only the lack of any king as close ancestor that makes her relatively non-royal. She certainly was not the close descendant of any commoner, nor of any "lower noble". 217.140.193.123 07:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi,

The article goes on about Charlotte's relatively non-royal ancestory, and says that she was more of the aristocracy than of royalty. This is not strictly correct, because although her father and his forbears held the title of "Duke" of Mecklienburg-Strelitz, they were RULING dukes, not dukes of the peerage as in the UK. They were thus royalty and not merely of the nobility. The dukes of Mecklienburg-Strelitz were of course nominally under the suzereinty of the Holy Roman Emperor until 1806, but then so was every other German royal, including the Elector of Hanover, who incidentally was Charlotte's husband.

Every consort of a British monarch between George I (1714-27) and Victoria (1837-1901) came from a similar family, and the record in the 1900's has been downhill from there. Queen Mary plumbed the depths; her father was the product of a morganatic marriage.