Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:25, 12 March 2008

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Hello, Mrund, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Sources?

Hi. Which sources did you use for your recent additions to the history section in Sweden? Would you mind inserting a reference? I'd be happy to help you with the formatting, if you are unfamiliar with it. Thanks, henrik•talk 23:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a very good question, and one that I have trouble answering. You see, I'm a full-time research scholar in Swedish archaeology, and I'm writing the whole thing from the top of my head. It's my stock in trade. If there is any one point that you find controversial, then maybe I can dig up a reference.

I hope you will believe me when I say that the 2000 book about Sweden before 1520 that was used to reference the sections I've replaced is very badly out of date, indeed was out of date already when published. The author's name is entirely unknown in Swedish prehistoric archaeology.

Martin Rundkvist (talk) 11:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hehe, I suspected something like that. But perhaps there are some reference works you could add? Not every sentence need detailed sourcing. Pointing a paragraph to a relevant chapter in a book is enough. An important, if secondary, role of an encyclopedia is to point interested readers towards more detailed (and perhaps more reliable) sources. That's why it is useful to source even non-controversial material.

The main article, Prehistoric Sweden could also use some loving, if you're up to it. :-) henrik•talk 14:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I could add a section for "Further reading" at the end. That's what I'd do if I were writing for a print encyclopedia.

Prehistoric Sweden presents a little problem. It redirects to an article titled Scandinavian prehistory, which is a heavily error-ridden article about Swedish matters that someone has made slight attempts to expand into a pan-Scandy version. I'd prefer to re-name it back to Prehistoric Sweden and then go to work on it. Whatcha say? Martin Rundkvist (talk) 15:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a bit different than print encyclopedias in that we do not (generally) have expert writers like yourself. People trust traditional encyclopedias because they are expected to select trustworthy editors - Misplaced Pages allows experts and non-experts alike, so the text must be able to stand on its own without the implied authority of the writer. This is why we request more specific sourcing than a print encyclopedia.

I'm afraid the coverage of Scandinavian and Swedish history on wikipedia is very spotty. A few more modern and narrow topics are fairly good, but the overview articles are a mess, so it's great to see someone with real knowledge here. As for the prehistory, please - Go ahead! henrik•talk 10:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edit to Sweden

Hi there. I noticed your recent edit to Sweden. . Since you removed sourced statements with unsourced statements, could you please use the talk page of the article to explain? Thank you. --mceder (u t c) 09:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply to your comment on Talk:Sweden

Yes of course you can improve the separate article on Prehistoric Sweden. However, even if you don't feel the need to add citations, please remember that this is a Misplaced Pages, and anyone can add or remove things you have written. If you reference everything, it will be easier to keep the article in a good state, to improve on it, and to check the facts. But if you want write, just write... / Fred-J 15:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Prehistoric Sweden

Hi again. Perhaps you could just start to write a new article? I have blanked Prehistoric Sweden for you, so you can start writing it there if you want to. / Fred-J 20:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, I'll do that. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 11:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing at Falun Gong. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. TigerShark (talk) 23:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Reprimand accepted. I didn't know about that rule. The three Falun Gong devotees I was edit warring with took turns undoing my edits. This gives them nine legitimate undo chances per 24 hours. I could of course recruit friends to do the same, but I'd really rather not. My suggested brief addition to the Falun Gong article is intended as to be constructive, not vandalism. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 06:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You have shown your unwillingness to engage in discussion on the talk page, as well as resorting to ad-hominem attacks, as you have just repeated here ("Falun Gong devotees"). You have been continually asked to seek consensus on your edit and make sure they are compatible with the cited wikipedia policies. There is a whole section in wikipedia policies on self-published sources which demonstrates that Randi doesn't qualify as a reliable source for commenting on Falun Gong--he can write what he wants on his site. There's another whole section about how minority claims should be handled quite carefully--his views are firmly in the minority. Because you can put a reference tag on it doesn't mean you can insert it as you wish. Misplaced Pages should be edited by consensus. I sought compromise on this edit but you have forged ahead with the edit warring, and yourself said that you intend to be stubborn about it. I'm not sure how you expect others to respond to this kind of thing. It doesn't leave others much option when you refuse to engage in discussion. There are clear points related to policies which have been brought up which are outstanding. You have left brief notes in response, questioning the intentions of other editors, rather than responding to the arguments. You have reverted twice as many times as you should have, there is still no consensus, there are still outstanding policy issues. If you accept being reprimanded, does that mean you are willing to engage in discussion about your editing, so we can do things in accordance with wikipedia policies?--Asdfg12345 06:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I have repeatedly invited everybody to comment on and improve my suggested critical additions. Only once has someone half-accepted the invitation by stripping out the criticism from my addition and padding the remainder with praise. I have not touched any existing pro-FG or anti-Chinese-government material in the article. I am convinced that your intentions in this case, Asdfg, are not the ones you advance in public. You are clearly attempting to hide your pro-FG agenda behind a smoke screen of misapplied Misplaced Pages formalism. Your unwillingness to accept James Randi as a relevant commentator on the issue is a blatant example of this. I, on the other hand, write under my true name with a clearly stated skeptical agenda that is not confined to issues about FG. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 09:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI, you cannot use Misplaced Pages to promote or endorse a "skeptical" agenda, or any other ideological point of view. See Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. User:Tomananda and User:Samuel Luo were permanently banned from Misplaced Pages, because the arbitration committee found that Tomananda "has engaged in edit-warring and attempts to use Misplaced Pages for ideological struggle and advocacy", and Samuel Luo "has engaged in edit-warring to promote a viewpoint consistent with his outside activism". If your sources don't qualify, if you attempt to give undue weight to viewpoints that have been largely debunked by the relevant academic community, and if you insist on argumenta ad populum and biased personal viewpoints ("The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is usually soon accused of supporting the Chinese government"), you are directly violating certain non-negotiable policies, and of course we are concerned and will stop you from doing that. You have never even tried to back up your edits by referring to the policies, and you have categorically ignored our analyses on your misdemeanours. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 10:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, Olaf, and you have no agenda here? For Dawkins' sake, man, on your user description page you say "my chief interests and contributions are related to the horrendous persecution of Falun Gong practitioners"! You're really too much. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 10:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You neglect a crucial difference here. I am operating within the boundaries of Misplaced Pages-qualified sources and clearly explicated policies and guidelines. I do not approve of edits just because they're pro-FLG, and I don't disapprove of edits just because they're anti-FLG. As long as the material is verifiable and originates from a reliable source (not what I think is reliable, but what is reliable from the perspective of Misplaced Pages), I am absolutely in favour of consensus-seeking, balanced approach. You, on the other hand, have blatantly neglected the criticism that has been presented against your edits, even though we have made numerous references to appropriate policies. What you ought to do in that situation is to find "legal" means to defend your edits, but you have not done that. Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy.

James Randi is a partisan skeptic, not an expert of Falun Gong. He can write whatever he wants on his website, and his devotees will probably share his point of view without any further fact-checking. Have a look at Misplaced Pages:Attribution#Using_questionable_or_self-published_sources (emphasis not mine): "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by reliable, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, a reliable source will probably have covered it; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to independent fact-checking." James Randi's POV is a fringe view in the academic community. Serious Falun Gong researchers, such as David Ownby (sinologist, historian of Chinese popular religion & Chinese millenarianism at the University of Montreal), have completely debunked the claims of such people. They represent the academic mainstream, and their writings are actually based on something concrete, not personal biases and airy-fairy opinions. If you find significant publications, preferably peer-reviewed journals, criticizing Falun Gong - that's fine, and we can move on to evaluating their place and weight in the article. But now you appear out of the blue, pushing unacademic personal blogs, and even trying to make room for their stuff in the introduction of an article that has been under close scrutiny and serious debate for years. In the light of all this, how do you expect to come across as a reasonable, rational person? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 12:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)