Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:47, 30 July 2005

I believe it should be renamed "Wz.35 anti-tank rifle". Pibwl 14:54, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If we translate the name, then we should translate all of it (Anti-tank rifle Mark 35), not only part of it. Halibutt 00:23, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I believe that this article should be moved back to the original name.

Voting

It was suggested that this article should be renamed Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35. The vote is shown below:

• Rename Anti-tank rifle Mark 35 or Anti-tank rifle Model 1935, or something similar. Between the other alternatives which have been presented, I'd prefer "Anti-tank rifle wz.35" to "Wz.35 anti-tank rifle". I think whatever it is should be 1935 rather than 35. Gene Nygaard 21:42, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC). Changing my vote to Keep Anti-tank rifle wz.35. Gene Nygaard 29 June 2005 12:14 (UTC)
• Rename (to Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35): The problem is that the name of that weapon was Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35. So, if we wanted to translate it to English, it would have to be Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35 mark 1935 anti-tank rifle, which makes little sense. Why to forcibly translate it when there is no need to? You don't translate Panzer I to Armoured I, nor do you translate Panzerschreck to Tank Terror and panzerfaust to Armoured Fist. Similarily, you don't translate RPG-7 to Hand-held Anti-tank Grenade Launcher Mark 7 or HAGL 7 for that matter. Finally, you don't expand the name of Ordnance QF 6 pdr, you simply leave its name as it was. Thatąs why I believe that the name of this particular piece of weaponry should be left in its original form. Halibutt 23:37, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

We don't translate "Panzer", in part because "Panzer" is used in English. But "karabin przeciwpancerny" is not used in English.

There can well be differences between translating spelled out words, and not translating abbreviations and acronyms. So the title as is is not necessarily objectionable on those grounds.

Your RPG-7 argument would lead to the conclusion that this article ought to be Wz.1935.

Ordnance QF 6 pdr and the inconsistent QF 25 pdr are both bad names in their own right. Gene Nygaard 23:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gene Nygaard is also barely ever used in English, yet you use it as your name and there's no reason to translate it to Gene Newtown for instance. The proper name (not descriptive name but a proper noun) was either Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35 or kb ppanc wz.35 in short. If we are to translate proper names, then we should also start with our own names and all other proper names in wikipedia. Panzer to tank and Unterseeboot 110 to Submersible No. 110 included. Halibutt June 28, 2005 21:11 (UTC)

Finally, as to the RPG-7 example - it is an acronym. If we are to expand it, it would be Ruchnoi Protitankovoi Granatomiet 7 - that is Hand-held Anti-tank Grenade Launcher Mark 7.Halibutt June 28, 2005 21:28 (UTC)

I already pointed out, in disproving your claims of half-way conversion, that we are more likely to use acronyms in their original form in English. We don't use Ruchnoi Protitankovoi Granatomiet 7 in English, and that is not used as the article title in Misplaced Pages.

In this case, of course, it also helps that the acronym corresponds to the English name of this class of weapons. Gene Nygaard 29 June 2005 00:08 (UTC)

Do I get you wrong, or are you actually suggesting that "Kb ppanc wz.35" is a better name than a full name of Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35"? Halibutt June 29, 2005 10:35 (UTC)

No. First of all, that is not an acronym or initialism, and that abbreviation is not known in English and not closely attached to the identifying numerals as the "wz" is. Furthermore, I have no idea about the uniqueness of that abbreviation in Polish, and in any case I'd think that it would not be acceptable as a title even in the Polish Misplaced Pages, let alone this English Misplaced Pages. Now that my ideas have been more clearly developed, I'm changing my vote to retain the current title, though I still have some remaining doubts about the discrepancy in various sources between "35" and "1935", something which you haven't really addressed, but since both are used it can stay as it is. Gene Nygaard 29 June 2005 12:14 (UTC)

In fact this particular piece of equipment never had any other name than the official army name (more on that later) and the code-names used by the counter-intelligence. For a reason unknown to me, the Polish wiki uses the code-name (Karabin ppanc Ur) rather than its official name, but I guess that's simply a mistake.

As to the name vs abbreviation - this name is unique since it uses the same scheme as all other equipment developed by and for the Polish Army (or simply used in Poland since even French armament had Polish designations). Anyway, the kb or karabin stands for carbine. The same designation was used for other rifles and carbines in Polish service, most notably the kb wz. 98 (better known as Mauser rifle), kb 8mm wz. 1886/93 better known as Lebel rifle, and so on. ppanc or przeciwpancerny means anti-tank and was used to designate all AT weapons in Polish service, from grenades to artillery and from bombs to this rifle. So, these names as such were not unique - their combination was. And that is why it was used.

Anyway, we might leave this article here, but we should write a new article on some weapon that actually bore such name. No such piece of equipment ever existed in Poland, so the Anti-tank rifle wz.35 must be some foreign equipment. If you insist on placing some article here, then please do so. I'll simply move my contributions to the article on Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35, and we'll make Anti-tank rifle wz.35 a disambiguation leading to the article on the Polish rifle and the other article on some (British? American?) arms actually named Anti-tank rifle wz.35. Fine? Halibutt June 29, 2005 12:48 (UTC)

The key to the whole this is that "since even French armament had Polish designations". Misplaced Pages is replete with weaponry that is known by different names in different languages. Only in a few well-known cases does one designation get used generally around the world, and those cases are usually acronyms or include short names of manufacturers.

Your latest proposal is simply to rename this page without having achieved consensus to do so. Such renaming would normally include a redirect from the old name; making it a disambiguation page when there is nothing to disambiguate in the first place is also not an acceptable option. No, that is not acceptable. Any such move, now that you have placed it on Misplaced Pages:Requested moves would be totally improper. Gene Nygaard 29 June 2005 13:22 (UTC)

Again, something is wrong with my English. Do you suggest that English equipment should be named in English (as it is), French in French (as it is), German in German (as it is) and Polish equipment should be named in... English? Strange.

Anyway, if moving the article to where it should be is out of the question for you, then what do you suggest? The problem is that there was never a rifle called Anti-tank rifle wz.35. Currently this article suggests there was such piece of weaponry, but it's simply misleading (you yourself noted that there is nothing to disambiguate).

Finally, this case is similar to the case of city naming here in WP. If a city has got a well-established English-language name, then the article is under the English title rather than original, local name. However, when there is no English name then the articles are left under their original names. Similarily, if a weapon has got a well-established English designation (which is not the case here, apparently), then it is kept under English title. However, the person who moved this article from its original name simply invented an English name. Which also falls under WP:NOR, since in google war the original name beats the English translation 7 to 1 (even if only English pages are counted) and only one English-version link leads to a page that is not a wiki mirror .

So, basically, we're left with two options:

1. Use the proper name of this rifle
2. Keep with the name that was/is never used, yet sounds better for a Brit or American.

If you decide on the latter, then I'll be happy to ask you to translate your name to English as well. After all that's what we're talking about. We can move the article on Przemyśl to City of certain Przemysław (since that's what the name means), but would it make much sense to you? Halibutt June 29, 2005 14:24 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. violet/riga (t) 11:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

New voting

• Move for the reasons mentioned above and in the WP:RM. Halibutt 16:10, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose - what should we call Type 97 20 mm AT/AA Rifle then? This looks like a dubious vote so soon after the previous one. --Henrygb 01:03, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Same reasoning. Plus, there also should be a time limit on reproposing failed requested moves. Gene Nygaard 09:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I've delisted this. The vote is far too soon after the original one and has merely gained a further oppose vote. violet/riga (t) 14:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Please do not use the term pdr as an example of an acceptable term. I queried the acceptability of pdr recently. Bobblewik  (talk) 28 June 2005 19:04 (UTC)

Proposals?

Ok, since there is a consensus on wikipedia to invent new names instead of using original ones, then I'll simply withdraw what I added to this article and post it under the proper name. At the same time I encourage all people involved to find a gun that was actually named "Anti-tank rifle wz.35" and write an article on it.

Or perhaps there is some other solution? What do you say? Halibutt 13:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I replaced the misleading article with a stub describing the whole WP:NOR phenomenon. Halibutt 14:58, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I've sorry you feel this way. I've undone your changes as they are against the GFDL and the consensus of the editors at this article. Please don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point, and, while I understand your frustrations about the result not going your way, please remember that this is a consensus-driven project. violet/riga (t) 15:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I've simply moved my contributions to a new article, which is in accordance with the GFDL. If you feel the two articles (one on the actual gun I wrote and the other on some mysterious "wz.35") should be merged, then it's ok with me. There's always the {{merge}} and {{include}} tags, feel free to use them and discuss the merger. Or perhaps you have some other idea? Halibutt 15:29, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

You weren't the only person that contributed to this article, so unless you rewrote the other one from scratch you have broken the GFDL license. I've "merged" these article now - there's no need to go via WP:DA as that and the use of the merge tags is not policy. violet/riga (t) 15:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Accuracy dispute

The current article suggests that there used to be a firearm named Anti-tank rifle wz.35, while I can think of no such gun - at least no gun ever produced in Poland was named that way. There was a Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35, which could roughly be translated to English as Karabin przeciwpancerny wz.35 anti-tank rifle, but the name Anti-tank rifle wz.35 was most surely invented by some wikipedian. Or perhaps there was some other gun named that way, say from Belgium or USA? Halibutt 15:25, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

You aren't disputing accuracy. This has already been discussed in connection to your requested move. You yourself admitted that Polish names differed from French names. English names can differ from Polish names for the very same reason. It's not like people's names, it's not even like place names. It is a descriptive designation used to identify it in inventory, or in a manual, or whatever, and there is no need for it to be unique, rather sufficient to identify it. How many other "wz.1935" rifles are there? that's the relevant question to determine whether or not this is sufficiently identified in the title. BTW, why do you insist on "wz.35" rather than "wz.1935"? You never answered that, did you? Gene Nygaard 15:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Note also the lowercase "r" in "rifle" in the title. Do you understand the significance of that in the English language in general, and particularly in Misplaced Pages naming conventions? It means that this is not a "name" per se. Gene Nygaard 15:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Compare that "r", for example, with the "R" in Browning Automatic Rifle. Gene Nygaard 15:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

So, the current article suggests that the rifle was actually named "wz.35"? Nope... the full name was longer and there were other peaces of weaponry designated "wz. 35" or "wz. 1935" (earlier form was used in most cases), for instance the "wz. 35" which was nicknamed Vis pistol and the "wz. 35" hand grenade.

On the other hand, I still fail to see a single source outside of the wiki that:

1. this rifle has an English name other than the original name
2. the name "Anti-tank rifle wz.35" is used by anyone outside of wikipedia

Halibutt 15:59, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Do you understand the point about "r" vs. "R"?

The wz.35 is the relevant portion of the designation, this being the only anti-tank rifle with that designation. Gene Nygaard 16:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, I can live with the current name, as long as there is a consensus to move other peaces of weaponry as well:

• Panzer III to Armour III tank or Panzer Mark 3 tank
• Boyes Anti-tank Rifle to Anti-tank rifle Boyes
• Karabiner 43 to Rifle 43
• Panzerschreck to anti-tank rocket launcher Armoured Terror
• Sturmgewehr 44 to Storm rifle 44
• Walther P38 tp Pistol P38
• FG 42 to Paratrooper rifle 42
• SVT-40 to semi-automatic rifle 40
• M40 recoilless rifle to recoilless rifle M40
• M14 (rifle) to Rifle Mark 14
• Springfield 1903 rifle to Rifle 1903

And many, many more. All should have their name changed to the new system, with the actual name being abbreviated and preceded by the description of the type. Halibutt 16:13, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

So propose them if you want to. You probably won't get far on many of them. Just keep in mind the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:Don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point.

There are also additional factors which come into play relevant to the discussion above about the use of "Panzer" and the like in English, including:

1. German is more widely spoken than Polish.
2. German is much more closely related to English (both being Germanic languages) than Polish (in the Balto-Slavic languages).
3. English speakers were much more exposed to the German names of weaponry, especially from World War II.
   

All of these are legitimate reasons why your proposed Polish name doesn't work in the English Misplaced Pages.

Regarding your SVT-40 example, you yourself have pointed out the reason for adding the additional identifying information that this one deals with an "anti-tank rifle", since the name alphanumerical designation can also be used for a pistol and a grenade.

Regarding Walther and Springfield, you yourself have failed, in all the discussion here on the talk page, to mention the designer's name which is also often used in identifying the rifle in this article. You should be aware of the simple fact that names of persons and of companies are much more transportable across languages than descriptive terms are. Compare the use of eponymous names for many of the units in the International System of Units; why do you suppose that was done? Gene Nygaard 16:40, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Which, unfortunately, doesn't have much to do with my questions. Please be so kind as to provide sources for:

1. the current name being used by anyone anywhere outside of wikipedia
2. the Misplaced Pages rule that would promote invented descriptive titles over the original names
3. that only a part of the original name is valid, while the other is not (your example is a complete absurd, since it's the other way around: there was only one Polish "karabin przeciwpancerny", while there were much more Polish "wz. 35" weapons)

Also, take note that the initial title of this article was changed without any consensus reached on the talk page. Also, please refrain yourself from this childish revert war: deleting the dispute tag will not prove your point and will not make the current title right. So far this article is misleading since it suggests that there was either an anti-tank rifle named "wz.35" or that there was a piece of weaponry named "Anti-tank rifle wz.35". Both of these statements are false (or highly dubious, if you prefer) and are disputed by yours truly. Halibutt 17:08, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Finally, if you prefer abbreviations over full names, then let's simply move this article to kb ppanc wz.35 and settle the dispute once and for all. Halibutt 17:15, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

why not call it after Maroszek, it seems others did http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ATRart.htm GraemeLeggett 13:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I would still prefer to call it with its actual name and not some handy shortcuts invented by modern authors, but if that's not a choice and we have to use some non-original name, then Maroszek would be a decent choice. But what should be the name then? Halibutt 13:53, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for someone to prove that there was a weapon named "Anti-tank rifle wz.35". Otherwise this article is misleading. Halibutt 09:38, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Naming

I've read through the discussion a couple of times now. My interpretation of the name would be Rifle, Anti-tank, Model 35. Sounds just like a British military title doesn't it. Not a good name for an article though. "Maroszek Anti-tank Rifle Model 35" or "Polish Anti-tank Rifle Model (19)35" are probably passable article titles. You can then set up no end of redirects to it tocover all other eventualities eg k________ p_______ wz35. GraemeLeggett 14:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

But this would be just another way of using some descriptive title instead of a 100% legitimate proper name. See my example with possible move of Queen Victoria to That fatty ol' lady who ruled the UK. I still see no reason for such a move... Halibutt 15:40, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

From my further investigations, I am going to suggest that the best approximation in English is Armour-piercing Rifle Model 35 and for a wikipedia title add (Poland) afterwards. GraemeLeggett 10:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The real problem here is Halibutt's faulty premise that weapons have and must have a unique, international "proper name". Then you want to compound the problem by insisting on what I'd presume to be an overliteral translation style, and one that also gets us into arguments about the proper spelling of "armor". Gene Nygaard 12:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no proper spelling of armour - just the one appropriate to the author. GraemeLeggett 13:29, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Rather than wait for you two to agree on a name. I have taken unilateral action. To whit - move/rename, copyedit, fix links ie general article improvement. GraemeLeggett 15:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

That is totally improper in light of the fact that this is a recently failed request for move. After a reasonable time has passed, you could bring it up again. Gene Nygaard 15:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Arms, cars, spaceships, sea vessels, people, computer programes - all have their proper names and all are under their appropriate names in wikipedia (except perhaps for the royal families). Why should this carbine be an exception to that rule? And again, was there any weapon named "Anti-tank rifle wz.35" anytime - anywhere? Halibutt 11:25, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

There are, of course, differences of opinion on what to use for the Misplaced Pages article titles of almost all of the things you have mentioned. In other words, there aren't any generally accepted, international, offical names for any of them—including especially people, and especially when they have spent parts of their lives in different parts of the world.

Damn it, you are still not disputing the factual accuracy of any statement in this article. Stop adding the sham dispute tag. There is an established procedure for settling disputes about names of articles. You know that—you used it and failed in the initial attempt. Use it again at an appropriate time if you still think a change is necessary.

The integrity of the WP:RM process needs to be defended.

Since you keep raising the point, and apparently need a little help in getting the most out of a search engine:

• http://miniatures.de/html/int/neu_list2cz.html

• AT Rifle wz.35, 20 mm Raventhorpe
• AT Rifle wz.35 and Cavalry Crew (dismounted), 20 mm SHQ WZ2
• AT Rifle wz.35 and Cavalry Crew (mounted), 20 mm SHQ WZ6
• AT Rifle wz.35 and Cavalry Crew (mounted/dismounted), 1:76 BW Models CP3

• http://www.pj.baldwin.btinternet.co.uk/faa.htm

• Ur. Wz. 35 A/T Rifle Team Moving & Firing

• http://www.pmulcahy.com/sniper_rifles/german_sniper_rifles.htm

• During the invasion of Poland in World War 2, examples of ammunition for the Polish Wz-35 antitank rifle were captured

• http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/sp1wpns.htm

• WZ 35 AT-Rifle

• http://www.atlantisalliance.com/76-FIG-polp2.htm

• Mounted Cavalry Trooper, with Wz 35 anti tank rifle, standing horse

Laying Cavalry Trooper with Wz 35 anti tank rifle

• http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/pl/anti-tank/wz35.htm

• WZ-35 Marosczek anti-tank

Of course, the basic problem remains your faulty premise that weapons have official, international proper names. Consider, for example, the fact that chemical elements have proper international symbols, and international agencies which establish their names, yet though the symbols are uniform internationally, they can be spelled out as "Wolfram" in Deutsch and "tungsten" (which doesn't even match the symbol W) in English, plus all the cesium/caesium and sulfur/sulphur and aluminum/aluminium arguments we get into here on Misplaced Pages. Some other things such as comets are assigned official, international names by somebody whose authority to do so is fairly generally conceded by the involved parties.

Unlike those elements, which don't have absolute uniformity even with international naming standards, there in no international weapons-naming standards agency. Gene Nygaard 12:47, 30 July 2005 (UTC)