Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:27, 25 March 2008

Create your own section to provide evidence in, and do not edit anyone else's section. Keep your evidence to a maximum of 1000 words and 100 diffs. Evidence longer than this will be refactored or removed entirely.

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Create your own section and do not edit in anybody else's section. Please limit your main evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs and keep responses to other evidence as short as possible. A short, concise presentation will be more effective; posting evidence longer than 1000 words will not help you make your point. Over-long evidence that is not exceptionally easy to understand (like tables) will be trimmed to size or, in extreme cases, simply removed by the Clerks without warning - this could result in your important points being lost, so don't let it happen. Stay focused on the issues raised in the initial statements and on diffs which illustrate relevant behavior.

It is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff in question, or to a short page section; links to the page itself are insufficient. Never link to a page history, an editor's contributions, or a log for all actions of an editor (as those will have changed by the time people click on your links), although a link to a log for a specific article or a specific block log can be useful. Please make sure any page section links are permanent. See simple diff and link guide.

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see the talk page. If you think another editor's evidence is a misrepresentation of the facts, cite the evidence and explain how it is incorrect within your own section. Please do not try to re-factor the page or remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, leave it for the Arbitrators or Clerks to move.

Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as Arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies, Arbitrators vote at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators may edit /Proposed decision.

Evidence presented by User:Jossi

Backround on my involvement

• Jossi (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• I declared my affiliation: on September 1, 2004, a few months after my first edit to Misplaced Pages.
• I made a further disclosure, User:Jossi/Disclosure, on October 2006.
• As of March 16 2008, I have performed a total of 61,987 contributions to Misplaced Pages, of which 22,721 in article namespace, and 11,563 in article talk namespace.
• In the course of my participation in this aticle over the years I have provided the vast majority of scholarly sources for the article (with the exception of scholarly sources in other languages than English and a few others), including works by Gordon J. Melton, John Bowker, Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, E. Fahlbusch, J. M. Lochman, Charles Lippy, Ron Geaves, Rosemary Goring, Jeffrey K. Hadden, Stephen J. Hunt, Raymond Lee, Keneth Lee, James R. Lewis, Meredith McGuire, Tim Miller, Spencer Palmer, William Pryor, Lucy Dupertius, and other non-scholarly authors such as David V. Barrett, Sophia Collier, Andrea Cagan, and others, providing full cites for other editors to evaluate at Talk:Prem_Rawat/scholars. I have also contributed a number of WP:SELFPUB sources for editors' evaluation.
• In the last year (since March 16, 2007) I made a total of 64 edits to the Prem Rawat article, of which 47 edits where minor edits, such as correcting cite formatting, or adding refs; 6 edits where removal of obvious vandalism; and two of the remaining 11 edits performed in these 12 months were adding well-sourced criticism found in scholarly sources: diff, and diff, in response to a GA review performed by User:Vassyana circa March 2007.
• Despite these minimal edits over the last 12 months, after receiving community feedback, I declared my intent to limit myself to talk page discussions only - (February 10, 2008.)
• During the same time I engaged in vigorous debates in talk page, providing sources when requested, and assisted editors on ways to improve the article, while encouraging them to be respectful to each other and avoid misusing the talk page for off-topic comments, soapboxing and other obvious disruption.
• On February 18, 2008 I proposed mediation as next step of dispute resolution, which was supported by User:Will Beback, but there were no takers.
• On March 4, 2008, upon a proposal made by User:Will Beback and myself, the article was placed on community-enforced 1RR and disruption probation. This helped for a while, only to be later ignored (See AN/I reports: 1,2, 3).
• During 2007, I worked alongside other editors on the article Lord of the Universe (documentary) (a satirical documentary highly critical of Prem Rawat), which attained GA status on December 1, 2007.
• I have informed all editors, when needed, to respect Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies, such as WP:CIVILITY, to avoid soapboxing or using talk pages as a discussion forum, as well as encouraging editors to avoid edit-warring and to look for ways to find common ground and workable compromises. I issued warnings to editors, regardless of affiliation or declared or undeclared POVs, for example asking Momento to re-consider his editing behavior, warning PatW for making personal attacks, as I would have done in any other article I have come across in which such disruption was made evident.
• Despite unsubstantiated claims, I have never used or misused my admin privileges or exerted "administrator influence" (whatever that means) in this or any other related or unrelated articles. My contributions to talk page have been exclusively within my privileges as an editor amongst other editors on equal terms.
• My comments in the different noticeboards which I actively monitor and participate, such as WP:V/N, WP:BLP/N, WP:AN, WP:AN/I, WP:WQA, and WP:AN/3RR have been consistent, regardless if these comments were related to the subject of this arbitration, or not, or to involved editors or not.

Having said all this, I know I am not without fault, and acknowledge that I may have erred from time to time. I would hope that these faults would be assessed in the context of some intense personal attacks and misleading claims made against me and the subject of the article, on and off-wiki.

I consider myself a private person, and as such, I am unwilling to disclose any personal information besides what I have already disclosed. Given the speculation on and off-wiki about my involvement with the subject of this case, I will be willing to consider disclosing, in chambers, additional information to the ArbCom, if the ArbCom sees this as necessary and upon their request only.

Requesting community input

Requests for community input include several WP:RFCs and reviews:

• First peer review (Oct 25 2006) Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Biography/Peer_review/Prem_Rawat/Review_1. Initiated by Jossi
• Second peer review (Oct 31 2006) Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Prem Rawat. Initiated by Jossi
• GA Review (March 11 2007) . Initiated by Jossi. GA Review performed by User:Vassyana
  • Comments after the peer review:
    • User:Momento Thank you for your excellent review. I agree with everything Vassyana wrote.
    • User:PatW So you agree with "everything Vassyana wrote"? You really are stretching the boundaries of belief there. Could that possibly be a cynical comment? Let's get this straight because your words and actions so far suggest quite the opposite.
    • User:Jossi Why the cynicism and the repeating of the review, Pat? There is a lot of work to be done, and it would be best if we keep it cool. -- There is a lot of work to do in this article if we ever want the article to be upgraded from B-Class to GA status. The focus of the discussions in the page should not be on our views of other editors, but in working toward that goal. -- I sincerely hope we can work out a version that addresses the concerns presented, and that it reaches a stable state so that it can be reviewed again. I will drop you a line when we have achieve that. Thanks again.
    • Comment by GA reviewer (March 23 2007), commending editors on the good progress made:

User:PatW has misused talk pages, user pages, and engaged in personal attacks

PatW (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been warned numerous times for personal attacks, and talk page disruption.

• Despite the warnings, PatW continues misusing talk page discussions with long diatribes, baiting editors, expressing personal opinions about the subject of the article and its editors, etc.
• PatW has made a total of 1,084 edits to Misplaced Pages since his first edit on April 2006, of which only 22 edits are in article namespace. All other edits are to talk pages and exclusively about the subject of this case.

Some examples of recent personal attacks

Per Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive383#User:PatW

• User_talk:PatW#No_personal_attacks_3 Feb 9, 2008, for this attack (Feb 9, 2008): You horrible, HORRIBLE bunch of liars are all going to hopefully be revealed as the shameless dishonest, immoral brain-washed creeps you clearly are
• User_talk:PatW#Warning on soapbox, arguing, and personal attacks- for this comment (Feb 24, 2008), and previous comments during that period.
• User was warned about article probation. (March 4, 2008).
• Describing editors as "shameless servants". Diff (March 9, 2008)

Some examples of WP:NOT#SOAP and WP:NOT#FORUM violations

• Diff
• Diff
• Diff
• See also his talk page in which previous warnings where placed, and his user page (both blanked on March 10 after this good advise by non-involved User:Nsk92)

User:Francis Schonken has injected himself in the dispute, disrupted editing, and sabotaged the community enforced article probation

Francis Schonken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has tried to cast himself as a "neutral editor", but has failed to assist editors in the content dispute. Rather than offer help he seems to have decided to take it upon himself to "fix" the article. Being bold is a good thing sometimes, but dismissing other editors as "POV pushers" is unhelpful, as it is edit-warring with them. Evidence follows.

Background

• Francis Schonken re-started editing the article after more than a year of not editing, reverting to his last edit at the time. His last edit January 19, 2007 - his February 8, 2008 reversion. Despite the obvious disruption, I welcomed his participation, and encouraged him to work alongside others: , and .
• Several editors, (involved editors and others as well) alerted him of the mistake he was making in deleting hundreds of contributions and losing many sources and material. He reverted back to to the old version twice first revert - Feb 8, 0:52, second revert - Feb 8 12:32, desisting after other non-involved editors convinced him to stop. The article was protected on Feb 9 due to the edit-warring.
• On Feb 12, Francis again reverted to the same old version diff, only to be reverted by User:Sarcasticidealist, and uninvolved editor, with a edit summary of reverting a very unhelpful step in the consensus process diff
• Since returning to edit the article (Feb 8, 2008), Francis made 128 edits to Prem Rawat, 22 marked as minor edits. From the remaining 106 edits, 19 were reversions of other editors' contributions. diff. He reverted edits by Momento (7 reverts), Janice Rowe (2 reverts), Rainer P. (1 revert), and Louise.Po (1 revert)

Francis Schonken sabotaged the community-enforced 1RR probation

• Francis Schonken objected to the 1RR probation proposal , on the grounds that it it bends good guidance in all sort of directions in order to give POV-pushers an unjustifiable advantage.
• Diff of 1RR probation notice
• After the probation was implemented, he dismissed the probation on grounds of "wikilawyering" and "confusing wording"

1. First 1RR parole violation AN/I Report
   • 15:37, March 13, 2008 1st revert
   • 15:49, March 13, 2008 2nd revert
2. Second 1RR parole violation AN/I report, which he dismissed with claims that the ANI report was "belligerent filibustering", and calls to impose restrictions on me']:
   • 23:18, March 15, 2008 ((Undid revision 198499325 by Momento (talk) this is not what Hunt says)
   • 23:04, March 15, 2008 (Undid revision 198509229 by Momento (talk) not covered by the sources here; is covered in the section with other sources)

• The 1RR probation wording was unambiguous (my highlight): Editors violating 1RR (one revert per editor per day), or that engage in disruptive editing may incur escalating blocks performed by uninvolved admins, or have other reasonable restrictions placed on them in relation to these topics.
• Francis as en experienced contributor should known by now the meaining of page probation, and what 1RR probation, means: If someone reverts your change, don't re-revert it, but discuss it with them (per Misplaced Pages:1RR).

Francis Schonken takes a surprising lenient attitude towards WP:NPA

Witnessing a vicious personal attack by User:PatW , this is what Francis had to say to him "Pat, Jossi interprets your comment above (and other comments on this page) as a personal attack." diff, instead of refactoring, or at minimum placing a warning in his talk page or at WP:WQA as customary.

Francis Schonken does nothing when asked to intervene in a BLP violation

When a BLP violation was posted by an anon user,on Feb 29, 2008) I asked Francis as a "non-involved" editor to take action and refactor the offending comment. He did not respond, and did nothing. After no one did anything I refactored it myself,.

Summary

Francis Schonken came to help with the article upon the publishing of the The Register article, and despite his claims that he came as a neutral editor, he has injected himself in the dispute, and has shown very poor judgment in his interactions with editors he openly describe as "POV pushers", by applying the mistaken behavior that it is OK to revert their contributions because of his negative assessment of them. Most, if not all, reverts and ANI complains have been exclusively about editors that he has assessed as having a pro bias, while being overtly lenient about others. It seems that for Francis, dispute resolution does not apply to him. He objected to the attempts to dispute resolution, such as the negotiated community-enforced 1RR probation, and when the proposal passed it was not too soon that he sabotaged the probation on the basis of poor wording and by violating it, showing again a disregard for WP's dispute resolution process.

User:Momento applies a narrow interpretation of WP:BLP

Momento (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), edits almost exclusively on Prem Rawat and related articles

• Momento has a tendency to apply a narrow interpretation of WP:BLP which got him into trouble despite warnings.
• Since Feb 8 (date of the The Register article), Momento performed approximately 148 edits to Prem Rawat
• Momento has been recently blocked twice for WP:3RR, based on his narrow interpretation of WP:BLP upon AN/3RR notices placed since that date, about which he argued he was acting in applying BLP policy.

Replies to other evidence presented

@User:Matthew Stannard

1. Multiple "press releases" have been posted under my name, but have not been posted by me or by the Prem Rawat Foundation. Evidence of this is the email addresses used in these postings: Example 1 posted October 2007 using an email address associated with a critical site (drek.org) drek.maharaji@gmail.com. Example 2: with an email address of a free email service maharajitprf@gmail.com. With the exception of one link, all these "press release" sites are free services that anyone can post to under any name.

   As far as I can see the Foundation's press releases are made through PRWeb and linked from their press releases on their website. Example which links to PR Web . The email address featured in these press releases are from the tprg.org TLD.

   I can only speculate why someone would want to associate my name with these press releases.

2. Regarding this redirect, check the diff. I was just correcting a mistake. The previous version contained a redirect and the text of an old version of that article.
3. Regarding user Prem Rawat (talk · contribs), he was not "banned" as Matthew Stannard alleges, but softblocked and encouraged to register with a different name , due to obvious impersonation and other shenanigans which can be read on his talk page. See User_talk:Prem_Rawat#Register_with_a_new_name.

@User:Francis Schonken

1. PatW's behavior: PatW has been warned numerous times, and has been unable to stop the recurring personal attacks and abuse of talk pages, despite previous claims that he will stop, or that he will stop participating.
2. Kim Bruning's advice: Kim's advice and interaction with PatW was very useful, although it was not a symmetrical issue and should not be framed as such. WP:CIVILITY is not optional, but a requirement. I believe that PatW needs to make a public commitment that he will no longer engage in such behavior and that he understands the consequences of not doing so. It will be up to the ArbCom to impose restrictions such as NPA parole, if needed.
3. Have a well-written article on Prem Rawat — Finally something we agree on. I would only add "and stable."
4. Do what I can to keep Misplaced Pages out of negative press. — Negative press from the likes of The Register's Cade Metz , where there before this and will continue after this despite any thing you or I could do.
5. do not give me any BS about good intentions. Francis believes this comment of mine is a personal attack, I beg to differ.
6. there were more personal attacks by Jossi, for the convenience of this case, and unless compelled, I will limit myself to a single example) I hereby challenge and compel Francis to present such evidence.
7. History of editing restrictions: Misplaced Pages works by the building of consensus through talk page discussions. If these fail, there is dispute resolution. People have the right to decide not to edit or not to participate in discussions, but that does not give them the right to complain that the article is not of quality if they chose not tpo participate. Yes, we know it is sometimes a hard and tedious process, but that is the way it works in Misplaced Pages and until a better way is found, that is the way it is.

@User:John Brauns

I appreciate that my evidence is not the kind that is expected here, and some of the committee may dismiss it as anecdotal or simply untrue. Well said. These pages are to provide evidence, not to advocate for your opinions on the subject of this case, or to use your favorite pejoratives. I will ask the clerk to consider the possibility to move the long tirade to talk page, requesting John Brauns to summarize his evidence as per protocol. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see Conduct on Arbitration pages. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

@User:Maelefique‎

1. I can see you are a new user. (Your first edit to Misplaced Pages, Feb 9, 2008 was to a related a IfD , and the remaining 60 edits exclusively about the subject of this article. Welcome to Misplaced Pages!), so it would be understandable that you may have missed the point that excellent articles are developed through topical and civilized discussions and debates in talk page, as demonstrated to the diffs you provided related to the documentary article. Thank you for providing these.
2. My response to the question about the reliability of sources has been consistent with other cases. Namely, I have always asserted that editorial judgment about suitability of material, in the context of all other existing policies needs to be exercised, in particular in BLPs. See the lead of WP:NPOV for a good formulation about this. You can also read an essay I worked on with others; Misplaced Pages:Evaluating_sources, which reads: The decision as to which sources are appropriate in any given situation is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on individual article talk pages to achieve consensus. In cases where a consensus is not forthcoming, it may be helpful to seek some assistance in reaching an agreement.
3. I have nominated several editors for adminship. And yes, you are more "verbose" when you nominate a user, than when you are expressing your supporting for a user.
4. Thanks for the clarification regarding your use of a sockpuppet account to participate in this case, but please see Misplaced Pages:SOCK#Alternative_account_notification. Please note that neither me or ArbCom would have known this unless you disclosed it. My comments regarding your evidence stand, regardless. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

@User:PatW

1. Unfortunately most of your evidence is to archive pages and not to diffs so it is difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate your comments against the evidence.
2. I will respond only to this one: Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_24#Jossi.27s_Conflict_of_Interest posted by User:Sylviecyn. You can see there the comments by Jayjg: , Vassyana, and JPGordon (by some reason some diffs from May 17 are not obtainable, so I have anchored these comments, for easy access.) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

@User:Cla68

I do not know what is the relevance of Citizendium in this arbitration, but in any case, see the the whole thread - The initial post was by a "Nik w", who signs as "A. C." ("Andrew Carpenter", maybe?) ; the reply was given by Dr. Robert H. Stockman, Religious Studies, DePaul University,, followed by my reply .

Evidence presented by User:John Brauns

Backround to Jossi's role on Misplaced Pages

I am the webmaster of websites ex-premie.org and prem-rawat-talk.org where former followers of Prem Rawat give testimony on their time as followers of Rawat and discuss the topic. I also front other websites where the true owners are unwilling to risk the inevitable harrassment by current followers of Rawat by publishing their names.

Firstly, I unapologetically use the word cult in my evidence because after nine years of processing my 25 years as a believer in Rawat, I can see his movement in no other way. It is impossible to understand Jossi's role here without understanding more about the Rawat cult in a wider context than Misplaced Pages. From the early 80s to the late 90s, Rawat deliberately and pretty much successfully avoided all publicity. As a result, many cult watchers believed the cult had disappeared completely. Until ex-followers started posting on usenet in 1996, an internet search for Rawat under any of his names would have yielded no results. I heard Rawat himself diss the internet as of no value. Then the ex-followers presence became one that the cult could not ignore, so in 1999 Rawat changed his mind, and put up his first website, and followers followed suit. Around this time the cult embarked on what is called the 'legitimacy' campaign. City Mayors were lobbied to give awards to Rawat. Halls were rented in prestigious locations such as UN buildings and Stanford University and photographs and videos released that give the false appearance of Rawat speaking at the UN. Some of this policy was actually described in a cult publication, "Connect North America" , where a cult spokesman wrote; We’re looking at some unique speaking engagements and at ways for Maharaji to be formally acknowledged for his work. A US Governor recently recognized Maharaji "in honor of his exemplary career, life accomplishments, and many contributions to citizens". We’d like to pursue more tributes like that. Had a journalist tried to do research in 1995, after 24 years of Rawat's 'career' and 'achievements' outside India, he would have come up with some old obscure academic research and even older newspaper articles, and that's all. Part of this campaign has been to denigrate Rawat's former followers that post on the internet. A favorite tactic is to accuse us of mental illness.

I mention all this because Jossi has been at the heart of the attempt to establish legitimacy for Rawat on the internet from the start. He was the webmaster of Rawat's first website in 1999, as well as the webmaster of related websites such as Rawat's A/V company, Dunrite, and a followers' music website, Eversound. The early Misplaced Pages articles on Prem Rawat were battlegrounds between current and former followers (no one else had any interest in or knowledge of the subject). It quickly became clear to me that it was impossible to have a stable, accurate, article on Rawat in those circumstances, as any change by either 'side' would be reverted immediately by the other, and I largely retired from editing, as did most other former followers. Current followers, fired by their religious zeal, continued to edit. I can't prove it but I believe that the cult had the same thought, and decided that to get the Misplaced Pages article on Rawat to be as positive and as stable as possible, it was essential to have a Misplaced Pages Admin in place. Jossi is an intelligent person, and he would know that in order to be accepted as an Admin he would have to work hard to understand Misplaced Pages's rules, and to edit a wide range of articles. I have admiration for his dedication to his service. One of the three important tenets of the Rawat belief system is service to Prem Rawat. Jossi is a dedicated follower, and is willing to do what it takes to please his Master.

Regarding Jossi's evidence above, I am sure it is largely accurate. What is missing is that when he acknowledged in 2004 that he is a 'proud student' of Rawat's, he declined to mention his involvement in Rawat's websites, which was a clear breach of WP:COI. Also, in all his edits, I have never seen him revert a pro-Rawat edit, regardless of the quality of the source. I have asked him to show me such a revert and he was unable or unwilling to do so.

I appreciate that my evidence is not the kind that is expected here, and some of the committee may dismiss it as anecdotal or simply untrue, but I believe it is important that you understand the context of Jossi's involvement here. If Jossi really does believe in the Wiki project, he should be happy to avoid any possibility of further tarnishing Misplaced Pages's reputation by absenting himself from all Rawat related articles. This should apply to other long-time Rawat followers such as Momento and Rumiton. Myself, and, I believe, other former followers, would be happy to do the same and allow the article to be edited by neutral editors. The problem is that until the Register article, no else was interested in the subject.

A final word about my own contributions to talk pages. I have occasionally made comments to other editors about publishing information on them outside Misplaced Pages, and I have made other comments not related to the articles in question, that I have apologised for, and do so here again. --John Brauns (talk) 10:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Replies to other evidence presented

@User:Jossi

Jossi suggests that I summarise this evidence. As I explained, it is impossible to understand Jossi's role on Misplaced Pages without understanding the background. This is already a summary, and I will not further summarise. Of course if the clerk deletes this then there is nothing I can do, but this arbitration will be the poorer for that. --John Brauns (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I thank Jossi for recommending yet another link to Misplaced Pages policies/guidlines/rules, etc, but I have read that particular link and my evidence does not transgress it one iota. --John Brauns (talk) 00:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

@User:Isabella

Refering to my discussion forum Isabella states:- "Although they (the forum administrators) now moderate postings and edit comments by its members that may bring a criminal liability upon this forum or cross the line into hate speech". For the record, in the over two years the forum has been in existence we have never had to edit or delete posts for the reasons Isabella claims. --John Brauns (talk) 23:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by user:Andries

Brief history of the article

Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_28#Brief_history_of_editing_principles_used_for_this_article

After user:Vassyana's failed Good article review a complete condensed re-write had been made by user:Momento and user:Rumiton, supported by Jossi that replaced a longer version that had a degree of consensus. They rejected all my and User:Sylviecyn's objections to their version, both in the draft period and afterwards. 12:51, 13 May 2007 Diff comment by Andries on Momento's and Rumiton's complete rewrite Numerous other re-writes had been made and proposed by other contributors but the version by Rumiton and Momento remained unreverted in spite of my many criticisms. Then I decided that mediation was necessary. When the mediation between Momento and I was rejected. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Rejected/28#Prem_Rawat_3, I became powerless to prevent the article becoming one-sided. Then the article received well-deserved bad publicity from the register. (I had no prior knowledge of the register article until it appeared.).

This register article brought in some new people in among others Francis Schonken who had little prior involvement in the article. Andries (talk) 09:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Andries' behavior

Andries has occasionally made mistake in paraphrasing sources, both in Rawat related articles and in unrelated articles. He attributes these mistakes to his habit of quick but not very accurately reading of sources. Andries (talk) 09:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Andries hereby denies that he is a (former) follower of Rawat. Andries (talk) 08:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Jossi's has repeatedly been unwilling or unable to assume Andries' good faith regarding his contributions related to Rawat. Andries thinks that Jossi's attitute towards him is partially due to his occasional mistakes in paraphrasing sources in combination with the hypersensitivity of the subject and opposing POVs of Jossi and Andries. Andries hereby admits that he has sometimes focused on providing sources for statements that can be intended as critical, but this grew partially out of the habit of Momento to challenge anything critical. Andries hereby vehemently denies that Jossi's opinion that Andries is a bad faith editor has any basis in reality and hereby states that the fraction and seriousness of the mistakes that he made in Rawat related articles is lower and less serious than the mistakes that he made in in unrelated articles. Andries (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by User:Maelefique

Opening Statement and Observations

I have no doubt, that on unrelated topics, Jossi is, as described, a great Wikipedian, however, we are talking about one topic, and one topic only, and that would be the sphere of articles that reflect on Prem Rawat. Other unassociated articles should not be included in this discussion here, they have no bearing whatsoever on the claims made against him here. I have no grudge against Jossi personally and was completely unaware of his and Prem Rawat's existence until earlier this year. Unlike other editors who seem to have left out some pertinent information, I do not have a conflict of interest that I am aware of. I have never been a premie, am not a premie now, and have never knowingly worked for any organization that is run for, by, or in association with, Prem Rawat. Nor do I have any prior affiliation of any kind with any of the other editors I have interacted with on this topic.

COI and Common Sense (arguably the least common of the senses...)

On a common sense basis, if I work for a company, and I also do some freelance journalism, and I spend some of my time criticizing my employer, is it not somewhat obvious that the vast majority of companies would frown on this practice, possibly leading to career problems? On the other hand, if I was to only write glowing reviews of my employer, I'm sure they would be fine with it. I have never seen Jossi write anything critical of Prem Rawat, this is basically what the term "Conflict of Interest" refers to, whether he admits it or not.

Administrator Influence

Whether Jimbo thinks so or not, there is a certain prestige that comes along with being a WP admin/janitor, especially for editors familiar with the system. So when Jossi makes a suggestion that editors should change certain things it should be in no way surprising to see other pro-Rawat editors jump in to help out minutes later, 3 minutes later in this case. As well as a similar effect here, leading, again, to another Pro-Rawat editor doing Jossi's bidding here 2 hours later. As an analogy, it's like having the cool guy from your high school in the car with you, egging you on. And conversely, when he admonishes someone else, it naturally has a momentary chilling effect. Rightly or wrongly, these things happen. Ironicly Jossi says above that he has never exerted "administrator influence" (quotes are his), and then immediately says "(whatever that means)"... well if you don't know what it means, a) you should find out, and b) you can't really claim you haven't done it, can you?!

Another example of his attempt at influencing the process is here, where he is defending a pro-Rawat editor who was nominated for admin status, nothing wrong with that, except there is a lot of criticism for someone who Jossi seems so enthusiastic about. In fact, Jossi uses 163 words here in support of this pro-Rawat editor, who apparently engages in this exact same POV pushing issue with Rawat. Attempting to marshall his forces? (for reference,In terms of words typed, it takes his next 21 votes in support for admins, combined, for him to equal the verbosity he shows for this single pro-Prem Rawat editor.

Jossi attempts to subvert the "Lord of the Universe" article as well

Jossi indicates he worked on the Lord of the Universe (documentary), reading the talk page shows more of the same POV pushing that we are discussing here.

• Jossi tries to change the context of the article .
  • Jossi's attempt fails.
• Jossi tries to have the film removed from the "Documentary Film" category,,and placed in a less prestigious category.
  • Jossi's attempt fails.
• Jossi, having successfully removed a director's name, without providing a source, attempts to have a quote removed from the cover of the video.
  • Jossi's attempt fails.
• Jossi wants a statement about levitation removed, distorts the issue, with facts not in evidence.
  • Jossi's attempt fails.
    • Jossi attempts to belabor the point, still without references and even in spite of references.
      • And then another pro-Rawat editor tries to chime in without sources, yet again, and again, (refuted), and again, (and again refuted).

Jossi is not helpful unless it suits his POV

Above, Jossi says "During the same time I engaged in vigorous debates in talk page, providing sources when requested,".

• I asked for a source for some claimed award, was pointed by Jossi to an entire article in portuguese.
  • When I pointed out the article didn't say what he claimed, he re-quoted me back a single semi-relevant sentence from the article.
    • When I again pointed out that the single sentence did not support his claim he simply stopped replying to me.
• On another occasion, when I asked him to help with a reference, I was pointed to the entire list of sources for the Prem Rawat Article.I think my reply sums it up nicely.
• Jossi refuses to correct a pro-Rawat editor who claims the LA Times is not a credible source, even when asked directly, again and again, (the LA Times, was of course found to be a credible source by another panel, later).

Not Even-Handed When Dealing With Advocates and Critics of Prem Rawat

Jossi is no stranger to making threats of censure, or of pointing out WP policy violations on the talk page to people who seem critical of Rawat, or opposed to his POV,as shown by other editors on this page. And yet, the only time I can find any reference to any pro-Prem Rowat editor being reprimanded in any way, is somewhat privately, on that user's talk page, not the in the article's talk page, in public as it were, where all the dissenting voices are challenged by Jossi.

Closing observations

Jossi says he has attemped to enforce civility and WP's behavioral/editing policies. I would say he is engaging in WP's version of Vexatious Litigation in an attempt to slow down the altering of the article, and to grind down the other authors, to "wait them out". Sooner or later, as is evidenced by the amount of editors that come and go on this article, many editors who do not have a "personal" connection to the subject get tired of bashing their head against the wall, and leave the article, Jossi however remains ever-vigilant.

Unrelated to Jossi, I would just like to comment on the text introduced by IsabellaW, it would seem to be entirely without merit, and without any evidence to present on this specific case whatsoever, I would humbly suggest that a clerk or an arbitrator look into removing it, if only to avoid reflecting badly on Jossi in particular, as well as other involved members of this arbitration. I am in no way related to any of the groups she indicates, and yet, she would paint me as a "operative" of some fringe element against Rawat.

My apologies, I am also a little over my 1000 words.

Replies to Jossi's rebuttal of my evidence

(I checked with the clerk, this is allowed, and kept as brief as possible)

1. You make a broad assumption that I am a new user. I feel this issue has certain controversial aspects to it, and choose to use this account solely to deal with this issue (I have never edited any PR related articles with any other account). I don't feel that has any bearing. If I changed to another user who had 5,000+ edits, would that make my evidence any more or less worthy or accurate?
2. You were obviously evasive on the LA Times issue, you were quite aware of the context, and specifically asked about it for a specific piece of information. Assuming you hadn't lost your "common sense and good editorial judgment", you should have been able to easily say "Yes, in this context, the LA Times should be a credible source", or less believably, "No I don't believe the LA Times is a credible source for this". Either way probably would have ended the discussion and avoided taking the issue to another forum for a ruling. Which of course found it to be credible (diff links to all this supplied previously, above). However, you would have had to disagree with a pro-Rawat editor to accept the legitimacy of the LA Times.
3. Interesting, that of the first 22 (more, but I only counted that far), only 1 was nominated, and he/she happens to be someone who supports your views and had the very same claims made during his review, as those claimed against you here.
4. Completely false . Jossi and I have had this conversation before on his talk page. There is no purpose to discussing my other edits on WP, I have stated above that this account is my sole interaction with Prem Rawat's sphere of articles, I will go one step further and say I have never edited any article that I am aware of who's subject was any religion/religious figure with any user account (or anonymously). I have read the link Jossi is referring to, and I am not in violation. An observation, Jossi sure has a penchant for pulling out WP policy when it suits his needs, goes further to my point about vexatious litigation above.

Evidence presented by user:Francis Schonken

My motivation:

1. Have a well-written article on Prem Rawat;
2. Do what I can to keep Misplaced Pages out of negative press.

Jimbo Wales' comment

Jimbo Wales' single known edit on the issue (diff) was divisive while it contained straw man argumentation (see discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 33#break 0). As such the edit was gefundenes fressen for yet another Cade Metz article (see link included in 4th paragraph of 'That's some catch, that catch-22' section at Why you should care that Jimmy Wales ignores reality: 'A great Wikipedian'). I don't like my name to be linked from some bad journalism, when this is the result of someone else's superficial comment (even if the 'someone else' is Jimbo Wales in this case). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Kim Bruning's role

Kim Bruning (talk · contribs) carefully negotiated with PatW to see his behaviour improved. It's quite possible to stand your ground in a civil fashion, after all. Would you be able to manage that? - PatW's reply: "Absolutely yes of course ... I am coming to realise that I have violated a number of rules here - eg 'soapboxing' which I only recently even heard of, and of course being occasionally horribly rude to Jossi and Momento. ..." 11:06, 11 March 2008

Misplaced Pages is not a vindicative system. I don't see any necessity to "prove" errors recognised by PatW, and for which he promised to improve. Was there uncorrected or incorrectible behaviour by PatW after this recognition (11:06, 11 March 2008)? --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Jossi's evidence on me

• "has injected himself in the dispute" - injected? Empty term, no evidence presented by Jossi.
• "disrupted editing" - What does Jossi mean? No clue, no evidence presented.
• "sabotaged the community enforced article probation" - No sign of me sabotaging anything. No evidence presented.
• "Francis Schonken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has tried to cast himself as a "neutral editor"" - I never did. You may find a diff that I state myself "relatively uninvolved" (while not really interested in the subject of the article), or that I think Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view of highest importance: casting myself as neutral - never, I don't even believe in that sort of stuff. Note that Jossi presents no evidence to support this point.
• "has failed to assist editors in the content dispute" - empty phrase. I took part in the content dispute, like anybody else. Apart from that, I assisted many editors, e.g. "Thank you so much, that is very helpful" (thx to Francis)
• "Rather than offer help he seems to have decided to take it upon himself to "fix" the article" - what sort of an allegation is that? No evidence presented. I edit the article. My talk page involvement more than doubles my mainspace edits for this article . No "wrong" is demonstrated.
• "Being bold is a good thing sometimes, but dismissing other editors as "POV pushers" is unhelpful, as it is edit-warring with them" - What kind of a conflation is this? Yes, I was bold, and am prepared to defend, if must on WP:IAR grounds, that I called POV pushers what they are. But why the incorrect conflation "... as it is edit-warring with them"? No evidence presented.
• "Evidence follows" - well, in fact it doesn't.
• "reverting to his last edit at the time" - Incorrect, and I already told Jossi so: "note that I used your version of the article of 31 January 2007 as the basis for my revert: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&oldid=104600180 " ()
• "Several editors, (involved editors and others as well) alerted him of the mistake he was making in deleting hundreds of contributions and losing many sources and material" - I've only seen Jossi giving that interpretation as far as I can recall, so diffs please (note: I checked my e-mails, and found nobody else that gives that interpretation).
• "The article was protected on Feb 9 due to the edit-warring" - I was not involved in the edit-warring that led to the Feb 9 protection, argument founded on guilt by association. Please provide the diffs that led to Feb 9 protection.
• "reverting a very unhelpful step in the consensus process" - with hindsight it wasn't all that unhelpful, but that's my interpretation. Anyway, the "uninvolved editor" did, as far as I can remember, not participate in the "consensus process". It was a drive-by revert. The qualification "Rather than offer help he seems to have decided to take it upon himself to "fix" the article" might apply.
• "Since returning to edit the article (Feb 8, 2008), Francis made 128 edits to Prem Rawat, 22 marked as minor edits. From the remaining 106 edits, 20 were reversions of other editors' contributions. diff" - What Jossi calls a "" is in no way what is described in Help:Diff.
• Re. #Francis Schonken sabotaged the community-enforced 1RR probation:
  • "Francis Schonken objected to the 1RR probation proposal , on the grounds that it it bends good guidance in all sort of directions in order to give POV-pushers an unjustifiable advantage." - I gave more reasons than that one.
  • "After the probation was implemented, he dismissed the probation on grounds of "wikilawyering" and "confusing wording"" - no diff given by Jossi. I don't think I implied that. As far as I can remember I commented on those who were spreading confusing wording and were embarking on wikilawyering. I may even have been commenting on those who built confusing wording into the probation formulation, that doesn't mean I "dismissed the probation" on whatever grounds.
  • Re. "First 1RR parole violation AN/I Report" - "restoring a fix (such as the ISBN numbers) will not be considered a revert in any case" "I would be very surprised if an editor here will go to ANI to report 1RR probation violation on such edits" (according to Jossi ). I was restoring a fix to the footnotes which had become severed from the sentences they were meant to be attached to.
  • Re. "Second 1RR parole violation AN/I report" - not more than one revert: "Consecutive reverts by one editor are generally treated as one revert for the purposes of this rule" (WP:3RR#What is a revert?)
  • Re. "The 1RR probation wording was unambiguous", no: "one revert per editor per day" is not the same as "If someone reverts your change, don't re-revert it" (which is "ZeroRR" on your own changes), see WP:1RR. Jossi exploited that ambiguity in the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive385#1RR on Prem Rawat, in order to obfuscate Momento's real breach of the 1RR probation with something that simply wasn't.
  • Re. "Francis as en experienced contributor should known by now the meaining of page probation, and what 1RR probation, means: If someone reverts your change, don't re-revert it, but discuss it with them (per Misplaced Pages:1RR)" - no, this was a scam based on a description of voluntary actions in an essay, that were in no way implied by the probation rules ("one revert per editor per day"). I exposed the scam: "So, no, this is not how 1RR is going to be used: allowing POV-pushers to perform an indefinite number of edits, and allowing other editors to revert only "one". This is a POV-pusher's scheme of unseen breadth."
• Re. #Francis Schonken takes a surprising lenient attitude towards WP:NPA - "There is no official policy regarding when or whether most personal attacks should be removed" (WP:RPA). My comment to PatW was entirely appropriate. See also discussion about removing PA's at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 33#Importing an outside conflict.
• Re. #Francis Schonken does nothing when asked to intervene in a BLP violation - A question was asked on the talk page. I answered it ("this has no place in the article on Prem Rawat") after Rumiton, PatW and Cirt , before Jossi's talk page refactoring . I didn't share Jossi's feelings about a need to refactor. Neither did any other editors apparently. There's no ArbCom issue about an interpretation made only by Jossi. And under no circumstances should Jossi attempt to commandeer me into performing a refactoring: I can think for myself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Scope

The scope of this arbitration case is the article Prem Rawat, and topics related to this subject, broadly defined. For example premie, a disambiguation page, edited multiple times by Jossi, but with his last edit to that page (15:09, 11 January 2008) he still forgets to mention that the term was used not only to indicate students of Prem Rawat, but for earlier followers of the DLM too, from the time it was still led by his father.

Prior discussions at various noticeboards

• WP:AN3#User:Momento reported by User:24.98.132.123 (Result: semi-protected) (initiated 6 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 22#User:Jossi and Prem Rawat (initiated 7 February 2008)
• WP:AN3#User:Momento reported by User:Cirt (Result: Blocked 24 hrs) (initiated 8 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive40#Prem Rawat (initiated 8 February 2008)
• WP:AN3#User:Momento reported by User:Francis Schonken (Result: 24 hours ) (initiated 12 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken (initiated 17 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive129#Slightly disruptive editing of Momento (talk · contribs) (initiated 19 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive128#Article probation - proposal (initiated 19 February 2008)
• WP:RS/N#Los Angeles Times as reference for Prem Rawat (initiated 26 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive130#Prem Rawat 1RR parole proposal (initiated 28 February 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive383#User:PatW (initiated 10 March 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive385#1RR on Prem Rawat (initiated 14 March 2008)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive386#Disruptive editing by user:Janice Rowe despite article probation (Prem Rawat again) (initiated 16 March 2009)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive386#1RR article probation violation by User:Francis Schonken (initiated 16 March 2008)

History of editing restrictions

(for the time being this list does not include periods of protection / semi-protection of the Prem Rawat article prior to February 2008, see Protection log, nor blocks before that period - where data are incomplete, or contain errors, I'd welcome anyone who can help to complete or otherwise improve - precise scope information not yet provided in this table for all listed restrictions: I suppose "Articles in category:Prem Rawat", per 1RR probation, would apply unless otherwise indicated, e.g. protections and semi-protections listed here thus far apply to the Prem Rawat article exclusively)

A personal attack by Jossi

(note: there were more personal attacks by Jossi, for the convenience of this case, and unless compelled, I will limit myself to a single example)(update: challenged by Jossi above in #@User:Francis Schonken, point 6, I sent additional evidence regarding my points below to the ArbCom mailing list):

• 23:48, 25 February 2008 Jossi wrote: "do not give me any BS about good intentions, , Francis";
• I've requested Jossi several times to remove that personal attack, and do so here again (see Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 31#Biographies of Living Persons where it is still included).
• My approach to PA's (well in line with relevant policies like WP:NPA) was discussed with Jossi at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 33#Importing an outside conflict. My approach hasn't changed since.
• Re. Jossi's "I have informed all editors, when needed, to respect Misplaced Pages's behavioral policies, such as WP:CIVILITY " - my contention is that Jossi warns others, but doesn't feel himself addressed by the same. In other words, Jossi's declaration on the point is unduly self-serving and tarnished by his own behaviour. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Analysis of history of editing restrictions

Despite a wide variety of applied editing restrictions (including a commendable number of self-imposed ones) over the last one and a half month, the result appears to be failing. Can we learn anything? A (thus far incomplete) analysis regarding some points:

1. Community-imposed probation referring to WP:ANI for enforcement seems to be failing in the short run: none of the four discussion sections initiated there after the start of the 1RR probation (1-2-3-4) received a clear answer from the community; after the second the community had already grown tired, and referred to ArbCom when the 3rd and 4th started nearly concurrently a few days later. All in all the first of these WP:ANI initiatives was the most successful: it negotiated a truce between PatW and Jossi, with clear commitments on both sides. However, the concurrent dialog at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 35#Jossi Fresco still 'A Great Wikipedian'? was probably no less instrumental in approaching a middle ground on that point (see above #Kim Bruning's role). The second (and in fact also the fourth) failed on an interpretation of "revert": a confusion which would be unthinkable at WP:AN3, which should have been indicated as the proper forum for "revert rule" disputes in the probation conditions. In general, for this ArbCom case, the point seems to be that proper treatment of "enforcement" (type and methods) seems indicated.
2. Despite a high number of self-imposed restrictions, something seems not to be working:
   • Jossi's self-imposed restrictions go further than anybody else's, yet his actions are still sometimes perceived as policing (see User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 35#Jossi Fresco still 'A Great Wikipedian'?). Jossi's role is ambivalent: exhorting others to be civil, trying to pull strings so that others remove PA's, but lacking some sensitivity as to setting the example himself (see #A personal attack by Jossi);
   • Some who might better apply self-restriction of some kind, do not seem inclined (Momento -blocked twice-, Nik Wright2 -his article editing was instrumental for the Feb 26 protection-, etc);
   • Some are restricting themselves w.r.t. edits to the article, and appear far too talkative on the talk page (PatW, see soapboxing allegations); edits to the article by others are experienced as problematic for a lack of talk page participation (Janice Rowe ).
   • Others are generally recognised for their qualitative edits to the article and earnest talk page participation, for whom no specific editing restrictions seem indicated: their background does not seem to hamper them at all (Jayen -clearly pro-Rawat-, Msalt -self-proclaimed webmaster of a gossipy website-, etc).

It seems very hard to draw general conclusions from this very varied 2nd point. Nonetheless attempting: maybe the important point is that appropriate self-disclosure on the talk page (like Msalt's, John Brauns',...) is a better recipe for creating an atmosphere of cooperation than convoluted self-restricted editing. Or put otherwise: let those who can not self-disclose appropriately on the article's talk page (for whatever reason, assuming that these may often be justifiable reasons), stay away from the Prem Rawat related articles, and not try to weigh on the content of these articles by whatever direct or indirect means. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.

Evidence presented by User:Matthew Stannard

Criticism of Prem Rawat

There was a well-produced page with a good set of citations providing criticism of Prem Rawat and his business model at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Criticism_of_Prem_Rawat&direction=prev&oldid=195507682. This page was originally set up by User:jossi in order to prevent criticism appearing on the Prem Rawat page itself. User:jossi was then involved in turning this into a redirect to the Prem Rawat page, without placing the criticism back on that page. This effectively resulted in the criticisms becoming hidden and lost to the type of reader who might be a likely prospect for Rawat's business. This story is told in some detail in the Register Article, which is well-researched, contains useful links to wikipedia diffs and should be read, I think, by anyone involved in this arb, particularly since that article has the propensity to bring wikipedia into considerable disrepute unless wikipedia arbitrators are seen to do something about the blatent POV-ineering that has so far been allowed to take place.

Removal of links to perfectly good and useful material

A much better story, in my opinion, of the pioneering phase of Prem Rawat's business than has ever appeared in wikipedia is provided at http://www.rickross.com/reference/vital/vital15.html, an article with a reference Sociological Review, 27, Page 279-296/1979, which I haven't checked but I've no reason to doubt its veracity, particularly since it gets an unlinked mention as Note 1 on the Prem Rawat page itself. A link to a page on the Rick Ross website, listing that Sociological Review Article was put on the Prem Rawat page but then removed, after User:jossi had made a contribution on the Prem Rawat talk page. The difficulty here is that the subscribers to Prem Rawat's services hold that any site that contains material that they don't like means that any link to anywhere on that site should be removed from wikipedia, regardless of whether a particular link is to something useful and informative. Hence User:jossi argues against Rick Ross in what is effectively an ad hominem attack, without taking account of the fact that the page linked to contains the material given in another reference on the Prem Rawat page (as I already mentioned).

The circularity of the discussion

Such circularity (repeated arguments) as is indicated on the Prem Rawat talk page between what I would suggest as representing, on the one side, secular, reasonable wikipedia contributors and, on the other side, those who overtly and covertly represent a POV in favour of Prem Rawat (in all cases, I would hazard, by being subscribers to Prem Rawat's services), is itself evidence that the neutral point of view sacred to the wikipedia project is being systematiclly abused by the latter group. This has been going on for years. My personal stance, if such be relevant, is that I am neither a subscriber nor an ex-subscriber to Prem Rawat's services, but I am conscious of the warning given by Richard Feynman that mind control is the most serious threat facing mankind, and when I see the victims of mind control desecrating the fine institution of wikipedia, which action is plain for all to see in the Prem Rawat article, I really feel that something should be done.

That subscribers to Prem Rawat's services wish to use wikipedia as part of their marketing campaign

This link shows that Jossi Fresco, aka User:jossi, acts as a press contact for Prem Rawat's marketing machine. To allow such a person to be a wikipedia admin and involved in the shameful controversy surrounding the the Prem Rawat page, and other pages in the category of the same name gives rise to a very bad smell. The fact that he may do good works at the same time should not distract you from analysing what he is really up to, and it doesn't stack up to acting in good faith, in my opinion. Just a small point on whether we can accept User:jossi's word. He says here that he has never used his admin privilege to ban anyone anywhere. This link shows that he did. Matt Stan (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by User:Jayen466

Deletion of the rickross.com external link

The rickross.com link referred to above by Matthew_Stannard (talk · contribs) was deleted by myself from the Prem Rawat and DLM articles – not because of Jossi's comment, but because I realised, after having linked to the site myself in another article, that it is in violation of WP:EL#Restrictions_on_linking. I discussed my concerns on the talk page, and Msalt (talk · contribs), considered neutral by all contributors to this article (I believe), concurred. Jayen466 22:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by User:Momento

Reply to user:Msalt

One Edit War Msalt has made three false assertions in this section that fundamentally distort what occurred.

1. I didn't delete Francis's paraphrase because it contained "mild criticism of Rawat with a scholarly source" .
I deleted Francis's paraphrase because, one, the lede is supposed to be a summary of the article not a place to give one side of the story. And two, Schnabel doesn't actually refer to Rawat's "public teachings" and Kent says only that one talk was "banal". Therefore Francis's paraphrase is inaccurate as well, which I explained in talk . Jayen466 also disagreed with Francis's one sided paraphrase and replaced it with a compromise version that gave important context .

2. Msalt claims Jayen466 "accidently re-installs Momento's version" when his summary "let's leave the analysis of his teaching out of the lede then" shows his removal of the analysis was deliberate.

3. Msalt claims I "reverted Francis" and gave a "misleading summary 'added context'” when I did not remove one word of Francis's one sided paraphrase but did, in fact, add sourced material for important context and balance.

Simply put, Msalt is prepared to make things up to attack me. Here he is stating that "Momento, you delete and add material 10 times every single day, usually with no discussion" . In fact, I made less than 20 edits in the week previous to that comment and 21 in the week before that . In the same period I made more than 150 posts to "Talk" and that's a 4 to 1, "talk" to "edit" ratio. No apology from Msalt. One Talk Page Thrash The photo failed on Copyright/not fair use grounds but I would still argue that inclusion in a BLP violates invasion of privacy, OR, verifiability, contact information and other grounds.

How to insert POV and, hopefully, not be caught

One of the major problems with the Rawat article and BLP's in general is that two editors can choose or tailor a source to suit their POV. All editors from both sides thought we solved the problem by relying almost entirely on academic works where scholars had summarized their findings. Since the Register article many editors are using newspapers as sources with predictable results.

1.WillBeBack summarized an article in the LA Times with this edit in the Rawat article . And, to express my concern at this type of editing, I wrote this summary in the talk page from the same article (last paragraph in green section but note Jayen466's opinion above mine). I believe neither version is acceptable in a BLP because BLP Policy says "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is a conjectural interpretation of a source . And "conjectural" means "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information", that is - making a summary of an article using only that portion of the information that suits your POV.

2.Here's an example where two articles about Rawat visiting UC Berkeley were written on successive days. Wowest simply picked the one that suited his POV. He used this article from the Daily Californian to make this edit ]. The following day's article in the Daily Califronian presented an entirely different POV . I believe using either article is unacceptable because they fail the fairness and balance needed for NPOV and for a BLP that is simply unacceptable.

Reply to user:PatW

I endorse everything Jossi said. PatW's sole contribution to Rawat articles is to abuse those he sees as pro-Rawat.Momento (talk) 03:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by User:Nik Wright2

Article ownership

Prior to publication of The Register article the WP Rawat articles were in a state of sustained ‘ownership’ WP:OWN. Ownership by its very nature is rarely demonstrable by quoting sets of diffs and Arbitrators are therefore referred to the volume of edits and talk page contributions specific to the Rawat articles, most notably by User:Jossi, User:Momento and User:Rumiton. User:Jossi has quoted above, his total contributions to Misplaced Pages, however the statistics relevant to this Arbitration are those related to the Rawat articles only. The issue is not simply the sheer volume of Jossi’s edits and talk page contributions from April 2004 ( Momento’s from 2006 and Rumiton’s from 2007) but the percentage of the totals made by these editors singly and collectively, compared to all other contributors. The ratios are even more stark when editors who have predominantly agreed with User:Jossi and who had/have little or no WP involvement other than with the Rawat articles, are removed from the calculation.

Prior to February 2006 the ‘agreeing editors list’ comprised the now inactive users 64.81.88.140, 24.21.194.205, and User:Zappaz, the first two were Rawat article ‘specialists’ while User:Zappaz did have some other WP interests. In addition three other editors who are still active, share the “Jossi consensus” User:Janice Rowe, User:Rainer P. and User:Armeisen; again their User contribution logs show that they are predominantly only interested in the Rawat articles. In January 2006 User:Jossi was joined in active WP:OWN by User:Errol Vieth and in February 2006 by User:Momento; User:Errol Vieth became inactive in December 2006; User:Jossi and User:Momento were joined by User:Rumiton in March 2007. Following publication of The Register article other editors arrived at the judgement that the Rawat articles were in urgent need of improvement. The difficulties related to the Rawat articles since the beginning of February 2008 can properly be characterised as a clash between those editors who are seeking to protect their ‘product’ of WP:OWN and those who are intent upon achieving a balanced and encyclopaedic article.

COI of editors

There have been frequent charges and counter charges by various editors for several years over the position of either current ‘students’ (followers) and of former followers of Rawat as editors of WP. The relevant part of WP:COI would seem to be: Examples/Close relationships ] Both current and former followers/students of Prem Rawat must be considered to be ‘caught’ by the “close relationship” provision of WP:COI, the only question is to what degree is the individual editor inhibited from working to NPOV. In this respect as ‘students’ of Prem Rawat both user:Rumiton and User:Momento are wrong to claim in their ArbCom statements that they have no WP:COI; User:Rumiton gives a clear statement of his COI on his User page ]

COI of Jossi

User:Jossi clearly is affected by WP:COI Examples/Close relationships, in addition he has a very specific COI related to his personal financial and career interests. When combined with culpability under WP:OWN, Jossi’s financial COI together with his COI Examples/Close relationships clearly brings WP:DUCK into play.

Religious affiliation of Sources and COI

A source of contention, which has been used in a manner of sustained disruption by pro Rawat editors, has been the issue of the religious affiliation (or claimed affiliation) of academic commentators upon Prem Rawat .See ]. This issue arose because in response to the use of reference to the the work of Ron Geaves it was pointed out that Geaves was not only a long term follower of Prem Rawat but was instrumental in Rawat becoming exposed to a western audience. In a ‘tit for tat’ response pro Rawat editors kept demanding that the religious affiliation of other academics must be made explicit or their work be excluded on the grounds of COI .

Geaves continues to assist in the public promotion of Rawat as per Film of Prem Rawat + Prof Ron Geaves of Liverpool Hope U & St Ethelburga’s and as such his work is a compromised source. Additionally Geaves is a source for other encyclopaedists such as Hunt, Barret and Chryssides, the latter of these has co-authored with Geaves while Barret is strongly associated with a Sociological perspective on New Religious Movements closely aligned to Geaves’ own. Geaves, Hunt, Barret and Chryssides have all been preferred in the WP:OWN editing of the Rawat articles over other references. See: ]

The combination of WP:OWN, and WP:COI together with the use of a compromised academic source aligned with a particular academic perspective raises very particular WP:NPOV issues. It would be expected that ] would resolve this, however the WP:OWN problems have involved consistent citing of ] as a basis for excluding references to research authorship.

Partial Administration

User:Jossi has chosen to be both editor and administrator to the Rawat articles, as an editor and talk page contributor he may be entitled to work from a partial perspective but as an administrator he must be expected to act impartially at all times; this he has not done. As evidence of a wider problem, Jossi’s respective treatment of User:Momento and User:PatW is useful to consider. User:Momento has a long history of uncooperative editing, only recently being properly sanctioned ] however User:Jossi, other than some rather mild ‘scolding’ has never threatened User:Momento with any sanction, and most tellingly given Jossi’s very active administration of the Rawat articles he makes no mention in his evidence here regarding Momento’s attrocious behaviour. In comparison User:Jossi singles out User:PatW for a full listing of his crimes. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Response to Other Users

IsabellaW

User:IsabellaW’s evidence has the appearance of web stalking rather than the ‘research’ that is claimed, and had he/she actually looked at Misplaced Pages rather than sources extraneous to this case, would have found my authorship of an article critical of Ron Geaves, to be acknowledge, on my WP talk page ] on Jossi’s talk page ] and both acknowledgements linked from the Prem Rawat article talk page]. Being critical of a ‘source’ is surely part of the necessary process of producing a sound article and I am puzzled that User:IsabellaW considers http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/geaves.htm to be problematic in the context of the Rawat articles. The WP article on Geaves is not currently at issue here but, I have never edited there, unlike Jossi who as a co-religionsist of Geaves might be consider to have a COI. It is notable that Geaves is critical of the authors Foss & Larkin and that Jossi has been resistant to including Foss & Larkin as a source in the Rawat articles ]. As User:IsabellaW has introduced criticism of Geaves as an “ideals balance, fairness and NPOV” issue into this case, the Arbitrators may wish to consider whether the WP article Ron Geaves should now become part of their material consideration. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Isabella W.

I have been doing research about Prem Rawat and his students, and about his detractors, and I have found valuable substantiated information which may be of interest in these proceedings.

I am not familiar in the rules of evidence of these proceedings, and I would be grateful for some guidance.

While Prem Rawat has been known to have students that were overly passionate about his teachings, his detractors also appear to be, at times, overly determined in their profile and actions. My research indicates that Prem Rawat has had for about 10 years a small group of active opponents/detractors who have repeatedly resorted to unethical and at times illegal methods to prevent him from sharing his message of peace, and to prevent people interested in this message to cultivate their interest.

The members of this fringe group appear to be the same people who are now battling here on WIKI on an effort to inject a negative bias into the Misplaced Pages entries about Prem Rawat.

This group at times, have manipulated the media. One of them from Bristol, UK, posting under the alias Andrew Carpenter, gave an interview to the leading Bristol Evening Post on June 17, 2003 and managed to get a full page cover article with his in silhouette to protect his anonymity (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-14218076.html). He claimed that he had discovered grave financial irregularities in the accounting of the Elan Vital UK Charity, which promotes Prem Rawats message of peace in the UK and that he had just filed a complaint with the UK Charity commission. He indeed filed a complaint with the charity commission, but the investigation found no wrongdoing by Elan Vital: the complaint was frivolous, the journalist was duped and Elan Vital was found by the Charity Commission to be in good compliance with rules and regulations. Similar fictitious tax complaints have been sent by this small group to regulatory authorities in India, Australia and more. In each and every case, they resulted in the complaint being dismissed by the authorities. This "Andrew Carpenter" also posted several "articles" in IndyMedia websites (http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/8160.shtml). There is evidence that this Andrew Carpenter is one of the active critics participating in this WIKI article with the user name Nik Wright2, (http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-india/2006-March/0322-d4.html) and has also published on anti-Rawat sites critical articles, under his real name. (http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/geaves.htm)

In 2001-2004, on the forum/chat room on the internet where they gather, they have made threats against Prem Rawat and his family. Some postings incited people to drug and kidnap members of Rawats family, to poison the water of the resort where he holds events, and even to broadcast false alerts that anthrax had been found in the conference hall. One posting even included a picture of a large butchers knife, saying it was intended for Prem Rawat (http://www.one-reality.net/hate_speech1.htm). The small group also published the private phone numbers and floor plans of Prem Rawats house, and more.

The current owner and managers of that forum are the two persons that appeared in The Register article (one is named here as John Brauns). Although they now moderate postings and edit comments by its members that may bring a criminal liability upon this forum or cross the line into hate speech, (they have learned that it does not serve their cause), their destructive obsession with the subject matter is still evident.

In October 2006, this group discussed publicly intentions to conspire against Misplaced Pages. For example, one of them posted: "the way for exes to deal with Wiki should be 'all or nothing. It would make sense if every forum member joined in the editing there, if only to make Jossi Fresco work for a living and discredit Rawat in the process. Just join in, add a phrase here and there, change or remove things that are false, add things that are missing, generally raise hell? I say just either dive in and edit the fu*cker silly, however you see fit, hit-and-run style, or leave well alone. But do it for fun, if you do it at all. Wiki is not as important as its editors would have us believe." This posting provides a sense for the intent of the members of this group. (http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/10027.html)

My sense, after conducting a lot of research, is that the topic of Prem Rawat attracts not just the mainstream but also people with polarized, extreme views, and threatening behaviors. It is important to not allow operatives of a handful of fringe detractors to take advantage of Misplaced Pages's name equity to lead their own, no-cost, self-serving campaign against Prem Rawat and his students. These people should instead use their own websites for that, where they can air their own grievances and critiques as much as they want, under our fair speech laws.

In light of the above, it is even more incumbent upon the arbitrators to uphold the WIKI standards and ideals and ensure that balance, fairness and NPOV prevails. IsabellaW (talk) 19:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

More evidence presented by Isabella W.

Some of persons posting against a fair article on Prem Rawat claim to be apostates and some appear to be apostates. Quite a bit of academic literature has been written about apostates and their reliability and credibility. Brian Wilson, a professor of Sociology at Oxford University, challenges the reliability of the apostates' testimony: according to him, “apostates are to be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to both his previous religious commitment and affiliations, the suspicion must arise that he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader.” Prof. Massimo Introvigne from CESNUR (www.cesnur.org) the Center for the Study of New Religions, distinguishes between three level of apostates: level 1, where the person exits the movement without any negotiation and in a manner that minimizes damage for both parties. level 2 is when the departure of the person involves negotiation, but there are no ill feelings left afterthat. Level 3 apostasy, according to Introvigne, is when the ex-member dramatically reverses his loyalties and becomes a  permanent enemy of the organization he has left, join a group fighting the movement, and often claims victimization. In light of the above, it appears that the group opposing Prem Rawat on the internet, and of which members are trying to shape the Misplaced Pages article, is made of Type 3 apostates, with all the related issues of limited credibility and ulterior motives.

For example, Gordon Melton. director of the Institute for the Study of American Religion and is a research specialist with the Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, said that when investigating groups, hostile ex-members invariably shade the truth and blow out of proportion minor incidents turning them into major incidents (http://www.hightruth.com/experts/melton.html)

 In addition to the ones previously mentioned, other persons from this apostates' group include: 1.  User:TGubler, from Brisbane, Australia, who admitted to stealing information from a computer belonging to a student of Prem Rawat that contained Elan Vital financial data and other personal data. (http://elanvital.com.au/faq/article.php?id=024) He was also found guilty of contempt of court, and sentenced to two months in prison.  2. User:John Brauns, User:Wowest, User:Sylviecyn aka User:Another Ex-Premie, User:Jim Heller, User:Nik Wright2 Note that an award winning investigative journalist in Australia, himself an interviewer of three Australian Prime Ministers, in an authenticated affidavit with the Queensland Supreme Court in 2005, acknowledged having been duped by this detractors group and stated: “The goal of the group are often obsessive, malicious, and destructive in nature. Through the use of the internet, they interfere with the rights of people to experience their own spiritual discovery and for the purpose of harassing individuals who are students of Rawat. The group’s actions have included contacting of employers of students of Prem Rawat, sending letters to regulatory agencies and the media with unsupported allegations and rabid personal attacks on the character of individuals. … and the internet publication of false and defamatory stories about Rawat designed to cast him in a false light.” (http://www.elanvital.org/faq/JMG_AFFIDAVIT.pdf) The affidavit signed by this reputable investigative journalist includes the names of several of the persons named in this arbitration. Another core person in this group also from Australia  (http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/neville2.htm), tried to disrupt a convention near Brisbane, and was later  arrested with $25Million of drugs—the largest seizure in the history of Queensland-- as well as unsecured and unlicensed firearms. (http://www.elanvital.com.au/faq/PDF/ackland_drug_bust.pdf) I also note that John Brauns removed the posting in which his small internet group was called to action and conspire against Misplaced Pages. Last time I checked this posting was there, but has just been removed. It was posted by a "Nigel" on  08/20/2006, 11:27:13. Maybe Mr. Brauns could check his backup or archives and confirm this.IsabellaW (talk) 03:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by 84.9.49.223

Summary and partial analysis of Isabella W's Evidence

With comments in brackets

• http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-14218076.html - Valid link providing independent confirmation that there was a complaint against Rawat in 2003. Contended that this complaint wasn't successful but no evidence presented to support that contention
• http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/10/8160.shtml - Valid link to interesting and informative article headed The Three Faces of Prem Rawat. Isabella claims that Andrew Carpenter wrote several articles in this vein but only cites one of them. (It would be interesting to see the others too)
• http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-india/2006-March/0322-d4.html - Valid link to a postings site where people argue about who Nik Wright and Andrew Carpenter are. Someone called Nik Wright posts a denial but who can tell whether that is the "real" Nik Wright
• There is the useful contention that John Brauns moderates postings on his ex-premie websites, thereby preventing them being hate forums. (Well done, John!)
• http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/10027.html - bad link, ostensibly to support notion that there had been exhortations to gang up in wikipedia. Nothing verifiable to support this
• http://www.one-reality.net/hate_speech1.htm - valid link to a discussion between people who really do seem to hate Prem Rawat. (Interesting that there should be such venom posted about someone who only promotes inner peace. Isabella's "researches" don't indicate what went wrong)
• Isabella asserts "It is important to not allow operatives of a handful of fringe detractors to take advantage of Misplaced Pages's name equity to lead their own, no-cost, self-serving campaign against Prem Rawat and his students." (Indeed, but a disinterested researcher might be curious to find out about the existence and rationale of such people. Isabella doesn't throw much light on this.)
• Isabella asserts "My sense, after conducting a lot of research, is that the topic of Prem Rawat attracts not just the mainstream...". No evidence presented that the topic of Prem Rawat attracts the mainstream. (Why would it?)

84.9.49.223 (talk) 13:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by User:Msalt

One Edit War

Forgive a detailed look at the edit war behind the second revert in Jossi’s 2nd 1RR ANI report on Francis . It illustrates the dynamic well:

- Momento deletes mild criticism of Rawat with a scholarly source under edit summary “(As per talk "Lede")” .
- Francis reverts “Undid revision 198191994 by Momento (talk) misunderstanding: read talk page again”
- Momento reverts, “Deleted according to BLP. See talk ‘The Lede’” ;
- revert by LAWRENCE ;
- compromise by Jayen466 ;
- self-revert by Jayen466 per talk accidentally reinstalls Momento’s version ;
- reverted by Francis to LAWRENCE’S with honest summary ;
- reverted by Momento with misleading summary “added context” ;
- reverted by Francis with other changes (“undid revision by Momento”) ;
- reverted hours later by Janice Rowe with misleading summary (“This is a better, more accurate revision”).

One Talk Page Thrash

Pro-Rawat editors wanted to remove a picture of Rawat's home for POV reasons (its extravagance emphasized his wealth) and pursued this private interest over Misplaced Pages's interests (a neutral page). Note how their arguments and policy reasons change as they fail (in 5 separate talk threads mercifully refactored by Francis) but the goal remains the same. Overall thread . Momento and others were edit-warring throughout despite then-ongoing IfD DR -- warned defiant ):

1) Invasion of privacy (Momento)
2) Verifiability (Jossi)
3) Self-published (Jossi)
4) Wrong house (Momento , Armeisen )
5) Public record that includes personal details (Momento)
6) Unsourced (Momento)
7) L.A. Times not a reputable source (Armeisen)
8) Copyright / not fair use. This argument, raised elsewhere, finally stuck after DR (and I supported deletion )

Tendentious Editing by User:Momento, User:Rumiton and User:Janice Rowe

Overview

3 pro-Rawat SPA editors involved in essentially every edit war acknowledge strong ties to the subject -- long-time devotees Momento ( in answer to ) and Rumiton ("as a practicing premie" , plus and ), and recently Janice Rowe, (“I know several followers of Prem Rawat”  ; coy about herself.) They are supported by a number of less frequent editors such as User:Rainier P. ("when I joined the ashram") and User:Armeisen ("I've practised knowledge since I was 22. ... I want people to respect Rawat if they benefit from his teaching").

Tag-Teaming

Momento openly brags about "editing while blocked” soon after 12 Janice Rowe article edits in 45 minutes . These are her first edits since October 6, 2005 .

Disrespectful replies by Momento to warnings, blocks and refused unblocks from admins

To Vassyana to Vassyana to Lawrence to B to Sandstein to Will Beback

They reject consensus and collaboration

Out of many examples:

Momento:
1) repeatedly deleted an image during IfD without comment against consensus even after neutral editor establishes that BLP does not justify removal ].
2) After very picky complaints including "Hunt doesn't say 'critics alleged', Hunt says 'critics have focused on'" Momento says "I am not going to spend my time repairing other editors distorted and inappropriate edits. I'm going to delete them.” and s/he did , line 68.
3 ) "I will not accept anything less than 'always denied.'"

Janice Rowe:
1)She reverts several edits with at once, possibly to avoid 1RR violation technically, with summary "Too many changes to be able to follow them" .
2) Reverts 7 of my relatively uncontroversial edits, with misleading edit summary (describing 1 of the 7) and refuses to discuss on Talk. On her user page, says "I disagree with your edits. It's that simple."

Rumiton:
1) discussing scholarly sources: "Well sourced, Andries, means, among other things, unbiased. None of your miserable Dutch Protestants, no Catholics or Lutherans, no Buddhists even. No members of competing theologies."
2) "There are no 'comparatively unbiased' editors here... We have no choice now but to keep contesting."

Note: I am continuing to assemble evidence and will present it ASAP. This is hard! Msalt (talk) 18:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Cla68

Reason why Jossi shouldn't be allowed to participate even on the talk pages on the Rawat articles

• Selectively archives portions of the Rawat talk page
• Edits the Rawat article after his promise not to do so any longer because of his COI issues; reverts the deletion of pro-Rawat, problematic source material and deletes a link to an anti-Rawat website .

Off-wiki evidence of Jossi's significant pro-Rawat POV

• Beginning in February 2007, Jossi attempted to post a sanitized version of the Prem Rawat article to Citizendium, first by directly copying over the Misplaced Pages version of the article then by removing material from the Misplaced Pages version that he apparently objected to
• Jossi then adds more pro-Rawat information to the article, and reverts an attempt by another Citizendium editor to identify Jossi as having a related-COI (called Topic Informant on Citizendium)
• Another Citizendium editor then notices what Misplaced Pages editors have noticed, that the article as written by Jossi has significant sourcing and POV problems .
• Larry Sanger agrees that the Rawat article and Jossi's conduct with relation to it are problematic and comments on the Rawat talk page .
• On a Rawat-related article that Jossi has written, Jossi removes an edit that he doesn't apparently, approve of
• Sanger reads the Register article, apparently confirming his suspicions that Jossi has an unacceptable level of COI and POV concerning the Rawat articles, and moves the articles from main space to development space .
• Jossi gives up and leaves Citizendium (Note: if only it was this easy in Misplaced Pages. Sanger and Jimbo apparently have different management styles.)

Although Jossi could have edited about any subject on Citizendium, he chose Rawat. Why? Because apparently his purpose for participation in Misplaced Pages, Citizendium, or most any other place is to promote the Rawat religion and ensure that everything said about Rawat is as positive as possible. If Misplaced Pages is serious about its credibility, Jossi represents a classic example of someone we need to prohibit from editing certain articles or article discussions for COI reasons.

Evidence presented by PatW

My User Page (to illustrate was not intended as 'soapbox')

• User page started 7 April 2006 with declaration of intent
• One year later I added this
• Feb 2008 added this
• Mar 2008 blanked Talk Page as per this advice

Please see all Talk contents here. The arguments on this page are continuations from Prem Rawat Discussions page (so as not to disrupt those discussions). They are not deliberate soapboxing but arguments that were germane to the article. I defend this here and exemplify here and here.

Contention

For many the contention that Prem Rawat has a revisionist agenda here is hard to deny. They say 'history is written by winners'. In Misplaced Pages are winners those who are supported by the most wealth (with most time & commitment)? Jossi is a self-confessed current employee 'of a related organisation' (presumably The PremRawat Foundation' or 'Elan Vital') and was certainly past web-master for Prem Rawat, whose wealth is not disputed.

My 'diatribes' have been criticised for being 'too lengthy'. Put that down to me not being 'A Renaissance Man' like Jossi, but merely a historian of a rather more old-fashioned style. I have been thanked by many people for my contributions and for challenging Jossi, Momento and Ruminton's spin on the past.

"I have been following your posts on Misplaced Pages...Most of my adult life has been as a premie...but I feel the revisionism that is going on is outrageous. I was very much around in those years that are being revised and my memories are so different. It was a brilliant time and I loved it and can see no reason to cover it up....this was a big chunk of my life that is being told in untrue way"

I observe Jossi and Momento driving reasonable voices from talk Pages associated with Prem Rawat through persistent passive-aggression.Their tireless resistance simply wears down patience. Their combined arguing style amounts to filibustering and frustrating consensus. There is public amazement that Misplaced Pages tolerates someone so clearly conflicted being an administrator on the PR article.

When I accused Jossi and Momento of being 'horrible liars' I unwisely chose to call a spade a spade. The Rawat discussion page is full of outright lies to which sometimes the only response is to say as I have done: "I was there, you were not - what you are saying is completely untrue" as illustrated in the last few days here and in the previous thread here. My involvement from the outset (April 2006) was civil and constructive. Over the next 3 years the 'elephant in the room' for most people was mainly Jossi's perceived COI. I became increasingly frustrated.

My involvement with Prem Rawat article from April 2006 was constructive but always resisted by 'Premies'

• 5 days after I arrive Jossi rails against so-called 'ex-premie' group.
• I begin politely commenting on the Criticism Section
• Momento attacks 'ex-premies'
• I respond by edits
• My first warning on 15th for this.
• April 2006 I make a number of edits. I become frustrated at resistance from Momento and ask Vassayana to intervene.
• Here Jossi ignores Momento's attacks but warns me.
• 19 May 2006: Jossi removes neutrality warning
• 20 May 2006 Momento moves to remove critical POV
• 3 July 2006 I point out: Momento has over-ridden P.Jacobi's neutral advice.
• 10:24, 29 July 2006 Jossi refactors Andries' evidence from Talk Page
• 4 Nov 2006 Jossi accuses Tgubler of COI
• 10 November 2006 Jossi's condescending manner to TGubler: "I am very familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, TGubler, so spare yourself the trouble....You have "discovered" nothing, TGubler. ...by using words like "bullying' so that you can slap an NPOV tag. Well, I am not going to give you the benefit of that. If you consider a civil discussion to be "bullying" you are on for a rough ride ...This for the nthtime, TGubler"
• 04:51, 10 November 2006 Gubler responds "I am not trying to escalate anything. I believe you are the one using inflammatory language and bullying and hectoring tone. I have discovered a range of new source material in the respected mainstream press and you seem to be trying to prevent any of these being used. My apologies if I misunderstand you."
• 26 Dec 2006 Momento tries to excise Bob Mishlers criticism from article
• 19 January 2007 Smee commends F.Schonken for fairness.
• My next contribution isn't until feb 2007 with this comment re RFC invoking this response: "PatW is 100% correct and every1 who reads this page shold read what PatW says to understand what is going on hear"
• Momento 19:49, 13 February 2007: "Who's the liar PatW" Jossi replies: "I would suggest, Pat, that you remove your personal attack from your comments above. These are not only not helpful, they are in violation with Misplaced Pages policy. I have placed a warning in your talk page." To Momento: "Please keep your cool and do not respond to the obvious provocation."
• 01:07, 17 February 2007 "I have a potential conflict of interest as I am employed by a related organization, and hence my disclosure." Jossi.
• Momento's argument that there should be no negative material prompts this from Mael Num "Do you know what a straw man argument is? Because this whole spiel you replied with is a perfect example".
• Feb 2007 Jossi argues that ex-premie critics are irrelevant
• March 2007 MaelNum starts to pin Jossi down to being more open to consensus and questions Jossi's style. I back him up
• I argue that the use of Cagan's book is one-sided
• 11 March Article fails GA Review with cynical reaction from Momento
• Momento uses this as an opportunity to pare out all the stuff he doesn't like. I attempt to point this out saying: "You are STILL cherry-picking information to suit your POV and sadly Vassayana doesn't seem to see that.
• Sylviecyn and I cannot keep up with Momento's "bulldozing"
• 28 March 2007 My argument to refer to some primary sources eg. DLM magazines available in many libraries and some reproduced on internet) is affirmed as appropriate by Vassayana - there's no agreement from J and M.
• By 3rd April I am pretty much the only opposing voice to Jossi and Momento (apart from Sylviecyn) and I write: "I feel it's unfair here. Kind of like you and Momento are 'filibustering' ie playing for time... creating a disturbance to draw attention away from my points and concentrate on irritating me with 'straw man' arguments to the point of me committing the deadly crime of being mildly rude. If no-one can be bothered to more intelligently address my arguments then I consider I'm wasting my time. Whatsmore your perpetual officious, humourless reprimands amount to plenty of bad faith and baiting from your direction. That's the way it feels and would like to know whether that's the way it looks to more impartial people. So far nobody has read the dialogue that escalated into my rude comment. Isn't it a little premature to accuse me of being the only culprit in this matter? Also as I said I am waiting to see how you guys resolve the issue of the Collier quote. If I think there is any more 'filibustering' I'm giving up on this article."
• April 22 07 I protest that Jossi gives me warning and not Momento
• 23 April - Vassayana returns and I request that he/she read the full arguments about why the article is so dishonest
• 25April 2207 frustration at Vassayanas not adressing arguments but only trying to mediate rather generally.
• By 27th I was ready to throw in the towel: 'Is there some sort of official mediatator we can call upon?'
• 27th April 2007 Momento continues to revert my edits without discussion
• By May 9th 2007 Jossi was on my Talk Page deleting links to excerpts from scholar Downtons book (reproduced on www.ex-premie.org) which I thought Vassayana might be interested to peruse. "For anyone interested here is where you can read Downtons actual material. Momento provided this link on my user page then for some reason Jossi deleted the link." PatW 21:50, 9 May 2007
• "I deleted it because it is a copyright violation. Deleted again." ≈ jossi ≈ 22:21, 9 May 2007
• 10th May 2007 Momento continues to paraphrase quotes to suit his POV.
• 12 May 2007 Momento proposes his own re-write of the article. I am characterised as a complainer.
• 11 May 2007 We are invited to point by point go over Momento's rewrite - an impossible task
• 10:49, 14 May 2007 Rumiton's comment: "I think sincerity goes over your head Pat." is ignored by Jossi.
• At this point I take a break not to return until 22nd August 2007
• 15 May 2007 Jossi accuses Sylviecyn as having equal COI to him - she explains the difference:
• 17 May 2007 Jossi threatens to report Sylviecyn to WP/ANI for harassment and disruption
• Vassyana 12:38, 26 May 2007 "In its current state, it is even worse than when I first reviewed the article."
• 29 July 2007 Vassayana reproves Jossi for using failed Mediation case to impugn Andries.
• 22 Aug 2007 I return to debate Rawat's teachings. Am immediately attacked by Ruminton and Jossi "pompous, long-winded, pseudo-intellectual rants' 'engaging in polemics does not do anything for this article other than escalation, bad feelings, and frustration' etc.
• 14 Sept 2007 Jossi archives John Brauns discussion for 'soapboxing' "You are crossing a line you should not."
• 24 November 2007 Newbie 'Eigermonk' is straightaway cautioned by Jossi "Your personal testimony has no place in an encyclopedic article. You can express your opinions in a personal web page or a blog, but not here."
• 19:49, 24 November 2007 Jossi continues with sarcastic welcome to Andries: "You again? Welcome back..."
• 25 November 2007 Momento 'bites the newconmer' - "Eigermonk, since you have no understanding of Wiki and no desire to learn, I will not bother you with further explanations". Momento (talk) 20:23, 25 November 2007
• 15:39, 29 November 2007 Jossi accuses Sylviecyn of 'raising hell'
• 17:17, 12 December 2007 I criticise Momento and Ruminton for contrived summarising.
• 6 February 2008 Due to Cade Metz article Momento is subjected to a deluge of criticism from new people.

'It also looks like a whitewash. You can't just revert to a no criticism version if there is in fact significant criticism. Undue weight does not mean delete, but reduce.' David D. (Talk) 20:00, 6 February 2008 "It's a well-documented fact -- that Rawat claimed to be the Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe, who encouraged followers to surrender everything to him as their object of devotion. It's inexcusable to leave this historical fact out of the article." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.142.2 02:05, 8 February 2008

• Guarding an article by deleting all criticism is not policy at wikipedia."
• "This article as it stands is doing a great deal of harm to the credibility of Misplaced Pages." Sarcasticidealist (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
• "We have had suggestions above, from those I guess to be followers of Rawat, that any criticism from members of other faiths cannot be included because it's biased. That's bullshit and unworkable, I've taken a look at Criticism of Prem Rawat's article history, and that included sourcing from religious scholars. The redirect's edit summary showed "Revert according to Wiki policy on verifiability/foreign language sources" as a reason for essentially deletion, but there is no policy against foreign language sources, and the sources can be easily verified. If Prem Rawat started a religion, and proclaims himself as lord of the universe, then some criticism of the religion will inevitably fall back onto Prem Rawat. I've seen "do no harm" quoted above, but a whitewashing of the subject does even more harm to the project and to the readers." - hahnchen 18:01, 7 February 2008
• Deletion of any critical commentary deeply disturbing
• Also Disturbed
• "What a ridiculous whitewash the article is." "I was obliterated within minutes and warned by jossi that I was going to get banned after a slew of absurd "verifiable" arguments which held absolutely no water. These editors are rabid defenders of this guy." Onefinalstep 23:00, 8 February 2008
• "There's really another article called Criticism of Prem Rawat, but the only link to it comes in the infobox at the bottom of the page? And people are alright with that?.....Lame". 90.187.55.29 (talk) 13:25, 8 February 2008
• I join in on Claims of Divinity
• 10 Feb2008 Jossi's declaration of intent.
• Permission to assume Momento is a hostile editor
• Momento carries on upsetting people
• Proposal for Momento to be blocked
• 11 February 2008 John Broughton questions NPOV
• Will Beback 22:28, 11 February 2008 'Momento, I think you are misreading WP:NPOV.'
• This latest series of edits by Momento seems to use selective quoting in a weasel wording style.
• I complain of Momento's weasely changing of original wording of quote and accuse Jossi of turning a blind eye. Long discussion ensues where I am told to 'take deep breaths'. Msalt comments: "Yes, PatW is showing a bit of emotion here, but so are the three people arguing against him, and to my eye his comments are more respectful and less personal than yours, Memento's and Jayen's."
• Ruminton accuses me "I find that the material you just inserted to be a most disreputable tactic in this debate, guilt by association" when I reply to Jayen.
• Jossi defends Prem Rawat vanity publication.
• Francis Schonken argues Jossi's reading of BLP is flawed.
• This is mainly Jossi defending his view of BLP to exclude links that are critical.
• Jossi again accusing me of personal attacks: "You have been warned already, several times for personal attacks." Msalt replies 07:01, 21 February 2008 "I also think PatW has a fair point that his mention of COI was not really a personal attack the way you describe it." "As you note, the proof of COI is in the pudding (of an editor's actions, to butcher a metaphor) and I don't think it's unfair to describe Momento in particular as someone who appears to be consistently editing in the service of a private interest rather than the Wiki project. Are we not allowed to point out that elephant in this room?"
• Jossi 15:06, 21 February 2008 Totally unsolicited poke at me: "I invite you to to take people like Wowest, PatW and all others abusing this page to account for blatant personal attacks."
• Jossi archives my post for being 'off-topic'
• 15:26, 23 February 2008 Jossi accuses Francis Schonken of taking sides and continues to chastise me "PatW, for a person that has abused this page, you have some chutzpah to come here and speak of disruption of others".
• 11:44, 28 February 2008 Ruminton tries to insert lie: "perhaps we should point out that Prem Rawat has never practised or advocated renunciation.."
• 14:26, 29 February 2008 I refer to response to VivK on my Talk Page (politely continued there): "With regard to my discussion with Rumiton and VivK above. I have posted a response from a current follower of Prem Rawat (who was at the Alexander Palace meeting referred to above) called Tim Hain here: Letter from Tim Hain in response to VivK (and Ruminton) I thought it best to put it on my Talk Page rather than in here." PatW (talk)
• 03:37, 27 February 2008 "Imagine you were left to finish this article on your own or maybe with help from Momento... do you think it would be an unbiased article when you'd finished?" PatW
• Jossi's curt refusal to answer:"Not interested, PatW."
• Refer to Prem Rawat's own personal webpage where he proclaimed descent from a list of Indian Gurus. I knew Jossi had authored this page and asked: "Why is it suddenly not important to describe a self-proclaimed Perfect Master's beliefs about how and where his Knowledge came down to him? 12:54, 2 March 2008 In this thread I ask "Jossi please would you tell us when this website last had this info please?" Jossi ignored my question.
• 20:45, 8 March 2008 Jossi tries to shut down important argument for this reason: "There are numerous archives in which this was discussed."
• 16:06, 9 March 2008 and then archives my link to ex-premie.org with this: "Are we going to continue allowing the misuse of these pages for soapboxing?" How many times needs PatW be warned about the misuse of talk page discussions?"
• I raise objection on Wales' page (soliciting comment from Kim Bruning on Jossi not addressing issue in situ)

Reply to user: Jossi

Above here Jossi quotes me as making this comment to Momento after the peer review:

So you agree with "everything Vassyana wrote"? You really are stretching the boundaries of belief there. Could that possibly be a cynical comment? Let's get this straight because your words and actions so far suggest quite the opposite.

In fact Momento had said he agreed with everything Vassayana wrote and I was challenging him on this. Jossi above conveniently omits to include my next sentences which listed Vassayana's comments which plainly ran contrary to Momento's beliefs - otherwise surely he and Jossi would not have been so keen to submit the article for a 'Good Article' merit. Judge for yourselves whether Jossi is fairly representing my meaning. Here is what I actually wrote:

So you agree with "everything Vassyana wrote"? You really are stretching the boundaries of belief there. Could that possibly be a cynical comment? Let's get this straight because your words and actions so far suggest quite the opposite. Please don't play games with us here. Please confirm that you really agree that:


• this article spends a lot of time on fawning over the subject and his POV.
• the criticism section was simply tacked on to appease complaints, without balancing the tone and sources for the rest of the article.
• for such a controversial figure, the overall balance between positive POV and critical views is way off.

• the criticism section is very neutral in tone, while much of the article is written from a very positive POV.
• disturbing ...use of antagonistic sources to support pro and simple fact claims.
• This is 'dishonest to say the least.'

• including "anti" sources to support a claim of NPOV is a dishonest presentation of the use of those sources. By failing to use sources in their proper context, a casual reader is easily mislead.

• negative information from other sources used is also notably absent from the article.PatW

(from 11 March Article fails GA Review with cynical reaction from Momento) PatW (talk) 02:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Will Beback

I am travelling and will not be able to participate in this arbitration case until after April 1. If the case is still active at that time I hope to contribute. Will Beback NS (talk) 06:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Sylviecyn

I had prepared another statement with some links and diffs but have decided to not to post it in strong protest of IsabellaW's comments on this page. This is the last time I’m willing to tolerate any use of Misplaced Pages by followers of Prem Rawat to defame me.

Some background: This is the second time in two weeks IsabellaW has posted her so-called "research" that includes a link to a premie website that uses the real names of former Rawat followers (ex-premies) including photos, to defame them (myself included). The first time IsabellaW posted her libellous garbage was on March 11th on the Prem Rawat talk page. See diff. For your information, the only people in the world who accuse former followers of being a hate-group are the current followers of Prem Rawat, and his supporting organization, Elan Vital on its websites. What IsabellaW has posted isn't evidence of anything, nor is it rearch by any stretch of the imagination. I want it removed from this page and the Prem Rawat talk page.

The owner of the website IsabellaW cited, called "One-Reality.net," is Misplaced Pages user Gstaker, who also was the "John Doe" defendant in a California defamation lawsuit, the settlement of which required him to remove all defamation material and photos of San Francisco Attorney Marianne Bachers, who was the plaintiff in the matter. Jossi Fresco was a subpoenaed witness in that matter. The link to that website remains on the Gstaker user talk page, although Staker had been sternly warned by Vassyana last summer to remove it, after I complained then. See GStaker. By the way, while you're there, take a good, long, hard look at the history pages and diffs of Gstaker’s talk pages, just to give you a sense of the type and style of personal attacks I've been subjected to on Misplaced Pages by the devotees of Prem Rawat, with no action or reaction by Jossi Fresco, other than to warn me on my talk pages not to threaten legal action and to watch what I say. I’m not planning legal action now, nor am I threatening it. I simply want the defamation of my name removed from Misplaced Pages and I want it removed now. This is a very serious matter that has gone on long enough.

If anyone wants to ask me questions about this, please feel free to do so on my userpage or on the discussion page of this ARB. Thank you. Sylviecyn (talk) 01:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Evidence presented by {your user name}

before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person

{Write your assertion here}

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.