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This page is not a forum for general discussion about incest. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about incest at the Reference desk.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Covert incest

I moved this to its own article. If it is notable enough to be in Misplaced Pages it can certainly be expanded. Since it's not a type of incest, it really doesn't need to be here. The way, the truth, and the light 22:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Exotics and inbreed

It's often heard, that the appearance of incest and inbreading is extremely high in circles of Asian and African immigrants in (Northern-)European countries. One of the, if not the, reason for this is, that the racial and cultural gap between Europeans and these immigrants is unnaturally big. In case other users know (scientifical) sources concerning this matter, after mentioning them, this item might be added to the article. James Blond 10:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Asians are not exotic! How are they exotic you racist bastard! Punkymonkey987 18:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Cause(s) of incest/inbreed

In this article the conclusion is mentioned, that with animals inbreed only occurs in extremely unnatural situations, such as having to live together in the same cage for years. This can be regarded as an indication, that it's about the same thing, that brings people to inbreeding incest. If they would live their natural live, which implicates, that they would stay in their own kind of biotope and use only natural food, they wouldn't come to such a perversion; on the contrary, they would be as averse of it, as (other) animals are in principle. .

Here as well goes, that if there are more scientific sources known, this item might be added to the article. James Blond 14:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

External Links

Checked all the references. Removed three: one dead link, one link to an essay without author/source information, one link to an unpublished and very short essay on a therapist's website. Reformatted the remaining references, including four published articles and a statistical study. ZeroZ 07:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Under the "Forms of incest" section, sub section "Sibling incest between children," there is a quote that "10-15% of college students had childhood sexual experiences with a brother or sister." I found this really, really hard to believe, so I checked out the referenced website. Despite my concerns, the site seemed legit, and I found the source of the information without trouble. However, this cited quote is followed by an uncited: "only 5-10% of those included intercourse; and therefore most probably represent a form of child sexuality." Now, I have no evidence that any of this is not true other than my personal misgivings, but I move that we should remove that second quote until we can get a proper citation. I just am in disbelief that the percentages are this high. Nothing to do with religion, politics, etc. I just assumed that this was far more rare than these quotes claim, and I'd especially like cited evidence on the second claim. Am I just being silly here? Thoughts? Clemenjo 10:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Support Organizations

I was not the one who removed links to support organizations (they had already been removed, and the "enough of this" comment was already up). In fact, unless deleting them was a consensus decision, my vote is to keep such links, after checking to ensure the validity of each. ZeroZ 21:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's why I did it. People kept adding links to support organisations, and I feared that the list would become a mere directory, or used for spamming one's own organisation. I have no objection to having a few links to large and important organizations, but I think they should be discussed first. The way, the truth, and the light 22:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The links in question

I don't see why these shouldn't be here. I could understand if it were a list of links about party favors or something, but this issue is so serious and so devatating to so many people that I think that they should all stay. We should at the very least keep those that serve specific communities or survivors of a certain type. Joie de Vivre 00:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• RAINN Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network National, toll-free hotline for victims of sexual assault: 1-800-656-HOPE
• VOICES in Action Victims Of Incest Can Emerge Survivors, an international organization providing assistance to adult and adolescent victims of child sexual abuse and trauma.
• The Awareness Center, Inc. The Jewish Coalition Against Sexual Abuse/Assault (JCASA)
• Making Daughters Safe Again Online resources for mother-daughter incest survivors.
• SASIAN Sibling Abuse Survivors Information and Advocacy Network
• SIA Survivors of Incest Anonymous World Service Office, Inc. links many independent SIA 12-step support groups around the world.
• Pandora's Aquarium An online support group, message board, and chat room for survivors of sexual violence, including incest, and their supporters.
• After Silence, A non-profit organization, message board, and chat room designed to support survivors of incest, rape, and molestation.

RAINN - national network. VOICES, another large organization. JCASA is specifically Jewish. MDSA - mother-daughter abuse. SASIAN - sibling abuse. Pandora's and After Silence, both are active message boards. I suppose we could trim the last two but as they are both non-commercial resources I don't see a reason to. Joie de Vivre 01:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I think people needing this kind of service will be looking somewhere other than Misplaced Pages. Nonetheless, per your explanation, I restored all but the last two (which were also the two that I suspected of being spamming.). The way, the truth, and the light 01:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It's true that lots of people will just search on Google. But here's something to think about: incest makes people feel ashamed. Really ashamed. It makes people feel like their deepest, darkest secrets were published on the front page of the New York Times this morning... every single day. They feel like everyone knows, they feel vile and exposed and filthy. So a survivor seeking information might feel too ashamed to just out-and-out type in "incest resources" into Google. However, they might not feel too ashamed to approach "academic research" on incest. They might be able to avoid the shame by considering it a research topic, and what better resource supply helpful links than our great encyclopedia? Joie de Vivre 01:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly new to Misplaced Pages and trying to learn from more unexperienced editors. This is my first comment on a discussion page and I hope it will be of some value. Misplaced Pages is not a directory and its true identity should be preserved. However, the incest article has replaced RAINN Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network as the #1 Google hit for "incest" (and rape), so victims do and will stumble across this article when trying to find support and someone to talk with. I'm familiar with the subject we are discussing, which is why I try to monitor articles related to sex crimes, add information to them and revert vandalism as quickly as possible.

As Joie de Vivre pointed out, we should at the very least keep one or two resources that serve specific communities or survivors and that offer different information and services, while trying to avoid recourses with duplicate content. For example, RAINN Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network covers pretty much the same topics that the The Awareness Center, Inc. and VOICES in Action do, but more extensively. If we were to delete a resource or two, perhaps it should be a resource covering the same topics of one previously added. Instead, the exclusion of the last two links (which happen to be the two largest and most active support groups for victims of sexual violence on the internet) leaves the article with a number of resources offering the very same information but without a single resource for victims seeking to talk and reach out (as soon as they have finished reading the article, if they wish).

As way to prevent merely self promoting intentions, I suggest checking the profiles and contributions of these adding new links. Spamming intentions can be unmasked quite easily by looking at profiles (or lack of) and contributions. Has the person contributed to other articles on Misplaced Pages, has he or she taken the time to revert vandalism and add information, or has she/he merely added a link? In good faith, I re-added an active (non-profit, non-spamming) support group, After Silence,, where victims can find immediate help and support. Searching for Orion 05:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I understand your argument. It didn't occure to me that people find us through Google, but I guess they do. Perhaps we should distinguish the two types of support links in separate sections? The way, the truth, and the light 05:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"Support Organizations for Survivors" is a description that seems appropriate for resources like RAINN as well as support groups like After Silence. Perhaps we could distinguish them by placing RAINN (and similar resources) under National organizations for survivors and After Silence (and similar) under Support organizations for survivors? Searching for Orion 06:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to rearrange them according to whether they are national. The only one I recognized as national was RAINN. Joie de Vivre 13:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I think it is important to have some abuse resources on here. I understand that Misplaced Pages tries to stay neutral, so this shouldn't be either pro-incest or anti-incest, it should just mention the relevant issues and facts. However, some people who are involved in incest are abused so I think it is important to list these types of resouces.

Badly organized

This article is very badly organized. Incest#Genetics is passable, but Incest#Endogamy and exogamy wanders through cultural traditions into Bible stories (which should be in the religion section), the awkwardly named Incest#Sexual relations between cousins and other distant relatives wanders into legal issues (which should be in the law section), while the Incest#Laws regarding incest section is too short. This article needs a serious overhaul. Joie de Vivre 13:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The Support Orgs section looks much better after your work, Joie de Vivre. I have rewritten the Intro section to remove all weasel words and unsourced material. The Intro is now completely sourced to non-encyclopedic texts including studies by Durkheim and Levi-Strauss. Onwards! ZeroZ 00:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliment! In regards to your changes -- excellent work! The writing style is now cleaner and more straightforward. The intro stays on topic, and it provides reliable sources. Good job, ZeroZ!

I plan to restructure the Incest article according to my suggestions above, soon. I would be fine with it if you, ZeroZ, or anyone else felt inspired to make these changes before I get a chance to. Onwards, indeed! Joie de Vivre 01:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A general comment. It seems that this article in its present form is concerns mainly with the study of incest as a marital or consensual relationship. You seem to desire to talk about incest as a kind of abuse. That information should be in the article, since it is commonly called 'incest', but to include both while maintaining clarity and NPOV, could we start a new section titled 'Incest as abuse' or something?

I agree that somewhat more legal information would be welcome, but remember that we must not talk about any specific laws without a reference. The way, the truth, and the light 01:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Currently, the summary states: Incest is sexual activity between two persons related by close kinship. In some societies this is enforced with the legal or social prohibition to marry." So, is this trying to say that some societies force sexual relations to exist between close kin by prohibiting them from marrying ?-) Or does it perhaps mean that they use such prohibition to enforce the definition of the word "incest" - perhaps by forbidding anyone who doesn't use the official definition to marry ?-) Joking aside, this really needs to be fixed. 88.115.34.156 22:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Laws regarding incest section

The way, the truth, and the light -- you changed the language in a direct quotation from a published article. I restored the original quotation. ZeroZ 07:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't realize while editing that it was a quotation. The way, the truth, and the light 22:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Sibling incest between children

I don't see the relevance of listing the infamous German siblings in this part. It is repetitive because it also appears in the adult section. If I understand correctly they did not even meet until they were adults and genetic sexual attraction is the likely cause for their relationship.

You're right, they don't need to be in that section. The way, the truth, and the light 01:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

i think its sick and i hate it but its also hilarious to joke about and i think people should feel free to do so.

Condoned Bible Incest

There's nothing about the incident with Lot and his daughters that suggests that God "condoned," what happened except for his inaction. I don't think that "silence gives consent" is an argument style fitting for an encyclopedia and would strongly reccomend removing the statement from the article. Abyssal leviathin 05:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC) Presumably however, adam and eve's children were incestual since they were the first humans and no others were mentioned. If other people were especially created by god it seems they would be mentioned. Since assuming silence means something is not appropriate for an encyclopedia, then it seems that adam and eve's children reproduced incestually. User: Brazen Irish Hussy 06:44, 26 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.170.232 (talk)

Introduction

The first two paragraphs as they currently are appear to contradict each other. Are we defining incest as a general concept (as in the first) or as purely a cultural one (as in the second)? The way, the truth, and the light 23:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of incestuous acts

This article is completely void of images actually pertaining to the act of incest. So, in order to rectify this blatant error in the formatting of the article, I suggest pictures of obvious incest be placed in the article for improvement purposes. There are likely to be many sites on the web that have free-use incest images and if not, I, myself, will be willing to shoot some of my own (only if others can't be found of course). Thanks --GoatSmoke 02:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the people who view this article will already know what sex looks like, so it really isn't necessary to give an image of brother/sister sex. It's not going to look any different than the regular stuff. Besides, there's no real way to prove that the people depicted are related anyway, even if we do add an image. Maybe you could find an old painting depicting an incestuous relationship from mythology or something. I dunno, I just don't think the Incest article needs an illustrated how-to guide. :P -Abyssal leviathin 20:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite right Slrubenstein | Talk 21:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This person is clearly trolling (look at some of his other edits). I suggest we ignore him.

I agree, though, that a work of art might be appropriate, or at least not inappropriate, for this page. The way, the truth, and the light 23:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

An obvious troll, certainly. There's a Lucas Cranach painting of Lot and his daughters that might be good. . john k 19:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll cast a vote for definitely inappropriate!!!!!!! Are you all trolling?

64.174.68.114 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Incest in Malaysia

I have collected some local Malaysia news regarding incest for discussion. The thing is, in Malaysia, they (peoples in power) delete/censor 'everything', it is impossible to open discuss incest. Misplaced Pages is international, I hope we can discuss incest.

Incest in Malaysia is a crime and most of these incest criminals are Malay-Muslims.

Wives help man rape

Saturday April 15, 2006

HE HAS multiple wives who gave him scores of children, including five teenage girls whom he raped repeatedly over a period of 18 months before one of them blew the whistle on him.

The 45-year-old, who cannot be named to protect the identity of the children, had subverted parts of the Quran to justify incest.

While conducting a religious lesson, he convinced his wives that he had ownership over his children, which included having sex with them.

Several of his wives even helped him rape their daughters, the court was told on Thursday, in what is one of the most serious cases of sexual abuse in recent years.

There were 43 charges levelled against the man, who preyed on his daughters when they were between 12 and 15 years old, from December 2003 to June last year.

The litany of charges included rape, attempted rape, and aggravated rape, because some of the girls were below 14 and outrage of modesty.

The prosecution said there could be more than 43 instances of abuse. He was only charged over incidents that the girls - now in the care of the Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports - could recollect.

Deputy Public Prosecutor Eugene Lee told the court: “The incidents of abuse were so numerous that they were hard-pressed to keep count, much less remember the exact specifics of each incident.”

Likewise, the girls’ father too could not remember.

The court heard on Thursday that he would send one of his wives to tell a girl to go to his bedroom. He would have sex with them even though they cried out in pain.

Two later became pregnant and had to go for abortions.

Finally, on June 24 last year, the oldest of the abused daughters reported her father to the police. He was arrested the next day.

On Thursday, the stout, bespectacled man with greying hair pleaded guilty to nine of the charges against him. Justice Tay Yong Kwang will take the remaining charges into consideration when he delivers sentence on Tuesday.

The prosecution asked the judge to put the man away for a “substantial period.”

The penalty for rape is a maximum of 20 years in jail and caning. For aggravated rape, the penalty is at least eight years in jail and 12 strokes of the cane.

Said DPP Lee: “In cases involving young persons, particularly one’s own children, the courts have never shied away from imposing heavy sentences in order to send out a clear signal to all would-be offenders that there is zero tolerance for such heinous crimes.”

He noted that the man had planned his moves and had abused his daughters in the sanctity of their own home.

The man’s lawyer, Harold Seet, denied that his client had been motivated by lust.

He said the patriarch, who ran his own firm, was stressed out by having to provide for his large family.

To add to these worries, he learnt that the girls were behaving inappropriately with boys.

He concluded that having sex with his daughters to “satisfy” them, so they would be less likely to go with others, was the lesser of two evils, said the lawyer.

In response to The Straits Times’ queries, the prosecution declined to say whether charges would be brought against the wives who helped him. – The Straits Times / Asia News Network

Incest: Islamic View

Man gets 15 years jail for raping daughter

Incest issue continues to make headlines

TDM that say Muslims commit the highest percentage of incest! Sad but true!

Statistics of incest in Malaysia

Chauffeur found guilty of committing incest from 1976 to 2003

Ex-cop admits to incest

Security guard charged with incest

Dad faces incest charges

Tuesday October 4, 2005

Girl, 16, endures incest to save her younger sisters

ALOR STAR: For five years a daughter suffered in silence when her father raped her because he allegedly threatened to rape her two younger sisters if she did not give in.

But when her father allegedly forced her to pull down her panties when she was having her menses, the SPM student could stand it no longer.

The girl, who will turn 17 in December, ran away from home and reported to the police that her 48-year-old father, who is a farmer, and her 20-year-old brother had been raping her about two or three times a week.

In her report, the girl stated that her father had been raping her since 2000 while her brother, a carpenter, started raping her from 2003 when he was 18.

Her brother told police that he raped his sister because she was sexy, especially when she wore a sarong after her bath.

Kota Star OCPD ACP Zainal Abidin Kasim said the girl claimed that she endured the rapes because she did not want her 10- and 12-year-old sisters to be victims of incest, too.

?Within hours of the girl lodging a report on Sept 28, we detained her brother at their home in Kampung Padang Wat in Mukim Langgar,? he said, adding that the carpenter has been remanded until tomorrow.

The girl's father has disappeared and has been put on the wanted list.

?We have searched for him at all his usual hangouts in Langgar. We would appreciate public feedback,? ACP Zainal said.

The girl has two older sisters aged 24 and 25, one of whom is a policewoman.

ACP Zainal said the girl's mother did not believe her when she cried rape.

?She decided to run away from home because she felt pressured by her father and brother,? he said, adding that the girl was now under the care of the State Welfare Department.

?In a different case, another SPM student who is barely 17 years old is 17 weeks? pregnant,? said ACP Zainal.

Police have arrested the girl's 34-year-old uncle to facilitate investigations.

?The suspect, an odd job worker, has been remanded until Monday,? he said, adding that the girl claimed that she was raped several times by her uncle from January 2003 to Aug 31 this year.

The girl is from Kampung Marlat, also in Mukim Langgar.

Those with information can call Chief Inspector Zaleha Salim at 04-7326 999.

Pak Lah (Malaysia's Prime Minister): Stiffer sentences, whipping, called against child, incest rapists

New Straits Times, Kuala Lumpur, 6 April 2002

By Firdaus Abdullah

Rapists, especially those guilty of incest, should be given heavier sentences with mandatory whipping, Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said today.

He said this was because incest and rape of minors were unforgivable as there were no mitigating factors.

"I share the general feeling of the rakyat who wish for a more deterrent minimum punishment for such heinous crimes", Abdullah said, adding that such criminals should be dealt with seriously as their victims suffered life-long misery.

Speaking to the media after delivering his keynote address at the Wholesome Families The Pulse Of The Nation - A Meeting Of Minds: The Malaysian Family seminar, he said those who committed incest also ruined the family institution.

He said recent reports of violence against the young, in particular sexual violence, was very saddening.

"I'm very, very upset with this. Such inhumane acts should never be condoned by anyone ... we cannot tolerate this. Zero tolerance!", he said.

Abdullah said Women Affairs and Family Development Minister Datuk Sharizat Abdul Jalil would submit a proposal to the Cabinet for approval before it was tabled in Parliament. Section 376 of the Penal Code provides for a jail sentence of up to a minimum of five years and a maximum of 20 years and whipping.

Amendments to the Penal Code last year provided for a jail term of not less than six years and not more than 20 years and whipping of up to 24 strokes for incest.

Abdullah said the minimum jail and whipping provided for rapists now was inadequate and not as deterrent as expected.

"Judges could decide on longer sentences but we want to make the minimum jail term and additional whipping effectively deterrent".

Incest issue continues to make headlines

The Star, KL, 4 May 2002

THE dreadful truth about incest continues to be told in Utusan Malaysia, with one article recalling the absurd replies that a former Prisons Department official got when he spoke to the perpetrators of the crime. When Datuk Zaman Khan was the department director-general, he once asked a father why he had raped his own child. Apparently, the man replied: "As a father, I had planted the seed before my child was born. Thus, I am rightfully the person to taste the fruit before anybody else."

Read MORE INCEST in the local newspaper, here: http://archives.thestar.com.my/search/default.aspx?query=incest

Driver who raped stepdaughters gets deterrent sentence

Saturday May 19, 2007

By M. MAGESWARI KUALA LUMPUR: Ninety years’ jail and 18 strokes of the rotan! That was what a Sessions Court here meted out on a lorry driver who raped and forced his two underage stepdaughters to perform oral sex on him. The man, however, will only serve 30 years because most of the jail terms for the multiple charges are to run concurrently from the date of arrest on April 30. The girls, aged 14 and 15, had lodged police reports on that day when their mother discovered that the elder one was seven months’ pregnant following a hospital check-up. On each of the four counts of committing incest, judge Anita Harun imposed a 15-year jail sentence on the 40-year-old man and three strokes of the rotan. On each of the three counts of forcing the young girls to perform oral sex, the judge ordered the driver to serve 10 years and caned twice. The man did not show any emotion when he heard the verdict yesterday. He had committed the offences in his bedroom and the girls’ room at their home in Cheras sometime in the middle of 2005 to April this year. The court was told that he had married the girls’ mother in 1997. He raped them when his wife, a security guard, went to work. The man first raped the younger girl sometime in mid-2005, after pulling her into his bedroom and forcing her to perform oral sex on him. He also threatened to beat her if she told her mother about it. He repeated the crimes on her in December last year. In January last year, while the elder girl was reading a book, he rubbed her cheeks and then pulled her to his bed and raped her. Three months later, he forced her to perform oral sex on him. On another occasion, while the girl was washing dishes in the kitchen, he asked her to have sex with him and sometime in April this year, he raped her again. He warned ‘’’ “anti siaplah engkau (I will finish you)” ‘’’ if she told anyone about the incident and the girl, fearing that he would also assault his wife as he had often done, did not relate the ordeal to her mother. Deputy Public Prosecutor Tetralina Ahmed Fawzi pressed for a deterrent sentence, saying that it was in the public interest and that the offences were serious. She described the man’s actions as “heinous, sinful and disgraceful”. Tetralina also asked the court to consider police statistics which showed a big increase in rape cases from 2000 (when 1,200 rape cases were reported) to 2005 (1,887 cases).

Ex-cop admits to incest

Saturday March 17, 2007

TAIPING: The stepfather of a Form Four student, who gave birth to a stillborn girl in her school last week, has pleaded guilty to two counts of incest. At a magistrate’s court here yesterday, the 42-year-old former policeman readily nodded and uttered “mengaku (admit)” each time a charge was read out to him by the interpreter. He was said to have had sexual intercourse with the underaged girl at their home in Kuala Kangsar on Feb 10 this year and June last year. The stepfather, who was unrepresented, faces a maximum 20-year jail term and whipping for each count. Magistrate Rohaida Ishak, who sat as a Sessions judge, denied the man bail and set April 16 for facts and sentencing. The prosecution was led by Budiman Lutfi Mohamed.

‘Chastity belts can thwart rape and incest’

Friday February 16, 2007

HULU TERENGGANU: Women should wear chastity belts to thwart rape and incest which are rampant nowadays, a well-respected religious figure here suggested. Datuk Abu Hassan Din Al-Hafiz said chastity belts would protect victims and also help reduce sex crime rate. “We have even come across a number of unusual sex cases, where even senior citizens and children are not spared. The best way to avert sex perpetrators is to wear protection,” he told his audience at the Maal Hijrah Forum in Kampung Pelandan here last night. “My intention is not to offend women but to safeguard them from sex maniacs. Probably, this is the best way,” he said. “Besides, husbands could also feel more secure, if you know what I mean,” he added. Abu Hassan said the practice of wearing chastity belts could be traced to as recent as the mid-1960s.

Chauffeur found guilty of committing incest from 1976 to 2003

Wednesday March 21, 2007 By CHELSEA L.Y.NG

KUALA LUMPUR: Sixty-year-old chauffeur-cum-taxi driver Omar Tahir has been found guilty of committing incest for marrying two sisters. Omar married Halimah Ingah in 1960 and 17 years later wed her younger sister, Mahaya. Yesterday, he was fined RM4,000 by the Syariah High Court here for committing incest with Mahaya, 57. The man, who fathered seven children – five with Halimah, 64, and two with Mahaya, paid the fine. He would have been jailed 40 days if he was unable to pay the fine. Mahaya, who faces a similar charge, did not turn up in court yesterday. Judge Mohamad Shakir Abdul Hamid issued a warrant of arrest against her. She is to be produced in court on May 23 to show cause why she was absent. The couple were charged on Dec 28 with committing incest at their flat in Jalan Kuchai Lama here between 1976 and 2003. According to prosecuting officer Mohd Yusof Sulaiman, the case was the first of its kind in the city. Omar, who earns RM1,100 a month as a chauffeur, supplements his income by driving a taxi at night and on his days off. When contacted later, Omar said his wives no longer lived under the same roof. “Halimah lives in the kampung in Rembau and I no longer keep in touch with Mahaya,” he said. In her statement to the Federal Territories Religious Affairs Department (Jawi), Mahaya said she married Omar after he told her he had divorced Halimah. The court was told yesterday that Jawi investigated the case following a tip-off from the public.

Islamic point of view on incest

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544442

Question: “As-salamu `alaykum. My name is faezah. I would like to know the Islamic point of view on incest. In Malaysia, incest is now rampant and the laws are not sufficient in curbing this heinous crime. Do you have any recommendation on how to curb this crime?”

Answer: “Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

No doubt zina (adultery or fornication) is one of the gravest sins that incur Allah’s severest punishment on the Day of Judgment. Allah Almighty says, (And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.) (Al-Israa’ 17: 32)

The sin becomes heinous when it comes to committing incest. It is the most serious offense and enormity in the Sight of Allah, the Almighty.”

Of Briton

"When Julius Caesar invaded Britain for the second time in 54 BC, he noted the customs of the Britons, remarking, 'Wives are shared between groups of ten or twelve men, especially between brothers and between fathers and sons; but the offspring of these unions are counted as the children of the man with whom a particular woman cohabited first."

As far as I'm aware when Caesar made this assertion he was speaking specifically of the men of Kent, not all of Briton. 70.187.156.140 09:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not the same thing as incest, anyway. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Since this is historically inaccurate, in that it speaks of all of Briton rather then just the territory around Kent and since that as Slrubenstein said, the alleged cultural phenomena isn't actually incest I'm removing the text. Bloody Sacha 12:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sweden/ France

In the article it says Sweden is the only European country allowing marriage between siblings sharing a parent, while under France it says adult incest is allowed. I presume the Swedish part is wrong, but if someone wants to clear that upInterpretivechaos 02:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is not. You see there is a difference between marriage and just intercourse. ;) France allows them to engage in incest but not to marry, Sweden allows them to marry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.72.172 (talk) 18:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Japan

The guy who runs the Mensans on the Web MSN group made some peculiar statments about Japanese incest that would be insulting for me to repeat if they weren't true. I will vaguely say they involved certain types of incest being regarded as normal. Is this an urban legend? He claims it was normal and had to fend it off when he was there out of culture clash. --Scottandrewhutchins 18:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Article lead

"When the activity is non-consensual, it is considered a form of sexual abuse". Surely this is true of any sexual activity, and therefore irrelevant to the article lead? Oli Filth 19:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This seems appropriate for the lead, because most incest is non-consensual, with a significant majority of cases being father-daughter incest. The article will need some references about this, but it's so common, it will not be hard to find the sources. Here's one example:

National Center for Victims of Crime:

Research indicates that 46 percent (46%) of children who are raped are victims of family members. (Langan and Harlow, 1994.) The majority of American rape victims (61%) are raped before the age of 18; furthermore, an astounding 29 percent (29%) of all forcible rapes occurred when the victim was less than 11 years old. Eleven percent (11%) of rape victims are raped by their fathers or step-fathers, and another 16 percent (16%) are raped by other relatives. (National Center for Victims of Crime and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992.)

This incest part of the information can be integrated into the article when someone has the time... --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That tells you how many people are the subject of unconsenting incest. It doesn't tell you that most incest is non-consensual. I also agree that these sentences are completely irrelevant to the article.--Crossmr (talk) 01:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Jack-A-Roe on this...and feel that the above addressed sentence should stay. Flyer22 (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I've done an edit replacing the sentence Oli Filth mentioned, and adding Jack's statistics to the second paragraph.

Jack is right: the fact that most incest is violent, either physically or emotionally, and does devastating emotional harm, should be prominent in the introduction and the article as a whole. But that sentence was wrong and incoherent on so many levels you had to think about it for awhile to see all of them.

First of all its wrong. Non-consensual intercourse between adults is rape, not sexual abuse. Second of all, Oli is right, the sentence says nothing about incest. And the most disturbing thing is that it sends the message that rape is just another form of sexual abuse. Even worse, it subtly implies that defining non-consensual sex as sexual abuse might just be a matter of opinion (... is considered a form of sexual abuse ...)

Well, I may be reading too much into the last one. But, as I've noted below, I was really shocked, and even angered, by the fact that an article about rape barely mentions the important and uncontroversial facts about the profoundly traumatizing and emotionally devastating effects of parent-child incest, and in general, incest's association with violence, victimization,and mental illness. Why else would it be in the medical and psychological categories?

Fixing the introduction is the first step. The next is to start to put together what should be relatively large section on this topic, and make it the most prominent section in the article. IMHO SeattleJoe (talk) 06:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Incest in Islam (more information needed)

Islam: The Quran mentions incest which prohibits a man from having sexual relationships with his mother, daughter, sister, paternal aunt, maternal aunt or niece. However, Islam allows for marriage with cousins and other more distant relatives. Only in case of marriage does Islam allow sexual relations between cousins and other distant relatives.

The paragraph has some missing information. It is also eternally prohibited to a muslim man to marry his 1- wetnurse (as she becomes his mother by breastfeeding), 2- milk sister, 3- mother-in-law, 4- stepdaughter (in this case the eternal prohibition is not active before a sexual intercourse occures between the mother and the father-in-law after their marriage), 5- daughter-in-law and 6- Stepmother.

These six mentioned females are considered as Mahrams =>(see link below at the bottom) in Islam and having sexual relationship with them can also be defined as incest in islamic religion.

The evidence is that Allah says in Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

Forbidden to you are your mothers and daughters, your sisters, your aunts paternal and maternal, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your mothers who have given suck to you, your suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your stepdaughters who are in your care being born of your wives you have been in to -- but if you have not yet been in to them it is no fault in you -- and the spouses of your sons who are of your loins... (Quran, 4:23)

Also Allah says in Quran (interpretation of the meaning):And say to the believing women, that they cast down their eyes and guard their private parts, and reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them cast their veils over their bosoms, and not reveal their adornment save to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands' fathers, or their sons, or their husbands' sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or what their right hands own, or such men as attend them, not having sexual desire, or children who have not yet attained knowledge of women's private parts; nor let them stamp their feet, so that their hidden ornament may be known. And turn all together to God, O you believers; haply so you will prosper.( Quran, 24:31)

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=5538&ln=eng

• PS. the page of the link shows a hadith by prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) where he says: “...the same relationships of mahram are created by radaa’ah =>(this means breastfeeding) as by blood ties.”. This concludes that to a muslim man his wetnurse's mother and sister, both respectively turn into his grandmother and aunt.

Royal/noble incest

shouldn't something be mentioned about how royal families used to have to marry within their family they still kinda do but it's not considered family anymore but i mean back when they would marry their cousins i have no idea where to put it though —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlieh7337 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Legal situation of incest in Germany

I have removed the following paragraph from said subsection:

"Contemporary newspapers (March of 2008) report that in the downwash of the Constitutional Court decision lawyers claim penalization a reminder to antiquated eugenics tradition of past centuries. With the bad experience of dispute on eugenics by lawyers in legislation during the Nazi regime just lawyers should keep their minds out of revision of such traditions. Noteworthy, a ratio of 2:2 of severe genetic deficiencies with offsprings in the reported case of 2007/2008 does not advocate for neglecting the eugenics aspect. Which society shall take the burden from such misleading legal evolution."

This is blatant POV and in no way encyclopedic, not mentioning the fact that no sources whatsoever were provided. In case this paragraph was a direct quotation of a notable personality (either the judges of the BVG or a spokesperson for a lawyers organisation, or a politician or religious leader etc.), please provide references and rephrase it accordingly. For now, it will stay out. Vargher (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

How is it possible that there is no section on the devastating psychological effects of parental incest?

There is absolutely no discussion of the extremely serious psychological harm inflicted on a child by parent-child incest. This is not controversial, and the fact that there isn't a section on it in the article sticks out like a very sore thumb. Just noting that sex with daddy or mommy is "considered child abuse" isn't enough.

For one thing it isn't considered child abuse. It is child abuse. And, in fact, sex between any adult and a child, and especially with an adult who has authority over the child, and especially with the child's parents, is "considered", by many people and in many jurisdictions, rape.

It is as if we are trying to be so objective and neutral that we are afraid to state the obvious fact that parental incest is really, really bad for kids. Really bad.

Also, there is an odd hesitancy to even use the term "rape", as in this very strange passage in the first paragraph:

When incest is non-consensual, whether because of the threat of or use of physical force or because of emotional pressure, it is considered a form of sexual abuse, and when one of the family members involved is a minor, incestuous activity is known as intrafamilial child sexual abuse.

will work on something short to add fairly soon, or, preferably, someone better qualified might do it, but the article needs a real overhaul. A discussion of the psychological harm caused by parent-child incest -- psychological devastation, in fact -- as well as forms of treatment and recovery,should be central to the article.

As opposed to entirely absent.

Sorry to get all huffy. But Jesus! SeattleJoe (talk) 12:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You make some good points. You're welcome to upgrade the article and I look forward to reading your contributions. One comment - I'm not sure how the definition of "rape" applies when the incest does not involve intercourse, that might need some differentiation based on references (legal or medical). Also, we need to separately mention the concept of consensual incest, though I think we'll find inthe references that that's much more rare than child sexual abuse within the family. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 16:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You're totally right about the definition or rape. I looked it up. The differentiation is simple and clear. You saved me some embarrassment.

As for consensual incest between adults, i think you're right that is rarer than parent-child rape, and is also far less problematic. But any form of sexual activity between an adult and a child is sexual abuse, and if it involves intercourse it is rape, by most definitions and in most jurisdictions. And imho. Even if the child "consents." SeattleJoe (talk) 23:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Statutory rape is a whole 'nother discussion, but I disagree with classifying incest, child sexual abuse, and statutory rape as essentially the same. For one thing, incest can be sex between brothers and sisters, not just parental rape of a child. Secondly, statutory rape can be a simple case of a girl with an older boyfriend, such as a 15 yr old with an 18 yr old... which in some US states is still considered statutory rape. I have no problem with mentioning rape in an article about incest, but you should make it more clear that not all incest is rape. And there should be clearer definitons of the different types of incest. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 00:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi ErgoSum88. Are you talking about the two paragraphs I added after the first two existing paragraphs in the article? I think they deal with all your criticisms, except that I'm just calling adult/child sexual intercourse 'rape" without any discussion, and saying it is "usually called' statutory rape. I should say that it is a legal term. And there are some typos, so I will do it now.

I've never seen the definition of adult/child ses as controversial, so i just stated it as if it were an agreed upon fact. The unavoidable grey area is alway defining who is and is not a child, and there is no avoiding some arbitrariness in making that decision, which will be different in different cultures and different jurisdiction.

The simplest reason it is rape, I would say, is that children do not have full power of consent,and adults have too much power over children, necessarily, for intercourse not to be either a simple matter of coercion or a form of emotional manipulation that further diminishes the child's power of consent. If this is controversial, i guess we should make it a topic down here and discuss it.

And thanks whoever provided the footnote! I was worrying about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SeattleJoe (talk • contribs) 04:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did the edit. Identified "statutory rape" as legal term, fixed some typos. Also, an anonymous user changed 'child' to "minor" in one place, and i changed it back to "child". "Minor" is a legal term, but in this case it was a discussion about psychology. SeattleJoe (talk) 05:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to your edit. All I was saying, is that the introduction should have a wider view of the subject rather than simply stating "incest is rape." Clearly, there are types of incest that are not rape, such a adult siblings. The point of an encyclopedia is not to take sides, but to present a balanced, unbiased view.

The intro states: "When incest is non-consensual, whether because of the threat of or use of physical force or because of emotional pressure, it is a form of sexual abuse, and if involves intercourse, it is a form of rape." I think this is unnecessary... all non-consensual sex is rape, and I think everyone knows that. Perhaps a better statement would be: "In X% of cases, incest involves the parental sexual abuse (or rape) of children. And X% of incest cases involve the rape of siblings." Having some statistics and references to back up your claims will help in proving these statements. You shouldn't just add new information without backing it up.

It also says: "When it involves intercourse it is also a form of rape, as is all sexual intercourse between an adult and a child. The legal term for this form of rape is statutory rape." Which I do not agree with... sexual intercourse between an adult and a child is child sexual abuse. Sexual intercourse between an adult and an adolescent is usually referred to as "statutory rape" because minors are not allowed to give consent. A 5 yr old child cannot consent to sex because they are not sexually mature and hardly even knows what sex is... a 14 yr old adolescent is sexually mature and fully aware of sex but is legally restricted from giving consent to sex with adults on moral grounds. Calling child sexual abuse "statutory rape" is misleading, because they are two completely different things. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 05:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You are right about the use of the terms rape and statutory rape when it comes to children. Just ignorance on my part.

But I didn't say or imply that all incest is rape. I identified very specifically when incest is also rape. I think you should read those two very short paragraphs again. (I just removed the stuff about children and rape.)

As for brother sister incest, which you have mentioned a few times,the relative frequency and psychic impact of different types of incest is an interesting topic, and should be discussed in the article. But we are just beginning to talk about the psychological implications of incest in the article, and I don't see how that is nearly as important as a discussion of parent child incest.

A 'balanced view' does not mean giving equal weight to all possible points of view, or equal importance to all facts. That incest between brother and sisters (which can also be sexual abuse or rape) exists and is generally not as psychologically harmful as is sex between parent and child, is an interesting detail. It is precisely because parent/child sexual abuse has such a devastating impact, and because it is a huge and controversial social problem, that it has to hold the most prominent place in an article about incest.

It is the reality that is "unbalanced," and an encyclopedia article should reflect the reality. It is important in an article about incest to prominently address the fact that many, and perhaps all, forms of incest are not merely taboo but cause harm, and frequently devastating harm. It is not controversial, and it is the fact about incest that has the greatest impact in the contemporary world. It is not an "unbalanced view."

That is why I mention rape when and where I do. And when i do i am simply stating facts (except when I get it wrong!) because i think those facts are important.

In my very strong opinion, it is the current article that presents an extremely unbalanced view. It barely mentions the psychological consequences of incest. Which, aside from anything else, is kind of weird.

It's as if the previous authors were afraid that incest might be offended and sue. 07:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I really really want to thank ergosum for challenging me. I finally figured out what he was saying about my placement of rape in the first paragraph. I didn't see it because I put it there to try and fix the sentence before it, and didn't see that that sentence I was fixing was also in the wrong place. I've done a new edit to the first paragraph, and we'll see if that passes muster. SeattleJoe (talk) 05:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

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