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Clarification Please

I thought Noah brought two of each unclean animal (one male and one female) on board to the ark. But this article says two pair which means four of each?

Ararat

This was on the page:

Gen. 8:4 reads, in the KJV, "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat." (And modern Christian translations, and the old JPS, are similar.) Ararat is a region in Armenia, according to Biblical scholars, so the verse

• is entirely consistent with the ark landing somewhere other than Mt. Ararat (whether or not the writer knew that), and
• is entirely consistent with the ark landing on Mt. Ararat (without the writer knowing that), but
• is hard to explain if the ark landed there and the writer intended to convey that.

So the widespread traditional belief that the Book of Genesis identifies Mt. Ararat as the resting place of Noah's Ark must be described as a misconception.

Can't figure out what it means, could someone who knows please rephrase it and put it back into the article? If it's worth it, that is. Gaurav 11:38, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I wrote it, but

• obviously it's not worded well enuf, and
• on reflection, IMO most of it belongs only on this talk page, to serve as verification of some version, in the article, of the conclusion of that argument.

What it's supposed to get across is

Anyone you ask will tell you that the Bible says the ark landed on Mt. A. But where did they get that idea? It doesn't say that, it just says it landed in a region that might mean "somewhere in a group of mountains that includes Mt. A" or "somewhere in the region whose largest city was also the largest city near Mt. A"

OK, it doesn't say it landed on Mt. A, but does it say it didn't? In fact, historians say all the time that "the Wehrmacht was defeated at Stalingrad", without mentioning that it happened on the Volga, bcz everyone knows that. So the writer may have known its landing point in that much detail (or not); all we can tell is that for some reason they didn't decide to give any detailed information.

But we can say this: the people who tell you it landed on Mt. A. don't have to be wrong about that, but they're wrong if they tell you they got the idea by carefully reading the Bible.

Do you think most people can figure out this:

The tradition that Mt. Ararat was the resting place of Noah's Ark is widely known. Similarly widespread is the misconception that the Book of Genesis asserts that. (In fact it says as to location only "And the ark rested ... upon the mountains of Ararat", at Gen. 8:4, KJV.)

Even if it's not "worth" the long version, i think one this short is well justified on the article. --Jerzy(t) 18:41, 2004 Mar 23 (UTC)

That's nice, but I think "And the ark rested ... upon the mountains of Ararat" does sound like the literal mountains of Ararat are meant, and not merely the area near them (if I understand your point correctly). Is there some confusion in the meaning arising from the translation, etc? Alternatively, you could just add it to the article and then we'll fight over how best to phrase it .. the Wiki Way! *cheesy grin*. Nicely written article, btw. Very thorough! Gaurav 17:40, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The change to the article was a corrective to statements on WP that Mt. Ararat, not the range that includes it, is supposed to be the resting place. No one is suggesting that it was not said to be on a literal mountain. If you think "mountains of Ararat" is more widespread than "Mt. Ararat" (which means a specific well identified peak) bring evidence of that, and the words "the widespread misconception" can be softened, but your comment is not a valid criticism of my proposed language, which i will indeed insert. --Jerzy(t) 00:50, 2004 Mar 25 (UTC)

The numbers given for the ages of the persons listed in the Genesis genealogies are symbolic and represent the number system of the ancient afroasiatic ancestors of Noah. The statement that the ark was made of gopher wood is misleading. The Hebrew word for Noah's ark is the same word that describes the reed basket that Moses floated in. Gopher means it was sealed with pitch. Noah ruled in the area of Lake Chad in what is called the country of Noah or "Bor-nu" the only place on earth that claims to be home to the biblical Noah. (See The Biblical Noah on Drell's Descants. descants@classicalanglican.net) There are two flood accounts in Genesis. One is African and the other is Mesopotamian. Noah is the African hero and the ancestor of Abraham. The Mesopotamian story is based on the account of Ziusudra, not related to Abraham. Alice C. Linsley

2004 Fall

Animals & Water Source

This article, particularly "The flood" and "The Flood under scrutiny", has several serious problems, which hopefully I will return to fix. But first, can somebody support the claim that "mabbuwl" literally means "storehouse of water" or "heavenly ocean"? I think this is quite suspect. Philip J. Rayment 15:11, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have removed the following paragraph, on the ground that the inaccuracies in it leave it with no merit whatsoever.

While the flood might explain the extinction of species such as the dinosaur, it gives no explanation for the extinction of any marine life, which of course would not have drowned. Also, the Bible mentions that Noah took 1, 2 or 7 pair of EACH land animal on board (more precisely, every land animal with the breath of life in its nostrils). Why he would not have taken any dinosaur on board is not explained. It is impossible that dinosaurs didn't breath or breathed through their skin like some insects simply due to their size.

The flood is not used to explain extinction, as the ark was used to prevent extinction. Nevertheless, the geologic upheavals involved with the flood would have suffocated and buried many marine creatures, potentially leading to some extinctions. The paragraph assumes that dinosaurs were not on board then argues that on Biblical grounds they should have been. The latter is correct (they should have been), so why the assumption that they weren't? Philip J. Rayment 04:12, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have now consulted not only Strong's Concordance, but also The Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Benjamin Davis, and "mabbuwl" does not mean "storehouse of water" nor "heavenly ocean". Therefore I have changed the first paragraph of "The Flood" to reflect this, and added a bit about the rain being only one source of the water.

I have also made the following changes to the "The flood under scrutiny" section.

I removed the line "However, the Bible is very clear on how the deluge happened. It doesn't speak of a flood, but of 40 days of continuous rain, which is something very different." as it is based on the incorrect meaning of "mabbuwl".

I removed the paragraph about the amount of rain required and the amount of thermal consequences as it ignored the contribution of the "fountains of the deep".

I rewrote the paragraph about "kinds", as it wrongly claimed that Christians who believe in a literal flood disagree with speciation, and therefore wrongly concluded that representatives of each species must have been on the ark.

I removed the paragraph regarding the distribution of animals from the ark for several reasons. The lack of evidence for such a distribution implies that we should expect such evidence, but why should we? The sentence "There is no explanation why certain species can only be found at certain continents, such as marsupials in Australia." is unwarranted because (a) it was contradicted by the next sentence which purported to offer just such an explanation(!) and (b) because this problem is not confined to a Biblical worldview, but is a problem for almost any attempted explanation of animal distribution. The creationary explanation given for the distribution is really an explanation for isolation, not for distribution, it was vague ("the earth looked much different then") and the criticism of it as requiring impossibly fast geological processes seems to ignore the possibility that the main process involved was rising sea levels at the end of an/the ice age.

I modified the last paragraph of the section to make it more NPOV. As it stood, it said in effect, "such and such is the case, although creationists disagree". Philip J. Rayment 02:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Following Gene Poole's modifications and reversions, I made the following further changes:

I again removed the bits about the thermal consequences of the rain, as it was still based on an unsupportable assumption about the quantity involved. To clarify, I provided extra information--in general terms--regarding the water volumes.

I reinstated some wording regarding the animals on the ark as the previous changes were written as though the two accounts of the numbers were necessarily in conflict, which would only be the case if the two accounts were both intended to be comprehensive. There is not reason to presume this, as far as I am aware. (i.e. the first could be a general description of the numbers involved, and the second a more-detailed description.)

I also removed the word "allegedly". This section is describing the story. In one sense the entire story is "alleged", so I see no need to add that word additionally at this point.

I also re-removed the paragraph regarding the distribution of animals. When removing it the first time I explained why (see above), and it was re-instated without any case being made to do so, and without any refutation of my reasons for removing it.

Philip J. Rayment 06:37, 9 Sep 2004 (U

Restored Discussion

The following discussion between two editors (apparently continuing what is just above the heading) was removed by one of them (the IP 198.208.159.14, AKA Charlie Turek), and then again, the second time over the protest of the other. It is now restored by Jerzy·t 07:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC).

C)

I am considering of drawing the reader's attention to the 2 different traditions that exist within the Noah's of Ark story. Instead of using the traditional J,E,P,D. I would prefer to simplify using A and B. The story of Noah's Ark contains the most vivid and striking examples of multiple authorship. Since the story of Noah's ark is so popular and confusing in its telling, if it is closley examined; (at least it was for me) I think this is the right place. Then I will link it to the Documentary Hypothesis. I welcome your comments. User:Kazuba 18 Oct 2004

If you do this, you need to be clear that the idea of "two different traditions", indeed the entire J,E,D,P, theory, is by no means universally accepted, but is just one way that people have tried to explain the Bible from a liberal perspective. I suspect that one of your examples is the first reference to animals being in pairs, and the second to some animals being in sevens. But this can just as easily be explained as initial summary information followed by more detailed information at a later date. It is frequently possible to see patterns where none exist. Philip J. Rayment 15:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Phil, There is very much more. I do not consider myself a liberal, or an anything, I have genuine curiosity. I love a good puzzle. I do have one problem. I cannot understand why people desire conclusions and convictions and why delving into things as deep as possible is rare. I have a difficult time with boundaries. I have heard it said,"God lives in details." Man, I love details. Kazuba18 Oct 2004

Forget it! Putting this stuff on here is tough. I've got better things to do that won't get people upset..again. Perhaps this time I can keep my trap shut and sacrifice my curiosity for the sake of others. Yeah sure...Kazuba19 Oct 2004

Preservation of Discussion

It is fundamental to this community's use of talk pages that the course of the discussion be preserved, either in its original location or in archives easily found from that location.

The removal of one's own discussion (always in cases where it has appeared long enough to elicit comment by others, and generally in any case) requires extraordinary circumstances that produce a consensus for removal; unilateral removal of one's own remarks is vandalism, and removal of others' on-topic remarks, or removal of the context in which others' were made, is suppression of the others' right of expression, or effective forgery of their their signed remarks by changing their meaning.

The IP in question is warned that both the previous removals are absolutely unacceptable, and repetions will not be tolerated.

If there is need to mark certain remarks as regretted, misconstrued, or whatever, that may be done, with time-stamps and signatures (coded with --~~~~ to provide a clear history, and it may even be justified to strike thru some text thusly to emphasize (without rendering it unreadable) that its content is substantially deprecated. If that is desired, it should be discussed, again with proper time-stamps and signatures.
--Jerzy·t 07:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Ark as Story, and Everything Else About Noah

some of you have mentioned that Noah's Ark was only a story. While not trying to take sides, I would have to say that there is plenty of evidence for the flood. Also. Whoever wanted to merge it with the article Noah, I disagree. This is about the ark itself and the events that surrounding it. The article about Noah should be about Noah as a man, of course give some info about the Ark, but mainly him as a person.

The page history show the above to have been added in Revision as of 20:54, 14 Nov 2004 by User:Tommajor.

Ancient Chinese characters

First, i failed to make myself understood in an effort to be pithy. I meant "goofy" not in the PoV sense of being laughably false, but in the sense of being at the fringe of opinion. This is objectively goofy in that sense:

• The other subheads of "The historicity of the flood" describe familiar sorts of arguments, of multiple generations' standing, but this is still an obscure one after 25 years; i think i've heard all the others before, but never this one.
• This argument puts itself at odds with prevailing scientific opinion in a qualitatively different way from the others: biology and geology draw conclusions about events that can't be directly observed, using very complicated networks of evidence (including rocket-science methods like molecular biology and super-high-pressure, -temperature, and -viscosity chemistry, sonics, and fluid dynamics) that laypeople can't hope to check, so the arguments are hard to disprove to a layperson's satisfaction. In contrast, the handful of sentences in the 2nd 'graph quickly attack the foundations of the argument with reasoning most people will believe they could verify to their satisfaction with a few hours' study of well-organized relevant evidence, and the only sense in which the 2nd 'graph has encountered rebuttal is the bizarre and unsupported implicit assertion that "boat" is an "abstract idea". The linguistic evidence is far from the usual rocket science, and for most people the "Ancient Chinese characters" argument not only has no traction so far, but will continue to have none.

That is not PoV, it is verifiable if we were to finance a survey, and it is already clear by the standards that we already apply on VfD.
Here's what is PoV:

it's related to "other flood accounts," so it should follow that section.

The "Other flood accounts" section concerns various stories that are apparently unequivocal accounts of great floods; they are of interest because Noah's tale is an unequivocal account of a great flood; they are agreed to be relevant, despite whether they support historicity by showing a common experience of all cultures, or undercut historicity by showing the universal fact-free "saleability" of a compelling work of imagination -- or (why it's not in the article already is not to the point here today) patterns of thot that come as naturally to humans of any culture as do the "bird-of-prey + carnivore + snake = dragon" tales that combine the three horrors that haunt small primates. (Is it rhesus monkeys who have a specific warning cry for each of those predators?)
This is not another unequivocal account of a great flood, nor does it enter into the dicussion in the same way. If this one were true, it would be about faithful transmission of details over something like 4000 miles (and the need to explain why those details show no other presence in pre-missionary Chinese culture, and why it took 500 years of missionaries before anyone came up with this theory). It would be a totally different line of evidence. And calling it relevant is PoV because it is only relevant if what some have called the goofy argument is accepted as true. It doesn't need the support of the "Other flood accounts" section, nor does it supplement that section. It is independent, and it belongs in a separate section under historicity. A later section, so that the many readers who will judge it of neglible interest can make their decision on that after they've seen the meat and potatoes, rather than reading it (and maybe quitting the article completely in disappointment) because they hesitate to start skipping stuff when they're barely halfway through.
No reasonable argument has been made for putting it anywhere but where i did, just before the "Theology" subsection. (At the risk of getting off track, that subsection is also differs, in different dimensions from those "Ancient Chinese characters" differs in, from all the other sections: it defends the historicity of a myth (in the Rudolf Bultmann sense) with the theology, rather than what the rest of the section does, which is defend the historicity of the myth with natural arguments, to the end of producing receptivity to the theology. I don't see (yet) any problem with it being in the historicity section, but i'm glad it's at one end or the other.)

very persuasive:). i consent to your better reasoning:). Ungtss 01:33, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The POV of this page is seriously skewed. The Chinese character nonsense is only the tip of the iceberg. There is virtually no scholarly research and quite a few fabrications. I suggest that the page be reverted to the state it was in a year ago and new page created for "Opinions about the Flood Myth". --- John_Hardy 27 April 2005

Impeachment of Narkas-based content

The article said:

An Italian archaeological group named La Narkas is the most recent of numerous groups claiming to have pinpointed the location of Noah's Ark close to the top of Mount Ararat, which straddles the border of Turkey and Armenia. Photographs of this alleged discovery are available on their website .

until i removed it.

Is it the top (summit?) or some other portion of the mtn that crosses the border? In either case, the NYTimes/London Times 1983 Atlas of the World shows the summit outside Armenia by over 20 miles. The Turkish-Armenian border (which is a river big enuf to extend about 300 miles up- and down-stream, from that area, parallel to the ridge Ararat is on, not down the mountainside) is at that point below 1000 m (in contrast to the 5156 m summit and 2000-3000 m ridge running from it parallel to the border. If someone thot the reality justified describing it as straddling a border, why would they mention only the Armenian one? The Turkish border with Iran is at least 25% closer than that of Armenia, and in a direction along a line that drops slowly as the ridge dies out, not steeply toward the valley and Armenia. It could be argued that the tail of the ridge crosses into Iran, but anyone who believes the mountain extends across the border with Armenia is probably a dupe of someone willing to lie (to raise money from Armenian-Americans? for the greater glory of God?) to produce that belief.
The removed 'graph should stay here until it is determined whether it is the website or the editor who cited it who can't be trusted, and fixed before moving it back.
--Jerzy·t 23:20, 14 & 23:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As'm't to Cat "Mythology"

_ _ My edit summarized

(rv ed of Jayjg to last by Festival of Souls, since cat is defined "Mythology is the study of myths: stories of a particular culture that it believes to be true and which feature a specific religious..)

restored the article to Category:Mythology, whose full description is

Mythology is the study of myths: stories of a particular culture that it believes to be true and which feature a specific religious or belief system.

For more information, see the article about Mythology.

_ _ In response, user:Codex Sinaiticus reverted, summarizing

(rv; pick a less offensive term)

_ _ This talk page's article meets the Cat't criterion (which BTW is long-standing, see Category talk:Mythology), and the aspects that make it do so are significant aspects of the article, so it belongs in the Cat; in that light, removing it destroys an appropriate WP navigational facility, and constitutes vandalism. No single article (or group of articles for that matter) is an acceptable place to act on any complaint about the offensiveness of the word "mythology" in this context (or for that matter, the accuracy of the Cat's description): if there is any problem, it is a problem with the Cat and must be addressed on it or its talk page; in view of the already evident controversiality of the desire to remove the Cat tag, it would be foolish to start with the Cat page rather than its talk page.
--Jerzy·t 21:43, 2005 August 2 (UTC)

I would like to remind anyone who may be new to wikipedia to read the guideline policy: Assume good faith. As for vandalism, I don't happen to think it is vandalism to remove an inappropriate or offensive category; this happens all the time on wikipedia. Try leaving it to the reader to decide whether or not he feels this is mythology, instead of trying to make his mind up for him, which usually isn't going to be effective anyway. Stick with verifiable, referenced assertions and above all, the principle of neutrality (this always wins on wikipedia with any pov that is controversial); throwing a "mythology" tag up is just a backhanded form of pov pushing in this case, especially as a great number of people disagree. The definition at the article mythology makes it quite clear that this is a term only used for stories that could not have any truth to them, and is a way of implying this; therefore it is pov and should be removed in the paramount interest of maintaining NPOV without provoking cries of 'vandalism'... Codex Sinaiticus 03:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)