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This article was nominated for deletion on 14 February 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Americanism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Reasons for AntiAmericanism

Some ideological disagreements are based on true issues of difference between countries or systems, as perhaps was the case between the Communist and Capitalist blocs before the fall of Communism, where often Communists and Capitalists would be against the stated government policy of each other's system. However in many cases, reasons offered for being anti-American are considered spurious by most Americans: for example many people today are anti-American because they believe the US is engaged in a crusade against Islam, whereas this is neither the stated policy of the US nor is it considered by most Americans to be so, or to be a desireable policy. It may even be that some of the anti-American people truly believe that an anti-Islamic crusdae is in fact stated US policy. As another example, many people are anti-American because they believe it is American policy to subjugate Iraq in order to steal its oil whereas most Americans do not believe this is the goal of the Iraq war. To some degree - perhaps to an unusual degree - anti-Americanism is therefore due to what people are told about US policies and actions, and their resulting perceptions and beliefs about US policies and actions, rather than due to the relevant policies and actions as seen by most Americans. Avirab (talk) 01:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Avirab Reference: Avi Rabinowitz http://www.pages.nyu.edu/~air1/politics.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avirab (talk • contribs) 01:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Something like a crusade against Islam can be the effect of US policy, regardless of whether it is an offically stated policy. This whole article is pretty vague about what it means by anti-American. I also wonder what kind of bias is built into the English-language Misplaced Pages. What percentage of native English-speakers are American? If French people were equally represented here, would it really be a consensus to call French concerns as "anti-American?" Life.temp (talk) 08:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We are not here to catalog all instances of anti-Americanisms but to show what anti-Americanism is. Misplaced Pages does follow WP:NPOV, and we try to present all information in an unbiased fashion, being if it is edited by American editor, or an editor from some other country. Igor Berger (talk) 09:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You may want to refer to this article War against Islam, which is pertinent to the topic that you have mentioned. Igor Berger (talk) 09:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That article begins "War against Islam (also War on Islam, or Attack on Islam) is a critical term used to describe a perceived campaign by non-Muslims and alleged false Muslims to harm..." Would you support changing this article to begin "Anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment is perceived opposition or hostility to the people, culture or alleged policies of the United States..." I don't think this article does "show what anti-Americanism is". It shows what some editors interpret as anti-Americanism, and there is cultural bias in that. If French-speaking people were equally represented here, there would be no consensus about how this article has interpreted French thought. Life.temp (talk) 22:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

What does "not necessarily" refer to, in the undo of my edit? Life.temp (talk) 04:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

-- http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=77 Dreadwins (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice link, will add it to peer-reviewed. It is just a DUCK..:)

External Links peer-reviewed

In looking at the articles described as "peer-reviewed" I noticed that few of them are peer-reviewed, and also that this article has a ton of external links, and there is a warnng that says Misplaced Pages shold not act as a repository of links. So, I removed the links that weren't as described. It looks like a lot more can be removed. Life.temp (talk) 04:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I thinked you removed too much. I just inserted a link that is peer-reviewed, but you removed it. Igor Berger (talk) 05:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

How can you tell the commentary (not really an article) you inserted was peer-reviewed? I see no evidence that anything in that section is peer-reviewed. The articles from Brown look most likely, but there is nothing at the host site that says they are peer-reviewed, and it is a student journal rather than a strictly professional journal. Life.temp (talk) 10:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The Pew Research Center is a professional organization not some student publication. But this is not about the link that I inserted, but about you removing like 20 other links, which edit I reverted. If you really intent to remove the links first get consensus with other editors Igor Berger (talk) 11:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Pew Research Center is "some student publication." I didn't remove 20 other links. I removed citations that were wrongly described as "peer-reviewed" in a section that is flagged for having too many external links anyway. The link you inserted is not to a peer-reviewed article at all. The Pew Research Center isn't a journal; its a research center that publishes the result of its own research. Life.temp (talk) 11:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay so maybe we need to tidy up and reorganize a bit, to have the links titled under a proper category. Deleting all the links is not the right way of doing it. If a link has no relevency to the article or POV pushing then I have nothing against deleting it, but if a link is organized in the wrong way, maybe we should add another sub section and put it there. Like the link from the Pew Research Center is! A link from such an organization, which is higly prestige, is useful to the aticle in supporting the description of anti-Americansim. Maybe we can name the section as Further reading. Igor Berger (talk) 11:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You also deleted an edit to the opening sentence, based on what we discussed. It had nothing to do with the articles. Life.temp (talk) 12:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what else I deleted, but when you went slashing chunks out, I reverted you. Take one issue at a time and get a consensus for it. Igor Berger (talk) 12:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think you should know what you are deleting?? Consensus is not required for factual misrepresentations of published work. Life.temp (talk) 04:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, how exactly should I work with you? The only person insisting that these articles are peer-reviewed is you, and you have provided no documentation of that. Regardless, I doubt Misplaced Pages policy is that factually wrong, easily refuted information is acceptable even with consensus. Provide some reason to believe any of those articles are peer-reviewed, please. Also, why don't you restore the other inofrmation you deleted and then said "I do not know what else I deleted" as if knowing what you are doing doesn't matter. Life.temp (talk) 03:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Life.temp, it is not about what I want or do not want. If you want to make a change to the article raise the question on this talk page, one item at a time, in its own subsection. Once you have raised the question or a suggestion, allow time for other editors to comment. Once a few editors have commented, we will see what the consesus has become and will implement the changes or will stay status quo, depending on the consensus. Igor Berger (talk) 07:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Can some editors comment as to if we should remove the wording peer-reviewed from the external links subsection. I have looked at the links under the specific subsection and I find NYU, Princeton and other publications like The Pew Research Center to be peer-reviews. User:Life.temp seems to think non of the articles are peer-reviewed. Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 07:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, it's not a matter of personal opinion. You don't express that you "find to be peer-reviewed." You document it, or not. In this case, not, because you can't. Nothing says any of those articles are peer-reviewed (except you). Get some documentation that they are peer-reviewed, and until then, stop insisting that article make unsupported factual claims. Life.temp (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The Asia section needs something on China, possibly North Korea

China has issues with America as an imperialist trying to "contain" China. Many Chinese are convinced the 1999 bombing of a Chinese embassy in former Yugoslavia was intentional. They are also angry at America's support of Taiwan, Tibet, and criticism of China for human rights violations.

As for North Korea, well, anti-Americanism is their entire raison d'etre... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.91.26.13 (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree. Tibet issue can be added, but one has to be very careful to find NPOV sources that are not POV Dalai Lama or Chinese goverment. Also North Korea is a good idea, but then again finding unbiased sources will be difficult. Igor Berger (talk) 07:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

As criticism

"You're being an anti-abortionist/pro-lifer" -- That term can be used that way too, but that doesn't mean we define "pro-life" as "a critical term used to describe" something "alleged". People often even describe themselves as anti-American. There's nothing alleged or critical about the term itself. It depends on how it's used. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:51, 4 Apr 2008 (UTC)

The article says: "The term itself does not imply a critical attitude based on rational objections but rather a prejudiced system of thought and it is therefore rarely employed as a self-identifier (i.e. "I am anti-American...") as this implies bias. Instead, it is often used as a pejorative by those who object to another individual or group's stance toward the United States or its policies." This article is more like a dictionary entry than an encyclopedia. It is about a word instead of a thing. Anti-American prejudice is different from criticism of the US, so those things should have separate articles. Only if the article is about the term (i.e. this is a dictionary) does it make sense to have one article about all the different things the term denotes.

Usually, the term is used to allege prejudice, as this article indicates. So, usually, it is a political interpretation of some situation. The French simply aren't going to agree that their policies and concerns are fairly described as "anti-Americanism", so this article is culturally biased. Life.temp (talk) 03:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

"is often used as a pejorative" -- yes, often used. A term's often use does not change its definition. You might be able to add that it's "often used in the context of criticism", but to say that it's "a critical term", as you've added, is a far cry from that.

Also I don't even think "often used as a pejorative" belongs in the article. The ref for that is an opinion piece - "Anti-Americanism has become a superstition. Fear, loathing, fury and resentment have combined to produce something that resembles nothing so much as a new form of virulent anti-Semitism." That's the statement that this supposed "fact" comes from. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:45, 5 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Oh and this: "The term itself does not imply a critical attitude based on rational objections but rather a prejudiced system of thought"? Where the hell did this come from? These statements couldn't be any less factual. First of all, there are plenty of people who do consider themselves anti-American based on rational reasoning, and second, anti-Americanism doesn't need to be an identifier. Anti-Americanism is a feeling, not necessarily to be used to say "I am an anti-American" -- sure, that's not a statement often heard, but the article is about a sentiment -- anti-Americanism -- not the human label, "anti-American". This all needs to go, and I'm removing it. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:50, 5 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Please explain what this article is supposed to be about. It is not about a term or word: that is for dictionaries. It is about a thing, and everybody but you seems to agree that thing is a kind of prejudice. Life.temp (talk) 09:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not just about Equazcion, it is about you and your POV. You need to follow the consensus of the editors of this article. Igor Berger (talk) 09:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you possibly explain what you are talking about? What consensus about what? What is my POV? Nobody but Equazcion has suggested deleting that part of the article, so I have no idea what consensus you are talking about. Life.temp (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The part that you tried to insert here that Equazcion deleted, I agree with his edit. I deleted it also, when I reverted your peer-reviewed mass link deletion. You never got a consensus for this edit, but you tried to bring it into the article anyway. Igor Berger (talk) 11:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

If you scroll down, you will see that the main thing he is deleting is the the majority of a paragraph that describes the usage in more detail. Life.temp (talk) 14:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I still fully support his edit. The word ati-American is not prejudice. It is like anti-fascism, anti-zionist, or any other anti ideology. We been through this discussion a number of times already and the consensus is against calling it a prejudice definition. This consensus has been establshed by like 10 editors. They do not need to come to this page every time someone raises this objection. Please, let's move on. Igor Berger (talk) 14:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I can work with you. Please show where "We been through this discussion a number of times already and the consensus is against calling it a prejudice definition. This consensus has been establshed by like 10 editors." If it was the consensus of "like 10 editors" then why did the article say the opposite until I pointed it out? In fact the article still says the oppisite, calling the topic "a complication." I think you are lying. I have no idea what this means: "The word ati-American is not prejudice. It is like anti-fascism, anti-zionist, or any other anti ideology." Many "anti ideologies" descibe prejudice, e.g. anti-Semtism. In any case, you are doubly not making sense, because now you are advocating bold edits without consensus, unless you suddenly declare your new vote to have decided a consensus. Equazcion is making--and reverting to--an edit to the article without consensus. Life.temp (talk) 22:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the last archive, I see one brief discussion involving two editors, one of whom said "I also believe that this new attempted direction of using "prejudice" is quite unnecessary and is bordering on a strawman argument. Anything with anti as a prefix in the title is quite obviously demonstrating a prejudice to whatever it is preceding." (WebHamster 13:18, 6 March 2008) So please explain where this consensus of 10 editors was established. Life.temp (talk) 22:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at a version of the article from December 2006. The deleted text is there. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Anti-Americanism&diff=93863048&oldid=93837093 This text has been in the article for at least a year, maybe longer, and as far as I can tell nobody has ever disputed it. Why are you suddenly declaring a consensus to delete it with virtually no discussion? Life.temp (talk) 22:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

break

Life.temp, I don't need consensus. Not every edit needs a demonstration of consensus. The paragraph in question is poorly sourced. The information it contains is opinion, sourced via an opinion piece. No consensus needs to be demonstrated in order to remove unsourced content. Your only defense thus far has been to say that I have no consensus -- You've yet to actually defend the content or discuss the issue at all. If in 24 hours you still won't discuss this, I'm removing the paragraph again. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:15, 5 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Given that calling something anti-American is an interpretation or opinion, your comment is true of virtually the entire article: "The information it contains is opinion, sourced via an opinion piece." You do need consensus--that the information is wrong, that the source is inappropriate, etc. I agree with you (not Igor) that you can edit without discussion first, but when you delete a long-standing portion of the article (over a year) and are reverted, you shouldn't proclaim consensus doesn't matter. Giving 24-hour ultimatums is rude. Life.temp (talk) 00:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Calling something anti-American might be an opinion, but anti-American itself, as a term, is not. You keep interpreting anti-American in only one of its uses: to call something or someone anti-America; but that's not its only use. The entire article is most certainly not opinion, or else it wouldn't be an article. As you can see, it was recently nominated for deletion, but was kept. It would not have been, had the article not been factual. It's sourced via reliable sources. The source used for the paragraph in question is not reliable. It is an opinion piece. The opinion expressed in the source is not a valid way to back up a statement in an article. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:19, 6 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Please explain how the word "anti-American" has a use other than calling things anti-American. Please explain how any word has a use other than naming things. I don't see where the article was nominated for deletion, and I don't see what that has to do with anything. Saying an article should be deleted has nothing to do with saying it has POV problems. Most of the sources in this article are opinion pieces, just like the one you dislike. All of the Paul Hollander sourtces, for example, are his opinions. You agreed that calling something anti-American is an opinion: Do you agree this article frequently calls, or suggests, that things are anti-American? Life.temp (talk) 03:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Anti-Americanism. I haven't looked at the other sources and I don't know if the article has other POV issues. But this is a POV paragraph and needs to go. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:43, 6 Apr 2008 (UTC)

From that discussion, all by different editors....

"Misplaced Pages has articles for other types of racism such as Anti-Japanese sentiment and Islamophobia, so it should definately have one for Anti-Americanism."

"We have an article on anti-Semitism; should we delete that because people don't agree on what that means?"

"Anti-Americanism is clearly a form of bigory (in my opinion, mainly because hating a group is bigotry)."

The article has prejudice as its primary focus in the minds of most editors, and as far as I can tell, it has been that way a long time. For good reason. The topic of objecting to any US policy would be far too general. Is everybody who objects to the 2nd Ammendment anti-American? According to this article, yes. The act of objecting to any US policy is just far too broad to be a succinct article. Life.temp (talk) 00:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

K. And? Do you have a reliable source that says the term's primary use is as an accusation of prejudice? If so, feel free to add it. If not, the claim stays out of the article. I'm not going to engage you in a debate on the term's use. Let's keep it simple: unsourced info gets removed,sourced info stays. And stop edit warring. You and Igor need to stop reverting each other. The next time it happens I'm going to request a block for both of you. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:16, 7 Apr 2008 (UTC)

The article isn't about the term. That would be a dictionary. This is an encyclopedia. It is about a topic, not a word. The primary topic of this article is, and has been for a long time, anti-American prejudice. You're not addressing the distinction between a dictionary and an encylopedia. The purpose of this article is not to describe all meanings of a term which has many meanings. It is to explain one thing, appropriate for an encyclopeia, that the term refers to. That one thing, in the case of this article, has primarily been anti-American prejudice, (with some discussion of propaganda).

You need to engage in a discussion. You need to work towards consensus. That means not threatening to have people blocked, and using a civil tone. Life.temp (talk) 00:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with threatening a block for edit warring. I would expect the same from someone else if I were edit warring. You need to stop doing it. As for the rest, I'm again not debating this. Statements simply need to be properly sourced using reliable sources. If they are, I won't remove them. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:08, 7 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor, your edit comment keeps referring to consensus. Can you explain why you think there is a consensus on this matter, which is clearly not a matter of agreement here? Life.temp (talk) 01:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Upon furher review, you don't seem to be reading the article carefully. The source you are editing doesn't claim to be documenting the primary usage of the term. It is this: "Advocates of the significance of the term argue, for instance, that Anti-Americanism represents a coherent and dangerous ideological current, comparable to anti-Semitism." In other words, it is just a documentation of what one side of a debate has argued. You've given no reasons for deleting such a thing at all. Life.temp (talk) 01:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

White Mans Burden

The History section makes the claim that Rudyard Kipling's "White Man's Burden" was written in satire and was a written criticism of American Imperialism in the Philipines. This is incorrect. In my knowlege, "White Man's Burden" was not a satire, and the article on it mentions nothing of anti-American reasoning. I have heard of another piece, written in satire, that fits the bill, but the name escapes me. Also, this satire was written by an American (at least as I remember) not as anti-American but as anti-imperialist, and was simply reacting as the U.S. began to follow the trend that had been started in Europe.

It is my suggestion that the mention of the White man's burden be removed, as both it and its satire are not anti-American and therefore will not enhance this article.71.63.153.119 (talk) 03:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read the article The White Man's Burden and pay attention to the words "satirical view". Imperialism by America is a form of anti-Americanism harbored towards America by Philipines, when America invaded and colonized the country. Igor Berger (talk) 03:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Almost all of that section is unsourced or incorrectly sourced POV. Life.temp (talk) 04:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that the article probably only mentioned the poem as a vehicle for including that preexisting supporting cite of a SF Chronicle article which quotes President Bush as saying "America is proud of its part in the great story of the Filipino people," and follows that up with: "In fact, that great story was a tale of American betrayal and bloodshed." The Chronicle article goes on for quite a while in that vein, concluding with:

San Francisco academic Dawn Mabalon, who teaches Asian American history at Stanford University and San Francisco State University, said the attempts to draw parallels between Iraq and the Philippines are "just chilling." "It just goes to show that government leaders would conveniently distort history to make it seem as though the U.S. is the savior rather a colonizer -- an imperial power in its own right," she said. "The U.S. government knows what they did in the Philippines -- and it's counting on the historical amnesia of Filipinos as well as the historical amnesia of Americans to ignore what really happened in the Philippines."

I agree with the comments about the mention of White man's burden and the suggestion that it should be removed. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sourced Philippine-American War as anti-Americanism. Igor Berger (talk) 09:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sourced Kipling's white man's burden. Igor Berger (talk) 09:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The sources you gave have little to do with the topic of this article.

The Atlantic Review link is a list of search results for "anti-Americanism" at that Web zine. There is no series of articles. The term is just a tag used at that political Web zine. Listing search results for a word is a good example of "indiscriminate list of links" -- something Misplaced Pages is not. Life.temp (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point about Atlantic Review. It is not a web enzine, but it makes references to external articles and blogs about it. I will remove the link. Igor Berger (talk) 12:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The entire lead within the history section is POV. The stuff about... "The French Revolution created a new type of anti-American political thought, hostile to the political institutions of the United States...The German poet Nikolaus Lenau encapsulated the Romantic view...With the rise of American industry in the late nineteenth century, intellectual anti-American discourse entered a new form. Mass production, the Taylor system, and the speed of American life and work became a major threat to some intellectuals' view of European life and tradition." ...is POV. It is an essay, and has no place in this article. The stuff about the Rudyard Kipling poem should also go, for the reasons described above. I am increasingly wondering which of the many things "anti-Americanism" refers to this article is about. Life.temp (talk) 12:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I reread the history, and everything written there makes a lot of sense, and it is NPOV, notable and verifiable. Actually that section came for encyclopidia Britanica as many social, political, economic, and historical articles have when Misplaced Pages first started. The history that is written there is relevent to the definition of the article's topic. It shows how the term and the ideology was born. (Read liberalism to see what I am talking about.) What events motivated it. To call Friedrich Nietzsche and other prominant peoples' words that are written in the history introduction as irrelvant weasel words( when you tried to delete the secttion), is not only desrespectable to these people, Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages users, but it is very ignorant on your part as an editor. It is the same as calling them "stupid" Which I consider a personal attack, not on an editor, although editors did add this section in, but on Misplaced Pages as a whole. Please read WP:NPA. Igor Berger (talk) 18:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Revamp this article

I think this article needs to be significantly cut down. The use as a pejorative needs to be almost completely removed, or at least confined to its own section. The rest of the article should be about the self-designation only. Calling things or people anti-American when they don't call themselves that is really just unsourced POV. Any opinion pieces and information derived from them need to be removed. Equazcion •✗/C • 14:15, 9 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, but at the same time, each piece of information to be removed should be brought for discussion to the talk page to get the consensus of the editors envolved. We cannot chop off large chunks of the article, just because one person believes rightly or wrongly that the whole part is poorly sourced or not relevent to this article. That is ownership! Let's examine one part at a time and edit by consensus. Igor Berger (talk) 14:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not happening. Not every change needs a demonstration of consensus. We'll do the chopping where necessary, and if anyone has a problem with it they can bring it up here. Equazcion •✗/C • 14:39, 9 Apr 2008 (UTC)

It is the burden on the editor to show the other editors envolved in the article that a consensus exists for an edit. Yes one can be WP:BOLD and do the edit but if the edit is reverted by an established editor, there should not be edit warring to enforce one's POV. Bring the desired edit to the talk page and get other established article's editors to agree with your edit. Igor Berger (talk) 14:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Removals and rationale

Anti-Americanism means being against America. Criticizing one policy, practice, or person of the US is not being anti-America. "We don't like America" -- that's anti-Americanism. "We don't like imperialism" -- that's not necessarily anti-Americanism. If I tell my friend Bob to stop punching people who disagree with him, it doesn't mean I'm anti-Bob. It means I disapprove of one of his actions. If I say "I don't like Bob", then I'm anti-Bob. Calling anything else anti-Americanism is an unfounded accusation.

I'm outlining the parts (of the history section, for now) that I've removed, along with a summary of my reasoning.

• French revolution was the beginning -- completely unsourced
• Kipling, White Man's Burden, Crosby -- criticism of globalization/imperialism, NOT necessarily America. Just because Crosby didn't want America to conquer new lands doesn't mean he was against America as a whole.
• Rise of industry as a catalyst -- completely unsourced
• Nietzsche and other philosophers' criticisms of work speed/industry in US -- criticizing a trait is not anti-Americanism, as explained above. Some criticisms in this paragraph even spanned multiple countries, yet they weren't considered "anti"-them too.
• Anti-globalization - "neoliberal globalization has magnified the visibility of trade conflicts and decreased job security, and is often attributed to either U.S. or Anglo-American influence" -- This is sourced with an opinion by Chomski. Saying that something is "often attributed to" something else and sourcing that statement with an opinion by one person is both an example of weasel words and synthesis.
• Fall of soviet union as catalyst -- Sourced with opinion pieces that classify certain places/people of being anti-American rather than pointing out people who declare themselves to be anti-American. The sources are opinions anyway, so there should be no question there.

Equazcion •✗/C • 20:19, 9 Apr 2008 (UTC)

If the only acceptable examples are self-identifiers, then all the national examples need to go. I don't see any examples in this article of using it as a self-identifier. I think I agree with you that that is a good test, however. Life.temp (talk) 22:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the national examples yet, that's the only reason I didn't perform any removals there. Much of it probably does need to go, but I'd recommend that if you do that, post your rationale case-by-case as I've done, so that it's not seen as a blind across-the-board removal. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:10, 9 Apr 2008 (UTC)

The more I think about it, the more I don't know what I think about this very problematic article. The problem with restricting it to self-identification is that I've never heard anyone describe their worldview as anti-Americanism. I've heard people declare themselves to be anti-American, but never heard them apply the -ism form to themselves. The -ism form is almost always a pejorative. Either way, the national examples have to go. Either it is a pejorative, in which case this article is attacking those cultures, or it is a self-identifier in which case the examples aren't supported. Life.temp (talk) 08:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what to do here either. An examination of actual anti-Americanism, as in the middle-east kind where people actually say they hate America, is probably all that belongs here. There is something else this article has absorbed, though, and that is the examination of views that are classified as anti-American in a philosophical context. That might be something worth having an article on, but separately, and I have no idea what to name it. If we create something like that, much of the deleted material from here could probably be revived there, with some rewording. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:02, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree to this massive deletion. The rational for it is flowed. By removing most of the references to the anti-Americanism you are taking away the topic's supportive material making the topic poorly stractured, lacking fondation of the theme. If one cannot support the article's architactual integrati there is no anti-Americanism concept. In present stage, I will be nominating the article for AFD, because the article has no relevency in meaning. Igor Berger (talk) 10:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If you read the discussion above, the problem with most of this article is (was) that it classifies things as being anti-American when that's really just an opinion. Most of it was sourced with opinion pieces. Calling someone anti-American, and someone actually saying they are anti-American, are two different things. The opinions that people are anti-American, without them actually saying they're against America, don't belong in the article because they are not factual conclusions. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:51, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

The article now is just a collection of one line statements. It has no core, and it is simply has become just a dictionary definition. It is not encyclopidic and should be deleted. Unless you can provide examples to support the topic and make it whole, there is nothing to talk about. Step back, read it, and you will understand. Igor Berger (talk) 10:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The examples were all unsourced. What's left is the encyclopedic stuff. Everything else was POV. It might seem boring to you now, but I suppose that's how encyclopedias can be sometimes. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:58, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I live in Japan and Japanese are anti-American. Why because Japan is under the shoeheel of American goverment, the constitution is imposed by America on Japan. American soldgiers comite crimes and rape angainst Japanese people. Not many but some. I have trouble getting a taxi at night because I am a white Jewish boy, and they think I am American. Try stopping 5 cabs and none of them will stop. Is this not anti-American? Is this not a fact? Or, you think it is just my opinion! Igor Berger (talk) 11:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that pretty much is just your opinion, for our purposes. You're trying to tell me something should be included in a Misplaced Pages article because you can't get a cab? Come on. Haven't you learned anything about this place yet? Facts need to be sourced. Please stop being ridiculous. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:07, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I still do not agree with your edits. If something was not properly sourced, we should have sourced it not delted it. If something was written in an opinionated matter we should have rewritten it. We have deleted facts, not opinions. The earth is round and revolves around the sun, that is a fact. If you want to believe that the earth is flat, join the flat earth society. Yes, Israel is protected..:) Igor Berger (talk) 11:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You're not making any sense. Statements of opinion can't necessarily be rewritten so that they're factual. If you can provide an example of something I deleted that was factual, please do so. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:16, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I have not looked at all your edits yet, but the parrt about France starting the ideology that you deleted is also sourced at another part of the article. So I just found an additional source. Did you read the article before you started chopping? Or you just unsourced, goodbye. Why don't you try to source something that you deleted? Why don't you see if the opinion has a relevency to a fact and you can rewrite in a factual matter? Deleting is easy, same as destroying, but building is another story! So what was very hurry with this mass deletion? Are we on fire, that we had to do everything in 10 minutes? Igor Berger (talk) 11:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I read everything I deleted, Igor. I mostly deleted things that were POV. I'm not going to respond to your reprimands anymore though or continue this same ridiculous argument with you. When you care to stop repeating yourself and instead get constructive, showing specific examples of things you think should not have been removed, let me know. Equazcion •✗/C • 11:34, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

You are free to go! See were it goes from here. Oh, when you criticizing me I will level some at you as well. This is constructive editing. Or are you beyond reproach? Igor Berger (talk) 11:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Protection requested

To avoid edit warring and being that it is hard to get a consensus with very few editors envolved, I requested a Temporary full-protection. Once other editors come around we can request the protection to be lifted. Igor Berger (talk) 09:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, please withdraw your request for protection. You were the one who was edit warring. Life.temp and I are discussing further edits here before making them right now. If you don't want edit warring to occur then you should simply make sure you don't do it again, rather than requesting protection on the article. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:26, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Let's have an admin decide what should be done. Also I would like to start an WP:EA following WP:DR. I do not want the three of us going in circles as to what should stay and what should go. It is getting very tiresome. Igor Berger (talk) 09:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

There are no circles, Igor. Your request for protection is ridiculous. If you don't edit war there will be no problem. Life.temp and I are discussing possible edits to this page and you, rather than contributing to the discussion, are instead requesting protection. That's not constructive. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:35, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Sorry there is no discussion here! And I was and not now edit warring. I did one edit to the article since we started this thing. That is since Life.temp joined this article. I sourced the French Revolution created anti-Americanism part. That is my only edit that has meaning. The rest were to follow the consesus of this talk page. You want to accuse me of editng warring, you know what to do! Igor Berger (talk) 10:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

There's plenty of discussion here, you're just not contributing to it. If you'd like to discuss something, about the article, feel free to voice any concern you have and I'll be glad to respond to it. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:40, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Igor, if it's hard to get consensus with very few editors involved, then why have you been insisting there is a consensus every time you revert one of my edits? I think you mean, the consensus isn't what you want it to be, so you're hoping some more editors will show up who agree with you. Life.temp (talk) 13:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Because about a month ago there were many editors here and we were working with consesus editing the article. I know it is a bit hard to do it now, because only a few editors are involved. So best is to slow down and do baby steps. This way everyone will come to agreement. Like I advised to you before, there are many articles on Misplaced Pages. Try to contribute to a few more than you are doing now. And we will bring this article to a good shape with time. Slow down! Igor Berger (talk) 13:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

What Is this Article About?

Don't say "anti-Americanism." That word has many different meanings. Which meaning is the subject of this article? Life.temp (talk) 13:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I will tell you what it is not about. It is not about "I am anti-American" There is no such English. Proper English is, "I do not like Americans," "I do not like America," or even stronger, "I hate America!" Now, non of these are anti-Americanism. Now being that you brought the question up, can you answer what you think anti-Americanism is about? Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 15:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Anti-Americanism is a disagreement with some actions, politics, and behavior of American government and its people.(Google it) In extreme cases it can also become an oppositon to some actions, politics, and behavior of American government and its people.

Now you try. Igor Berger (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, your definition makes every person and every society in the world anti-American. It makes George W. Bush anti-American (he disagrees with US policy on Death with Dignity laws, for example). Besides, I didn't ask what the word is about, I asked what this article is about. Words can have many meanings. We don't have one encyclopedia entry for "round" and then try to talk about the musical form and geometric shape in the same article, even though they are described with the same word. They would be discussed in one dictionary entry, but separate encyclopedia entries, because they are different things. Of the things meant by "anti-Americanism" the two that are appropriate for an encyclopedia are 1) the group(s) that self-declare as anti-American or 2) a kind of prejudice. In neither case can you or I or any editors be asserting or implying what is anti-American. That's POV. Life.temp (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I heard this from you before. But that is your POV. Igor Berger (talk) 21:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Is that the end of your effort to find consensus? Life.temp (talk) 14:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Time for WP:TEA

Look what ever edits have been done they been done, and let's not edit war. Were they right or wrong is not important, but we should try to show good faith - build good faith among each other. There have to be comprimises as we go forward. Also please slow down and be considerent of each other's feelings and requests.

The aticle has been protected from editing for one day, so we are not in a rush, actually a longer protection would not be bad. Okay, so the edits User:Equazcion did need to be checked and corrected if possible, if not, we just let each one of them stay status quo. Let's examine them and bring them one at a time to the talk page and see if we can, maybe rewrite them, properly source them, take an opinion and find fact for it. I am sure everyone knows how to Google for information. And yes, we do not want our own opinions. But facts of events documented by authoritative historians, professors, politicians, etc. So If there is something about anti-Americanism in Japan based on what American soldiers have done in Japanese society, we need to find an article describing the event that motivated anti-American sentimate and the writter of the article must clearly state, such event has made Japanese people resent Americans, American goverment, etc.

So we need to agree not to just delete but to build the article. I hope we can build a positive atmoshpere for editing and respect each other. Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Who the hell gutted the whole thing!? Perfectly valid and sourced info has been removed. Marskell (talk) 16:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ha. For some reason I thought it was already the eleventh and made edits. Sorry.

If prior to cutting a sourced section editors had, you know, read the sources they'd have found this on Japan: "Emotions have run high against the U.S. military -- mostly located on the Japanese island of Okinawa -- after the arrest of a U.S. Marine in the alleged rape of a 14-year-old Japanese girl as well as allegations that a U.S. Army employee raped a Filipino woman." If someone had looked at the section in edit mode they'd have found an article from IHT entitled "Road deaths ignite Korean anti-Americanism" buttressing the point wrt to Korea. If some had followed the blue link to the 1995 Okinawa rape they'd have found a clear example of "something about anti-Americanism in Japan based on what American soldiers have done in Japanese society," a fact easily confirmed in news sources.

So sure, let's be careful of sources. But let's not blithely remove material others have already sourced. Marskell (talk) 16:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If prior to criticizing edits editors had, you know, read edit summaries and talk page discussions, they'd know that sources have been read, and it wasn't a mere lack of sources that was the issue. Per the discussion above, the problem is that a mere complaint against what soldiers are doing in your area can not be described as anti-Americanism without being POV. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:31, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

It does not have to be POV, just find a source that disagrees with American politics but it must say why Japanese people are against America. Igor Berger (talk) 20:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, my comments were directed at Marskell. I've already been through this with Igor, so I'm waiting for Marskell to respond before I address anything else. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:49, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Equazcion. I am going to invite a few more editors from project politics so we can have a few more opinions and not find ourselves arguing each other. Igor Berger (talk) 20:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Another editor just did get involved. Stop talking and then maybe we wouldn't be arguing with each other. I directed a comment at Marskell, but surprise surprise you answered it, despite how unfruitful our discussions generally are. The point of getting others involved is to break the cycle, not continue it. Anyway: You'd have to first find a source that says Japanese people are against America in the first place. So far I don't see one. Sourcing a statement like "Jill is anti-Waldbaums" with an article that says she once got harassed by a Waldbaums employee pretty much makes for an unsourced statement. One can follow from the other, but doesn't necessarily. It's always okay to remove unsourced statements from articles. But you can always add them back if you find good sources. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:58, 10 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. Thanks, Igor Berger (talk) 21:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Ty this! Also, you we should try to find sources for all main body content information deleted to restore balance to the article. Igor Berger (talk) 03:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

When sixty thousand Okinawans pour into the street to register "a mere complaint against what soldiers are doing" and demand the US leave the island it would be absurd to deny anti-American sentiment. "The prominent "us versus them" tone of the protest was strengthened by years of resentment over the U.S. military presence on the tropical island." This is AA—a well-publicized, prominent example of it. This section can clearly be improved and sourced further.

Aside from this example, I am curious where consensus was reached to take a flamethrower to the article. Certainly, there was some cruft. Marskell (talk) 11:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"It would absurd to deny..." sounds like your POV talking, Marskell. We don't make these calls ourselves. We require reliable and unbiased sources to make these determinations for us. Did CNN call it anti-Americanism? If not, then you have no basis for saying anything is absurd. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:42, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

There was no concensus at all, an admin should change it back to the un-gutted version then bits can be removed Per Concensus. 12:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Demonstrated consensus is not needed. It was a bold move. Admins don't need to be called in to reverse those. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:42, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Marksel, it is not constructive to call those who disagree with you "absurd." Here's what I find absurd: that you and others who share your views still do not comprehend the objection made here.

What's absurd? I--and most people--find it absurd to deny that Beethoven's 9th Symphony is beautiful. Still, I wouldn't advocate calling it beautiful in an encyclopedia article. Just because it is obvious to everyone--even a consensus--does not mean it belongs in an encyclopedia. Calling something anti-Americanism is the same. They are both POV. Calling something anti-Americanism is worse, however, because it is generally negative and politically charged. Few people will get too upset if Misplaced Pages indulges in a little POV and calls Beethoven's works beautiful. Interpreting political events is a different matter.

Frankly, your example is offensive. The incident you are using as an example of anti- American sentiment began when three marines beat and gang-raped a 12-year-old girl. It ended when the admiral in charge--the official US representative--publicly summed it up as stupid because the van they rented cost more than a whore. Go tell the Japanese that wanting the US to leave after that was just anti-American sentiment.

Again (and again and again), there is built-in cultural bias in the encyclopedia of any language. Do you really think that if Japanese editors were equally represented here, there would be a consensus about this issue? That if French editors were equally represented, there would be a consensus to dismiss French concerns as anti-Americanism?

The other problem is that nobody agrees on what this article is about. Is it about prejudice? About groups that self-declare as anti-American? The dictionary definition we have now makes George W. Bush anti-American, since he opposes some US policies and aspects of the culture. Life.temp (talk) 14:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You are creating a false dilemma, Life temp: implying that because Okinawans may have been justified in taking to the streets over a brutal crime (they certainly were) it can't also be suggestive of anti-Americanism (it certainly was). We aren't here to judge motivations for actions but to reflect what reliable sources say about them. We have sources suggesting actions of soldiers have aggravated anti-Americanism.

The dictionary wording is not perfect, but when we've strayed too far from it it's created problems in the past. The lead and Use of the term still do a decent job of at least illuminating the debates that surround the definition. Marskell (talk) 14:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't remove sourced material. You are reverting sources that clearly and directly describe AA in the two countries. Marskell (talk) 14:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

You actually removed the Europe section, which I'm iffy on. Could we at least have a moratorium on wholesale removal of sections? Marskell (talk) 14:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

A sourced POV is still a POV. Misplaced Pages cannot say "Beethoven is better than Mozart " where is a link to somebody saying that. That is what you and Igor are calling "sourcing" claims of anti-Americanism. Life.temp (talk) 15:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The paragraphs I removed all had the same problem: they were assertions/suggestions that a decline in a favorable/unfavorable opinion poll is a case of anti-Americanism. That's total POV, and barely even supported by the extremely broad dictionary definition. Life.temp (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This article's name is anti-Americanism, so any sourced examples of anti-Americanism that are refered as anti-Americanism by the authoritative authors are not POV but unbiased documentation to the matter at hand. Also, you keep refering to this article as dictionary definition. Why is that? Igor Berger (talk) 15:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

And I don't quite see how the music example is germane. Polling data is widely used to gauge sentiments on issues like this. Pew and Zogby are well-respected. Not that we should only have opinion polls, of course. Marskell (talk) 16:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

I believe that this article is in need of a lot of editing. This has nothing to do with view points, but with the organization/amount of information. I just did a word count at 9:00PM central on the article in two parts. The first part (intro to See Also) had a word count of around 1,355. The Text after that (references and notes) had a count of around 1,735 words.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think that documenting sources should not take up more room than the actual article. Either the sources used are very weak and only worthy of a few words mention, the sources are repetitive, or they are not used to their potential.71.63.153.119 (talk) 02:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The main body sources were just deleted, that is why the article looks out of proportian. Tiny Man with a Giant Head..:) Igor Berger (talk) 02:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The number of words the sources take up compared to the main text is inconsequential. Firstly, the amount of text it takes to describe a source is entirely dependent on the person who originally inserted it, and can be changed. So counting the number of words doesn't tell us much. And, not to mention, even if # of words were a good measure of sources, I wish every article had this "problem". Too many sources? I've never heard anyone complain about that. It can only be a good thing. Sources don't need to be "used to their full potential". Sources need only back up the text, after the fact. Once adding a source, no one needs to worry that it's been "under-used". That's just silly. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:51, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

East Asia

Excelent edit by User: Marskell. May I also suggest to add the recent American incident in Japan to this section. An American services man murdered a Japanese taxi driver, possibly because his credit card was invalid and he did not have the money to pay $180 for the fare. The American Navy was very humble and helpful in investigation, and for the first time, if I am not mistaken, turned over a presumed criminal to Japanese court system for prosecution. This is really a good sign on behalf of American goverment towards Japanese people and its sovereignty. This needs to be sourced, but I do not think it would be a problem, because it has been in the news like crazy for the past few weeks. The last part is my opinion, so no need to include it, unless Chomsky states it..:) Igor Berger (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Public opinion polls

Should we be deleting public opinion polls as was done by User:Life.temp here? Igor Berger (talk) 15:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

We shouldn't be mass removing anything. This is weird. There's not even a pretence of trying to improve the sections. Marskell (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, I didn't say we should delete all opinion polls. I deleted information about polls that misrepresented the polls and/or interpreted the poll results as anti-Americanism. The Pew survey didn't say anything about stereotypes (what I deleted did), nor did it document opposition or hostility to American culture/policy. It did not even focus on the USA, but on Western countries generally. It is not opposition or hostility to think Western culture is violent. I think Western culture is violent. That doesn't make me anti-American. The rest of that paragraph was about attitudes towards Christianity and Jews. It was completely irrelevant and could not be made relevant, because it was based on a poll that has little to do with the topic. Likewise, it is not opposition or hostility for favorable attitudes to decline, but that is how the section on Europe interpreted British poll results. An anti-Americanism article cannot consist of whatever the editors interpret to be anti-Americanism. Life.temp (talk) 16:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

What you did, to be more precise, was cut everything from the section without any attempt to rework or provide your own sources. Marskell (talk) 16:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please stop gutting the article. If you believe something does not apply to the article's topic, is a POV, is not sourced properly, fix the problem - rework it, don't just desecrate other peoples' work. It is desrespectable and an insult to other editors. Misplaced Pages is about sharing knowledge it is not a battel field, where if you do not like or agree with something it must go. Fix it and compromise to build consensus. Igor Berger (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

If something "does not apply to the article's topic, is a POV, is not sourced properly," then removing it is appropriate. And you shouldn't be lecturing anyone on using Misplaced Pages as a "battel field" (sic) nor consensus building. --83.167.192.153 (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you believe this article is not encyclopidic and should be deleted? This article has undergone deletion review of anti-Americanism and it was determined the article is WP:NPOV and a 'keep To consistently argue for the article deletion is disruptive and needs to be avoided. Please read Misplaced Pages:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point. Please familiarize yourself with the article's history so you can help us improve the article productively. Igor Berger (talk) 18:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't determined that the article was NPOV. It was determined that the article shouldn't be deleted. Anonymous is right -- anything irrelevant, not sourced properly, or POV can and should be removed. If anyone wants to find better sources that would make content NPOV, relevant and properly sourced, they can always restore the text afterwards. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:35, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

What I deleted: opinion polls that did not describe themselves as polls of anti-Americanism, did not ask their subjects if they described themselves as anti-Americanism, did not ask if people have opposition or hostility to American culture, people, or policy, and in the case of the poll of Middle Easterners, was not even about the US. I also deleted extraneous information about attitudes of Arabs towards Jews and Christians. I made no effort to find other sources because there were no other sources: I specifically deleted cites of these irrelevant polls. Life.temp (talk) 22:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Split

As I described somewhere above, I've begun a new article, Anti-Americanism in philosophy. This is to restore the deleted content from this article.

Since the deleted content was mostly sourced by philosophical statements about the nature of anti-Americanism and of what can be "considered" or "classified" as anti-Americanism, it makes sense to have an article about that -- the philosophical definition of the term, and what all the various philosophers and other opinionated authors have to say about it.

See the talk page there if you want to help create that article. I've posted a link to an old version of this article that I'm working with in order to restore the deleted content. Thanks. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:04, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I've moved the new article to a better title, Anti-Americanism as a philosophical term. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:17, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I realized this new article could really just be a subsection here, so I merged it back. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:53, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Good work! Igor Berger (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem

This article covers four distinct issues, and I've made an attempt at organizing them. It'll probably take some more work before it's all sorted out:

• Self-admitted Anti-Americanism -- as in, "We hate America"
• Things that look anti-American -- For example, Kipling's "White Man's Burden". No source is given that says this is anti-Americanism. We just see it as "obvious".
• Classification by observers -- this is the philosophical use, whereby someone sees a sentiment and classifies it as anti-American. Think of this as the sourced version of "things that look anti-American", albeit sourced by an opinion piece.
• Criticism of the classification -- this is criticism of the philosophical use. The description of its use as a "pejorative" is an example of this. Basically, it's when one philosopher criticizes another philosopher for applying the label of anti-Americanism as a blanket term.

These were all previously thrown together in a jumbled mess and treated as the same use, which was, I think, the source of much of the conflict here. I'm trying to sort this all out into different sections of the article, as you can see from the changes I've made already. I appreciate any thoughts.

PS: Under this new way of thinking, nothing would actually need to be removed, except for content that falls under the second category -- things that just look anti-american -- since those are unsourced. Everything else can be kept (restored), as long as it's all organized into the right sections and worded the right way. That means all those statements sourced with opinion pieces can be restored, as long as they're worded so as to describe them as opinions of one author, and nothing more. Equazcion •✗/C • 21:53, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if we can agree that Misplaced Pages should only identify self-declarations of anti-Americanism as anti-Americanism. If not, why not? Life.temp (talk) 22:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ew, oh, ew, oh: Geez you're trying to sort it out? By deleting everything you see? By adding no sources of your own? By engaging nothing? Well! Very sorry. Here, I thought you were the same editor I've seen for three years--took a passing fancy to the article and doesn't actually give a shit. I'm happy to know it's all being sorted out by people who provide no references of their own. Really. Blah blah. You'll leave. Marskell (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The "why not" is basically right in front of you -- while academically the argument could be made, most people simply wouldn't accept it. It would be better to describe all sourced uses, while keeping them separate. They also need to be described the right way, as in, "This author says this", rather than "this is generally thought of as...". That should satisfy both sides, I think. We're just summarizing an opinion that an author has stated, not making a decision to characterize something one way or another. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:28, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Misplaced Pages is an encyclopidia. It is not censored. We like America we do not like America has no relevency. Igor Berger (talk) 22:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Bleh, blah. They'll lose interest. Marskell (talk) 22:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Igor, it does have a lot of relevance, since "We don't like America" is the only thing everyone actually agrees is anti-Americanism. It's everything else that's in question. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:38, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

What I meant Misplaced Pages editors and Misplaced Pages are NPOV not about if we like something or do not like it. I may not like GWB but I do not try to delete his article. Igor Berger (talk) 22:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I can't do anything if some editor who is very pissed off at me for some unknown reason is going to revert my efforts, despite the fact that I restored things she complained I deleted. Equazcion •✗/C • 22:45, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, it would be helpful if you could respond to my assessment constructively rather than saying "blah blah". Equazcion •✗/C • 22:57, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

What would really be helpful, sir, is if you could point to the consensus for gutting this article. I would like to see it. I would like the sheet that allowed you to come along and edit without recourse or reason to the edits prior to your appearance... That would be good.

But shit, you don't have that consensus? Of course you don't--you are an out-of-nowhere mf on this article. So keep talking. You'll leave eventually. Marskell (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, I invited Equazcion to help. Hey might have been infulenced by Life.temp to go at it too quickly, but let's assume good faith about his edits. Igor Berger (talk) 23:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There was an edit war going on, and I came and tried to solve it. I don't need to have been here before in order to do that. Repeating that there's no consensus isn't constructive. Right now I'm attempting to restore everything in a way that won't cause the same conflict. If you disagree with my method of doing that, which I've outlined above, could you tell me why? Equazcion •✗/C • 23:11, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what is the best way of doing it, but we need to put back what was taking out, because it supports the whole article. The history part, the philosophy part. With out that the article lacks roots of what is anti-Americanism, what has created this ideology. So think about where to put it and under what header. Of course personal opinions of POV editors do not belong in the article. If something is not sourced properly it can be resourced. But the prior content had and has meaning and relevency to the article. Also pieces like "French do not like McDonalds because they think Americans are fat", is not for this article - it is just crap! Igor Berger (talk) 23:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm still waiting, Marskell. Please discuss this, and if not then don't complain when I revert your removal. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:32, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Relax. He will come around and you can discuss with him which way it is better to go about this. No need to revert nothing. We are not She! Igor Berger (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I most certainly can and will revert if Marskell doesn't discuss this. I'll give it a day or so though. Equazcion •✗/C • 23:50, 11 Apr 2008 (UTC)

What do you want to revert? You want to revert something go do it. Please do not give Ultimatum. We are not at War here, are we? Igor Berger (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Getting back on track, I think Equazcion's earlier proposal solves many problems elegantly: Those who self-declare as anti-American should be called that; those who do not, should not be called that. That disolves the arguments about what words mean, it disolves the arguments about what should be interpreted as anti-American, it disolves the problem of whether anything should be called anti-American or whether the label is inherently an act of interpretation. It provides an avenue to neutral writing on a well-defined topic. Life.temp (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So you are proposing that this article be a collection of quotes of individuals who declare themselves anti-American? So if America commits autracities in some third world countiry and violates that country sovereignty, and the president of that country comes to U.N. assembly and calls George W. Bush The White Devil you would not consider this anti-Americanism, because he did not declare that he is anti-American on the U.N. floor! Am I getting you correctly dudette, or is there more to this? Igor Berger (talk) 02:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

No, Igor, that's not what's been proposed at all. But yes you're right, if US soldiers commit "atrocities" in another country and that country's leader complains about it to the UN, that is not necessarily anti-Americanism. Though if an author has that opinion, we can describe that opinion here. We're just not making any definitive characterizations here. That's the goal. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:25, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

That is a very narrow definiton! You should read other "anti" country articles and see that it is not applied in such matter. Try Anti-Canadianism There is no need to have the author of the source use the word "anti-Americanism" in describing the act. He could say dislike or hostility towards American behaviour, politics, or goverment. Igor Berger (talk) 02:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, those authors' views would still be included in the article; just in the proper place and worded the right way. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:57, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. Japanese people are angry at Americans for American service men rapping and pillaging Okinawa. But I have a problem with Life.temp first day Polemic argument that anti-Americanism is only a dictionary definition and if the article is to be kept and not deleted as per her original request we must source only self-identifiers who say they are anti-American, using the exact word. Like someone who oppresses minorities must call themselves anti-humanrights activist, if not, their abuses are not included in human rights abuse articles. This is nonsens! Igor Berger (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, no need to continue arguing just because of something someone said a while ago. Let's just drop that. We seem to have settled on a solution, as long as Marskell doesn't start throwing fits again. I'll still wait til tomorrow before I revert her though, in case she has any points she'd like to bring up. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:17, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

So what are you proposing? Perceived acts of anti-Americanism behavior section? I mean if Chumsky calls the behavior anti-Americanism that is the sourced authority for all acts as such as he defines. There is no need for the word perceived, because the acts are self referring to the source. Igor Berger (talk) 03:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

No, Chomsky is not the authority on what is and isn't anti-Americanism just 'cause he has an opinion. If he classifies something as anti-American, then we present that as his opinion. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:43, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Okay so do we need to have the section name as percieved anti-Americanism? I do not believe it is necessary! Look at the other anti-country articles and use the same format. Igor Berger (talk) 03:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not concerned with other articles right now. They may have their own problems but we're dealing with this one now. My proposal is a section on anti-Americanism as a philosophical term, not "perceived". I just explained why this is necessary and you seemed to agree, but then you continue on saying a separate section isn't necessary. It might be best if you just wait until I make the changes, Igor, then you can see exactly what my version looks like and discuss your concerns. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:50, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

You did not understand me. I like the philosophical term Scroll up and you will see I said you did a good job after the edit. What I do not want is something like alleged or perceived for the different acts. American servicemen raping Japanese woman in Okinawa, making Japanese people angry at America is not alleged or percived anti-Americanism, it is a fact. Igor Berger (talk) 04:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't consider calling Bush "the white devil" anti-Americanism, although I might consider it anti-Bush. More to the point, why not just report what was said and let the reader decide if it's anti-Americanism? Just because we are editors of a Wiki-encyclopedia doesn't make us experts on interpreting political matters. Life.temp (talk) 11:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Chomsky is an expert in the political and philosophical use of language, as such he easily meets the WP standard to define "Anti-Americanism", what he says on language is Expert opinion not "opinion". 12:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Possible addition

What is of interest regarding the topic of Anti-Americanism about such incidents is that they seem to generate more anti-American feelings than incidents such as (for example) this and many like it generated anti-Japanese feelings. Comments like this upon such things draw reactions like this. I don't want to pick on Japan specifically here, nor do I want to rehash the Comfort women topic here in comparison to rape incidents involving US military personnel. I do have the impression, though, that incidents involving Americans as baddies tend to generate more anti-American reaction than incidents involving other groups as baddies generate anti-their_group reaction. That is the on-topic point of interest in an article about anti-Americanism. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

"rehash the Comfort women topic here in comparison to rape incidents involving US military personnel" Apperantly you do that why you mentioned them. 12:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong article. Bring to Japanese war crimes or something. Igor Berger (talk) 05:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it's the right article, and you bring up a good point; I think at least a few authors will agree that people do tend to look for reasons to badmouth America. This could possibly be added to the article, but only as an opinion, and only if there's a reliable outside source for it. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:52, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

Reasons to badmouth America? Why is that? Give me one example. Yes America is the land of liberty let's badmouth it...Igor Berger (talk) 05:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)You talking about imperialistic Japan. Is Japan now disrespecting other peoples like America is? Current events speak for themselves. If Japan would be doing crap now, the world would talk about it. Igor Berger (talk) 06:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

All anti-country articles are POV

User:Life.temp declares all Misplaced Pages anti-country articles POV, requesting them to be deleted by proposing a new policy. here Igor Berger (talk) 08:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

That is a silly proposal and I don't think it will go anywhere. There is nothing wrong with POV, either, provided all relevant POV's on the subject are given a voice appropriate to their weight within the literature--and that its described using attribution and neutral language. What is is proposing is that this is hard to do (or can't be done?!) and therefore we should not even try. Its tantamount to censoring notable topics. But the good thing is that WP is not censored. POV problem? Then fix it, don't delete whole articles.Giovanni33 (talk) 08:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

So when the Americans set up HUAC what were they thinking of? And are we allowed to mention how Chaplin was thrown out the country for being 'un-American'? Maybe the wikipedia should create its own politically correct reality and exclude what happens out there in the real world? If there is no such thing as Anti-Americanism then the HUAC article should be expunged from the wikipedia. Colin4C (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Igor, I would appreciate it if you didn't publicly lie about what I said. Thanks. Nowhere do I propose deleting anything. Life.temp (talk) 11:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith about each other. Thanks. — Becksguy (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I find it a bit difficult to AGF, being that the SSP & SPA is trying to influence and change Misplaced Pages policy here Igor Berger (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Discrimination

I am wondering why editors (Marksel in particular) are simultaneously arguing that anti-Americanism isn't notably negative while adding a sidebar that marks this article as "Part of a series on discrimination." Please give some examples of incidents of discrimination this article discusses, and then explain how calling them discriminatory is not a POV judgement of the people involved. Life.temp (talk) 12:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I mean, I just argued with all three of the other active editors here--Igor, Equazcion, and Marksel--and ALL of them said I was wrong to think this article is primarily about prejudice. Then Marksel adds a sidebar that says its part of a series that includes.... Racism · Sexism · Ageism Religious intolerance · Xenophobia Ableism · Adultism · Biphobia · Classism Elitism · Ephebiphobia · Gerontophobia Heightism · Heterosexism · Homophobia Lesbophobia · Lookism · Misandry Misogyny · Pediaphobia · Sizeism Transphobia Slavery · Racial profiling · Lynching Hate speech · Hate crime Genocide (examples) · Ethnocide Ethnic cleansing · Pogrom · Race war · Religious persecution · Blood libel · Paternalism Police brutality Aryanism · Hate groups · Ku Klux Klan Neo-Nazism · American Nazi Party South African National Party Supremacism Bigotry · Prejudice · Supremacism Intolerance · Tolerance · Diversity Multiculturalism · Oppression Political correctness Reverse discrimination · Eugenics Racialism

What is this article about???????? Life.temp (talk) 12:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not arguing with your main point, because I pretty much agree with you, but I don't think I ever argued with you that this article wasn't about prejudice. In my mind, it shouldn't necessarily be applied as a blanket term based on our judgment, even if it's not a negative term. Of course, whether or not it's prejudice to call things anti-American is a different story -- that I may have argued with you, but that too is a judgment call, and one I don't think we as editors should be making. Equazcion •✗/C • 12:26, 12 Apr 2008 (UTC)

First, I apologize for being so angry last night. I have gone through this so many times. Enormous talk chatter gets generated over the same things again and again (hence my bleh blahs).

This article is about what our sources describe. That's not the answer you want, but it's the best we have. It would be nice to sit down and thrash out a single definition of our own but it would be practically impossible and come out as original research. There are competing definitions. Sources do discuss AA in terms of negative opinion polls (google "PEW anti-Americanism") and simply cutting those numbers was not helpful. Do some searches and work on the section. Sources do also discuss AA in terms of protest marches, from Tehran to Korea, so there is a place for that here.

Some things can probably be dusted off. Josef Joffee has a five point definition, but I need to dig through back copies of Foreign Affairs to find it. O'Conner also offers up some definitions. Please, try to bring sources to the table. Marskell (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec*2)Having Anti-American idiology is not necessary being prejudice against American people. I do not like and disagree that America commited War Crimes during World War 2 in Japan by firebombing about 70 major cities before dropping 2 nuclear bombs, in the process killing almost 10 million people. That does not make me prejudice against American people. I as a Japanese person tell American people they cannot enter Japan because of what their earlier generations have done, that is being prejudice to American people. Is being anti-American must be a prerequisite to being prejudice? No! Hey I do not like American race, so I will not talk to you. That is prejudice! "One must have had discrimination against them to understand prejudice!" Why does anti-Americanism is in the descrimination project? Because Americans have been prejudice against other people, and by doing so ferment anti-American sentiments from other people against themselves. Do you see the subtilty of this matter? Life.term please stop being prejudice against this article just because you do not agree with the topic. You are discriminating against Misplaced Pages and its core consept of no censorship. Bombing of Tokyo in World War II

Igor Berger (talk) 15:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum for editors to judge whether certain phenomena in the world are politically correct or not. There is a vast literature on anti-Americanism which we should read and utilise here. Anti-Americanism is not a notion invented by wikipedia editors and it is not something which we need to judge. This is an encyclopedia not a place for us to voice our subjective opinions as to whether anti-Americanism or the notion of anti-Americanism should be judged as a good thing or a bad thing. Colin4C (talk) 16:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, we are not censored and did not invent the term Anti-Americanism or Anti-Anything. Igor Berger (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Saying the article is about what our sources describe is not an answer at all. It just begs the question: how do we decide what is a relevant source? My question didn't concern definitions; it concerned topics. The word means many things. Which of those many things shall be our topic? To repeat a previous analogy: the word "round" means many things. Among them, a musical form and a geometric shape. Both may be discussed in the same dictionary entry, but both would not be discussed in the same encyclopedia entry. Same word, different topics. Anti-Americanism means many things. Opposition to US policy is probably too vague and broad to make a good encyclopedia topic, and is very different from hostile prejudice against American people and culture. We just need to pick a topic that is focussed, and be clear about it. Prejudice is more focussed and manageable than the entire dictionary definition, and when I first came to this article that was clearly the focus of the article.

Better yet, we should just follow the guidelines for "identity" and restrict application of the term to self-identified anti-Americans. These guidelines apply here perfectly...

Where there is doubt, aim for neutrality.

• Some terms are considered pejorative, or have negative associations, even if they are quite commonly used. Even though people may use these terms themselves, they may not appreciate being referred to by such terms by others (for example, faggot, nigger, tranny). Note that neutral terminology is not necessarily the most common term — a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28identity%29 Life.temp (talk) 17:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Dude, your argument is polemic and it is endless. It is WP:POINT Igor Berger (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding, Life.temp. A body of literature exists that discusses this term and we must summarize it as best we can. That literature does not restrict itself to people who explicitly self-identify as anti-American and for us to do so would be decidely non-neutral—we would be arbitrating the definition. We have to live with the lack of consensus on definition, not go and decide on our own. It would also be sort of silly. We apply the term bigotry not just to people who walk around with pins saying "I am a bigot." Marskell (talk) 19:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Look we been discussing this per dead horse. What you are proposing will not WP:SNOW. I advice to stop before it escalets Igor Berger (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

What we should be doing is talking less and, again, bringing more sources to the table. Marskell (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Who's this "we" that applies "bigot" to people? A properly neutral encyclopedia? In fact, there is an article on Bigot that describes the thing, includes sources, and does not include its editors opinions on who is a bigot and who is not. A very good example. Life.temp (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

• Marksel: the last major changes you have made have re-focussed this article on prejudice. You added the article to the discrimination category, and you added these aspects to the defintion: "reducing Americans to stereotypes; believing the United States to have an irremediably evil nature; ascribing to the U.S. establishment a vast conspiratorial power aimed at utterly dominating the globe; holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world; and seeking to limit the influence of the United States by destroying it or by cutting oneself and one's society off from its polluting products and practices" (BTW I think "polluting should be in quotes here, or changed to "alleged polluting"). All of this makes the topic something very negative--like bigotry. At the same time, you are defending calling a decline in sentiment polls "anti-American" and you are calling the protests of a child rape as "anti-American." You don't get to have it both ways. If "anti-American" is a neutral description, this article doesn't belong in the discrimination series and it should not feature definitions like "holding the United States responsible for all the evils in the world". If this article is primarily about bigotry, then opinion polls about general sentiment and anger over a gang rape of a child don't qualify.
• Again, this is a very simple and reasonable test of neutrality, and it is already part of Misplaced Pages policy: a term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral Life.temp (talk) 23:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Life.temp, I really would like you to read this and maybe it can help you understand how Misplaced Pages works WP:EQ Igor Berger (talk) 23:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Pro-Americanism

If someone feels America is not properly represented, they are more than welcome to start an article Pro-Americanism and Prejudices against America and Discrimination against America Igor Berger (talk) 17:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

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