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Sourcing Adjudication Board and Expedited sanctions Proposal

There is no opposition ONLY if the sourcing adjudication board were limited to only determining if an editor has engaged in misrepresentation of sources or their content - several editors including myself agree entirely with this part, and would be ready to support such an idea.

However, there is substantial concern that the remainder is too dangerously close to giving the ArbCom, or any body at Misplaced Pages, the power to to rule on content. The replies to this proposal at the workshop indicate 4-5 other independent editors voiced the same concerns I pointed out there. There is no consensus, and probably never will be for this.

It is impossible for any such board to be selected in such a way to have the required level of knowledge and experience to be in a position to issue such findings on whether an editor has used unrealiable or inappropriate sources (this may also fall under the category of whether an editor has otherwise substantially violated any portion of the sourcing policies and guidelines). Indeed, it would no doubt have a disturbing effect on the entire project and its contributors, and will bring Misplaced Pages into disrepute.

The proposal is therefore neither practical and would no doubt compound this project's problems rather than reduce them - it is more problematic than the current system for these reasons, among others that are generally not spoken of. Therefore, the ArbCom is requested to carefully consider the implications and impact of such a proposal being enacted, and to make the right decision by modifying the proposal in the way specified prior to accepting it, or if this is problematic too, to reject/oppose it entirely. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I disagree - provided the SAB was liberal in its use of the magic words "I don't know", "Not sure", and so on, we're safe enough. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

A mere liberal use of "I don't know" and "Not sure" isn't going to be helpful or effective. Misrepresentation of sources alone is ok because it is reasonably precise, in the same way when we look into an editor's conduct here. The remainder is not something that can be (or should be) determined as a matter of authority by any body for Misplaced Pages - unfortunately, their capabilities would be too limited (and their judgement would easily be too subjective) to rightfully make these sort of findings that are essentially on content, which is among the reasons why no such authority exists for content findings. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I understand your objection, then. Isn't the board's purpose to deptermine when sources are being misrepresented or abused? To do that, some judgement on the quality of the sources is necessary, as using a poor-quality source to make grand claims of fact is an abuse of source just as much as lying about its content. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is the very judgement on the quality of sources that is questioned - particularly for subject-matter that is less-known. Such a body is in no way qualified, knowledgable or experienced to make judgements on the quality of sources and whether they are considered reputed, particularly on such subjects, topics, sub-topics etc. that they know nothing about. Identifying an abuse of source is essentially making a ruling on content. I know the type of editors this remedy attempts to target (and I'm pleased that it does, having been involved with a few such editors in a cultural-content dispute in the recent past), but this approach is ineffective and open to more problems than solutions. Wheras, merely checking if a source is being misrepresented is something that is well within such a board's capabilities. This is why there is objection to this proposal overall. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I can see your point, but at the same time, if well-selected and with a cadre of advisers, it could be helpful. I'd suggest using it cautiously at first, of course. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The overall positive of having this sourcing board will outweigh the negative. And let us not forget that, if selected properly, this board will have people on it that will actually know what a good source is and isn't. I don't foresee this dealing with people wanting to use some crappy blog in a BLP (but it may), but mostly with people using academic journals to further extraordinary claims. If the people on the SAB are familiar with academic journals, ie people who work with and around them, they will not have to have any great knowledge about a particular topic because they will know a good or bad source when they see one. Baegis (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no they won't necessarily know what a good source is and isn't in certain situations (I know this having been involved in one in the recent past as I noted above). As it is, the RS noticeboard, among other avenues, deal with these sort of issues, and what is unclear there, is not going to be any different to what is unclear to such a board - and to give them authority to point out the obvious, or worse, if they pretended they do know...I don't think I need to describe how disturbed some are by the proposal. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I am deeply disturbed by the proposal to move what is normally within working consensus, and the discretion of admins reviewing a situation (in cases where sanctions or blocks may be needed), to a ruling board of any sort. We don't need such a body to tell us when the use of sources is dishonest, nor to tell us it's OK to sanction people engaging in such disruption. On that note, I must sharply disagree with some dissent based on concerns about adjudicating "content issues". There's a world of difference between sanctioning users for false citations and intervening for one side or another in a content dispute. Vassyana (talk) 18:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm un-involved in this topic, but such procedures in the academic world usually get involved with who is the greater expert. In this case, where its the relative weight of minor academic sources, and non-academic one, vs. the academic consensus, it's a matter of policy, not factual determination. If the board is academics, i know what they'll say, if it's partly such, they'll never decide. This is a question that needs common sense and balance and compromise, not expertise. DGG (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely agree with that counterpoint. Vassyana (talk) 10:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

My view on this is the same as it has always been. For any controversial article, give a small group of co-operative, productive editors (ie. editors with a good track record, preferably including some that are completely new to the article, as well as some with experience in editing the topic area) a few months peace and quiet to produce a featured-standard article, addressing all aspects of the article (not just the controversial bits), and that alone will be enough to damp down much of the problems. Once sufficient weight of good content has been built up, it is much easier to defend against bad-faith changes, and much easier to spot deceptive changes and deceptive content-sourcing. Extensive organisation of talk pages, with FAQs and explanations, also helps. I believe User:Filll has written an essay about this approach, which worked at (I think) evolution. See User:Filll/essaydraft. Carcharoth (talk) 23:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As good as the idea of building the articles up to withstand the pressure to change might be, getting the articles to that point are going to be difficult at best, impossible at worst. Some of these articles are so far gone that getting them to the level of even a GA is going to take a monumental effort on the hands of several editors. Look at the current homeopathy article. It was a GA before all of this madness ensued. Now, it won't even make that. The sourcing board will help in getting these articles to a respectable level more than any determined group of editors. Baegis (talk) 17:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Dana Ullman

I think a one year topic ban from homeopathy, broadly construed, would be sufficient. If Dana wants help edit SS Edmund Fitzgerald, I very much doubt that would cause a problem. Jehochman 13:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. It's hard to tell as he never has edited anything not directly related to homeopathy or to add promotion of homeopathy, as far as I know. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

In that case the two ideas are equivalent, but the softer one will draw less criticism. Jehochman 15:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

One year *and* probation when the ban ends --Enric Naval (talk) 15:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If he would only get a one year topic ban, allowances need to be made for what would happen when he returns. Chances are, this behavior is going to repeat itself. It already did once, after his first block was overturned for the mentoring. I would say that he should be placed on 1RR (maybe 0RR) for homeopathy articles and must discuss all changes on the talk page first, but those were pretty much the restrictions everyone was operating on during the probation and Dana still managed to cause a disturbance. We can't have him be mentored again, because that won't work. I would just hate to run into this same problem in May of 2009. It's a safe bet that he is not going to see the light and adopt to policies after a one year hiatus on the homeopathy articles if he couldn't do it under the eye of several admins who were watching the probation of the homeopathy articles. Any ideas on that one? Baegis (talk) 17:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite ban from all homeopathy, broadly construed, to be lifted on appeal to arbcom after X months of good editing in other fields? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That's probably a better idea. And the appeal should not happen until at least 12 months have passed. 18 months might be better, but the community might be more comfortable with 12. And since Dana has shown an inability to just drop the stick and back away, the appeals should not be able to happen more than once every few months, or the ArbCom will be badgered endlessly. Baegis (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be a nice idea. Dana should show on other places of the wikipedia that this time he is really going to abide to the policies before letting him back again into Homeopathy, a topic where he has COI. Agree with reasons above. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Past experience shows that if he has access to the talk pages of these articles, people like Dana can still cause substantial disruption. In fact, I think the biggest disruption on Homeopathy and related articles was that Dana and assorted allies (meat puppets and possibly sock puppets) turned the talk pages into toxic environments that had to be frequently archived and drove off all productive contributors. It would not matter if he never edited the mainspace page; by virtue of the fact that he WP:OWNed the talk pages, a substantial disruption followed. --Filll (talk) 23:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, since I think Tim Vickers just accidentally handed him permission to go about recruiting other people to argue his points for him Perhaps the full block is best. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 07:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, there is nothing in the current restrictions that prevent Dana discussing the topic of homeopathy on other users' talkpages. However, suggesting specific edits would not be acceptable under the current restrictions, since this would be editing by proxy. If I'm mistaken in my interpretation of this, please let me know, so I can correct my advice. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom can't rule on content, therefore ArbCom shouldn't be able to create by fiat another group that can

Headline says it all. The proposal to create such a group exceeds the Commitee's mandate, as far as I can tell. -- Kendrick7 02:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

So who can? This is a major problem, to object to what group is proposing a viable solution seems... pedantic. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

See above. There is already a viable solution. Kick all the current editors out and get (good) new ones in. Make the article good enough to withstand the normal pressures, and then let the crowds back (including those holding extreme views). Carcharoth (talk) 07:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Arbcom ought to have somewhere they can go to get a ruling on the more obvious content issues. It can lead to some very stupid decisions in cases otherwise. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

While, as I've pointed out earlier, I think the proposal is well intended, it still undermines the entire Misplaced Pages philosophy, hence (I presume) the opposition by others. It's certainly not a solution to the problem, though, it is a clear attempt. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the proper solution is clearly delineating between content and behavior issues, devolving responsibility on the community. Vassyana (talk) 09:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, though care needs to be taken in determining the exact wording of the approach, it is more of a solution. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

In regards to "who can" -- the community can, and the ArbCom is certainly within its rights as a respected part of the community to recommend the rest of us create a Sourcing Adjudication Committee, or even just one unique to homeopathy. It's not a terrible idea, it may not be a great idea either, but it's a novelty. ArbCom simply isn't chartered to create new parallel institutions, no matter how limited their scope, upon a whim. This needs to be created under the community's auspices. -- Kendrick7 17:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)