Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:22, 3 May 2008

I added it to categories because the Polish one had it in "Antisemitism." I figured Anti-Zionism would be less perjorative and it seems to specifically fit given their view of Israel. Also, for the record, I am mostly a conservative Catholic and to a degree agree that Misplaced Pages has a liberal/secularist bias. However I figured if we're going to have these categories that might be used where appropriate.--T. Anthony (talk) 04:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I know what u mean but look when someone added the category of "Antisemitism" to the Polish article about the NOP :

"15:40 (3:40 pm), 25 lis 2007 - 79.186.171.81" - IP user.

They are adding all over "racism", "Fascism" or even "Nazism" (NOP is anti-socialistic so can't be a Nazi political party but people are uneducated and left-wing propagandists...). I am sure that soon or later someone will remove "Antisemitism" from the article, because NOP doesn't accept any form of "Jewish abbuse". We have big problem on Polish Misplaced Pages with attacks from the left-wing people on the right-wing articles so a lot of changes may occur at the time of long period, that is why we can't mainly create article about the NOP based on Polish Misplaced Pages because we have everyday some attacks from crazy IP users that trying to make NOP to be a nazi or other terrible movement looking organization. Example - "Racism" category occured in the article during the time of almost 3 months before some admin didn't change it. I'm a Roman Catholic and I know what u mean but we can't describe NOP as "Antisemitic Political Party" because NOP doesn't do anything against Polish Jews and to be more specific many of Polish patriotic Jews who gave their live for Poland occurs on the organization "heroes list"... (<- I can give examples for it). NOP is highly against Israel as a country but not a Jews as a people or followers of their religion.

--Greetings ] (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I see. As I said on my talk page I don't know Polish politics much. Going by what's cited it seemed fair to say they're against Israel and active homosexuality, which is all I meant those categories to say. In the case of the homosexual one I don't much care for the name, and I'm not even sure I supported its existence, but I figured it's better on organizations than living people. Still this group is a member of the European National Front and International Third Position which, as I recall, are a bit extremist. By that I mean I think they are traditionally positive on former Nazis like Otto Strasser.--T. Anthony (talk) 06:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

They are against ONLY homosexual propaganda in Poland which is parades, "homosexual books for kids in pre-school", teaching in schools that "homosexuality" is a normal thing. NOP is highly pro-Catholic (Roman Catholic Church) and as a Catholic u know what the Bible says about 2 guys or 2 girls... NOP doesn't care about that what lesbians or gays do in their beds, but will never accept the way how they try to show the people in Poland (90 % are Catholics which in 80 % regularly attending to the mass) "their rights" (constitution and laws in Poland aren't against homosexual people), you know, many Poles (especially the elder one's) doesn't want to see parades what include Boys in skirts, kissing girls and more weird things and as a Catholic so do I. Yes, NOP is a member of the European National Front and International Third Position but focus on this that NOP's ideology is mainly based on Third Positionism so they aren't left (Communism, Nazism) or right (Fascism), they call themselvs as a something "between the Left and the Right". I'm not happy because English version of their site is very poor in detailed informations, Polish version of the site is much better and have more details.

--Greetings ] (talk) 07:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

yeah english wikipedia is very biased and pro-left in many areas, I would like to see wikipedia to be neutral and tell the truth abouth things there is not much anyone can do about it, I don't even try correcting biased stuff to make it neutral - someone will just revert it back. Starzaz (talk) 04:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism

This reverting has to stop. I have provided 5 citations that say this is an anti-Semitic organization, including books printed by the University of Nebraska, the ADL, and a report by the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs . If reverted, there must be a very, very, very good reason. Ostap 19:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason is that we can't include informations from American and Israeli lias. Do you know what is "Anti-semitism" ?! It's what neo-nazi groups do such as bombing Synagouges, killing Jews or similar things. NOP DOESN NOT kill people, destroy Synagougues. Stop playing around with "Jewish proofs". Sites such as "Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs" aren't NPOV because they call every movement who love it country "anti-semitic", "neo-nazi", "ultra-fasci" etc. Enough with propaganda, time for truth !

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not the truth. There is nothing wrong with loving your country. You cannot dismiss published materials as "American and Israeli lias". This is against wikipedia rules. The NOP does vandalize the homes of Jewish people in Poland. How is that not anti-Semitism? Ostap 20:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"The NOP does vandalize the homes of Jewish people in Poland." - This is described as a lie i nPolish Constitution as a lie without strong proofs which can bring u up to 5 years in prison so watch your mouth. Stop kidding, "NOP is destroying Jewish homes" yes sure and NOP is controling Poland... "Love to your country" - Text such as "Ukraine is no Poland" is highly offensive and AGAINST Misplaced Pages rules. To 1939 Ukraine was a Polish land.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you even read this? It says that the PRESIDENT AND PRIME MINISTER OF POLAND apologized for the vandalism. Why would they apologize for something that didn't happen? Ostap 20:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Other side - They DO NOT include any proofs for their lais. As long as they will not show ANY proofs I will never use it as a NPOV information. For being more sarcastic - "...Polish neo-nazi organization NOP" - Did you know that NOP isn't neo-nazi ?! You ask why ? NOP is ANTI-SOCIALISTIC so DOES NOT "like" Socialists and National Socialists. NOP also DOES NOT want to have a leader like in Nazism or faschism because NOP proclaims "the rule of the nation without corrupted leaders". I told you, Jewish sites aren't NPOV.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a Polish site. Ostap 20:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And here Patriotism called Antisemitism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krzyzowiec (talk • contribs) 20:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Significant problem

I provided citations for anti-Semitic incidents. These were from a book published by the University of Nebraska, and materials from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the ADL and an online Polish newspaper. Why were these removed? Claiming that these are "American and Israeli lies" is not a valid reason. Ostap 04:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I am going to re-add the sourced information. Ostap 16:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll remove ALL false text from the article because even on Polish Misplaced Pages we don't have ANY propaganda about the NOP no such bullshit as "nazi salute" or "Mein Kampf citations". I wonder why all people especially those who doesn't want to remember that now their country was a Poland take the BIGGEST part in propaganda about the NOP such as Ostap who is ukrainian (<what is that ?!). --Krzyzowiec (talk) 03:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Are you denying that nazi salutes and Mein Kampf citations are true? Read the citations. Its not propaganda. Ostap 20:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Really ? And what now ?

http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=3832

Polish Court in Strzelce Opolskie described Roman Salute as a patriotic acting which has nothing common to do with the Nazi's Salute. Read the link, I told you that I don't care about opinion of Israeli Organizations as long as they are not in Poland and they make propaganda. Polish law can make a law not israeli nor american organizations.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

nacjonalista.pl? Be serious. What's next, a newsflash from wszechpolak.pl? If the court decision can be confirmed with some reliable source; let's add it where appropriate. But, let me repeat: reliable source.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No offence, learn how to read articles... "gazeta.pl - Z antologii prasy polskojęzycznej".

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 00:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Neautrality and Balance.

Article is strong anti-NOP (which is against of NPOV). It doesn't fit any of Misplaced Pages's NPOV points. Step by step :

Views The manifesto of the National Revival of Poland contains a sentence stating that "Jews will be removed from Poland, and their possessions will be confiscated," taken directly from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/3096/ - Article is strong anti-NOP, warsaw voice is a left wing online service which describw itself as a "neutral" (article about NOP isn't realy neutral). Please, give me the reference from NOP's site or works of NOP's members that "The manifesto of the National Revival of Poland contains a sentence stating that (...) taken directly from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf". References from NOP's official site ?!

The official greeting gesture used in the party is the Nazi-like gesture of the raised arm.

The gesture used in the party is called "Roman salute" not Nazi gesture of the raised arm. NOP use salute which has been used in Poland before Hitler's invasion of Poland by random people and Polish Nationalists :

R. Dmowski's Funeral Video with random people and nationalists who salute

The picture of salute used by Polish Nationalists before the second world war (photo in original version is black and white):

http://pl.wikipedia.org/Grafika:Salut.jpg

The saluting soccer players of Wisla Krakow soccer team before the war :

http://www.onrpodhale.fora.pl/swiat-w-obrazach,7/pilkarze-wisly-krakow-z-salutem-rzymskim-1938r,476.html

The meeting of Polish Falcon trainers in 1937, they do Roman Salute :

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=5MlzVN52Xp0

Above that, courts in Poland stated many times that Polish Nationalists don't do Nazi Salute but Roman Salute, while doing salute Polish Nationalists never say "Heil Hitler" or "Sieg Heil", they say "Great Poland for ever" which has nothing to do with the Nazis. One of the court's end speech (Sry for no English) :

http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=4256&licz=1

"Celem stowarzyszenia jest osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej.

Podczas składania kwiatów pod Pomnikiem Czynu Powstańczego uczynili oni gest pozdrowienia poprzez podniesienie prawej ręki. Geneza tego gestu sięga Cesarstwa Rzymskiego. Był to tzw. „rzymski salut” stosowany podczas powitania cesarza. Gest ten przejęli później włoscy faszyści, a następnie faszyści niemieccy, którzy unosząc w górę prawą dłoń jednocześnie wypowiadali słowa: „Heil Hitler”.

Zgodnie z pkt 5 rozdziału I statutu: „ONR może używać odznak, pieczęci i innych symboli na zasadach określonych w przepisach szczegółowych”. Przepisy te nie regulują jednak kwestii, czy zapis ten odnosi się również do pozdrowienia poprzez podniesienie prawej ręki. Z wyjaśnień oskarżonych wynika, iż omawiany gest nawiązuje do rzymskiego salutu, tradycyjnego pozdrowienia narodowców oraz stanowi gest pozdrowienia ONR. Jednocześnie różni się od gestu wykonywanego przez nazistów. Wykonując ten gest członkowie stowarzyszenia wypowiadają słowa: „Czołem Wielkiej Polsce”.

"Celem stowarzyszenia jest osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej."

"Szczytnymi celami stowarzyszenia było osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej.

Delegacja członków ONR złożyła kwiaty pod Pomnikiem Czynu Powstańczego oddając hołd bohaterom walczącym o polskość Śląska Opolskiego. Wykonany został gest pozdrowienia nawiązujący do „rzymskiego salutu”, stanowiący pozdrowienie członków stowarzyszenia. Wypowiedziane zostały słowa: „Chwała bohaterom”, a nie słowa: „Hail Hitler”.

Przyjęcie założenia, iż oskarżeni propagowali totalitaryzm prowadziłoby do braku spójności i logiki. Z jednej strony należałoby bowiem uznać, że krzewili oni wzorce patriotyczne, a powstańców, którzy walczyli o polskość Śląska Opolskiego uznawali za bohaterów i oddawali im cześć, a z drugiej strony popierali totalitaryzm, którego odmianą był faszyzm, krzewiony przez Adolfa Hitlera.

Zdaniem Sądu oskarżeni nie propagowali totalitaryzmu, gdyż nie upowszechniali, nie szerzyli wiedzy o tym ustroju, jego zasadach, celach i sposobach realizacji. Nie zachęcali do wprowadzenia go w życie poprzez przekonywanie do niego, podkreślanie zalet i przemilczanie wad.

Nie można również przyjąć, że oskarżeni działali z zamiarem bezpośrednim wyrażenia aprobaty dla ustroju totalitarnego. Z ich wyjaśnień wynika jednoznacznie, iż uczyniony gest nie miał nic wspólnego z propagowaniem takiego ustroju państwa.

Mino, iż znacznej części społeczeństwa gest ten kojarzy się z nazizmem, którego Polska była jedną z ofiar, to nie można tracić z pola widzenia jego genezy, o której była mowa wyżej. Dowody przeprowadzone w postępowaniu wskazują, iż oskarżeni odcinali się wyraźnie od niechlubnych dziejów nazistowskich Niemiec. Czcili oni pamięć polskich bohaterów i wyrażali patriotyczne poglądy, iż Śląsk Opolski winien być zawsze polski."

"Okupacja ziem polskich przez nazistowskie Niemcy była wyjątkowo okrutna. Represje dotykały również polskich nacjonalistów, w tym również twórców i działaczy dawnej ONR. Sztandarowym przykładem jest Jan Mosdorf – jeden z sygnatariuszy deklaracji programowej ONR, który został aresztowany w lipcu 1940r. i zesłany do Obozu Auschwitz. Został on rozstrzelany 11 października 1943r. Mając na względzie historię i współczesność trudno przyjąć, że oskarżeni w jakikolwiek sposób pochwalali ustrój panujący w nazistowskich Niemczech.

Oskarżeni wykonując ten gest wypowiedzieli słowa: „Chwała bohaterom”. Niezależnie ile osób je słyszało, wskazują one, iż intencją oskarżonych było oddanie hołdu bohaterom, nie zaś bezczeszczenie ich pamięci.

Sąd dał wiarę opinii w odniesieniu do jej warstwy historycznej, wskazującej na faty, nie podzielił jednak poglądów dotyczących ich oceny i wyprowadzonych wniosków. Należy podkreślić, iż nie można przesądzić o winie i sprawstwie oskarżonych na podstawie domysłów, odczuć większości, skojarzeń. Liczą się bowiem obiektywne fakty, poparte dowodami. Oskarżonym należy udowodnić, iż swoim zachowaniem wyczerpali wszystkie znamiona składające się na opis danego czynu zabronionego. Nasuwające się wątpliwości, których nie można wyeliminować należy rozstrzygnąć na ich korzyść."

Polish nationalist do Roman Salute not Nazi Salute.

In March 2000, in Lodz, Swastikas and the slogan "Jews out!" was spraypainted on the home of Marek Edelman, who was the deputy commander in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and the last of the leaders of the uprising still alive.

No references given that NOP members did it. Secundo, NOP or other Polish Nationalistic organziation (I don't include here Neo-Nazis) will never write anything like that because we are Nationalists and as in Roman Dmowski's (our hero) teachings we have to love our WHOLE NATION - Jews, Catholics, Black/Asian Poles etc. We are not anti-semitic or racistic because other way we will have to be against National Radical teaching what is based on Christian Theology. We strongly support Roman Catholic Church which is against racism and other bad things. NOP/ONR members never attacked Polish/Jews, Muslims, Black Poles or Asians (if yes please, give me reference but from neutral site). Our other hero called Jan Mosdorf (the father of the National Radical Movement) was a Jew who died in Auschwitz.

Read posts of Polish National Radical movement members (in Polish, I can translate) from the biggest Polish Nationalistic forum :

About Holocaust Topic on the forum and "Questions" Topic on the forum, "Why NR can't hate Jews/Black people ?!" - Posts from 40 up.

Show me where in the NOP members posts you have stated that we have to kill Jews.

Criticism about NOP - Yes, POV about NOP - No ! Please, be above the personal beliefes and just look from the NPOV site.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Sadly Polish nationalistic forums fail WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That's it, you fucking pig. You spread your propaganda too much. You made this article your own imagination.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS

Now matter how often info about Chesterton's and Thomas Aquinas' influence on this neo-nazi group, and other similar baloney gets inserted, it does not get referenced according to WP:RS. So it is and will be removed. And you will need damn good WP:RS to reference neo-nazis-freedom-of-speach-fighters BS. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 22:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)