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Revision as of 16:55, 22 August 2005 editLulu of the Lotus-Eaters (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users21,790 edits MONGO and his/her sockpuppets do not have special authority to define project or its members (editors are ENCOURAGED to improve page under VfD too). Revert vanadalism.← Previous edit Revision as of 17:01, 22 August 2005 edit undo81.79.117.98 (talk) ReinstateNext edit →
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'''This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Misplaced Pages's ]]'''<br />
Please vote on and discuss the matter. See ''']''' on the Votes for Deletion page.<br />
You are welcome to edit this article, but please do not blank, merge, or move this article, or remove this notice while the discussion is in progress. For more information, read the ].</div>]
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'''Wikiproject Wikipedians for Decency''' was started on ], 2005 to coordinate and promote standards of decency on Misplaced Pages. This project is intended to coordinate efforts to bring articles to appropriate standards of decency, and to help find alternatives for inappropriate content as defined by Misplaced Pages policy, and Misplaced Pages guidelines. '''Wikiproject Wikipedians for Decency''' was started on ], 2005 to coordinate and promote standards of decency on Misplaced Pages. This project is intended to coordinate efforts to bring articles to appropriate standards of decency, and to help find alternatives for inappropriate content as defined by Misplaced Pages policy, and Misplaced Pages guidelines.


Additionally since relevant sections of Florida Law have been located, standards of decency should be based on existing law in addition to Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines as the Misplaced Pages servers are hosted in Florida, and Florida law is applicable.
"Decency" is a contentious term, but should be judged in light of the USAian ], or similar standards in other jurisdictions. Specifically, if some item of Misplaced Pages content ''taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.'', it is generally preferred to substitute content that is not purely prurient and/or that has encyclopedic value.


Anyone who is interested in contributing, please sign up below and post any ideas and suggestions on the ] page. Also, feel free to edit this page and add any articles that need serious work or that you feel require attention below in the '''Open Tasks''' sections. The '''notice board''' below is to inform members of the project of votes or other current Misplaced Pages events which warrant their attention with regards to this project. Anyone who is interested in contributing, please sign up below and post any ideas and suggestions on the ] page. Also, feel free to edit this page and add any articles that need serious work or that you feel require attention below in the '''Open Tasks''' sections. The '''notice board''' below is to inform members of the project of votes or other current Misplaced Pages events which warrant their attention with regards to this project.
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==Members== ==Members==


*<S>] 22:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)</S> - emeritus, no longer affiliated.
*] 05:15, August 16, 2005 (UTC) *] 05:15, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*] 06:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC) *] 06:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
*] 12:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC) *] 12:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*] 18:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC) (watching and helping as appropriate/available) *] 18:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC) (watching and helping as appropriate/available)
*] 06:39, 17 August 2005 (UTC) - I am highly interested in developing a standard which says there shall be no new standards or censorship imposed on Misplaced Pages, as the entire concept of "decency" is POV on its face. I shall be glad to assist reaching such a goal.
*] 06:48, August 17, 2005 (UTC) - I would like to see a standard which requires an obscene image on every page.
*] 07:44, 17 August 2005 (UTC) - as an observer to any attempt to impose arbitrary standards of 'obscenity' and 'decency' on Misplaced Pages in opposition to ].
*] 17:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC) - You've convinced me! I'm in!.
*]. I think the best way I can contribute is by pretending to be a lawyer and spreading ] about Misplaced Pages being shut down by various government organizations.
*] 22:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC). I'm interested in helping us stay within the law. I'm also interested in making this the best encyclopedia possible for the largest possible number of people. That will require compromises and consensus-building about what is appropriate for an individual situation, and not a blind knee-jerk reaction like "all nudity is bad" or "don't ever let the prudes remove any nudity". *] 22:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC). I'm interested in helping us stay within the law. I'm also interested in making this the best encyclopedia possible for the largest possible number of people. That will require compromises and consensus-building about what is appropriate for an individual situation, and not a blind knee-jerk reaction like "all nudity is bad" or "don't ever let the prudes remove any nudity".
*] - ] 08:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC) Let's remove all pictures of people from Misplaced Pages!
*] 11:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)Can never have enough decency. *] 11:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)Can never have enough decency.
*] (]) Why not I'll join.
*] 15:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC) There is nothing less decent than censorship, and I will make it my goal to make sure this project opposes all censorship.
*] 15:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
* ] 17:37, 2005 August 18 (UTC) Let's rename this project, however, to ].
* ] (]) Why not I'll join.


There is no consensus among the project members for any change to the project. While joining to mock or insult the purpose of the project would be ], users should feel free to join the project based on what it currently says, and are certainly allowed input as to the goals and methods of the project. ] 20:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC) Those that register above in an attempt to mock or insult the purpose of the project do so at risk to their reputation and in violation of ].--] 15:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

==Open Tasks==
=== Determine if Florida/USA location of (some) servers poses genuine liability ===
* Find actual legal opinion about any obscenity/decency prosecution that Misplaced Pages might plausibly face due to the physical location of its servers.
** According to ], a Florida attorney, Misplaced Pages is not threatened by Florida laws.
* Determine '''where''' Misplaced Pages is, in fact, hosted from a legal perpective. Expanded co-hosting by Google, Yahoo, or by mirror sites in various places may affect judicability and standing in case of potential suit against Misplaced Pages.
* Determine whether a change in location of physical servers would avoid legal liabilities, should such be determined to exist with current hosting.

=== Working Standard for Obscenity and Decency in Images ===
*] - a place in the WikiProject namespace for a working standard on decency.
===Develop standards and factors for obscenity===
The standards for obscenity depend on the community. In this case, it is the Wiki community. We should develop factors for consideration specific to the Wiki community in determining whether an image or an article is obscene.
*Base such standards on pre-existing Misplaced Pages suggestion and policy.

Some discussions on the issue:
*
*
*
*
**'''Allegedly''': Under Florida Title XLVI Chapter 847 Section 011, it is a third degree felony to distribute photographs of sexual acts in such a way that they are available to minors. Without an age check, such photos are a felony, and could cause Misplaced Pages to be shut down.
* Obscenity Regulation Under U.S. Federal Law
**'''Allegedly''': Pursuant to recent changes to ] governing enforcement of ], the Misplaced Pages Foundation would, as a secondary producer of 'visual depictions of actual sexually explicit conduct' (engaging in interstate commerce) be required to keep documentation proving that the 'performer' was above 18 years of age at the time of the 'performance', including photocopies of identification card, and make them available to Federal law enforcement on request. There would also need to be a boilerplate ] notice telling where these records are kept on any page where the image was displayed, although that could be done with a template. I think that the documentation and ID storage and presentment requirement is a problem for Misplaced Pages, unless the Foundation thinks it's worth it.

=== Suggest constructive ways to modify the statement of policy ===
Current policies:
*]
*]
*]
*Undefined "no nudity policy" but that does not mean it must be G-rated
**The current undefined "no nudity policy" is more on the lines of "no pornography" policy, the difference being that nudity could be found in an art museum, pornography could not.


==Notice Board== ==Notice Board==
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*:Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept. *:Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept.
*:Status: No votes, orphaned image, was deleted. *:Status: No votes, orphaned image, was deleted.

==Open Tasks==
===Working Standard for Obscenity and Decency in Images===
*] - a place in the WikiProject namespace for a working standard on decency.
===Develop standards and factors for obscenity===
The standards for obscenity depend on the community. In this case, it is the Wiki community. We should develop factors for consideration specific to the Wiki community in determining whether an image or an article is obscene.
*Base such standards on pre-existing Misplaced Pages suggestion and policy, or statements by Misplaced Pages founders such as Jimbo.

Some discussions on the issue:
*
*
* - Jimbo removes an image commenting:
<blockquote>
''This image is completely unacceptable for wikipedia -- I don't even consider this borderline''
</blockquote>
:*Why is it unacceptable? We need to get a statement from Jimbo.
:**I have . I'll report more when I hear back. ] 08:08, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
*
**Under Florida Title XLVI Chapter 847 Section 011, it is a third degree felony to distribute photographs of sexual acts in such a way that they are available to minors. Without an age check, such photos are a felony, and could cause Misplaced Pages to be shut down.
::: This is not correct. The material must be more than just "photographs of sexual acts", it must be "obscene". The definition of obscenity used considers the purpose of the image - if it's there for sexual gratification it's obscene, if it's to educate, explain or inform it's not. Images in the first category are removed from wikipedia anyway as superfluous; if not, they clearly have a useful role in an encyclopedia and hence fall into the latter division. ] 16:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

::::Actually, the Florida law only makes exceptions for artistic, literary, political and scientific purposes, not necessarily just because a picture is intended to "educate, explain or inform" (unless I missed that part). - ] 16:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

:::::Such exceptions must be read into the law under the U.S. Supreme Court's Miller decision. If they are not, the law is unconstitutional. ] ] 17:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

::::::Whoops. Excuse my ignorance, I'm ]. - ] 17:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
* Obscenity Regulation Under U.S. Federal Law
**Pursuant to recent changes to ] governing enforcement of ], the Misplaced Pages Foundation would, as a secondary producer of 'visual depictions of actual sexually explicit conduct' (engaging in interstate commerce) be required to keep documentation proving that the 'performer' was above 18 years of age at the time of the 'performance', including photocopies of identification card, and make them available to Federal law enforcement on request. There would also need to be a boilerplate ] notice telling where these records are kept on any page where the image was displayed, although that could be done with a template. I think that the documentation and ID storage and presentment requirement is a problem for Misplaced Pages, unless the Foundation thinks it's worth it.
:::I'm reposting here some edited information I placed on the latest IFD for Autofellatio.jpg. I'm no lawyer, but I think this needs to be addressed. I'm also not a prude, I just think this may place the Misplaced Pages Project in peril if not addressed. Someone correct me if I am wrong. -] 23:53, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

::::'''''A secondary producer is defined as''' any person who produces, assembles, manufactures, '''publishes''', duplicates, reproduces, or reissues a book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, or other matter intended '''for commercial distribution''' that contains a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct.''

::::While Misplaced Pages does publish (electronically), I don't think it qualifies as a commercial distrbiution (IANAL). Also, according to the article, there are some possible exceptions. That might be worth checking out. --] | a/k/a マイケル | ]/] 00:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

===Suggest constructive ways to modify the statement of policy===
Current policies:
*]
*]
*]
*Undefined "no nudity policy" but that does not mean it must be G-rated
**The current undefined "no nudity policy" is more on the lines of "no pornography" policy, the difference being that nudity could be found in an art museum, pornography could not.

===Responses to those who want no standard or oppose deletion of obscenity===

*Statement: If Wiki cannot conform to all worldwide communities (and it can't), then it should not conform to any of them
:*Responses:
:*You would never apply that to a person's behaviour. It would be an implicit endoresemnt of anarchy. Misplaced Pages is it's own community and is allowed to set its own rules. It already does so in many areas of behaviour. Why not in decency also? ] 17:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
*Statement: There is no concern that Misplaced Pages could become a porn site; there are no plans to turn Misplaced Pages into anything other than an encyclopedia
:*Responses:
*Statement: You believe that these images should not be shown on Misplaced Pages because you think they're 'obscene'. That implies a moral judgement, and is therefore directly in opposition to ], the founding principle of Misplaced Pages
:*Responses:
:*To state that there should be no moral judgements is itself a POV. Is it also POV to say ''No personal attacks''? Or ''no vanity pages''? ] 17:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:01, 22 August 2005

This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Misplaced Pages's deletion policy.
Please vote on and discuss the matter. See this article's entry on the Votes for Deletion page.

You are welcome to edit this article, but please do not blank, merge, or move this article, or remove this notice while the discussion is in progress. For more information, read the Guide to Votes for Deletion.
This article's factual accuracy is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please help to ensure that disputed statements are reliably sourced. (Learn how and when to remove this message)

Wikiproject Wikipedians for Decency was started on August 15th, 2005 to coordinate and promote standards of decency on Misplaced Pages. This project is intended to coordinate efforts to bring articles to appropriate standards of decency, and to help find alternatives for inappropriate content as defined by Misplaced Pages policy, and Misplaced Pages guidelines.

Additionally since relevant sections of Florida Law have been located, standards of decency should be based on existing law in addition to Misplaced Pages policy and guidelines as the Misplaced Pages servers are hosted in Florida, and Florida law is applicable.

Anyone who is interested in contributing, please sign up below and post any ideas and suggestions on the Talk page. Also, feel free to edit this page and add any articles that need serious work or that you feel require attention below in the Open Tasks sections. The notice board below is to inform members of the project of votes or other current Misplaced Pages events which warrant their attention with regards to this project.

Parentage

This Wikiproject has no parents.

Descendant WikiProjects

No descendant WikiProjects have been defined as of yet.

Members

Those that register above in an attempt to mock or insult the purpose of the project do so at risk to their reputation and in violation of WP:POINT.--Hipocrite 15:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Notice Board

This notice board is intended to inform members of the project of votes or other current Misplaced Pages events which warrant their attention with regards to this project. Please do not list articles in need of attention here, but rather votes for deletion, votes for policy change or other current and ongoing events which warrant the immediate attention of the member base of this WikiProject.

Please characterize each notice as either:SEVERE, MODERATE, or MINOR to help aid your fellow WikiProject members to determine the state of the notice.

  • SEVERE - A critical vote over possibly objectionable content. Often these should be cases where it looks like the vote may be towards keeping an image which clearly violates Misplaced Pages Policy or the State Law of Florida.
  • MODERATE - Votes which while not critical involve material that is possibly objectionable and appears to violate Misplaced Pages Policy or the State Law of Florida.
  • MINOR - Questionable whether the content is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, or for votes where the current consensus seems to be for maintaining Misplaced Pages standards for Images and articles.

Please remove notices when votes are closed, or the event is no longer current. Each Sunday, all notices for the week should be consolidated into a single subcategory labeled: Week of:<DAY> <MONTH> - <DAY> <MONTH>, listing the date of the Monday and Sunday of the week as the range.

16 August 2005

  • SEVERE Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion -> August 15th -> Image:autofellatio 2.jpg
    link - The image in question is highly unencyclopedic and overtly depicts a sexual act. It is made obsolete by the illustration in the article.
    Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept.
    Status of the vote as of 07:22, 16 August 2005 (UTC): Delete: 7, Keep: 15.
  • MODERATE Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion -> August 10th -> Image:Vibe.jpg
    link - The image in question is highly unencyclopedic and overtly depicts a sexual act. It is made obsolete by this illustration.
    Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept.
    Status: No votes, but votes may be forth coming as it is cited in the the above mentioned SEVERE notice's discussion.
  • MODERATE Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion -> August 10th -> Image:Handj.jpg
    link - The image in question is highly unencyclopedic and overtly depicts a sexual act. It is made obsolete by this illustration.
    Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept.
    Status: No votes, but votes may be forth coming as it is cited in the the above mentioned SEVERE notice's discussion.
  • MINOR Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion -> August 10th -> Image:Groupshower.jpg
    link - The image in question is highly unencyclopedic and is needlessly sexual.
    Suggested action - vote your conscience as to whether the image should be deleted or kept.
    Status: No votes, orphaned image, was deleted.

Open Tasks

Working Standard for Obscenity and Decency in Images

Develop standards and factors for obscenity

The standards for obscenity depend on the community. In this case, it is the Wiki community. We should develop factors for consideration specific to the Wiki community in determining whether an image or an article is obscene.

  • Base such standards on pre-existing Misplaced Pages suggestion and policy, or statements by Misplaced Pages founders such as Jimbo.

Some discussions on the issue:

This image is completely unacceptable for wikipedia -- I don't even consider this borderline

  • Florida Law on Obscenity
    • Under Florida Title XLVI Chapter 847 Section 011, it is a third degree felony to distribute photographs of sexual acts in such a way that they are available to minors. Without an age check, such photos are a felony, and could cause Misplaced Pages to be shut down.
This is not correct. The material must be more than just "photographs of sexual acts", it must be "obscene". The definition of obscenity used considers the purpose of the image - if it's there for sexual gratification it's obscene, if it's to educate, explain or inform it's not. Images in the first category are removed from wikipedia anyway as superfluous; if not, they clearly have a useful role in an encyclopedia and hence fall into the latter division. PeteVerdon 16:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the Florida law only makes exceptions for artistic, literary, political and scientific purposes, not necessarily just because a picture is intended to "educate, explain or inform" (unless I missed that part). - Haunti 16:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Such exceptions must be read into the law under the U.S. Supreme Court's Miller decision. If they are not, the law is unconstitutional. DES 17:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Whoops. Excuse my ignorance, I'm Canadian. - Haunti 17:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Obscenity Regulation Under U.S. Federal Law
    • Pursuant to recent changes to 28 C.F.R. 75 governing enforcement of 18 U.S.C. 2257, the Misplaced Pages Foundation would, as a secondary producer of 'visual depictions of actual sexually explicit conduct' (engaging in interstate commerce) be required to keep documentation proving that the 'performer' was above 18 years of age at the time of the 'performance', including photocopies of identification card, and make them available to Federal law enforcement on request. There would also need to be a boilerplate 2257 notice telling where these records are kept on any page where the image was displayed, although that could be done with a template. I think that the documentation and ID storage and presentment requirement is a problem for Misplaced Pages, unless the Foundation thinks it's worth it.
I'm reposting here some edited information I placed on the latest IFD for Autofellatio.jpg. I'm no lawyer, but I think this needs to be addressed. I'm also not a prude, I just think this may place the Misplaced Pages Project in peril if not addressed. Someone correct me if I am wrong. -Kwh 23:53, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
A secondary producer is defined as any person who produces, assembles, manufactures, publishes, duplicates, reproduces, or reissues a book, magazine, periodical, film, videotape, or other matter intended for commercial distribution that contains a visual depiction of actual sexually explicit conduct.
While Misplaced Pages does publish (electronically), I don't think it qualifies as a commercial distrbiution (IANAL). Also, according to the article, there are some possible exceptions. That might be worth checking out. --Barista | a/k/a マイケル | T/C 00:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Suggest constructive ways to modify the statement of policy

Current policies:

Responses to those who want no standard or oppose deletion of obscenity

  • Statement: If Wiki cannot conform to all worldwide communities (and it can't), then it should not conform to any of them
  • Responses:
  • You would never apply that to a person's behaviour. It would be an implicit endoresemnt of anarchy. Misplaced Pages is it's own community and is allowed to set its own rules. It already does so in many areas of behaviour. Why not in decency also? DJ Clayworth 17:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Statement: There is no concern that Misplaced Pages could become a porn site; there are no plans to turn Misplaced Pages into anything other than an encyclopedia
  • Responses:
  • Statement: You believe that these images should not be shown on Misplaced Pages because you think they're 'obscene'. That implies a moral judgement, and is therefore directly in opposition to WP:NPOV, the founding principle of Misplaced Pages
Category: