Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:24, 24 August 2005

Hello

Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as probative, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted text borrowed from web sites. For more information, take a look at our policy library. Happy editing! --Cryptic (talk) 20:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are you on about, specifically? To what copyrighted text are you referring? -- 67.182.157.6 12:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Dot-Six

Arbitration being considered against Dot-Six

Arbitration is being discussed as a remedy for disruption of Misplaced Pages by an anonymous editor known as .6 or Dot-Six. The details are in the page Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/DotSix. Robert McClenon 21:10, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

From that page: 6., you should read Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration so that you understand what is being suggested. You might consider taking this issue to Misplaced Pages:Mediation or Misplaced Pages:AMA Requests for Assistance, in order to avoid its going to arbitration. Banno 08:19, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Despite our differences, I am also open to mediation. Would you agree to have this dispute mediated? Rhobite 08:30, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

You mean now jump immediately to the FIFTH STEP (see chart), retain a mediator to, quote, "strive to achieve conciliation through negotiation" in our content dispute? According to policy (see chart) striving to achieve conciliation through negotiation concerning our content dispute should have been STEP ONE, instead of you exercising the nuclear option of resorting to an ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well RfC, shouldn't it? Apologize for so quickly abandoning step one, and cancel that ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well RfC you posted, then we can return to step one and talk about our differences concerning content, certainly. I think you will find me a reasonable person totally in favor of Misplaced Pages policy, consensus decision-making.

Remember, instead of rushing to have straight majority rule, whoever can get out the most votes wins, here in Misplaced Pages content disputes the policy is consensus decision-making (general agreement meeting everyone's needs):

It has been said that true consensus involves "meeting everyone’s needs." Consensus decision-making is intended to deemphasize the role of factions or parties and promote the expression of individual voices. --Consensus_decision-making#Purpose

Could there possibly be a better example of an individual voice than yours truly, --67.182.157.6? Best regards, --67.182.157.6 19:20, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

...<Ad hominem personal attack by Banno deleted. Misplaced Pages:no personal attacks says comment on content, not the contributor]]> Banno 20:58, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

At no stage has a vote been used, or even suggested, as a solution to this problem. ...Banno

The only real "problem" here is dispute resolution concerning various content disputes. Banno should stick to that, or not post anything at all here. Banno is simply trying to change the subject, make the character of his opponent the issue, but that is just ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well. --67.182.157.6 21:44, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

This is absurd. It's like a Monty Python sketch. I have told you many times that I am willing to discuss the dispute privately or mediate through a third party. IRC would be best, e-mail is fine, talk pages are fine. You have ignored every one of my requests, but you continue to complain that we are not attempting "principled negotiation". I would genuinely like to discuss the content of articles with you. Rhobite 01:33, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour? ;-) Banno 08:18, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

If you are really interested in following policy, and discussing the content, not the contibutor, simply drop this ad hominem personal attack, then go to any of the talk pages and dive in. Let's see if we can make consensus decision making really work here. No hard feelings. People get hot under the collar sometimes and we all make mistreaks. 8^) We're only human. Best regards. --67.182.157.6 05:56, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's not within my power to delete the RFC or control anyone else's conduct, but as I've said before I'm willing to give you another chance. So let's start. I have some general questions for you: Should the content of Misplaced Pages's articles always be logically consistent? Even if we are merely describing what someone else believes? There are many irrational points of view in this world. You seem to believe that they should be removed from the encyclopedia. Why? Rhobite 08:55, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

You say, "Well, it's not within my power to delete the RFC." I didn't ask that you delete it, sir.

All you have to do to show good faith is remove your endorsement of it, explaining your reason, that you would prefer to return to honoring the policy of discussing the merits of the particular content, not the character of the contributor, as per Misplaced Pages:no personal attacks. Then we can discuss content of Misplaced Pages all you want, in the various article discussion pages. Fair enough?

For instance, please take a look at the bias currently being editing into the article on epistemology, that "THE MOST INFLUENTIAL WRITING ON KNOWLEDGE IS the Theaetetus account " attributed to Plato. That is clearly ADVOCACY, which is prohibited. See Misplaced Pages:Consensus.

Will I see you over there in talk:epistemology joining me in taking exception to such advocacy? --67.182.157.6 16:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Proposed truce

I pledge to stop commenting on your conduct, and to strike through my endorsement from the RFC, but only under some conditions: That you agree...

1. not to move VfD tags from an article's main page to its talk page,
2. not to remove other users' comments from talk pages,
3. not to remove content from (or attempt to write) policy pages,
4. not to violate the three revert rule,
5. and not to call other users names like "Foolwagon" and "Banana".
6. My last condition is that you sign up for and use a Misplaced Pages account. It is very hard to discuss things with your multitudes of IP addresses.

Optionally, I will also agree to abide by the Misplaced Pages:One-revert rule on philosophy- and truth-related articles, if you do the same. Either one of us may pull out of this agreement at any time.

How does that sound? Rhobite 20:07, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

I will take it under advisement, consult with my people, and get back to you the first part of next week, okay?

Meanwhile, as a show of good faith from each of us, if you will go ahead and strike your endorsement of the RfC, and explain that you agree with the policy that we should be spending our time discussing CONTENT, rather than the character of the CONTRIBUTOR, then I will pledge to try not to accidentally eliminate other editor's comments (due to being too quick on the "save page" button, neglecting to merge my comments properly with those of others), and will try to avoid making typos like Foolwagon for Fuelwagon, and Banana for Banno. Fair enough sir?

I do agree that it is best to discuss the content of an article. However if a user's conduct becomes a problem, we have no choice but to discuss solutions. Please consider the terms above and get back to me. Rhobite 00:55, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for 24 hours for removing the VfD tag from Misplaced Pages:Tyranny of the majority. Rhobite 18:19, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Come come now, It was not removed, as you allege, it was merely moved to the discussion page where it is supposed to be, per Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Wikipedia_namespace, right?

VfD tags are always supposed to be on the article's page. Look at every other article which is listed for deletion. As I said before, I'm done putting up with your games (but I'm still willing to mediate). I find it curious that you continue to promote "principled negotiation", while ignoring all of my requests to resolve this conflict amicably. Rhobite 19:45, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

You insist, "VfD tags are always supposed to be on the article's page." You are mistaken, Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Wikipedia_namespace says it belongs on the discussion page, right?

Also, I resent you characterizing my pointing out why you are mistaken on these various points as "games." That is just more ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well on your part (in place of limiting your comments to content, per policy, you still persist in comenting on the CONTRIBUTOR instead), isn't it?

First of all, the page you refer to is for categories not VfD tags. You were completly wrong in removing it.

Second, can you please stop saying that things are ad hominem. If you have knowledge in the field of logic and correct argument like you say you do, you should be aware that no attacks which I have seen against you have been ad hominem. Rhobite said that he was done putting up with your games. This is a comment on actions, you playing these games, not on your character. However, calling someone names ("Bananas" and "Foolwagon" for instance) most certainly is ad hominem. As is calling someone an obscuranist. I looked through your entire response on the RfC and every time you accuse someone of violating WP:NPA you are incorrect, they are always commenting on your actions. I challenge you to find a single valid personal attack against you, if you do, I will sternly reprimand the user on his talk-page. Deal? gkhan 12:23, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

You say, "The page you refer to is for categories not VfD tags" but the page specifically mentions VfD tags as an example of what it is talking about:

Categories relating to the Misplaced Pages namespace should be added only to the talk page of articles. For example, tags suggesting the article is needs work, or is listed on VfD would be placed on the talk page as they are relevant to editors, not an aid to browsing in the way ordinary categories are. Please use {{wpcat}} on the Category description page to show that it is a Misplaced Pages-namespace category.

So you are mistaken, right?

Arbitration

I have commenced arbitration proceedings against you - see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#DotSix Banno 09:13, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Blanking Vandalism

, , Please stop removing content from Misplaced Pages. It is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.

--Mysidia 17:38, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

And

This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages.

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. Thank you. --Mysidia 17:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Notification

Please stop making test edits to Misplaced Pages. It is considered vandalism, which, under Misplaced Pages policy, can lead to being blocked from editing. If you would like to experiment again, please use the sandbox.

Truth

Hi, your edit(s) on the article mentioned above is(are) considered to be vandalism. Repeated vandalism on Misplaced Pages will result in a ban from further editing. --Veratien 17:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

3RR

DotSix, you have violated the 3RR rule at Truth. I am listing your actions at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. — Asbestos | Talk 17:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Your side had more than three, so to be fair, my side should get just as many as your side.

Apologies, as of this message, you had reverted exactly three times, not over, so there was nothing to report. But the notion of "sides" is irrelevent. 3RR is for individual contributors, not "sides". — Asbestos | Talk 17:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

It's now 4 reverts -- DotSix' reversions for today now reported on 3RR, and a link added to RFAr. Ancheta Wis 19:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

You are not permitted to vandalise Misplaced Pages 3 times in a day. You are not permitted to do so even once. Reverting obvious vandalism (e.g. blanking an article) is allowed as many times as it takes, whether or not that is more than 3. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 19:57, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Nobody blanked anything, moron. Can't you read? It is a redirect to true. 'Truth' is a term derivative of the term, 'true', so a redirect to true makes perfect sense.

You have been blocked for 24 hours for violating the 3RR on Truth. When you are unblocked, please do not revert without reaching a consensus. Carbonite | Talk 23:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is another clear case of tyranny of the majority. Your side got more than three reverts. How long do you obscurantists figure you can continue to get away with such tactics, tactics that are against policy? 67.182.157.6

Excuse me? What is my side? You were aware of the three revert rule and chose to keep revert warring. I waited until there were five or six reverts, so this was well within policy. Carbonite | Talk 23:54, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't stutter, I said "your side." You are siding with the tyrannous majority in this case (which is against policy), aren't you? --67.182.157.6 18:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Due to multiple evasions of the block (the latest being ), the block has been reset. Carbonite | Talk 18:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

So you refuse to discuss the issue, you will just join the crowd and continue to stick to this kind of ad hominem personal attack/poisioning the well, which is against the Misplaced Pages policy, comment on the issue, not the character of your opponent?

Majority Concept

Truth is absolute. I agree. However, in human society, there has to be some way of making decisions. The usual ways to make decisions are either by majority rule, or by some sort of corrupted form of majority rule, or by having a king. If you do not agree that Misplaced Pages can use majority rule for some issues (not all), then please explain who appointed you as king.

Misplaced Pages does have a king. He is a constitutional monarch, and he is usually in favor of majority or super-majority rule, rather than of arbitrary claims to Truth.

Are you the king? If not, then you need to accept the king's parliament. Robert McClenon 01:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Reply to McClingon, point by point

Truth is absolute. I agree.

Did I ever say, "Truth is absolute," or are you just making up quotes like this as you go along now, putting words in my mouth to suit your own agenda?

Are you the king?

This kind of nasty ad hominem/poisoning the well type wisecrack implying that I might think I run things here does not even deserve a reply. I suggest that you read wikipeddia:no personal attacks, then follow policy: limit comment to content, not wisecracks about the contributors.

Let me just say the following about the Misplaced Pages policy on what is the FIRST STEP in resolving CONTENT disputes here in Misplaced Pages:

It appears that those on your side might have the wrong idea about the Misplaced Pages policy on what is the FIRST STEP in resolving content disputes here in Misplaced Pages. It is not "Whichever side can muster the most people gets to control the content of an article, and gets to bully the minority until they give up in disgust and leave" (tyranny of the majority), it is consensus decision-making through principled negotiation in which "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added):

Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Misplaced Pages usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article. Compromising or "splitting the difference" is generally inappropriate if it means departure from generally recognized points of view, both of which need to be included to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.

In consensus decision-making we find, "True consensus involves meeting everyone’s needs (which in the case of Misplaced Pages means appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article). Consensus decision-making is intended to deemphasize the role of factions or parties and promote the expression of individual voices."

See the diference between that and the point of view of those on your side, that tyranny of the majority is okay, that those of the majority point of view should control the content of an article through force of numbers? (See the recent history of truth and talk:truth for example.) --67.182.157.6 20:57, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Your defence against supposed ad hominem arguments itself contains ad hominem attacks on others. What does that tell you, .6? Notice also this bit from Ad hominem: Ad hominem is fallacious when applied to deduction, and not the evidence (or premise) of an argument. Evidence may be doubted or rejected based on the source for reasons of credibility, but to doubt or reject a deduction based on the source is the ad hominem fallacy. Because of your behaviour, you lack credibility. You have failed to convince even one other person that your perspective on truth is even valid. Not one person has defended you in the RfC or the RfA. Will any of the edits you have made on the Wiki be here a week after your departure?

If you want to make a difference to the Wiki, try giving the reasons for your desired changes on the talk page, instead of simply reverting and expecting us to accept your edits. Argue your case. Follow the requests I put forward at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/DotSix#Restitution and I will happily consider your edits. Banno 22:14, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Removing attacks

Ad hominem comments by Sasquatch deleted. Admins should know that the policy is comment on content, not the contributors.

I recommend that you try to learn how to stick to discussion of the issues. Argument ad hominem is just another form of the logical fallacy of trying to create a diversion away from the issues genuinely under discussion. See informal logic.

Now, to be fair, how about announcing in talk:truth that I can't be involved in discussion today because those on your side have blocked me again?

The community already did comment on the content and it went against you, when you decided to enforce your view against consensus anyways, that forced us to take action against you as you went against the policy. And also please point out which of my comments were person attacks. I asked you to cool it (which I think any other here will deem reasonable). Again, don't use sockpuppet IPs and do not try to evade this 3RR block any further. Also, only remove comments that are CLEAR personal attacks. I'm going to be nice and not revert what you did on this talk page but you have been warned. Sasquatch讲看 03:18, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I suggest you read the examples section under no personal attacks and you will see none of your removals remotely fall under those comments. Also Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/AI who has had ArbCom action taken against him for refactoring what him, and only him, saw as personal attacks. If you think anything was a personal attack I suggest you ask someone else to judge it and then let them remove it. Again, this behaviour is not tolerated on Misplaced Pages and I suggest you cease and decist. Sasquatch讲看 03:26, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Fastest revert

Here's a new Wiki game, folks. See who can revert .6 in the shortest time. i just did one after 7 minutes ] - can you beat that? 21:45, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Damn. Rhobite did one in less than a minute earlier . Banno 21:47, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

ad hominem

"Vandal" is just argument _ad hominem_ ....

The point you are trying to make might be slightly more convincing if you had not called me a moron in your edit summary. Perhaps the term ad hominem doesn't mean what you think it does.

This is just another content dispute, like many others....

And like many others, the dispute is between a very marginalized, extreme viewpoint lashing out at an accepted, mainstream viewpoint. Please read our WP:NPOV policy, and I mean really read it from top to bottom. In particular, this part:

Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties....

Func( t, c, e,  ) 01:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

"Vandal" is just argument _ad hominem_ on these obscurantists' part, moron. I assure you I am not a vandal. This is just another content dispute, like many others, and this organized group of obscurantists are set on controlling the content of several related pages, true and truth andknowledge and epistemology included, by force of numbers. When challenged, they mounted their argument _ad hominem_ personal attack instead of honestly dealing with the issues. You seem like you might have the potential to become a useful bright young man. Don't make the mistake of falling for the sophistry of the obscurantists.--67.182.157.6 00:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

WP:3RR

You only get 3 reverts per 24 hour period. Please stop reverting Epistemology. Uncle Ed 23:58, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

1. 23:22, August 16, 2005 BaronLarf blocked "User:67.182.157.6" with an expiry time of 24 hours (3RR on Epistemology; continuing bad behavior. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/DotSix)

To be fair, one side must get just as many reverts as the other side, otherwise we are stuck with tyranny of the majority, which does not comport with Misplaced Pages policy, consensus dispute-resolution, in which the needs of all parties are insured. Revert battles would become a thing of the past, because a tyrannous majority would no longer be able to gang up on the minority and control content by force of numbers. (You do the math.)

Ah, but we're not trying to be fair about our processes. This is not an experiment in democracy. We're trying to be fair about our treatment of various points of view. Your anti-elitism is not welcome here. Try reading Misplaced Pages:POV if you care about fairness. Uncle Ed 18:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Donald, Do You Believe the Sun Exists?

Hey, Donald, do you believe the sun exists? I dare you to give me a clear "Yes" or a "No" answer. (You won't, though, because you are a coward who runs from real debate.) Oh, and how's the weather in Bellingham today? :-) --63.231.15.66 16:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

As I predicted, Donald will not give a "Yes" or "No" answer. He knows either answer will reveal the idiocy of his ideas on belief and knowledge. --Nate Ladd 19:53, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

page protection

I've protected this page since it contains evidence in an ongoing Arbcom dispute. Gamaliel 18:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

deletion of users

Hello, you have asked that user:DotSix, user:Donald R. Alford and user:The Donald to be speedily deleted. They do not meet the criteria for speedy deletion. If you have a problem with those users, take it to WP:RFC or WP:RFM. -- JamesTeterenko 02:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Again, I removed the speedy delete tag from User:Donald R. Alford. Do not continue tagging them as such. If you have a problem with those users, use the links I note above or possibly WP:RFAr. -- JamesTeterenko 06:02, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

If those three user accounts are all mine, as Nate Ladd and company keep on insisting, then isn't it my privilege to request their speedy deletion? And if they are not mine, then obviously they were created by an impostor posing as 67.182.157.6 (see user:Donald R. Alford where the impostor trys to pose as 67.182.157.6 right at the CREATION of the account, 'Donald R. Alford -- DotSix'?) and should therefore be candidates for speedy deletion, at the very latest right after the alleged "arbitration" of the content dispute between Nate Ladd and Company and me - which they have turned into an elaborate argument _ad hominem_/personal attack/poisoning the well campaign - is at an end?? The truth is that I, the real 67.182.157.6, never created a login account ON PRINCIPLE, as I have said before, because Misplaced Pages is supposed to be all about discussion of content, not contributors, a principle so many here in Misplaced Pages can't seem to fathom.--67.182.157.6 07:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't care if you created them or not. They do not meet the speedy deletion criteria. -- JamesTeterenko 07:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

With all due respect, that sounds like a rather arbitrary and capricious ruling, doesn't it? What about what I wrote, above? Doesn't that make sense to you sir? Doesn't a user have the right to request that his login account or accounts be deleted, speedily (at the latest, after any proceedings requiring them is finished with them)? And if they are not mine, then they are candidates for speedy deletion because they are the work of an impostor, right?--67.182.157.6 07:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Non-admin's noticeboard

I have removed your comment from the non-administrator's noticeboard, as it does not involve administrator actions. Thanks. -- BMIComp (talk, HOWS MY DRIVING) 22:05, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

3RR violation

Gamaliel 00:22, 23 August 2005 (UTC)