Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:43, 18 June 2008

Why the article split?

I am just wondering. Was it simply to pull the content people were not arguing about out and put it somewhere? It does not leave very much in the other article. Dalf | Talk 11:21, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Because this part is getting very long. The other article is supposed to talk about Moldovan, the current official language of Moldova and what happend hundreds of years ago is only marginally relevant to that article. bogdan 11:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, seems like a good reason. Sometimes I think people split articles too quickly or for bad reasons. A lot of the best featured articles are quite long. But there does seem to be a good argument for having them seperate. Does the article on ROmanian also link here? I think a line or two mentioning Moldova and a like here (and there) might be worthwhile. Dalf | Talk 11:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I put a link in Romanian language. It should link eventually have a link in the history section, but currently that section has little on the modern history of Romanian language. bogdan 11:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sections added by Bonaparte

I suspect that the large section of this article originally added by Bonaparte is a direct translation from a copyrighted work in Romanian -- he has only one reference for the whole thing, despite the fact that it's paragraphs long. It's also poorly written, and most of it repeats things already written elsewhere in the article using different, less neutral, wording. I think we should remove it entirely, and if not that, it definitely needs a lot of work. --Node 11:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

An observation

In this version of this page, it is possible for a casual reader to get most of the way through the article without realizing that the Moldovan and Romanian languages are basically the same thing. silsor 03:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Why did you delete my addition on Latcu?

I do not understand why Node_ue deleted my text, for it has sources and he can read moldovan. Dpotop 11:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Can he? Alexander 007 07:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I may have fibbed regarding my abilities in the language, but I can certainly read it more or less, even if my writing and speaking may cause laughter and/or tears. Your language is much easier to read than it is to write. The cases, dear God, they are a nightmare. --Node (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

From Washington D.C.

I found an interesting book: The Soviet Empire: a Study in Discrimination and Abuse of Power, prepared by the Legislative Reference Service, Library of Congress, at the request of the Subcommitee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and other Internal Security Laws of the Commitee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, printed for the use of the Commitee on the Judiciary, Commitee Print, 89th Congress, 1st Session, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402, 1965. Among the passages I will quote: pg. 106:

"Linguistic aggression is one of the foremost operational devices used in furthering the Communist goal of Russifying the multinational Soviet state. Briefly, the Soviet political leadership seeks 1) to break down the native linguistic structure within the various non-Russian societies ; 2) to impose the Russian language upon all sectors of Soviet life; 3) to effect a merging of all Soviet peoples based on Russian-Communist norms; and 4) ultimately to create a Communist state, totally unified and commanding the undiluted loyalties from all its citizenry whose system of values derive wholly from Communist ideology."---Alexander 007---06:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

pg. 107:"The implication of Soviet theory is clear that historically languages of the nationalities are doomed; for during the period of transition from socialism to communism measures will be taken, and indeed have already been taken, to accelerate the process of merging the multinational Soviet state into one nation based on the Russian language and Russian culture. Khrushchev made this point fairly clear in his address to the 22d Party Congress when he said that national languages may be used, but their development "must not lead to any accentuation of national barriers; on the contrary, it should lead to a coming together of nations." Khrushcev thus reaffirmed what Soviet theoreticians have been saying for a long time." ---Alexander 007 06:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Here, pg. 111, speaking of the situation in the North Caucasus region alone, not to mention other regions:"In the late 1930s the Soviet regime, pursuing its policy of linguistic fractionalization and national discrimination, invented 13 literary languages; imposed the Cyrillic alphabet;..."---Alexander 007 06:55, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Does it mention Romanian? --Candide, or Optimism 09:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The book is a slim report running only to 177 pages (not counting appendices and the index); the section on the Soviet linguistic policies does not appear to have a section on Romanian in Moldova; maybe I will write to them and ask them for literature on the matter. Alexander 007 09:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

In Appendix A of course it lists Moldovans as an ethnic group speaking Romanian (pg. 179). Alexander 007 09:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's more, pg. 117:"Measures have been taken in Lithuania, similar to those already accomplished in the Moslem East, to replace the Latin alphabet with a new "Lithuanian" type of printing whose characters are similar to or identical with the Russian Cyrillic. The new script, designed by the Moscow Experimental-Scientific Polygraphic Institute, is expected to be introduced in 1965. Ostensibly, the "scientific" and "medical" arguments for the change are based on the unsuitability of the Lithuanian alphabet, particularly its "negative effect on the nervous system and the eyesight". The real political objective motivating the change however, is the desire to create more favorable conditions for assimilation." ---Alexander 007 10:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that these cock-sucking Soviet scum were just interested in exploiting and fucking people over. And the actions of these scumbags lives on: in the cock-sucking, shit-faced, shit-reeking edits of some editors around here. I'll kill and piss in the mouth of anyone who supports Soviet scum, and furthermore support their murder in public. Alexander 007 13:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

If I didn't know you're such a womanizer, I'd have said that the verbal violence is a syndrome of having no date on St. Valentine. :-) bogdan 23:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

To: Romanizators and Originalists

(copied from archives of Talk:Moldovan language), since this section is relevant to this sub-article). `'mikka (t) 00:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Romanizators: И.О. Дическу-Дик, А.П. Дымбул, А.А. Залик, А.А. Николау, Н.Г. Плоештяну, Е.З. Арборе-Ралли, Е.И. Багров, В.П. Попович, Г.И. Старый
• Originalists: И.И. Бадеев, Г.И. Бучушкан, Л.А. Мадан, И.А. Малай, И.В. Очинский

AFAIK almost all of them were repressed. Are their names remembered? mikka (t) 07:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

What are the original words for these terms? Romanizators just sounds horrible, and I would prefer romanisers. I ask about originalists too, as there might be a better English word for them. --Gareth Hughes 23:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I have honestly never heard of these terms before I read them here. I also find it very hard to believe that in Stalin's Soviet Union and even before and after, people actually could afford to take independent stances on something like this and not expect to be murdered, sentenced to a GULAG or declared insaine (a practice that was very common in the USSR). In the USSR, there was very little room for independent thinking or research. Everything came from the top and was extensively regulated. Therefore, I think that these waves of Cyrillic script and then Latin script and then Cyrillic script, reflected rather the new intentions or policies of the top leadership, rather then the so called Romanizators and Originalizators or whatever they are called here. In fact, I even doubt that these movements existed at all. If there is a refference to them in Soviet literature or sources, then first of all anything Soviet should be analyzed carefully and secondly one should keep in mind that these terms may be used by Soviets in order to give off the impression that an actual Originalist movement existed that wanted a sepparate Moldovan language. Constantzeanu 00:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The biggest problem with the article is probably the fact that it's too big, make it smaller, make it express the main idea: it's official language in moldova as noted in constitution, it's written in latin script, it's considered by the majority to be identical to Romanian. I don't see how the history of languages in moldova made it into the article about "moldovan" language, move it to history of moldova or something :) When it will be smaller, there will be less differences and easier to solve them. Just a tag

I agree but a little history is sometimes useful, because it explains how we ended up with something called "moldovan". Again like AdiJapan said, this article is not really about a language, rather about the name of a language( very similar to the Flemish case)Constantzeanu 00:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

These terms are taken by me from a Russian article. Russian terms: румынизаторы, самобытники; the translation, I confess, is mine. "Romanizer" is not the same as "Romanizator": the latter one is the one who supports Romanization. "Самобытник" is from "samobytny", the word means "original", "genuine", in the contexts of indigenous and folk cultures. "Самобытник" was a pretty common word of the time, but it fell into disuse in modern Russian. Therefore I belive the author didn't "invent" the word. I no longer have the artile (Галущенко О. Борьба между румынизаторами и самобытниками в Молдавской АССР (20-е годы), Ежегодный исторический альманах Приднестровья. - 2002. - № 6. - С. 61 - 71. ), but here is a link to another one, of the same author:(in Russian).

You may want to recognize these names:

• Romanizators: И.О. Дическу-Дик, А.П. Дымбул, А.А. Залик, А.А. Николау, Н.Г. Плоештяну, Е.З. Арборе-Ралли, Е.И. Багров, В.П. Попович, Г.И. Старый
• Originalists: И.И. Бадеев, Г.И. Бучушкан, Л.А. Мадан, И.А. Малай, И.В. Очинский

Constantzeanu: as to "find it very hard to believe", you probably have to practice more. You will be surprized. Still, you are partially right. Nearly all people from both lists eventually landed in gulag. mikka (t) 02:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

How about "Romanianisers"?

And for those here who can't read Cyrillic, translits of the names into modern Moldovn latin.

Romanizators: "I.O. Dicescu-Dic, A.P. Dîmbul, A.A. Zalic, A.A. Nicolau, N.G. Ploieşteanu, E.Z. Arbore-Ralli, E.I. Bagrov, V.P. Popovici, G.I. Starîi"

Originalists: "I.I. Badeiev, G.I. Buciuşcan, L.A. Madan, I.A. Malai, I.V. Ocinschii". --Node 07:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, only now I paid an attention that the author is from Transnistria, and I may easily guess how it will be percieved here. Anyway, you have names. You may find more names from the provided link and find yourself how these people called themselves and what were their positions. mikka (t) 02:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Russian in Moldova

"In 2002, the government of Moldova gave the Russian language the same privileges as Moldovan. " I am not sure what this statement is supposed to mean. The Communist Party wanted to make Russian co-official, but that was never realized in the face of continuous protests, so Russian cannot possibly have the same priveleges as Romanian. TSO1D 01:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Politically

"Politically called" is bad English and also it's not supported by references. Alæxis_¿question? 10:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh really? You haven't read the full article then.--Tones benefit 13:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Another form was proposed--Tones benefit 13:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

ok, but you still have to find source for this. Alæxis_¿question? 16:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Newest changes

Thanks Illythr... the fact remains that a lot of that info was added by Bonaparte, and I know in other articles similar text was often translated verbatim from a source, which is inappropriate without quotations. It would be nice if we could find the sources he cited to see how much the text relies on them. --Node (talk) 05:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, by the looks of it, all of Bonny's additions to this article were reverted. Some of the sources used are clearly Romanian (perhaps it's the #3 one everywhere?), but this article is slowly getting into shape (it's got a long way to go yet,though). There is a redundancy in the Phases chapter which I am unsure how to integrate intoo the rest of the text... --Illythr (talk) 22:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Some sources

Besides Descriptio Moldaviae, just really quickly, here are some additianal ones:

• http://feb-web.ru/FEB/LITENC/ENCYCLOP/le7/le7-4161.htm
• http://www.diclib.com/cgi-bin/d1.cgi?l=ru&base=bse&page=showid&id=44721
• http://bse.sci-lib.com/article077541.html
• http://www2.unil.ch/slav/ling/textes/Mixalchi51.html
• http://militera.lib.ru/common/show/05_30.html
• http://www.nm.md/daily/article/2002/01/18/0101.html
• http://www.ap7.ru/iskusstvo_znat_budushchee/_god._vospominanija_o_budushchem/glava_tretja_strany_sng_rjadom_s_rossiej_i_vdali_ot_nee._/_._moldavija._uterennaja_chast_kogda_to_edinogo_tselogo.html
• http://www.photo.md/news_info.php?news_id=1040&lang=rus

--Moldopodo 10:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)